What gives in Denver? (1 Viewer)

[Brothers Mayhem]

Take a look at the 2006 Bronco draft class:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/...ms/broncos.html

1. Cutler

2. Scheffler

4a. Marshall

4b. Dumervil

4c. Hixon

5. Kuper

6. Eslinger

Of the '06 draft class for Denver - only Kuper & Dumervil are still rostered. They traded away and/or released/cut the whole draft. Four of their 7 picks are contributing for other teams today. Is it any wonder they are struggling?

I realize that not every team can have stellar drafts every year - but this was a solid draft for the Bronc's.

Thoughts?

 

[gandalas]

Blame the firing of shannahan if you want to blame anything. That was "his" draft and therefore his guys, and a new Coach will inherently have less of a tie to players from a previous regime.

But damn, was that a good draft class looking back!

 

[adrenaline]

Um yeah, McDaniels is still working for the Patriots.

 

[fsufan]

but they got tebow

 

[rzrback77]

Mayhem is the on-going theme in Denver.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Take a look at the 2006 Bronco draft class:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/...ms/broncos.html

1. Cutler

2. Scheffler

4a. Marshall

4b. Dumervil

4c. Hixon

5. Kuper

6. Eslinger

Of the '06 draft class for Denver - only Kuper & Dumervil are still rostered. They traded away and/or released/cut the whole draft. Four of their 7 picks are contributing for other teams today. Is it any wonder they are struggling?

I realize that not every team can have stellar drafts every year - but this was a solid draft for the Bronc's.

Thoughts?

Are you kidding?The Broncos reaped Pro Bowl, QB, WR, seasons from Cutler and Marshall and had solid production from Scheffler and then from those same players they also got:

- 3 first round draft picks

- 2 third round draft picks

Add in the Pro Bowl season of Dumervill and the solid play of Kuiper.

I can't think of a more distored way to view the above draft than to only look at who is still on the roster and completely turning a blind eye to the 3 first round draft picks and the 2 extra third round picks on top of the Pro Bowl and solid production from the players who are no longer on the roster.

Please take into proper context the value already harvested from the players no longer on the roster and then factor in the value gained from the draft picks the team gained in exchange for them in trades.

Shanahan had an excellent draft but McDaniels is the one who should be judged on what he has done with the windfall of draft picks he was gifted by Shanahan by exchanging players for draft picks. I'd re-direct my attention to McDaniels drafts instead of attempting to skew the above value derived from the above draft based only on what is left on the roster without taking into account what the Broncos already got from the players who McDaniels scuttled and what McDaniels has done with the bounty of draft picks from the above draft.

 

[Brothers Mayhem]

Take a look at the 2006 Bronco draft class:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/...ms/broncos.html

1. Cutler

2. Scheffler

4a. Marshall

4b. Dumervil

4c. Hixon

5. Kuper

6. Eslinger

Of the '06 draft class for Denver - only Kuper & Dumervil are still rostered. They traded away and/or released/cut the whole draft. Four of their 7 picks are contributing for other teams today. Is it any wonder they are struggling?

I realize that not every team can have stellar drafts every year - but this was a solid draft for the Bronc's.

Thoughts?

Are you kidding?The Broncos reaped Pro Bowl, QB, WR, seasons from Cutler and Marshall and had solid production from Scheffler and then from those same players they also got:

- 3 first round draft picks

- 2 third round draft picks

Add in the Pro Bowl season of Dumervill and the solid play of Kuiper.

I can't think of a more distored way to view the above draft than to only look at who is still on the roster and completely turning a blind eye to the 3 first round draft picks and the 2 extra third round picks on top of the Pro Bowl and solid production from the players who are no longer on the roster.

Please take into proper context the value already harvested from the players no longer on the roster and then factor in the value gained from the draft picks the team gained in exchange for them in trades.

Shanahan had an excellent draft but McDaniels is the one who should be judged on what he has done with the windfall of draft picks he was gifted by Shanahan by exchanging players for draft picks. I'd re-direct my attention to McDaniels drafts instead of attempting to skew the above value derived from the above draft based only on what is left on the roster without taking into account what the Broncos already got from the players who McDaniels scuttled and what McDaniels has done with the bounty of draft picks from the above draft.

I had a winning lottery ticket once. Wasn't for big money. I hit the powerball on a $1 ticket and won $3. I got good value for that $1. Where else can u spend a buck and possibly win millions? But instead of keeping my $3 of winnings, I bought myself 3 more lottery tickets and lost on all three.....now I am shopping for a Tebow jersey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Take a look at the 2006 Bronco draft class:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/...ms/broncos.html

1. Cutler

2. Scheffler

4a. Marshall

4b. Dumervil

4c. Hixon

5. Kuper

6. Eslinger

Of the '06 draft class for Denver - only Kuper & Dumervil are still rostered. They traded away and/or released/cut the whole draft. Four of their 7 picks are contributing for other teams today. Is it any wonder they are struggling?

I realize that not every team can have stellar drafts every year - but this was a solid draft for the Bronc's.

Thoughts?

Are you kidding?The Broncos reaped Pro Bowl, QB, WR, seasons from Cutler and Marshall and had solid production from Scheffler and then from those same players they also got:

- 3 first round draft picks

- 2 third round draft picks

Add in the Pro Bowl season of Dumervill and the solid play of Kuiper.

I can't think of a more distored way to view the above draft than to only look at who is still on the roster and completely turning a blind eye to the 3 first round draft picks and the 2 extra third round picks on top of the Pro Bowl and solid production from the players who are no longer on the roster.

Please take into proper context the value already harvested from the players no longer on the roster and then factor in the value gained from the draft picks the team gained in exchange for them in trades.

Shanahan had an excellent draft but McDaniels is the one who should be judged on what he has done with the windfall of draft picks he was gifted by Shanahan by exchanging players for draft picks. I'd re-direct my attention to McDaniels drafts instead of attempting to skew the above value derived from the above draft based only on what is left on the roster without taking into account what the Broncos already got from the players who McDaniels scuttled and what McDaniels has done with the bounty of draft picks from the above draft.

I had a winning lottery ticket once. Wasn't for big money. I hit the powerball on a $1 ticket and won $3. I got good value for that $1. Where else can u spend a buck and possibly win millions? But instead of keeping my $3 of winnings, I bought myself 3 more lottery tickets and lost on all three.....now I am shopping for a Tebow jersey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Key distinction is that YOU bought the ticket and won.Then YOU decided to take YOUR winnings and buy more tickets and YOU lost.

YOU won and then YOU gambled with YOUR money.

Shanahan WON bigtime with the above draft.

McDaniels gambled Shanahan's winnings with the windfall but the outcome hasn't been determined yet.

Anytime a team gets multiple Pro Bowl seasons and then also gets three first round picks, two second round picks, add in other picks and players acquired in trading of players, then I would juding that draft a success.

I would judge what is done with picks acquired in any trade against the value given up.

So far not enough value has reaped on either side of the deals but the Broncos have already harvested multiple Pro Bowl seasons and gotten three first round lottery tickets for the price of one which makes the purchaser of the original ticket a winner in my book but YMMV.

 

[cr8f]

Blame the firing of shannahan if you want to blame anything. That was "his" draft and therefore his guys, and a new Coach will inherently have less of a tie to players from a previous regime.But damn, was that a good draft class looking back!

True but like the Colts before Dungy they had a good offense and needed defense. If he had left the O alone and had Nolan run the D they would be in much better shape right now. Why did Nolan leave?

 

[DawnBTVS]

Blame the firing of shannahan if you want to blame anything. That was "his" draft and therefore his guys, and a new Coach will inherently have less of a tie to players from a previous regime.

But damn, was that a good draft class looking back!

True but like the Colts before Dungy they had a good offense and needed defense. If he had left the O alone and had Nolan run the D they would be in much better shape right now. Why did Nolan leave?

Also there's a huge assumption that keeping the Shanahan offensive centerpieces would've made them go 10-6 or 11-5. They went 8-8 in Shanny's last season! McDaniels also went 8-8. Not a drop off record wise at all despite a completely new offense, new QB, etc.Difference of opinion. Nolan went ahead with McDaniels' blitz pressure heavy approach and he got saddled with being unable to stop the run the last 10 games. Key to any good team is that they have to be on the same page and if McDaniels/Nolan were disagreeing on things, why force Nolan to stay? Nolan told McDaniels he wanted to leave and McDaniels didn't stop him.

What people don't get/refuse to understand is that yeah, Nolan is considered a good DC and did a good job. Through 6 games. He was also the DC when they went on their 2-8 spiral and got TORCHED on the ground by Jamaal Charles. If you study Nolan's history, he does have a habit of bouncing around from place to place.

 

[Chaka]

Shanahan WON bigtime with the above draft.

No he went .500 with the above draft. Pro bowls and other honors are meaningless if you don't win games.We'll see if McDaniels can make chicken salad with those extra draft picks, because Shanahan couldn't with the players.

 

[SSOG]

Shanahan WON bigtime with the above draft.

No he went .500 with the above draft. Pro bowls and other honors are meaningless if you don't win games.We'll see if McDaniels can make chicken salad with those extra draft picks, because Shanahan couldn't with the players.

Denver's struggles under Shanahan had nothing to do with his 2006 draft and everything to do with his 2001-2004 drafts.

 

[TheDirtyWord]

As good as the talent looks on paper, Marshall for all his talent was a disruptive presence on that team. Cutler for all his talent has a 24-29 career record. And Scheffler even under Shanahan only produced moderately at the TE position.

In all honesty, I think Denver did fairly good to get the compensation they got for Marshall/Cutler players. Ask a Chicago fan if they might take that deal back? I'd say the percentage is more than it was this time last year. Marshall is TBD and he may wind up having a great career in MIA...but he's volatile. Tough to build your franchise on a volatile foundation.

Count me among the seeming minority of those people who like what McDaniels is doing in DEN. A little more experience on his part might have led him to make better decisions in terms of the manner some of these decisions went down. But he recognized immediately what he could and could not work with and got maximum value.

 

[SSOG]

As good as the talent looks on paper, Marshall for all his talent was a disruptive presence on that team. Cutler for all his talent has a 24-29 career record. And Scheffler even under Shanahan only produced moderately at the TE position.In all honesty, I think Denver did fairly good to get the compensation they got for Marshall/Cutler players. Ask a Chicago fan if they might take that deal back? I'd say the percentage is more than it was this time last year. Marshall is TBD and he may wind up having a great career in MIA...but he's volatile. Tough to build your franchise on a volatile foundation.Count me among the seeming minority of those people who like what McDaniels is doing in DEN. A little more experience on his part might have led him to make better decisions in terms of the manner some of these decisions went down. But he recognized immediately what he could and could not work with and got maximum value.

I would be a lot more okay with him trading vets for picks if all the picks he was making weren't looking so bad.Cutler + Marshall for Kyle Orton, 2 firsts, 2 seconds, and 1 third looks pretty good. Cutler + Marshall for Kyle Orton, Robert Ayers, Alphonso Smith, Demaryius Thomas, and Tim Tebow? Not so much.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

Also there's a huge assumption that keeping the Shanahan offensive centerpieces would've made them go 10-6 or 11-5. They went 8-8 in Shanny's last season! McDaniels also went 8-8. Not a drop off record wise at all despite a completely new offense, new QB, etc.

To be fair, the defense was crippled with injuries in the Shanny's last season. Every team has injuries, but not every team has to play games without any of their starting linebackers or #1 corner. They had a fullback start at middle linebacker one week.

 

[twistd]

As good as the talent looks on paper, Marshall for all his talent was a disruptive presence on that team. Cutler for all his talent has a 24-29 career record. And Scheffler even under Shanahan only produced moderately at the TE position.In all honesty, I think Denver did fairly good to get the compensation they got for Marshall/Cutler players. Ask a Chicago fan if they might take that deal back? I'd say the percentage is more than it was this time last year. Marshall is TBD and he may wind up having a great career in MIA...but he's volatile. Tough to build your franchise on a volatile foundation.Count me among the seeming minority of those people who like what McDaniels is doing in DEN. A little more experience on his part might have led him to make better decisions in terms of the manner some of these decisions went down. But he recognized immediately what he could and could not work with and got maximum value.

I would be a lot more okay with him trading vets for picks if all the picks he was making weren't looking so bad.Cutler + Marshall for Kyle Orton, 2 firsts, 2 seconds, and 1 third looks pretty good. Cutler + Marshall for Kyle Orton, Robert Ayers, Alphonso Smith, Demaryius Thomas, and Tim Tebow? Not so much.

I agree 100%. When Dallas traded Herschel Walker to Minnesota that trade wouldn't have looked nearly as good for Dallas if Dallas hadn't done such a good job with those draft picks. They built the core of a terrific team. I thought the Broncos did well in getting value for those two players, but I too, question how they used those picks. Ayers and Smith have been a big disappointment. So if those two players fail, that trade basically becomes Tebow and Thomas for Cutler and Marshall. Even Orton has been a disappointment. I actually thought Orton would be better than he has been. Interesting to see how this plays out, but I don't know if I'd be optimistic if I was a Bronco fan.

 

[DawnBTVS]

I agree 100%. When Dallas traded Herschel Walker to Minnesota that trade wouldn't have looked nearly as good for Dallas if Dallas hadn't done such a good job with those draft picks. They built the core of a terrific team. I thought the Broncos did well in getting value for those two players, but I too, question how they used those picks. Ayers and Smith have been a big disappointment. So if those two players fail, that trade basically becomes Tebow and Thomas for Cutler and Marshall. Even Orton has been a disappointment. I actually thought Orton would be better than he has been. Interesting to see how this plays out, but I don't know if I'd be optimistic if I was a Bronco fan.

I think part of the issue when looking at, "Did McDaniels get value in his draft picks?" is that McDaniels has said that his draft picks aren't expected to contribute immediately as starters. If they end up doing that, great, but he's looking a year down the line when he selects them. Year 2 is when guys like Robert Ayers and Alphonso Smith are expected to step in and start somewhere (Ayers at OLB, Smith maybe at Nickel Back due to their deep secondary depth).Thomas is coming off an injury but expected to get reps with the idea that he can lock down a starting job next year. Same thing for Tebow, he'll step in around the goal line or in "spread option" type formations but he's not expected to come in and be the starting quarterback this season.If we look at these picks a year or two from this season, we'll have a better idea if they busted or produced.As for Orton, I think he'll be much improved this year. They played the following teams last season: Dallas, New England, San Diego, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, New York Giants, Indianapolis, and Philadelphia. That's a really tough schedule, especially with a new offense to learn.Despite that he still threw for 62%, just over 3,800 yards, and 21 TD in just 15 starts. Remember that he missed a game and then partly rushed himself back to replace the ineffective Chris Simms.

 

[moleculo]

oddly, the only winning season any of these guys ever had in a Bronco uniform was in 2006: their rookie year when they went 9-7.

Of course, we should mention tha tthe year before these guys showed up, Denver was 13-3 and hosted the AFCCG. That squad was the #7 O and #3 D (in terms of scoring). It's been a downhill slide since 2005, culminating in Shanahans (and most of these guys as well) exit.

As great as these guys were at putting up numbers, they struggled to win games. My belief is that Shanahan went so much all-in to bolster the passing O in 2006 draft that he almost completely neglected an aging D... This forced his teams to be very one dimensional.

 

[SSOG]

Also there's a huge assumption that keeping the Shanahan offensive centerpieces would've made them go 10-6 or 11-5. They went 8-8 in Shanny's last season! McDaniels also went 8-8. Not a drop off record wise at all despite a completely new offense, new QB, etc.

To be fair, the defense was crippled with injuries in the Shanny's last season. Every team has injuries, but not every team has to play games without any of their starting linebackers or #1 corner. They had a fullback start at middle linebacker one week.

You forgot the injuries at RB. Denver put 7 runningbacks on IR that year. SEVEN. Their starting tailback over the last 4 weeks of the season was selling cell phones in the local mall in September (after making headlines in August for stealing Rudi Johnson's luggage).

 

[cr8f]

Blame the firing of shannahan if you want to blame anything. That was "his" draft and therefore his guys, and a new Coach will inherently have less of a tie to players from a previous regime.

But damn, was that a good draft class looking back!

True but like the Colts before Dungy they had a good offense and needed defense. If he had left the O alone and had Nolan run the D they would be in much better shape right now. Why did Nolan leave?

Also there's a huge assumption that keeping the Shanahan offensive centerpieces would've made them go 10-6 or 11-5. They went 8-8 in Shanny's last season! McDaniels also went 8-8. Not a drop off record wise at all despite a completely new offense, new QB, etc.Difference of opinion. Nolan went ahead with McDaniels' blitz pressure heavy approach and he got saddled with being unable to stop the run the last 10 games. Key to any good team is that they have to be on the same page and if McDaniels/Nolan were disagreeing on things, why force Nolan to stay? Nolan told McDaniels he wanted to leave and McDaniels didn't stop him.

What people don't get/refuse to understand is that yeah, Nolan is considered a good DC and did a good job. Through 6 games. He was also the DC when they went on their 2-8 spiral and got TORCHED on the ground by Jamaal Charles. If you study Nolan's history, he does have a habit of bouncing around from place to place.

Not a Denver expert but would still keep the offense and improve the defense. If Nolan wasn't the man so be it find the right one.

 

[DawnBTVS]

Also there's a huge assumption that keeping the Shanahan offensive centerpieces would've made them go 10-6 or 11-5. They went 8-8 in Shanny's last season! McDaniels also went 8-8. Not a drop off record wise at all despite a completely new offense, new QB, etc.

Difference of opinion. Nolan went ahead with McDaniels' blitz pressure heavy approach and he got saddled with being unable to stop the run the last 10 games. Key to any good team is that they have to be on the same page and if McDaniels/Nolan were disagreeing on things, why force Nolan to stay? Nolan told McDaniels he wanted to leave and McDaniels didn't stop him.

What people don't get/refuse to understand is that yeah, Nolan is considered a good DC and did a good job. Through 6 games. He was also the DC when they went on their 2-8 spiral and got TORCHED on the ground by Jamaal Charles. If you study Nolan's history, he does have a habit of bouncing around from place to place.

Not a Denver expert but would still keep the offense and improve the defense. If Nolan wasn't the man so be it find the right one.

Well...1: You're assuming that Josh McDaniels would run the same exact offense as Mike Shanahan and all of talents in "the offense" would mesh or fit perfectly with the scheme that McDaniels was implementing. This have been proven that McD wanted a game manager/smart QB who won't make mistakes and turn the ball over. That was not and is not Cutler's style. Peyton Hillis basically was a 4th/5th RB on the depth chart who only started and looked halfway decent due to injuries and the scheme Shanahan ran.

2A: Cutler, Scheffler, and Marshall all signed their own tickets out of Denver. Cutler was the one who demanded a trade after learning that McDaniels had the brass to actually discuss a potential trade for Matt Cassel. A trade that never happened. Cutler was also the one who refused to return the owner's calls. That got him out more than anything to do with McDaniels. Scheffler was close with Cutler and the receiving TE has never been implemented much in the scheme that McDaniels wanted to run. Not surprising that Scheffler would suddenly want out.

2B: Brandon Marshall wanted out of Denver, period. There is absolutely no disputing that fact. It was a personal deal with Marshall (not football related) and it was also inevitable that he would be gone. McDaniels is lucky he even got a year out of him given the early camp disaster. Marshall personally and the team as a whole are both now better off.

3: They did try to improve the defense. They had guys like Brian Dawkins and Andre Goodman coming in for the secondary. Now they have added Justin Bannan, Jarvis Green, and Jamal Williams for the defensive line and also added Nate Young to the secondary. They are now trying to find the right DC by moving up their LB Coach from last season, Wink Martindale.

I apologize if I'm coming off overly defensive but I'm tired of seeing fingers pointed at McDaniels for not keeping Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler, Nolan, etc. or pretending that the Broncos would have gone 10-6 or better if McDaniels had just stuck with Shanahan's plans. If McDaniels did that, they may as well just have kept Shanahan as HC and hired McDaniels as DC.

If anybody would actually look deeper at the scenario from a non-FF perspective, they would understand why those 4 people are no longer part of the Broncos organization and rarely was it just McDaniels deciding he'd be a jerk and send them packing for the fun of it.

 

[cowpie]

Take a look at the 2006 Bronco draft class:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/...ms/broncos.html

1. Cutler

2. Scheffler

4a. Marshall

4b. Dumervil

4c. Hixon

5. Kuper

6. Eslinger

Of the '06 draft class for Denver - only Kuper & Dumervil are still rostered. They traded away and/or released/cut the whole draft. Four of their 7 picks are contributing for other teams today. Is it any wonder they are struggling?

I realize that not every team can have stellar drafts every year - but this was a solid draft for the Bronc's.

Thoughts?

Are you kidding?The Broncos reaped Pro Bowl, QB, WR, seasons from Cutler and Marshall and had solid production from Scheffler and then from those same players they also got:

- 3 first round draft picks

- 2 third round draft picks

Add in the Pro Bowl season of Dumervill and the solid play of Kuiper.

I can't think of a more distored way to view the above draft than to only look at who is still on the roster and completely turning a blind eye to the 3 first round draft picks and the 2 extra third round picks on top of the Pro Bowl and solid production from the players who are no longer on the roster.

Please take into proper context the value already harvested from the players no longer on the roster and then factor in the value gained from the draft picks the team gained in exchange for them in trades.

Shanahan had an excellent draft but McDaniels is the one who should be judged on what he has done with the windfall of draft picks he was gifted by Shanahan by exchanging players for draft picks. I'd re-direct my attention to McDaniels drafts instead of attempting to skew the above value derived from the above draft based only on what is left on the roster without taking into account what the Broncos already got from the players who McDaniels scuttled and what McDaniels has done with the bounty of draft picks from the above draft.

I had a winning lottery ticket once. Wasn't for big money. I hit the powerball on a $1 ticket and won $3. I got good value for that $1. Where else can u spend a buck and possibly win millions? But instead of keeping my $3 of winnings, I bought myself 3 more lottery tickets and lost on all three.....now I am shopping for a Tebow jersey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Key distinction is that YOU bought the ticket and won.Then YOU decided to take YOUR winnings and buy more tickets and YOU lost.

YOU won and then YOU gambled with YOUR money.

Shanahan WON bigtime with the above draft.

McDaniels gambled Shanahan's winnings with the windfall but the outcome hasn't been determined yet.

Anytime a team gets multiple Pro Bowl seasons and then also gets three first round picks, two second round picks, add in other picks and players acquired in trading of players, then I would juding that draft a success.

I would judge what is done with picks acquired in any trade against the value given up.

So far not enough value has reaped on either side of the deals but the Broncos have already harvested multiple Pro Bowl seasons and gotten three first round lottery tickets for the price of one which makes the purchaser of the original ticket a winner in my book but YMMV.

good come back

 

[twistd]

I agree 100%. When Dallas traded Herschel Walker to Minnesota that trade wouldn't have looked nearly as good for Dallas if Dallas hadn't done such a good job with those draft picks. They built the core of a terrific team. I thought the Broncos did well in getting value for those two players, but I too, question how they used those picks. Ayers and Smith have been a big disappointment. So if those two players fail, that trade basically becomes Tebow and Thomas for Cutler and Marshall. Even Orton has been a disappointment. I actually thought Orton would be better than he has been. Interesting to see how this plays out, but I don't know if I'd be optimistic if I was a Bronco fan.

I think part of the issue when looking at, "Did McDaniels get value in his draft picks?" is that McDaniels has said that his draft picks aren't expected to contribute immediately as starters. If they end up doing that, great, but he's looking a year down the line when he selects them. Year 2 is when guys like Robert Ayers and Alphonso Smith are expected to step in and start somewhere (Ayers at OLB, Smith maybe at Nickel Back due to their deep secondary depth).Thomas is coming off an injury but expected to get reps with the idea that he can lock down a starting job next year. Same thing for Tebow, he'll step in around the goal line or in "spread option" type formations but he's not expected to come in and be the starting quarterback this season.

If we look at these picks a year or two from this season, we'll have a better idea if they busted or produced.

As for Orton, I think he'll be much improved this year. They played the following teams last season: Dallas, New England, San Diego, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, New York Giants, Indianapolis, and Philadelphia. That's a really tough schedule, especially with a new offense to learn.

Despite that he still threw for 62%, just over 3,800 yards, and 21 TD in just 15 starts. Remember that he missed a game and then partly rushed himself back to replace the ineffective Chris Simms.

You are right in that Ayers and Smith should be more ready to contribute in their second year, but things are not looking good for either so far. Ayers has been working with the second team defense. A guy who had the price tag that Smith had you would expect to contribute right away. Smith was thought to be a first round guy who dropped. A lot of highly drafted corners come in and play very well from the jump. Smith couldn't even hold the job as a nickel back. That isn't good.http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/...n-the-doghouse/

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/tag/_/name/alphonso-smith

Thomas is going to take time to develop. I doubt he contributes much this year, and the same with Tebow. Orton may be improved this year, but I think he will struggle. He may grasp the offense better, but their receivers and TEs are not very good right now. Unless Royal re-emerges, and either Thomas or Decker picks things up fast, this is definitely a weakness. If Jabar Gaffney is your number one guy, then receiver is not a strength of your team. Orton may be helped by a more productive running game, but the line may struggle too, with all their injuries. So Orton may play better, but I'm not sure how much he will be able to produce. I think Marshall's presence made Orton's numbers look better than they probably should have looked. He won't have Marshall this year.

 

[Escape Goat]

McDaniels has a plan and the Orange Crush will return to semi-dominance within the mext 4 years. It's a slow plan but I respect what's going on over there.

 

[DawnBTVS]

You are right in that Ayers and Smith should be more ready to contribute in their second year, but things are not looking good for either so far. Ayers has been working with the second team defense. A guy who had the price tag that Smith had you would expect to contribute right away. Smith was thought to be a first round guy who dropped. A lot of highly drafted corners come in and play very well from the jump. Smith couldn't even hold the job as a nickel back. That isn't good.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/...n-the-doghouse/

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/tag/_/name/alphonso-smith

Thomas is going to take time to develop. I doubt he contributes much this year, and the same with Tebow. Orton may be improved this year, but I think he will struggle. He may grasp the offense better, but their receivers and TEs are not very good right now. Unless Royal re-emerges, and either Thomas or Decker picks things up fast, this is definitely a weakness. If Jabar Gaffney is your number one guy, then receiver is not a strength of your team. Orton may be helped by a more productive running game, but the line may struggle too, with all their injuries. So Orton may play better, but I'm not sure how much he will be able to produce. I think Marshall's presence made Orton's numbers look better than they probably should have looked. He won't have Marshall this year.

Yeah, Ayers especially has to prove himself as does Smith although Smith is also surrounded by a lot of talent in the secondary so it's a bit more understandable why he hasn't stepped in immediately as a starter at say CB. I have read that Alphonso Smith looked much better during minicamps this year so hopefully he's taken that next step.I think training camp and preseason will show how far Ayers, Smith, and some of the other defensive rookies (David Bruton and Darcel McBath both impressed last year on special teams and at safety) have come in their second year.

Outside of Ryan Clady, some starters have become healthy now (including Ryan Harris who missed the last 8 games IIRC) and they are much deeper overall. They have drafted Zane Beadles, Eric Olsen, and J.D. Walton this year on top of G Seth Olsen last year. I think the improvement in the running game will definitely help offset the loss of Marshall a little bit in the passing game.

This season, they are basically going to have to replace 135 catches (Marshall, Scheffler, and Hillis). It is rather doable when you break it down.

- Jabar Gaffney: He had 54 catches last season despite mostly being in a WR2 role. He should see let's say 70-80 catches.

- Eddie Royal: Had just 37 catches and started 12 games. He should be around 50-60 catches minimum.

- Daniel Graham: He had 28 catches last season and can easily step in and "produce" what Scheffler did. Richard Quinn should also see the field a bit more in his 2nd Season.

- Brandon Lloyd: He had just 8 catches and should see the field a bit more. He can contribute 10-15 catches.

- Kenny McKinley: He's a 2nd Season player at WR and a guy that McDaniels is very high on. He may see the field sparingly or compete with Brandon Lloyd for the other catches.

- Demaryius Thomas/Eric Decker: The two rookies this season. Thomas will be relied upon but expectations should be about 20-30 catches for each of them.

- Knowshon Moreno: Started just 9 games and had 28 catches. He should start all 16 games and will help fill the void of Marshall.

- Correll Buckhalter: Started just 7 games and had 31 catches. If he can stay healthy, he too can help offset some of Marshall's contributions.

Last year Denver had 341 catches. So let's try and break it down to "high end" expectations.

- Jabar Gaffney 80 Catches, Eddie Royal 60 Catches, Daniel Graham 30 Catches, Richard Quinn 5 Catches, Brandon Lloyd 20 Catches, Kenny McKinley 10 Catches, Demaryius Thomas 35 Catches, Eric Decker 10 Catches, Knowshon Moreno 45 Catches, and Correll Buckhalter 35 Catches.

That would come out to a total of 330 catches. Just 11 fewer than last season's totals and I'm probably being conservative on some of the above players. At the same time, none of those would be that far out of the realm of possibility either given the individuals involved.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Shanahan WON bigtime with the above draft.

No he went .500 with the above draft. Pro bowls and other honors are meaningless if you don't win games.

This is silly. You could say the same thing about 90% of the drafts in the NFL.

As great as these guys were at putting up numbers, they struggled to win games. My belief is that Shanahan went so much all-in to bolster the passing O in 2006 draft that he almost completely neglected an aging D... This forced his teams to be very one dimensional.

This is even sillier. San Diego's 2001 draft class, which included Ladainian Tomlinson and Drew Brees, went 5-11, 8-8, and 4-12 in their first three years.

 

[moleculo]

Shanahan WON bigtime with the above draft.

No he went .500 with the above draft. Pro bowls and other honors are meaningless if you don't win games.

This is silly. You could say the same thing about 90% of the drafts in the NFL.

As great as these guys were at putting up numbers, they struggled to win games. My belief is that Shanahan went so much all-in to bolster the passing O in 2006 draft that he almost completely neglected an aging D... This forced his teams to be very one dimensional.

This is even sillier. San Diego's 2001 draft class, which included Ladainian Tomlinson and Drew Brees, went 5-11, 8-8, and 4-12 in their first three years.

is it your contention that Shanahan won bigtime with the 2006 draft class? IMO that's the silliest.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Shanahan WON bigtime with the above draft.

No he went .500 with the above draft. Pro bowls and other honors are meaningless if you don't win games.

This is silly. You could say the same thing about 90% of the drafts in the NFL.

As great as these guys were at putting up numbers, they struggled to win games. My belief is that Shanahan went so much all-in to bolster the passing O in 2006 draft that he almost completely neglected an aging D... This forced his teams to be very one dimensional.

This is even sillier. San Diego's 2001 draft class, which included Ladainian Tomlinson and Drew Brees, went 5-11, 8-8, and 4-12 in their first three years.

is it your contention that Shanahan won bigtime with the 2006 draft class? IMO that's the silliest.

The idea that a single draft class can be defined by their winning percentage over the next three years is almost as ridiculous as the idea that a quarterback can single handedly lead his team to 15 victories with the worst defense in the league (Cutler 2008). None of the great or even good teams in recent history did it on the legs of one draft class. None. They all had major contributions from members of other draft classes or free agents.The Broncos 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks in 2004, 2005, and 2007 were DJ Williams, Tatum Bell, Darius Watts, Jeremy LeSueur, Darrent Williams, Karl Paymah, Jarvis Moss, and Tim Crowder. The fact that they were still a solid playoff contender each year in spite of that is a testament to how good some of those players from 2006 played.

 

[moleculo]

The idea that a single draft class can be defined by their winning percentage over the next three years is almost as ridiculous as the idea that a quarterback can single handedly lead his team to 15 victories with the worst defense in the league (Cutler 2008). None of the great or even good teams in recent history did it on the legs of one draft class. None. They all had major contributions from members of other draft classes or free agents.The Broncos 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks in 2004, 2005, and 2007 were DJ Williams, Tatum Bell, Darius Watts, Jeremy LeSueur, Darrent Williams, Karl Paymah, Jarvis Moss, and Tim Crowder. The fact that they were still a solid playoff contender each year in spite of that is a testament to how good some of those players from 2006 played.

what about the fact that they legitimately were a solid playoff team in 2005? You bring up SD's '01 draft class and their lack of success immediately afterwards, but you are neglecting that in the previous 4 years, SD averaged 4.5 wins. That team had more holes than QB and RB - it's not easy to go from 1-15 to 8-8. The '06 Broncos, conversely, were 13-3 with returning pro-bowlers at WR, QB, LB, CB, and S, a dominant running game, and a good but aging D.It reminds me of a joke my old dive instructor used to tell:Q: how do you make a small fortune in the dive business?A: start with a large one.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

The idea that a single draft class can be defined by their winning percentage over the next three years is almost as ridiculous as the idea that a quarterback can single handedly lead his team to 15 victories with the worst defense in the league (Cutler 2008). None of the great or even good teams in recent history did it on the legs of one draft class. None. They all had major contributions from members of other draft classes or free agents.The Broncos 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks in 2004, 2005, and 2007 were DJ Williams, Tatum Bell, Darius Watts, Jeremy LeSueur, Darrent Williams, Karl Paymah, Jarvis Moss, and Tim Crowder. The fact that they were still a solid playoff contender each year in spite of that is a testament to how good some of those players from 2006 played.

what about the fact that they legitimately were a solid playoff team in 2005? You bring up SD's '01 draft class and their lack of success immediately afterwards, but you are neglecting that in the previous 4 years, SD averaged 4.5 wins. That team had more holes than QB and RB - it's not easy to go from 1-15 to 8-8. The '06 Broncos, conversely, were 13-3 with returning pro-bowlers at WR, QB, LB, CB, and S, a dominant running game, and a good but aging D.It reminds me of a joke my old dive instructor used to tell:Q: how do you make a small fortune in the dive business?A: start with a large one.

"Aging" is an understatement. Cutler and Marshall didn't really play as rookies in 2006, and by 2007 when they did get on the field every single one of those six pro bowlers other than Champ Bailey were off the team or retired. In fact, if I'm reading this right, the 2007 Denver Broncos returned only 5 starters from the 2005 team.

 

[SSOG]

is it your contention that Shanahan won bigtime with the 2006 draft class? IMO that's the silliest.

He executed a 1st round pick on an asset that was later deemed to be worth two firsts, a third, a veteran QB, and a massive contract. He executed a 4th round pick on an asset that was later deemed to be worth two seconds and a massive contract. He executed another 4th round pick on an asset that led the league in sacks and was deemed to be worth a massive contract. I shudder to think of how many fewer wins the Broncos would have had over the last 3 years if the 2006 draft class had not been so amazingly superlative.

what about the fact that they legitimately were a solid playoff team in 2005?

The Broncos were a legitimately solid playoff team in 2005, but that core was pretty much eviscerated within a year. In 2005, Denver players accounted for 3373 receiving yards. If you add up all of the receiving yards that all of those players posted for the rest of their entire careers, you get 2,204 yards. Seriously. There wasn't a single player with so much as a single receiving yard on the 2005 Denver Broncos who did anything else for the entire rest of his career. The best season by anyone on that list was Rod Smith's 512 yards in 2006 before retiring. The running backs on that offense were a 32 year old Mike Anderson, plus Tatum Bell and Ron Dayne. The QB was Jake Plummer. Basically, while the offense was awesome in 2005, EVERY SINGLE SKILL POSITION PLAYER ON IT imploded within a year. Matt Lepsis (in my mind, Denver's best offensive player) was seriously injured in 2006, a shell of himself in 2007, and retired by 2008. Al Wilson, the most important player in the entire defense, was seriously injured and retired within a year. Ian Gold was in free fall and out of the league in two years. Nick Ferguson lost 15 starts to injury over the next two seasons before being let go. Darrent Williams was killed. John Lynch was 35, 36, and then retired. Trevor Pryce was gone after 2005.Basically, out of all the players from that awesome 2005 squad, the only ones the 2006 draft class had the benefit of playing with beyond their rookie year were Champ Bailey, D.J. Williams, and Ebenezer Ekuban. No, the 2006 draft class did not achieve similar results to the 2005 Denver Broncos, because 90% of the people responsible for Denver's 2005 season were gone after Denver's 2005 season. It'd be like if Indy lost Peyton, Reggie, Dallas, Saturday, Freeney, and Mathis, and then you started blaming their 2010 draft class for the fact that they "only" played .500 football in the years immediately following.Come on, Moleculo. You follow Denver as closely as anyone. You should know better than this.

 

[moleculo]

is it your contention that Shanahan won bigtime with the 2006 draft class? IMO that's the silliest.

He executed a 1st round pick on an asset that was later deemed to be worth two firsts, a third, a veteran QB, and a massive contract. He executed a 4th round pick on an asset that was later deemed to be worth two seconds and a massive contract. He executed another 4th round pick on an asset that led the league in sacks and was deemed to be worth a massive contract. I shudder to think of how many fewer wins the Broncos would have had over the last 3 years if the 2006 draft class had not been so amazingly superlative.

what about the fact that they legitimately were a solid playoff team in 2005?

The Broncos were a legitimately solid playoff team in 2005, but that core was pretty much eviscerated within a year. In 2005, Denver players accounted for 3373 receiving yards. If you add up all of the receiving yards that all of those players posted for the rest of their entire careers, you get 2,204 yards. Seriously. There wasn't a single player with so much as a single receiving yard on the 2005 Denver Broncos who did anything else for the entire rest of his career. The best season by anyone on that list was Rod Smith's 512 yards in 2006 before retiring. The running backs on that offense were a 32 year old Mike Anderson, plus Tatum Bell and Ron Dayne. The QB was Jake Plummer. Basically, while the offense was awesome in 2005, EVERY SINGLE SKILL POSITION PLAYER ON IT imploded within a year. Matt Lepsis (in my mind, Denver's best offensive player) was seriously injured in 2006, a shell of himself in 2007, and retired by 2008. Al Wilson, the most important player in the entire defense, was seriously injured and retired within a year. Ian Gold was in free fall and out of the league in two years. Nick Ferguson lost 15 starts to injury over the next two seasons before being let go. Darrent Williams was killed. John Lynch was 35, 36, and then retired. Trevor Pryce was gone after 2005.Basically, out of all the players from that awesome 2005 squad, the only ones the 2006 draft class had the benefit of playing with beyond their rookie year were Champ Bailey, D.J. Williams, and Ebenezer Ekuban. No, the 2006 draft class did not achieve similar results to the 2005 Denver Broncos, because 90% of the people responsible for Denver's 2005 season were gone after Denver's 2005 season. It'd be like if Indy lost Peyton, Reggie, Dallas, Saturday, Freeney, and Mathis, and then you started blaming their 2010 draft class for the fact that they "only" played .500 football in the years immediately following.Come on, Moleculo. You follow Denver as closely as anyone. You should know better than this.

Look - I'm not trying to argue that this draft caused the subsequent implosion - that certainly is not the case. However, that 2005 team had some glaring holes in terms of aging veterans that were unfilled and remained unfilled for a really long time to come. Let's talk about quality depth @ LB. Denver has been searching for a good MLB since Al Wilson retired. Let's talk about safety. Denver has had a pretty terrible run @ safety between Lynch and Dawkins. Let's talk about the DL - we all know that has been a revolving door of suck since Pryce walked. How about the OL - that has degraded consistently for a while. Let's talk about the revolving door @ RB.I'm going down some tangents here - let me re-focus what I'm trying to claim, and that's this: the 2006 draft, while full of some great individual players, ultimately failed to win games. IMO, they were drafted as BPA and were not necessarily brought in to address some glaring team needs. I freely acknowledge that it takes more than 7 players to win games, but I would also propose that it takes less than 7 players to divide a fan base and lead to a great coaches eventual downfall.

 

[Buffaloes]

Shanahan WON bigtime with the above draft.

No he went .500 with the above draft. Pro bowls and other honors are meaningless if you don't win games.We'll see if McDaniels can make chicken salad with those extra draft picks, because Shanahan couldn't with the players.

Denver's struggles under Shanahan had nothing to do with his 2006 draft and everything to do with his 2001-2004 drafts.

That's not true. Sure, it was a fun offense to watch, but it had its warts too. The offense could move the chains, but it wasn't an efficient scoring team the 2008 season--really the year this draft class was supposed to (and came closest) putting it all together. IIRC, They were 2nd in yards-per-game, but 16th in scoring offense. Cutler being 2nd in INTs in 2008 had a lot to do with that ineffectiveness and much of the blame should be placed on the offense when all Denver had to do was win against Buffalo, Carolina or SD in 2008. The Buffalo game in particular, the offense faltered and Cutler wilted in the red zone overthrowing a wide open Brandon Stokley twice for the potential game-winning TD and eventually hitting Kawika Mitchell right in the numbers near the goal line for the decisive turnover. To say their failures had nothing to do with the 2006 draft class is false. Could that offense have been special? Maybe. But that assumes a lot. Two of the guys have had some issues with maturity and who knows if Cutler, in particular, would have turned the corner in Denver? But to completely absolve the 2006 class of blame, particularly during the 2008 season, when the offense was centered around their young QB, WR and TE, isn't really telling the whole story. Obviously the story of the Denver teams during the twilight of Shanahan's twilight was the horrid defenses. But the defense actually gave the offense a very good shot at winning against Buffalo in 2008 and it was the offense that buckled. Hopefully the team can get it going this year so we aren't beating this same horse this time next year.

 

[greenroom]

Why does everyone love Cutler? He is the Jake Plummer of QB's at this time. Looks great when he is not on your team and when he is you are left with the WTF reaction towards this guy.

Vandy was 11-35

NFL is 24-29 as a starteer.

Look I think this guy has all the tools, but his history shows that he is not a winner and may never be.

 

[Warpig]

As good as the talent looks on paper, Marshall for all his talent was a disruptive presence on that team. Cutler for all his talent has a 24-29 career record. And Scheffler even under Shanahan only produced moderately at the TE position.In all honesty, I think Denver did fairly good to get the compensation they got for Marshall/Cutler players. Ask a Chicago fan if they might take that deal back? I'd say the percentage is more than it was this time last year. Marshall is TBD and he may wind up having a great career in MIA...but he's volatile. Tough to build your franchise on a volatile foundation.Count me among the seeming minority of those people who like what McDaniels is doing in DEN. A little more experience on his part might have led him to make better decisions in terms of the manner some of these decisions went down. But he recognized immediately what he could and could not work with and got maximum value.

I would be a lot more okay with him trading vets for picks if all the picks he was making weren't looking so bad.Cutler + Marshall for Kyle Orton, 2 firsts, 2 seconds, and 1 third looks pretty good. Cutler + Marshall for Kyle Orton, Robert Ayers, Alphonso Smith, Demaryius Thomas, and Tim Tebow? Not so much.

Exactly.McDaniels is purely an idiot in the Lane Kiffin mold. He drafted a work in progress WR in Thomas BEFORE Dez Bryant! He trades away 1st round draft picks for nickel backs and so on. Just so many head scratching roster and draft moves. AND to top it all off, he takes Tebow in the 1st round!!! What a maroon! I feel sorry for you Denver fans. They might possibly come in dead last in the AFC West. (Yes, I think Oakland is better than Denver...on paper).

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Shanahan WON bigtime with the above draft.

No he went .500 with the above draft. Pro bowls and other honors are meaningless if you don't win games.We'll see if McDaniels can make chicken salad with those extra draft picks, because Shanahan couldn't with the players.

I don't want to put words in your mouth so clarify your response please.You imply Shanahan did not WIN BIGTIME in that draft because the team only finished at .500 that year.Are you saying that no team other than winning teams can have winning drafts and that no team with a .500 or below .500 W/L record could win a draft because of the W/L record of the year of the draft?Multiple Pro Bowl seasons plus multiple first round picks acquired from the players McDaniels did not want to work with when he came aboard.You told me NO that Shanahan did not WIN BIGTIME in the draft so you must have a really good take to dicount multiple Pro Bowl season,three number one draft picks, multiple other drafts picks, plus a starting QB.I said Shanahan WON BIGTIME and I didn't bother to place that into the proper context.Proper context is how other teams fared in that same draft, or any other draft over the last decade for that matter. No team got 3 Pro Bowl players and then were able to walk away with three first round picks plus extras after harversting multiple Pro Bowl seasons from guys they grew tired of.You told me NO so please make your case because I don't think that really meant that the W/L record is how to judge a draft.

 

[Ghost Rider]

That's not true. Sure, it was a fun offense to watch, but it had its warts too. The offense could move the chains, but it wasn't an efficient scoring team the 2008 season--really the year this draft class was supposed to (and came closest) putting it all together. IIRC, They were 2nd in yards-per-game, but 16th in scoring offense. Cutler being 2nd in INTs in 2008 had a lot to do with that ineffectiveness and much of the blame should be placed on the offense when all Denver had to do was win against Buffalo, Carolina or SD in 2008. The Buffalo game in particular, the offense faltered and Cutler wilted in the red zone overthrowing a wide open Brandon Stokley twice for the potential game-winning TD and eventually hitting Kawika Mitchell right in the numbers near the goal line for the decisive turnover. To say their failures had nothing to do with the 2006 draft class is false. Could that offense have been special? Maybe. But that assumes a lot. Two of the guys have had some issues with maturity and who knows if Cutler, in particular, would have turned the corner in Denver? But to completely absolve the 2006 class of blame, particularly during the 2008 season, when the offense was centered around their young QB, WR and TE, isn't really telling the whole story. Obviously the story of the Denver teams during the twilight of Shanahan's twilight was the horrid defenses. But the defense actually gave the offense a very good shot at winning against Buffalo in 2008 and it was the offense that buckled. Hopefully the team can get it going this year so we aren't beating this same horse this time next year.

The defense let the 23rd ranked offense score 30 points on them in Denver. That is giving them a very good shot at winning? Okay. I will agree that the offense didn't take advantage of all of their opportunities in that game (getting over 500 yards and getting only two TDs and three FGs is not good enough), but to say that the defense did not buckle is just wrong.

Oh, and those passes to Stokely would have tied the game, not won it.

 

[Sweet Love]

As good as the talent looks on paper, Marshall for all his talent was a disruptive presence on that team. Cutler for all his talent has a 24-29 career record. And Scheffler even under Shanahan only produced moderately at the TE position.In all honesty, I think Denver did fairly good to get the compensation they got for Marshall/Cutler players. Ask a Chicago fan if they might take that deal back? I'd say the percentage is more than it was this time last year. Marshall is TBD and he may wind up having a great career in MIA...but he's volatile. Tough to build your franchise on a volatile foundation.Count me among the seeming minority of those people who like what McDaniels is doing in DEN. A little more experience on his part might have led him to make better decisions in terms of the manner some of these decisions went down. But he recognized immediately what he could and could not work with and got maximum value.

I would be a lot more okay with him trading vets for picks if all the picks he was making weren't looking so bad.Cutler + Marshall for Kyle Orton, 2 firsts, 2 seconds, and 1 third looks pretty good. Cutler + Marshall for Kyle Orton, Robert Ayers, Alphonso Smith, Demaryius Thomas, and Tim Tebow? Not so much.

Exactly.McDaniels is purely an idiot in the Lane Kiffin mold. He drafted a work in progress WR in Thomas BEFORE Dez Bryant! He trades away 1st round draft picks for nickel backs and so on. Just so many head scratching roster and draft moves. AND to top it all off, he takes Tebow in the 1st round!!! What a maroon! I feel sorry for you Denver fans. They might possibly come in dead last in the AFC West. (Yes, I think Oakland is better than Denver...on paper).

I do have to ask since I do not understand the inner workings of the Denver regime, but why are we saying McDaniels drafted these people? Bolen (?), the owner is pretty active and they do have a GM too. I am not saying McDaniels did not have an equal say or even a majority say in who they picked, but we all know that each coach around the league gets a different amount input at the draft. What if McDaniels is one of those who gets very little? Are we unfairly juding him? Not many are crediting him for putting on a clinic at the draft in "acquiring" the picks, so why do we bash who he got? In the beginning, before he continued to be a putz, I felt sorry for Kiffin in Oakland, because he really just was a puppet.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Look - I'm not trying to argue that this draft caused the subsequent implosion - that certainly is not the case. However, that 2005 team had some glaring holes in terms of aging veterans that were unfilled and remained unfilled for a really long time to come. Let's talk about quality depth @ LB. Denver has been searching for a good MLB since Al Wilson retired. Let's talk about safety. Denver has had a pretty terrible run @ safety between Lynch and Dawkins. Let's talk about the DL - we all know that has been a revolving door of suck since Pryce walked. How about the OL - that has degraded consistently for a while. Let's talk about the revolving door @ RB.I'm going down some tangents here - let me re-focus what I'm trying to claim, and that's this: the 2006 draft, while full of some great individual players, ultimately failed to win games. IMO, they were drafted as BPA and were not necessarily brought in to address some glaring team needs. I freely acknowledge that it takes more than 7 players to win games, but I would also propose that it takes less than 7 players to divide a fan base and lead to a great coaches eventual downfall.

You're being completely irrational. Name me one draft ever where a team has gotten 7 good players to fill 7 holes. Now name ten of these drafts. That just doesn't happen. They didn't have 7 picks to fill holes with, because 95% of picks beyond the second round are guys that will never contribute. No one with a brain goes into a draft thinking "oh hey, we have this big need at LB, DE, NT, WR, QB, RB, and Safety so we'll just take a LB in the 1st, a DE in the 2nd, a NT in the 3rd, a WR in the 4th, a QB in the 5th, a RB in the 6th, and a safety in the 7th and then all our holes will be magically filled! That hasn't happened once in the entire history of the NFL, and it never will.Besides, it's not like they didn't have bigtime needs at WR and DE where two of those players that we're talking about here were drafted. It sounds like the problem you have with this draft is that they had holes at 9 positions and they didn't fill all nine of those holes with their two 1st day draft picks.Btw, your whole first paragraph above completely contradicts your own point. You say that the 2006 draft wasn't good because they didn't win games, and then in the first paragraph above you're talking about all the massive holes that they had after 2006 that they failed to fill in 2007 and going forward. That's the whole point we're making here, the 2006 draft was the ONLY good part of this team. You argued that they were a great team outside of those 2006 players, and now you're completely going back on it, like you have many of your points in this thread.

 

[az_prof]

SSOG put it correctly. McDaniels trading those players for the picks he got was ok; but the question is the players he drafted with the picks. They aren't looking so good.

Someone said that McDaniels has a four year building plan. In the NFL, year four of a four year building plan usually consists of polishing your resume and looking for a job as an assistant coach somewhere. Not too many fans or owners these days are willing to wait four years. McDaniels will get one more year after this one. If Denver doesn't make the playoffs by 2011 and show significant improvement how could you keep the guy around, especially after he dismantled a team with a solid talent core?

 

[DawnBTVS]

SSOG put it correctly. McDaniels trading those players for the picks he got was ok; but the question is the players he drafted with the picks. They aren't looking so good.

Someone said that McDaniels has a four year building plan. In the NFL, year four of a four year building plan usually consists of polishing your resume and looking for a job as an assistant coach somewhere. Not too many fans or owners these days are willing to wait four years. McDaniels will get one more year after this one. If Denver doesn't make the playoffs by 2011 and show significant improvement how could you keep the guy around, especially after he dismantled a team with a solid talent core?

Romeo Crennel had 4 seasons with Cleveland. Rod Marinelli had 3 seasons with Detroit. Mike Nolan had 3 seasons in San Francisco. Eric Mangini had 3 seasons with the NY Jets. Mangini kinda got screwed in NY but most of those teams were awful, yet those guys still had at least 3 years.If Denver doesn't make the playoffs by 2011 and show significant improvement how could you keep the guy around, especially after he dismantled a team with a solid talent core?

Well, they already have gone 8-8 against an extremely difficult schedule despite a team that was "less talented" on offense. They still have talent on offense and have quietly added great talent on defense (even if they are older). Guys like Kyle Orton, Knowshon Moreno, Eddie Royal, Brian Dawkins, Elvis Dumervil, and Jamal Williams are talented and arguably the Broncos are now more talented as a team.

The freaking mantra in Denver is, "TEAM FIRST." This is no longer looking at a couple players in Jay Cutler and Brandon Marshall and saying, "Okay. You two are young studly stars. Carry us to the playoffs on your backs, please?" This has now become a team where Guy #1 through Guy #53 is going to be told, "Do your role and be a team player and we will win games."

I understand that we all love Fantasy Football and see the star offensive names and talent. We're impressed with the gaudy statistics. It just seems that a lot of fans who admit they don't follow the situation can't get past the fact that McDaniels, GM Xanders, and Owner Pat Bowlen are looking at a 53 Man One For All, All For One mentality instead of trying to rely on 4-5 names to carry a team to greatness.

Cutler, Marshall, and Scheffler did not completely throw themselves into that team first mentality for whatever reasons. So they have been shown the door.

 

[SSOG]

I'm going down some tangents here - let me re-focus what I'm trying to claim, and that's this: the 2006 draft, while full of some great individual players, ultimately failed to win games. IMO, they were drafted as BPA and were not necessarily brought in to address some glaring team needs. I freely acknowledge that it takes more than 7 players to win games, but I would also propose that it takes less than 7 players to divide a fan base and lead to a great coaches eventual downfall.

That's just incorrect. How many games would the 2008 Denver Broncos have won without Jay Cutler? How many games would the 2009 Denver Broncos have won without Brandon Marshall and Elvis Dumervil? They didn't put together a winning season, but if you take a team that would have been 4-12 and then add a bunch of players and the team goes 8-8, then those players WON GAMES. They didn't have WINNING SEASONS, but they certainly WON GAMES. Lots of them.And Shanahan's downfall had nothing to do with the 2006 draft class and everything to do with his defensive coordinators.

That's not true. Sure, it was a fun offense to watch, but it had its warts too. The offense could move the chains, but it wasn't an efficient scoring team the 2008 season--really the year this draft class was supposed to (and came closest) putting it all together. IIRC, They were 2nd in yards-per-game, but 16th in scoring offense.

You know a big reason for that? They were dead last in the NFL in starting field position because their defense couldn't make any stops, and they put SEVEN RUNNING BACKS ON SEASON-ENDING INJURED RESERVE. In August, Tatum Bell was a massive joke on FBGs because he stole Rudi Johnson's luggage. In September, he was selling cell phones in the local mall. In December, he was Denver's first string tailback. I don't think people comprehend what the 8th string really is. A team could enter the season with 3 RBs, lose them all, sign 3 more RBs, lose them all, sign 3 more RBs, and then lose one of them, too... that's the 8th string. You don't think that has anything at all with Denver's struggles converting yards into points? How about the fact that Denver spent much of the season with only 3 offensive starters over the age of 25 (Ben Hamilton, Casey Weigmann, and Daniel Graham)? And don't forget that their placekicker was a first-year starter (Matt Prater) who was TERRIBLE down the stretch. He finished the season 25-of-34. If he was 28-of-34 instead, Denver would have jumped from 16th to 12th in scoring offense.In other words, you take an offense of 25 year olds with no NFL experience, take away every single one of their runningbacks, and give them the worst starting field position in the entire NFL, add in a struggling young placekicker... and then complain about the fact that the QB threw a lot of INTs and they had a hard time punching it into the end zone? What the 2008 Denver Broncos offense accomplished was nothing short of miraculous. That unit deserves ZERO blame for how the season played out. Did they have a bad game or two? Sure. Isn't every offense allowed a bad game or two?

Why does everyone love Cutler? He is the Jake Plummer of QB's at this time. Looks great when he is not on your team and when he is you are left with the WTF reaction towards this guy.Vandy was 11-35 NFL is 24-29 as a starteer.Look I think this guy has all the tools, but his history shows that he is not a winner and may never be.

It's funny that you made the Plummer comparison. Plummer was 39-15 as a starter for the Denver Broncos. That's a 72.2% winning percentage. For comparison, Peyton's career winning percentage is 68.2%. Elway's was 64.3%. Joe Montana's was 71.3%. Just sayin'.The point here is that there's no such thing as a guy who isn't a winner, there's just such a thing as a guy whose teammates are garbage.

I do have to ask since I do not understand the inner workings of the Denver regime, but why are we saying McDaniels drafted these people? Bolen (?), the owner is pretty active and they do have a GM too. I am not saying McDaniels did not have an equal say or even a majority say in who they picked, but we all know that each coach around the league gets a different amount input at the draft. What if McDaniels is one of those who gets very little? Are we unfairly juding him? Not many are crediting him for putting on a clinic at the draft in "acquiring" the picks, so why do we bash who he got? In the beginning, before he continued to be a putz, I felt sorry for Kiffin in Oakland, because he really just was a puppet.

It's been made clear by Bowlen and by McDaniels that the buck stops at Josh's desk for all football-related decisions. If Denver drafted someone, it's because McDaniels decided to. Denver does have a general manager, but he's really just a glorified capologist.

 

[Buffaloes]

That's not true. Sure, it was a fun offense to watch, but it had its warts too. The offense could move the chains, but it wasn't an efficient scoring team the 2008 season--really the year this draft class was supposed to (and came closest) putting it all together. IIRC, They were 2nd in yards-per-game, but 16th in scoring offense. Cutler being 2nd in INTs in 2008 had a lot to do with that ineffectiveness and much of the blame should be placed on the offense when all Denver had to do was win against Buffalo, Carolina or SD in 2008. The Buffalo game in particular, the offense faltered and Cutler wilted in the red zone overthrowing a wide open Brandon Stokley twice for the potential game-winning TD and eventually hitting Kawika Mitchell right in the numbers near the goal line for the decisive turnover. To say their failures had nothing to do with the 2006 draft class is false. Could that offense have been special? Maybe. But that assumes a lot. Two of the guys have had some issues with maturity and who knows if Cutler, in particular, would have turned the corner in Denver? But to completely absolve the 2006 class of blame, particularly during the 2008 season, when the offense was centered around their young QB, WR and TE, isn't really telling the whole story. Obviously the story of the Denver teams during the twilight of Shanahan's twilight was the horrid defenses. But the defense actually gave the offense a very good shot at winning against Buffalo in 2008 and it was the offense that buckled. Hopefully the team can get it going this year so we aren't beating this same horse this time next year.

The defense let the 23rd ranked offense score 30 points on them in Denver. That is giving them a very good shot at winning? Okay. I will agree that the offense didn't take advantage of all of their opportunities in that game (getting over 500 yards and getting only two TDs and three FGs is not good enough), but to say that the defense did not buckle is just wrong.

Oh, and those passes to Stokely would have tied the game, not won it.

Good points, and after checking the game log, you are absolutely right. I gave the defense too much credit that game and I was incorrect in saying those passes to Stokely would have won the game.

 

[Buffaloes]

And Shanahan's downfall had nothing to do with the 2006 draft class and everything to do with his defensive coordinators.

That's not true. Sure, it was a fun offense to watch, but it had its warts too. The offense could move the chains, but it wasn't an efficient scoring team the 2008 season--really the year this draft class was supposed to (and came closest) putting it all together. IIRC, They were 2nd in yards-per-game, but 16th in scoring offense.

You know a big reason for that? They were dead last in the NFL in starting field position because their defense couldn't make any stops, and they put SEVEN RUNNING BACKS ON SEASON-ENDING INJURED RESERVE. In August, Tatum Bell was a massive joke on FBGs because he stole Rudi Johnson's luggage. In September, he was selling cell phones in the local mall. In December, he was Denver's first string tailback. I don't think people comprehend what the 8th string really is. A team could enter the season with 3 RBs, lose them all, sign 3 more RBs, lose them all, sign 3 more RBs, and then lose one of them, too... that's the 8th string. You don't think that has anything at all with Denver's struggles converting yards into points? How about the fact that Denver spent much of the season with only 3 offensive starters over the age of 25 (Ben Hamilton, Casey Weigmann, and Daniel Graham)? And don't forget that their placekicker was a first-year starter (Matt Prater) who was TERRIBLE down the stretch. He finished the season 25-of-34. If he was 28-of-34 instead, Denver would have jumped from 16th to 12th in scoring offense.In other words, you take an offense of 25 year olds with no NFL experience, take away every single one of their runningbacks, and give them the worst starting field position in the entire NFL, add in a struggling young placekicker... and then complain about the fact that the QB threw a lot of INTs and they had a hard time punching it into the end zone? What the 2008 Denver Broncos offense accomplished was nothing short of miraculous. That unit deserves ZERO blame for how the season played out. Did they have a bad game or two? Sure. Isn't every offense allowed a bad game or two?

I remember the season well, SSOG, and I don't disagree that having 7 RBs hit IR and a subpar kicking performance down the stretch REALLY hampered the Broncos. I think we can agree that aside from the abysmal defense, those were the biggest problems in 2008. But I still disagree with the assessment that the 2006 draft class had nothing to do with the team's struggles that year. Cutler was 2nd in the league in INTs and key turnovers did hurt the team early on as well as late in the season. Don't get me wrong, I'm not placing all or even most of the blame on Cutler, Marshall, Kuper, Dumerville, Scheffler, et al. But to pretend that key turnovers did not lead to losses, especially down the stretch, I think, isn't telling the whole story. I still think the 2006 draft class was a boon for the franchise. Who knows what would have happened if they would have stayed? I think most Bronco fans, myself included, still wonder that. My only point in my long-winded post was that the class was not without its faults while they were in Denver. Despite being probably the brightest spots of the 2008 season, they had some problems that contributed to the 2008 collapse. That's really all I was trying to drive at with my post.

 

[moleculo]

it's become obvious to me that somehow I've switched into argue for the sake of arguing, and I'm not sure that I believe what I'm trying to claim. Rather than continuing to tilt at windmills, I'm gonna bow out gracefully and move on. It's time to move on and hold on to hope that the draft class of 2010 will put the class of 2006 to shame.

 

[GOroute]

but they have Tim Tebow now...

 

[Brothers Mayhem]

When I 1st began this thread, whether I communicated it effectively or not, there was just something about Denver having selected a group of players such as they did in that draft and not having really benefited from it that rubbed me the wrong way.

After hearing all of the arguments and taking in points that I failed to recognize - I am left asking the question - What is the point of drafting good players? I know why I would want good players if I were a HC in the NFL. Seems to me that with the draft in question here, is it not a case of "mission accomplished"? This draft satisfied a lot of needs for Denver and gave them, IMO, something to work with. Draft was successful, IMO.

There are a lot of people saying that trading those players wasn't a bad thing because of the picks gotten in return. But no matter how many picks you get, why would you trade away a "mission accomplished" for simply another opportunity to do the same? Yeah, you may get better players - odds are against it. Yeah, you may address other needs - but at the cost of recreating the needs just recently addressed.

My point is, why give up the A grade draft for nothing more than another chance for the A+ grade, but what will most likely be, at best, another A grade draft or worse? This is what I should have been asking from the onset.

Thanks everyone for an interesting read and all the fun debate.

 

[pghrob]

When I 1st began this thread, whether I communicated it effectively or not, there was just something about Denver having selected a group of players such as they did in that draft and not having really benefited from it that rubbed me the wrong way.After hearing all of the arguments and taking in points that I failed to recognize - I am left asking the question - What is the point of drafting good players? I know why I would want good players if I were a HC in the NFL. Seems to me that with the draft in question here, is it not a case of "mission accomplished"? This draft satisfied a lot of needs for Denver and gave them, IMO, something to work with. Draft was successful, IMO.There are a lot of people saying that trading those players wasn't a bad thing because of the picks gotten in return. But no matter how many picks you get, why would you trade away a "mission accomplished" for simply another opportunity to do the same? Yeah, you may get better players - odds are against it. Yeah, you may address other needs - but at the cost of recreating the needs just recently addressed. My point is, why give up the A grade draft for nothing more than another chance for the A+ grade, but what will most likely be, at best, another A grade draft or worse? This is what I should have been asking from the onset.Thanks everyone for an interesting read and all the fun debate.

You do it for the challenge.