Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
The Texans thing has been talked to death. Let's do something new.Sean Payton is the new HC. They have plenty of needs to fill. Is it Leinart? LikelyYoung? UnlikelyHawk? Good chanceWell?
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What should the Saints do with the #2 pick? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Andy Dufresne
- Start date
GreedoShotFirst
Footballguy
EG? GM? who is this?
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Wow. I should have bet the under I guess.
zamboni
Footballguy
Unless Leinart stinks up the joint during pre-draft workouts, my guess is the Saints take him.A related question is if the Saints stay at #2 and draft a QB, do they throw the guy right into the fire or sign a veteran (not Brooks) to hold the fort while the rookie holds the clipboard for a year?
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saintfool
Dead sexy
i think there is a good chance they will "punt" and drop down a few slots in the draft. payton has a reputation of rehabbing the careers of QBs - Collins and Bledsoe, for example - so he could think that Brooks is his next reclamation project. Brooks is owed $6.5 million next year with another year left on his contract. if they do drop down only a few spots, hawk would be the obvious choice. otherwise, i see them targetting another LB like greenway if they are moved to middle of the 1st round. they desperately need a playmaker at the LB position. buckwoldt, watson and fincher are a very weak bunch.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Since the number of veterans available is extremely thin, I'd think they'd throw him in right away. They're not going to start Bauman or McPhereson. They're at roughly the same experience level with less talent.
How is McAlister's rehab going? Will he be ready for the season? Not saying the Saints draft a RB, but it would be nice if he could help Leinart carry the load.
zamboni
Footballguy
The vet pool may be bigger than that. You may have guys like Collins, Kitna, Fiedler, McNair (
) out there as well. Maybe not the greatest options, but certainly someone that can teach the rook the ropes and hold down the fort.ETA: as for Deuce, if he's not 100%, that may be more reason why you'd want to have a veteran QB back there and not immediately damage a rookie QB's confidence.
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Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Collins may be a nice fit. But how many of these guys would be willing to play for only one year and then hand the reins over?Anyone good enough will want a longer term deal and anyone that would agree to a shorter contract, by default, would not be good enough.The vet pool may be bigger than that. You may have guys like Collins, Kitna, Fiedler, McNair (
If Leinart is the pick, he plays IMO.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
I don't think there SHOULD be much of a mystery here unless Leinart screws up his workouts. However, with Tom Benson and the Saints tenuous financial position combined with Leigh Steinberg as Leinart's agent, I could very easily see a situation where even though Leinart is "the guy", the Saints float contract negotiations terms out to Leinart and two or three other players and use that as leverage. In many cases, that would lead to Leinart giving in, but in this case, I think it could just as easily force New Orleans hand and lock in someone at the 2 spot who agrees to their terms.
zamboni
Footballguy
I agree that Leinart probably plays right away, but those aforementioned vets may not have much of a choice but take a one-year deal if the market isn't that strong for their services.Collins may be a nice fit. But how many of these guys would be willing to play for only one year and then hand the reins over?Anyone good enough will want a longer term deal and anyone that would agree to a shorter contract, by default, would not be good enough.The vet pool may be bigger than that. You may have guys like Collins, Kitna, Fiedler, McNair (
If Leinart is the pick, he plays IMO.
since the Saints have a pretty good offensive line in place, along with quality talent at WR and RB, I'd go with Leinart.That being said, I wouldn't be shocked if Leinart wanted to pull an Eli Manning and tried to force a trade by threatening to hold out. He might regret coming back to school for his senior year if he winds up in New Orleans.
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Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
That would be ideal for the Saints.What if they went defense instead? Even if they didn't move out of the #2 spot, they could hardly be blamed for taking someone like AJ Hawk, could they?I agree that Leinart probably plays right away, but those aforementioned vets may not have much of a choice but take a one-year deal if the market isn't that strong for their services.Collins may be a nice fit. But how many of these guys would be willing to play for only one year and then hand the reins over?Anyone good enough will want a longer term deal and anyone that would agree to a shorter contract, by default, would not be good enough.The vet pool may be bigger than that. You may have guys like Collins, Kitna, Fiedler, McNair (
If Leinart is the pick, he plays IMO.
There'd be gnashing of teeth, sure, but he's about as can't miss as it gets. The same cannot be said of Leinart or Young.
Pick up Jon Kitna and off you go.
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I don't think many NFL teams would want to pay a LB the salary that a #2 overall pick would command.That would be ideal for the Saints.What if they went defense instead? Even if they didn't move out of the #2 spot, they could hardly be blamed for taking someone like AJ Hawk, could they?I agree that Leinart probably plays right away, but those aforementioned vets may not have much of a choice but take a one-year deal if the market isn't that strong for their services.Collins may be a nice fit. But how many of these guys would be willing to play for only one year and then hand the reins over?Anyone good enough will want a longer term deal and anyone that would agree to a shorter contract, by default, would not be good enough.The vet pool may be bigger than that. You may have guys like Collins, Kitna, Fiedler, McNair (
If Leinart is the pick, he plays IMO.
There'd be gnashing of teeth, sure, but he's about as can't miss as it gets. The same cannot be said of Leinart or Young.
Pick up Jon Kitna and off you go.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I know. But desperate times call for desperate measures. N.O. is certainly in desperate times. Can they afford to miss on a guy like Leinart? I don't know.
If I were a GM I'd have a difficult time EVER drafting a QB in the first round.
Jimmy James
Footballguy
Why not keep Brooks for another year and pick Young?
GreedoShotFirst
Footballguy
Leinart has already said that he would love to go to NO
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Good one. Would Brooks mentor the young guy knowing he was going to take his job the next year?As far as teams trading up to take Leinart, who even has the combination of interest and horsepower (aka. value in exchange) to move up to #2?
3 Tennessee - No. Take whomever the first two don't.
4 New York Jets - Possible but doubtful
5 Green Bay - Ditto
6 Oakland - Strong possibility
7 San Francisco - No way
8 Buffalo - Doubtful
9 Detroit - Possible
10 Arizona - Possible
11 St. Louis - No.
12 Cleveland - No. Frye will be given a chance.
13 Baltimore - Possible. But Boller seems to have bought himself time.
It's not worth discussing beyond #13, is it? NO wouldn't move that far down.
Wadsworth
Footballguy
Leinart would seem to be the choice at this point. But the texans could change things. If they shock most of us and take the hometown hero, the saints might get some pretty impressive offers for the 2nd pick. In my mind this would be the best scenerio for the saints. I'm not sold on Leinart yet and I'd bet someone would give them a strong deal to get Bush.
Jimmy James
Footballguy
In that case, who is going to come in under this competing "pick up a FA and draft ML" line of thinking? What's in it for Brooks is what is in it for everybody else -- starting for a NFL team in 2006.I'll also note that a team beyond 13 is still in it, but I agree that that team would have to find a team in the top dozen or so to pull off a 3 way trade with in order to move up to #2. That team would have to think whoever they were going to get at #2 was a sure thing and a guy who would be an exceptional difference-maker, though.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Personally I think Vince Young has a far better chance of hurting himself in workouts than helping himself. I still think he'll be a top 5 pick no matter what, but I honestly believe once some time has passed between evaluation and the national championship game, Leinart will very clearly have a universally higher grade on all boards and the Texans will stick to their stated plan and take Bush 1st overall.
saintfool
Dead sexy
there are a number of teams that would be happy to take the #2 slot, obviously. the question would be at what price though. again would oakland, for example, part with maybe this and next year's #1 for a shot at young or leinart? i can only see them looking to drop down to take a shot at Hawk.Re: Brooks - he has 2 years left on his contract. that is ideal timing for transitioning a new franchise QB, i think. would a kitna or whomever be cheaper than the money left on brooks' contract ($14 million total)?[edit : i think he will be more expensive than other starting options] i can see this being a realistic concern, given the dearth of effective journeymen QB's in free agency. would payton think he can make brooks effective short-term perhaps?
edit to fix brooks contract info
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Diablo
Footballguy
Not exactly sure what games you were watching but that line played terrible this year and even before. Some of that could have been because of scheme though some was truly out of poor play. Adding Jamal Brown at RT will only help but losing Bentley will truly hurt. Along with that, we are overpaying for a barely average LT that is aging greatly and is poor in pass protection in Gandy. Trading down a little to add picks, cutting Brooks because his welcome is truly over, adding a free agent QB like a Collins or others and drafting Fergiuson could absolutely be on the Saints radar and allow them to win much sooner which is what they will need to draw back the fans.
saintfool
Dead sexy
These are valid concerns, I think. However, there is no way that they let Bentley leave the team. They'll franchise him, like they did with Howard, if they have to. This is a solid OL which suffered a lot from losing their training facility. You can't go from the Metairie facility, which is top of the line, to practicing in a parking lot and not expect some impact. Moreover, Gandy was being pushed for his job by the younger Stinchcomb before he went down to injury in the preseason. Even being as disrupted as they were, they still managed to be in the middle of the pack in terms of rushing yards for the season. Again, the case for dropping down is there. They have many needs and are in an enviable position in the draft.
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the Saints would be very stupid to lose Bentley. Him and Brown at least give the Saints 2 very talented young linemen to build around. Not many teams around the league are in that position.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
Yeah, he'll get tagged just like Hutchinson in Seattle will get tagged. Tagging great centers and guards is solid cap management if it can be managed.
Traders2001
Footballguy
SO easy.If Bush goes first ( I think Young should go first )Then they take Young no doubt , Leinart is a average Qb at best .
Jimmy James
Footballguy
Does a team planning to tag a center or guard have to pay him based upon the calculation for all offensive linemen or the calculation for the specific position played? It seems to me that this is the major factor that determines whether or not tagging centers and guards makes sense, and I have been advised in the past on other boards that all offensive linemen are lumped together for tag salary calculation purposes.
Nemesis
Footballguy
Kinda surprised that no one has mentioned Brad Johnson as an avail FA that could play in 2006 while mentoring and not rushing Leinart. Would probably come cheaper than aforementioned K.Collins, McNair.The vet pool may be bigger than that. You may have guys like Collins, Kitna, Fiedler, McNair (
He's not a FA. He is signed through 2008.Kinda surprised that no one has mentioned Brad Johnson as an avail FA that could play in 2006 while mentoring and not rushing Leinart. Would probably come cheaper than aforementioned K.Collins, McNair.The vet pool may be bigger than that. You may have guys like Collins, Kitna, Fiedler, McNair (
CalBear
Footballguy
Brooks is clearly better than Kitna or Fiedler, and I don't see Collins having a noticable advantage, either. McNair in his prime was better than Brooks, but at this point? Maybe New Orleans is just tired of Brooks, but it doesn't seem like they're going to find anything better than Brooks to start for this year. And I don't think they're a franchise that needs to start a rookie QB right away; they have enough on offense to be competitive if McAllister is back.I think it would be a mistake to draft Leinart and pay for a free agent QB. They have probably the best free agent QB already on the roster and familiar with the team.The vet pool may be bigger than that. You may have guys like Collins, Kitna, Fiedler, McNair (
this is a good question. I'm not certain but I would imagine that guards would have to be classified separately from tackles simply because of the huge disparity that exists in their contracts. Centers could probably be grouped with guards without causing many problems but I think they probably are treated separately as well.Otherwise, players would try to argue that a fullback with a franchise tag deserves to be paid as a top-5 RB, or a franchise safety deserves to be paid as a top 5 DB. They differentiate between DT and DEs, so they should also differentiate between interior and exterior offensive linemen.
saintfool
Dead sexy
Brooks ihas $14 million coming to him over the last 2 years of his contract. If drafting Leinart or Young, they will have tied up a lot of money in that position. Money likely better spent on other needs. A vet QB might squeeze you for half that which means it would make sense to look elsewhere.Brooks is clearly better than Kitna or Fiedler, and I don't see Collins having a noticable advantage, either. McNair in his prime was better than Brooks, but at this point? Maybe New Orleans is just tired of Brooks, but it doesn't seem like they're going to find anything better than Brooks to start for this year. And I don't think they're a franchise that needs to start a rookie QB right away; they have enough on offense to be competitive if McAllister is back.I think it would be a mistake to draft Leinart and pay for a free agent QB. They have probably the best free agent QB already on the roster and familiar with the team.The vet pool may be bigger than that. You may have guys like Collins, Kitna, Fiedler, McNair (
Jimmy James
Footballguy
I imagine it is something spelled out somewhere. I really rather doubt that it's something that has to be argued every single time this comes up. It's really more a question of which way it is. For instance, I could imagine that FBs actually are lumped in with all RBs. I can't remember seeing a FB franchised, and this would be a very good reason for that.
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
I have a theory that a deal is already in place to move the team to LA. WHy else would Benson suddenly become so interested in playing in New Orleans? One night, he's loving SA and hating on Baton Rouge, and the next he's openly embracing NO for the 2006 season.Wondering if he's thinking that it won't be long until he's back in LA again?Leinart has already said that he would love to go to NO
Bears_Man2
Footballguy
I'd trade the pick if they aren't sold on Leinart or Young. I think Tennessee is dead set up getting Vince Young at 3. If some team is nuts for Leinart/Young, the Saints could make out well trading the pick.Until he gets the shot & fails, I'll always believe McPherson has the ability to succeed as a starting QB in the NFL. My gut says they'll go after Leinart or Young at 2 however.
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Wadsworth
Footballguy
All offensive linemen are used when determining the average of the top 5 at the position for franchise tag purposes. So if the Seahawks tag Hutch or the Saints tag Bentley they will be paid like star left tackles. I can't see that Saints paying Bentley Orlando Pace money. But then again, if either Hutch or Bentley get to the open market they could sign contracts at least in the ball park of LT money. It's a tough call, but I doubt the Saints tag him.
if true, seems like a stupid rule of the CBA
Jimmy James
Footballguy
I imagine that it was something negotiated about specifically to somewhat limit the use of the tag. Owners would probably want a rule that would even allow for a difference between left tackle and right tackle while the players would prefer that anybody tagged get the average of the top 5 salaries in the game. I don't see anyting dumb about that type of compromise, but it does certainly complicate figuring things out.(ETA -- used "cap", meant "tag")
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saintfool
Dead sexy
i have a suspicion that the NFL is going to subsidize the team for the short term. they're going to give him a bigger cut of the %'s maybe. he can get the Dome or some new facility to his liking afterwards. i have to think that NOLA will go "corporate" and tourist friendly soon enough and that may mean skyboxes, PSL's and the like...
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
Thanks for article (good read). I remember having it explained differently about Hutchinson. This sounds correct though. Which means Hutch and Bentley will test the waters.
tex
Footballguy
I heard on the radio this morning that Leinart told Steinberg, that if he wanted to handle him as a client, that he would have to take 1.5 percent instead of the normal 3 percent. Take it or leave it. Leads me to believe Steinberg might try to negotiate for a bigger contract to make up for his 1.5 percent loss. Maybe scare some teams off?
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