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What Game Were They Watching? (1 Viewer)

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David Yudkin

Footballguy
HERE is a link to some amusing emails from distraught Steelers fans.

Here's a couple that made me wonder . . .

"Reading your article and then looking at the stats just don't add up. Your article wouldn't give any reader a clue that Pittsburgh dominated every aspect of the game except the final score. New England's offense couldn't execute but didn't make any big mistakes, which is what led to the victory. Had Pittsburgh not had any interceptions like New England, it would be going to the Super Bowl. You made it sound like last week's Colts blowout."

"Before one makes such statements as to New England crushing the Steelers, one should review the overall stats. With the exception of turnovers, which were a gift and enabled the Patriots to win, it wasn't reflected in the stats. I wonder why you didn't mention that in your one-sided article. Steelers fans know who the best team was that day. "

 
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Evilgrin 72

Distributor of Pain
LoL at anybody thinking the rankings that footballguys spit out or that the draft dumbinator won their leagues because of this site David. heh You all take yourselves way too seriously. Get a clue. Maybe it was the year of the guppie but.......... :wall:

 
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David Yudkin

Footballguy
LoL at anybody thinking the rankings the footballguys spit out or the draft dumbinator thinking that they won their leagues because of this site David. heh You all take yourselves way too seriously. Get a clue. Maybe it was the year of the guppie but.......... :wall:
??? :loco: Does this have anything at all to do with some people thinking the Steelers DOMINATED the Patriots?
 

Evilgrin 72

Distributor of Pain
No it's about arrogance and the thought that staff members think they can spew whatever they spew on fans of teams. I'm not a Pittsburg fan but who cares. I don't think I can renew my membership after that idiototic non thought out submission. If you can explain why you just beat up on beat up fans I may reconsider but I doubt it.Edit to add: any body want to buy a three digit number?

 
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David Yudkin

Footballguy
No it's about arrogance and the thought that staff members think they can spew whatever they spew on fans of teams. I'm not a Pittsburg fan but who cares. I don't think I can renew my membership after that idiototic non thought out submission. If you can explain why you just beat up on beat up fans I may reconsider but I doubt it.Edit to add: any body want to buy a three digit number?
I was not out to beat up anyone, only to point out how some people can have such diverse views of a game that really didn't appear to many people to be all that close a game.Had Rams fans written posts/emails saying that the Falcons really didn't do much and were dominated by the Rams the week before, I would have pointed that out as "curiously odd" as well.Yahoo! posted those emails . . . would that mean people should boycott their site?As for your other comments, I am not involved in any of the items that some may use (draft dominator, rankings, weekly cheetsheets) to help win a league. So if you have an issue with those, you're talking to the wrong guy.Anyone else find this post or content so objectionable that it merits abandoning the website and selling your member number? If so, my apologies, I had no idea it would be so inflamatory . . .
 

Evilgrin 72

Distributor of Pain
Lost us how? A staff member just beat up on fans of football, I retaliated with a beat down of footballguys rankings and their draftdumbinator, what don't you get? Me, I'm just a guppie that won all of my pay leagues totally dismissing what this site posted for rankings and totally going against the dumbinator. I haven't made a thread ripping on the site. Why would a staff member post a thread ripping on fans. They were both wrong. I don't care but I didn't post a stupid thread. Just a response. What David has to say for himself will make the difference weather I renew or not. .....still waiting

 

Evilgrin 72

Distributor of Pain
Whatever, lets kick a dead horse while we're at it. G'nightI think I'll shine up my trophy from antsports, the WCOFF MOCKERS league one, and then beg the Huddle to let me come back even though I left for what I thought was a classier site. Good bye

 
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Aaron Rudnicki

Keep Walking™
Staff member
Lost us how? A staff member just beat up on fans of football, I retaliated with a beat down of footballguys rankings and their draftdumbinator, what don't you get? Me, I'm just a guppie that won all of my pay leagues totally dismissing what this site posted for rankings and totally going against the dumbinator. I haven't made a thread ripping on the site. Why would a staff member post a thread ripping on fans. They were both wrong. I don't care but I didn't post a stupid thread. Just a response. What David has to say for himself will make the difference weather I renew or not. .....still waiting
He posted a LINK and some ACTUAL emails that were posted on another site. How is that "beating up" on anyone?In any event, I'm sure your contributions to the board will be missed by many if you decide to leave over something like this.
 

Michael Brown

Footballguy
From now on David, you can use a disclaimer:"The opinions presented in this link do not represent the opinions or thoughts of Footballguys.com nor any of its subsidiaries."

 

SeniorVBDStudent

Footballguy
Lost us how? A staff member just beat up on fans of football, I retaliated with a beat down of footballguys rankings and their draftdumbinator, what don't you get? Me, I'm just a guppie that won all of my pay leagues totally dismissing what this site posted for rankings and totally going against the dumbinator. I haven't made a thread ripping on the site. Why would a staff member post a thread ripping on fans. They were both wrong. I don't care but I didn't post a stupid thread. Just a response. What David has to say for himself will make the difference weather I renew or not. .....still waiting
Nobody likes a nasty drunk. :thumbdown:
 

Jason Wood

Zoo York
Whatever, lets kick a dead horse while we're at it. G'nightI think I'll shine up my trophy from antsports, the WCOFF MOCKERS league one, and then beg the Huddle to let me come back even though I left for what I thought was a classier site. Good bye
Hey Codfather,Just curious, if our rankings and advice are so completely useless, including the Draft "Dumb"inator as you so quick-wittedly coined our best-in-class draft app, why would you even consider re-subscribing in the first place?Honestly, I'm hopeful that something was amiss last night and now cooler heads prevail, but if you honestly think a) David was being arrogant (beyond what ANY fan on this board does after a big win) or b) Footballguys has limited utility and can't help you win your leagues, it DEFINITELY sounds like our site may no longer be the place for you.Best of luck in 2005 and beyond.Jason
 

Macdaddy_2004

Footballguy
With the exception of Turnovers I don't think either team dominated the otherThis game was hardly anything close to one team dominating the other. New England won fair and square but also got lucky with 4 turnovers.

 

Mr. Pink

Footballguy
Oh there you are, Mac. I was starting to get worried.As for DG, as we bid adieu I wish you the best of luck in all your future endeavors.EDIT TO ADD: :rolleyes:

 
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The Commish

Footballguy
Lost us how? A staff member just beat up on fans of football, I retaliated with a beat down of footballguys rankings and their draftdumbinator, what don't you get? Me, I'm just a guppie that won all of my pay leagues totally dismissing what this site posted for rankings and totally going against the dumbinator. I haven't made a thread ripping on the site. Why would a staff member post a thread ripping on fans. They were both wrong. I don't care but I didn't post a stupid thread. Just a response. What David has to say for himself will make the difference weather I renew or not. .....still waiting
It is now CLEAR to me that "Da Codfather" is WAY beyond his years in wisdom. Why do you even subject othrs to having to play you in fantasy football? It seems to be a cruel, cruel joke. Or is the joke on you?? You said you did everything OPPOSITE of the "dumbinator", correct? So you really DID use it to win all your leagues. You used it as a measuring stick of what not to do. Though I don't believe you, the self incremination is pretty amusing to me.I don't understand why you get so bent out of shape with the guys here. They simply posted material from another site. Seems to me that the truth can really cut deep. The Steeler offense DIDN'T execute. The Patriot defense did. You can use all the "if they only....." or "take away the turnovers and...." excuses you want. The bottom line is the Patriots OWNED the Steelers on Sunday. Don't be such a soar loser...good grief! :thumbdown: :cry:
 

beefcake

Autobot
i suppose u could argue if ben didnt turn over any of the 3 interceptions, the defense could have held on a bit longer, but u might as well argue that they run deuce and bus for 200 yards and hang on for 40 minutes, yada yada yada.let er go

 

fred_1_15301

Footballguy
HERE is a link to some amusing emails from distraught Steelers fans.

Here's a couple that made me wonder . . .

"Reading your article and then looking at the stats just don't add up. Your article wouldn't give any reader a clue that Pittsburgh dominated every aspect of the game except the final score. New England's offense couldn't execute but didn't make any big mistakes, which is what led to the victory. Had Pittsburgh not had any interceptions like New England, it would be going to the Super Bowl. You made it sound like last week's Colts blowout."

"Before one makes such statements as to New England crushing the Steelers, one should review the overall stats. With the exception of turnovers, which were a gift and enabled the Patriots to win, it wasn't reflected in the stats. I wonder why you didn't mention that in your one-sided article. Steelers fans know who the best team was that day. "
I can assure you that for the most part Steelers fans concede that the better team won that game. Even if they had lost 51-0, there would be fans saying that they weren't outplayed. Every team has fans like that (including the Patriots).
 

2190

Footballguy
I think he is still bitter about Footballguys submitting a "tough matchup" for Tom Brady and a "neutral" matchup for Ben Rothliesberger. He used Rothliesberger in his Playoff Pool and got crushed.The boards on here are great but why would I listen to fantasy advice from a bunch of staff members who are so blatantly biased. When you make submissions like the one mentioned above you paint yourselves as fans like anyone else with bias. Not worth listening to.

 
By no means was Pitt dominated overall...they are a great team that should be looking forward to next year. However, their short yardage game was supposedly a strength, and that was taken away pretty convincingly. The 4th and 1 early in the game and the goal line stop in the 3rd quarter were key plays that weren’t converted and could have changed the course of the game. Would they have won...probably not, but it takes some confidence out of a team when they can’t convert one yard or have to settle for a FG. The reason I think that they still wouldnt have won that game was due to the Pitt 2ndry, an area of weakness IMO, was exploited on a few occasions and cost them dearly. I also think most reasonable Pitt fans understand the reasons for losing falls squarely on their team. For some of these Pitt fans to blame anyone else is just blind homerism and just as stupid as blaming David for pointing it out.

 

Reaper

Footballguy
why would I listen to fantasy advice from a bunch of staff members who are so blatantly biased.
I think that's all part of the FUN... We ARE all fans of the game and fans of particular teams... But, I think for the most part this is a place where many of us play up the biased stuff (whiny tools) for fun but, most of the time we're able to step back and analyze the players and games from an outside point of view....It's one of the reasons I come here and love this place - On the other boards I posted on, the same ol BS occurred every time - Miami fans and Jet fans battled forever and the bottom line was no one would give an ounce of credit to the other team and on the other side, every little negative thing was blown way out of proportion and I got sick of it..... And none of that TRULY biased talk was productive at all when it comes to Really analyzing the NFL and FF and formulating opinions for the upcoming season.But, yeah, this game of Fantasy Football is what it is - I don't look at staff member as 'Experts" anymore than many of the posters - What it comes down to is a place to get some other ideas and GUIDES and then make your own decision.... i think what the staff members have excelled at is Expressing their opinions and dedicating time to the sport.. This site has done a real good job at giving those people who write well and have a good grasp of the game a podium to throw their opinions out there FOR DISCUSSION..... It's ALL opinions and projections....How can someone call the Draft Dominator "DUMB"???????? It's tool that can be used in many ways - Even if you use it just to record and keep track of your draft -It's FAR from ehhhhhh "dumb".... And really it works based on PROJECTIONS - YOUR projections if you want or take someone elses, your own, then it's even better - But "Dumb"????? That thing ROCKS!!!!!Hey, I consider myself as good a FF player as there is on these boards - But, I still have tremndous respect for this place and the Collective opinions and debates that take place that HELP TO FORMULATE (and many times alter) MY OWN OPINION.....This site is a tool - Use it (or don't) but, it all comes down to your own decisions.BTW - The Jets "Were really the best team on the field Vs Pitt" :rotflmao: :boxing:
 
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Steelers4Life

Footballguy
I'm sure there is a very small percentage of Steelers fans who feel this way. A VERY small percentage, but those are the types of emails that will generate this kind of response. If you listen to local sports talk radio here, it paints a much different picture. Do I think the Steelers were dominated? No, I don't. Not even close. They had turned the ball over three times and were STILL only 2 yards from cutting the lead to 7 with fourteen minutes left. Had they punched it in, their momentum would have been huge heading into the fourth quarter. Cowher kicked the field goal, and that was the end of that...I think the Steelers made more than enough mistakes to dig them into a hole they couldn't get out of, and the Patriots made the plays they needed to win the game. I think it's just as ridiculous to hear Patriots fans talk about how the Pats dominated the game as it is to listen to Steelers fans talk this way.

 

Colin Dowling

Footballguy
Whatever, lets kick a dead horse while we're at it. G'nightI think I'll shine up my trophy from antsports, the WCOFF MOCKERS league one, and then beg the Huddle to let me come back even though I left for what I thought was a classier site. Good bye
I've already sent your resume to a number of other sites. THey are excited about having you as a member. Don't forget your hat on the way out.Good luck next year. Colin
 

AhrnCityPahnder

Yinz-o-riffic
Every fan base has a subset of idiots. It's not hard to find them, as in times like this they usually stand way out from the rest of the rational ones. Next.

 

Gatorman

Supreme Elite Maximum Tier
Just curious, if our rankings and advice are so completely useless, including the Draft "Dumb"inator as you so quick-wittedly coined our best-in-class draft app, why would you even consider re-subscribing in the first place?
you need to have this info so you know who the guppies in your league will pick....:stirsthepotalittle:Gator
 

BassNBrew

IBL Representative
LoL at anybody thinking the rankings that footballguys spit out or that the draft dumbinator won their leagues because of this site David. heh You all take yourselves way too seriously. Get a clue. Maybe it was the year of the guppie but.......... :wall:
:rotflmao: I remember when I had my first beer too!
 

David Yudkin

Footballguy
As is seemingly often the case here at FBG, my comments and actions have once again misconstrued.I in no way intented to present this information as "yeah for the Patriots, boo for the Steelers." Nor did I intend to infer that the Patriots dominated the Steelers.However, it seemed pretty clear to me that what DIDN'T happen last weekend was the Steelers dominating New England, and the quotes I presented indicated that was what those indiviudals felt.Again, if I saw similar comments from other weeks involving other teams I would have posted those as examples of homerism to the extreme.So for example, if I can find comments from Patriots fans circa 1985 thinking that their beloved team manhandled the Bears in the Super Bowl in spite of the 46-10 final score (or whatever the final score was), I will post those comments here as well.

 

Reaper

Footballguy
Edit to add: any body want to buy a three digit number?
I'll take you up on your bluff. I'll buy it for 20 bucks today.
Again - Its'a bunch of BS... Obviously this guy wasn't an ORIGINAL 3 digiter :popcorn: #771 Please come back to me.... Some fool is prancing around with it think he's big ####. :D
 

jurb26

Footballguy
Some fans just let their emotions control too much of what they actually say and see. That is all that is happening here. Happens with fans of any team. Its jsut those blinders of homerism we always talk about.As for the game, I would say that while it is questionable if Pitt got "dominated." Even as a Steeler fan, there was no question in my mind (not heart) as to who was going to win that game after the first quarter. NE did what that always do in big games. Make you play at their pace/tempo and take away what you want to do most. This was clear in the Pitt running game and NE hitting big passing plays down the field while neutralizing the Steelers blitz. I was glad to see Pitt keep fighting and spur some hope in the 2nd half, but it just always seemed like when they needed a play, they were going to get it. Is that domintation? I don't know, you tell me.

 

Reaper

Footballguy
Some fans just let their emotions control too much of what they actually say and see. That is all that is happening here. Happens with fans of any team. Its jsut those blinders of homerism we always talk about.As for the game, I would say that while it is questionable if Pitt got "dominated." Even as a Steeler fan, there was no question in my mind (not heart) as to who was going to win that game after the first quarter. NE did what that always do in big games. Make you play at their pace/tempo and take away what you want to do most. This was clear in the Pitt running game and NE hitting big passing plays down the field while neutralizing the Steelers blitz. I was glad to see Pitt keep fighting and spur some hope in the 2nd half, but it just always seemed like when they needed a play, they were going to get it. Is that domintation? I don't know, you tell me.
Not domination - But, combine their 1st playoff game with the Pats game and Pitt fans don't have a leg to stand on - Their team barely made a squeek in the playoffs and Big Ben folded like a cheap tent... It really couldn't have been much worse for Ben....After those two games you would really have to laugh at any emails that said PITT was the better team on the field in either playoff game. But, especially the one they LOST.
 

valhallan

Footballguy
Even though the staff consistently turns a cold shoulder to it, there is a culture here of chastising those who express emotion or an opinion with hints of homerism. It's actually quite disgusting and makes me think twice before coming here everyday.

We're all human and flaVVed, so just give the guy a break. David is a Pats fan, so one out of 14000 members perceiving this thread as gloating is hardly a stretch.

 

wadegarrett

FFA Legend™
Whatever, lets kick a dead horse while we're at it. G'nightI think I'll shine up my trophy from antsports, the WCOFF MOCKERS league one, and then beg the Huddle to let me come back even though I left for what I thought was a classier site. Good bye
Clueless.And I agree with everything Yudkin said.
 
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David Yudkin

Footballguy
Even though the staff consistently turns a cold shoulder to it, there is a culture here of chastising those who express emotion or an opinion with hints of homerism. It's actually quite disgusting and makes me think twice before coming here everyday.

We're all human and flaVVed, so just give the guy a break. David is a Pats fan, so one out of 14000 members perceiving this thread as gloating is hardly a stretch.
Again, what people perceive and what people understand is never the same. I am a COWBOYS fan. But the Cowboys are not currently playing, so it's not like I can comment on their forthcoming game.I happen to think that the Patriots are going to win the Super Bowl, so I have been campaigning my position on that (did that both last year and this year).

I also happen to live in New England, so I have been able to (forced?) to watch every Patriot game and consider myself well-versed in their tactics.

I suppose I could be accused of third party homerism (Eagles being a foe of the Cowboys), but I am not pimping the Pats as a die hard fan.

Like I said several times already, if I saw similar comments involving any other team and any other game, I would have posted those as well if they struck my fancy as being incongrous with the outcome of the game that was played.

Rooting for one's favorite team is both expected and encouraged in my book. Without it, most of the threads would hold no interest for anyone.

So if anyone was wondering . . .

Do I think the Eagles are a good team? Absolutely. Do I think the Steelers or Colts are good teams? Of course. But I happen to think that the Patriots are better than any of those teams and will when next week. Does my life change any whoever wins or loses? Absolutley not. What do I care, either way my Cowboys need a lot of help.

 

valhallan

Footballguy
I knew you watched every Pats game, so I figured you were a fan. My bad.Anyway, my post was more a broad statement to the people jumping on DC. If someone is obviously blinded by emotion, just let it slide. Don't make him out to be the world's worst poster. Easier said than done I guess.

 
The initial post didn't strike me as any kind of homerism. He was just making fun of fans who couldn't accept the fact that their team got taken out and spanked in front of a national crowd. I'd say they dominated, because the Pats took advantage of just about every mistake the Steelers made. Saying "we played well except for all the huge mistakes we made which led to a bunch of points for the other team" isn't saying much at all.

 

Evilgrin 72

Distributor of Pain
OK, here goes. I appreciate all the well thought out posts, heh heh. My point is why would a staff member choose to post a topic such as that? I see no value in beating up an already beaten group of fans. It shows blatant disrespect to make fun of them for his own personal benefit of a couple of chuckles. Now I retaliate with a few harsh words and whazooo. I'm the clown. No, not in my world. Thanks for all your words of wit boys but a haven't seen anything posted that will sway my veiws. Some poster said thanks for all my insightful posts in the past. Well let me put it this way. I've been lurking since cheatsheets.net, It took me till now, this year, to feeel confident enough in my own abilities to finally enter the arena known as pay leagues. I admit I'm a guppy. I also won all of my pay leagues. How did I do this you may ask. Well boys it isn't because of the draft dominator and it wasn't because of footballguys rankings. It was through many hard hours of weeding through the scrap posts and garnering all the pertinent info and gettng a feel for who the sharks are. I couldn't have done this if I was busy posting cwap just to see my name in lights. Would you all have thought a self proclaimed newbies insight had any value anyways. I think not. I won because of the posters on this message board and I apreciate what they've taught me. Now back to the topic at hand. If Yudkin can explain any other reason for starting that topic other than blatent disrespect towards fans of a fallen team I'll resubscribe. If not, I lurk the boards again next season and use the info to kick some butts again. It's about repect boys, but there's very little of that flowing today I see. I also won league 19 of the fantasyjungle. Is it because I payed footballguys their dues. No it was because of the free message boards. I sent my money to footballguys to support the FREE boards. Nothing more and nothing less. here's my insightful tips to ewe guys. Get two of the top tight ends. The new rules tend to make me think they are more valuable in todays nfl and it keeps your oponent from getting them. Still waiting Yudkin......Bryants 20 bucks is hangin on your reasoning for starting that thread. If it's not disrespect what is it? Sincerely me

 

Evilgrin 72

Distributor of Pain
Heh, I have a few favorite posters that can have the number for free if thats the way it goes. Save your bid money in case you end up in one of my leagues next year. This message board has trained me well :thumbup:

 

Aaron Rudnicki

Keep Walking™
Staff member
My point is why would a staff member choose to post a topic such as that? I see no value in beating up an already beaten group of fans. It shows blatant disrespect to make fun of them for his own personal benefit of a couple of chuckles.
who cares that David was a staff member?are we not allowed to post anything that might slight a particular team's fans once we become staff?besides, he never said anything insulting to Steeler fans. I'm guessing you're about the only person who took it that way.
 

David Yudkin

Footballguy
OK, here goes. I appreciate all the well thought out posts, heh heh. My point is why would a staff member choose to post a topic such as that? I see no value in beating up an already beaten group of fans. It shows blatant disrespect to make fun of them for his own personal benefit of a couple of chuckles. Now I retaliate with a few harsh words and whazooo. I'm the clown. No, not in my world. Thanks for all your words of wit boys but a haven't seen anything posted that will sway my veiws. Some poster said thanks for all my insightful posts in the past. Well let me put it this way. I've been lurking since cheatsheets.net, It took me till now, this year, to feeel confident enough in my own abilities to finally enter the arena known as pay leagues. I admit I'm a guppy. I also won all of my pay leagues. How did I do this you may ask. Well boys it isn't because of the draft dominator and it wasn't because of footballguys rankings. It was through many hard hours of weeding through the scrap posts and garnering all the pertinent info and gettng a feel for who the sharks are. I couldn't have done this if I was busy posting cwap just to see my name in lights. Would you all have thought a self proclaimed newbies insight had any value anyways. I think not. I won because of the posters on this message board and I apreciate what they've taught me. Now back to the topic at hand. If Yudkin can explain any other reason for starting that topic other than blatent disrespect towards fans of a fallen team I'll resubscribe. If not, I lurk the boards again next season and use the info to kick some butts again. It's about repect boys, but there's very little of that flowing today I see. I also won league 19 of the fantasyjungle. Is it because I payed footballguys their dues. No it was because of the free message boards. I sent my money to footballguys to support the FREE boards. Nothing more and nothing less. here's my insightful tips to ewe guys. Get two of the top tight ends. The new rules tend to make me think they are more valuable in todays nfl and it keeps your oponent from getting them. Still waiting Yudkin......Bryants 20 bucks is hangin on your reasoning for starting that thread. If it's not disrespect what is it? Sincerely me
There are so many things that you posted that don't seem inter-related, yet for some reason they are.As you stated, you have found fault with other content, rankings, applications, analytical tools, etc. FOR YEARS, yet MY POST is what has you hanging in the balance with regard to your future here as a subscriber. As I mentioned earlier, I have NOTHING AT ALL to do with the items on your agenda. Similarly, I have been staff here for a few MONTHS, yet you seem to have me accountable for things from ages ago.You assail me for making fun of a team's fans. All I did was point to another web site that posted their emails. Where is there anywhere in this entire thread that I said ANYTHING that can be construed as raining on someone else's parade or kicking a team that's downHere's an example. Say I read a newspaper article and find a passage interesting. I highlight it and post it on the message board. Did I WRITE the article? No. Did I give AN OPINION on the article? No.Say Jessica Simpson was quoted as saying that she wasn't sure if Chicken of the Sea was chicken or tuna (and she was quoted for saying that). I link to the quote, so suddenly I am the one embarassing Jessica Simpson? I didn't say what she said, nor did I write the article that she cited.You apparently find fault with the FBG staff for being too serious, yet you challange this one particular post as an affront to all football fans that will prompt you to pack up and leave. If that's not hypocritcial, I don't know what is.Believe me, if I wanted to slam the Steelers fans I could (but haven't). However, I don't recall ever having posted comments that shot down anyone or any team. I certainly have not stooped to calling out individual people or name calling like many other people have.If this does not pass muster for your "grading" process, so be it. If you do decide to vacate the premises and go elsewhere, good luck wherever you end up. It seems to me that your mind was made up on this one long ago.And if Joe feels that I was responsible for losing a subscriber, he can take the $20 out of my check.Sorry if this is not the response you might be looking for. If anyone has anything else to say that involves me directly, feel free to PM me, but this sideshow will have to stop here, I'm afraid.
 
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