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When was America "great?" When did we lose our country.. (1 Viewer)

Plorfu

Footballguy
...to warrant the need to "take it back?"

Was there a specific window of time and then we went off the rails? All I see is an imperfect history filled with imperfect people with varying periods of regression and progression, but I'm a stupid loser.

When, exactly, was this "sweet spot" both sides say we need to get back to? Getting back there is all the rage, so let's get cracking.

 
1941-1957.

Established ourselves as the greatest, most influential nation on the planet, ended a horrific manslaughter of people and aggression, established a world cooperative to try to maintain peace, flourished as a nation.

 
The day before Trump's name was mentioned in a newspaper article so I don't know, 1976? Plus that was the bicentennial. Muffs were hairy, weed was called "grass", and you could go see Led Zeppelin for 8 bucks. Sounds pretty great to me.

 
Lots of snide comments building up in my head, but to me, it was before I was even alive.....during WWII and shortly after. It started slowly going downhill after that and has been picking up speed rather quickly since. To the point where we compare ourselves to other countries in the ever so popular "well, at least we aren't X......" shtick.

 
I still think America is great. Things can always be improved but there's no other country I'd rather live in.

'Merica

 
1941-1957.

Established ourselves as the greatest, most influential nation on the planet, ended a horrific manslaughter of people and aggression, established a world cooperative to try to maintain peace, flourished as a nation.
Well, except for those Japanese interment camps and the Jim Crow Laws down south.

 
So its important to have horrible things happening that we can rally around. Cool. Makes me pine for the good ol days of 9/11. When things are relatively quiet we start turning on each other. Yuk! Need bigger enemies, more threatening to us and civilization as a whole to live well.

And for those citing WWII? Gonna go waaayyy out on a limb and guess you are white men?

 
1941-1957.

Established ourselves as the greatest, most influential nation on the planet, ended a horrific manslaughter of people and aggression, established a world cooperative to try to maintain peace, flourished as a nation.
Well, except for those Japanese interment camps and the Jim Crow Laws down south.
Perfect <> Great
Ok, then I guess the question should be "When was the country great for white people?"

 
America has always been great for someone like me. Raising kids, I wish family values were stronger like they appeared to be when I was growing up.

 
1941-1957.

Established ourselves as the greatest, most influential nation on the planet, ended a horrific manslaughter of people and aggression, established a world cooperative to try to maintain peace, flourished as a nation.
Well, except for those Japanese interment camps and the Jim Crow Laws down south.
look at any era and you will find stuff that deplorable and/or stupid

 
1941-1957.

Established ourselves as the greatest, most influential nation on the planet, ended a horrific manslaughter of people and aggression, established a world cooperative to try to maintain peace, flourished as a nation.
Well, except for those Japanese interment camps and the Jim Crow Laws down south.
Perfect <> Great
Ok, then I guess the question should be "When was the country great for white people?"
Nah, it's fine as posed.

I'm firmly in the "still great" camp FWIW.

 
1941-1957.

Established ourselves as the greatest, most influential nation on the planet, ended a horrific manslaughter of people and aggression, established a world cooperative to try to maintain peace, flourished as a nation.
Well, except for those Japanese interment camps and the Jim Crow Laws down south.
Perfect <> Great
Ok, then I guess the question should be "When was the country great for white people?"
Yup. This is generally what I feel is implied when politicians say we've lost our way, we need to get back to xyz, etc.

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBIMb5ZAY3g

“Can you say why America is the greatest country in the world?
It’s not the greatest country in the world. That’s my answer… [turns to a panelist] Sharon, the NEA is a loser. Yeah, it accounts for a penny out of our paycheck, but he gets to hit you with it anytime he wants. It doesn’t cost money, it costs votes. It costs airtime and column inches. You know why people don’t like liberals? Because they lose. If liberals are so ####### smart, how come they lose so ####### always? [turns to another panelist] And with a straight face, you’re gonna tell students that America is so star-spangled awesome that we’re the only ones in the world who have freedom? Canada has freedom. Japan has freedom. The UK, France, Italy, Germany, Spain, Australia, Belgium has freedom! So, 207 sovereign states in the world, like 180 of them have freedom. [turns to the student who asked the question] And yeah, you… sorority girl. Just in case you accidentally wander into a voting booth one day, there’s some things you should know. One of them is: there’s absolutely no evidence to support the statement that we’re the greatest country in the world. We’re 7th in literacy, 27th in math, 22nd in science, 49th in life expectancy, 178th in infant mortality, 3rd in median household income, number 4 in labor force and number 4 in exports. We lead the world in only three categories: number of incarcerated citizens per capita, number of adults who believe angels are real and defense spending, where we spend more than the next 26 countries combined, 25 of whom are allies. Now, none of this is the fault of a 20-year-old college student, but you, nonetheless, are, without a doubt, a member of the worst period generation period ever period, so when you ask what makes us the greatest country in the world, I don’t know what the #### you’re talking about! Yosemite?!
[silence]
It sure used to be… We stood up for what was right. We fought for moral reason. We passed laws, struck down laws, for moral reason. We waged wars on poverty, not on poor people. We sacrificed, we cared about our neighbors, we put our money where our mouths were and we never beat our chest. We built great, big things, made ungodly technological advances, explored the universe, cured diseases and we cultivated the world’s greatest artists AND the world’s greatest economy. We reached for the stars, acted like men. We aspired to intelligence, we didn’t belittle it. It didn’t make us feel inferior. We didn’t identify ourselves by who we voted for in the last election and we didn’t scare so easy. We were able to be all these things and do all these things because we were informed… by great men, men who were revered. First step in solving any problem is recognizing there is one. America is not the greatest country in the world anymore.”

 
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1941-1957.

Established ourselves as the greatest, most influential nation on the planet, ended a horrific manslaughter of people and aggression, established a world cooperative to try to maintain peace, flourished as a nation.
Well, except for those Japanese interment camps and the Jim Crow Laws down south.
To quote the great Vulcan"

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". The USA literally saved the planet for billions.

 
America has always been great for someone like me. Raising kids, I wish family values were stronger like they appeared to be when I was growing up.
Ah yes. Back when parents routinely ostracized their children due to their sexuality, or forced their children to repress their sexuality and live a lie for fear of the same. When we left children languish in orphanages and foster care rather than allowing them to be adopted by loving same-sex couples. When many parents and even some state governments rejected the very idea of forming a family with someone you loved unless you had the same color skin. Those were the days of strong family values.

 
I think we're still Great. I'm concerned about our debt and our tendency towards politicizing almost every conceivable thing, but we are a great nation.

 
America has always been great for someone like me. Raising kids, I wish family values were stronger like they appeared to be when I was growing up.
Ah yes. Back when parents routinely ostracized their children due to their sexuality, or forced their children to repress their sexuality and live a lie for fear of the same. When we left children languish in orphanages and foster care rather than allowing them to be adopted by loving same-sex couples. When many parents and even some state governments rejected the very idea of forming a family with someone you loved unless you had the same color skin. Those were the days of strong family values.
Jesus you go way overboard too much.
 
Rome had always had its fair share of bad emperors. Caligula, Nero, Commodus are such examples. But there always followed good emperors to correct their errors. At Rome's end however, there was really no good rulers. For example great generals like Stilicho were killed because the emperor feared losing his throne to them. If you kill your best generals, your army will never be as good as it could be.

Also important to the weakening of the Romans was that they began to get more and more civilized. Civilized people were not as good warriors on the battlefields as barbarians. For a long time the Romans had their own barbarians. Gauls, Illyrians, Belgians, Helvetians, Germans, etc.; they all joined the Roman legions. But soon they too were living like Romans. They enjoyed the fruits of Roman civilization and hence became less barbarous, - and less able to fight the barbarian Goths, Vandals, Sueves, etc..

Another important reason is perhaps that of Roman unity. The early Romans who built the empire stood united. By the end of course Rome had two capitals, Rome and Constantinople, each with its own emperor. But to the earlier Romans, Rome had been something special, something they served. But the later Romans only sought power for themselves. Almost every military commanders secretely had his eye on the throne and was ready to overthrow the emperor and take power himself. The armies spent a lot of time fighting each other for power in Rome, rather than fighting the enemy.

To this cataolgue of troubles one needs also to add economic problems. Rome was spending more than it could afford. The free food rations for the poor of Rome and Constantinople were costing a fortune. The Purchasing of exotic spices and silk from the orient ment that over time Rome was spending its gold on overseas luxuries. Gold which didn't return. Soon Rome didn't have enough gold to produce coins with.

And then there were the plagues. Deadly diseases brought in from the east swept across Europe, killing vast numbers among the population of the empire.

Even if the mass migration of the wild, Germanic people of the eastern plains is no longer seen as the all-important reason for Rome's demise, it naturally still is seen as one of the capital problems which caused the empire to fall.

As a last reason I'd also see the disastrous decision of emperor Valens (who was emperor of Constantinople) to allow the Visigoths to settle in Moesia.

The Roman empire's borders to the north had been the river Rhine and the river Danube. They are wide streams and therefore hard to cross. This means, the border was easy to defend. But when the Huns from the east attacked the Visigoths on the other side of the Danube, emperor Valens let them settle on the Roman side of the river. True, the Visigoths then were friends of the Romans. But that soon changed. It didn't take long and bad living conditions, poverty and starvation led the Visigoths to revolt. In the following war, the Romans no longer had a protective river from behind which to defend themelves. The enemy was settled within their own empire. - And it should be the Visigoths who eventually sacked the city of Rome itself.

So, the main points for the fall were

1. bad emperors

2. increasing civilization of the people of the empire (which means weaker soldiers)

3. Roman disunity, endless infighting

4. economic decline

5. plagues

6. mass migration

7. and the settlement of the Visigoths in Moesia
Thankfully we haven't had plagues or mass migration yet.

Trump would have us believe that the Visigoths = Muslims, but see reason #1.

 
Ah yes. Back when parents routinely ostracized their children due to their sexuality, or forced their children to repress their sexuality and live a lie for fear of the same. When we left children languish in orphanages and foster care rather than allowing them to be adopted by loving same-sex couples. When many parents and even some state governments rejected the very idea of forming a family with someone you loved unless you had the same color skin. Those were the days of strong family values.
See, you say this sarcastically, but for a lot of people, when they talk about the good old days of strong family values, this is exactly what they mean.

 
Ah yes. Back when parents routinely ostracized their children due to their sexuality, or forced their children to repress their sexuality and live a lie for fear of the same. When we left children languish in orphanages and foster care rather than allowing them to be adopted by loving same-sex couples. When many parents and even some state governments rejected the very idea of forming a family with someone you loved unless you had the same color skin. Those were the days of strong family values.
See, you say this sarcastically, but for a lot of people, when they talk about the good old days of strong family values, this is exactly what they mean.
Bingo.

 
1941-1957.

Established ourselves as the greatest, most influential nation on the planet, ended a horrific manslaughter of people and aggression, established a world cooperative to try to maintain peace, flourished as a nation.
Well, except for those Japanese interment camps and the Jim Crow Laws down south.
To quote the great Vulcan"

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". The USA literally saved the planet for billions.
Yeah, civilization on the brink is the good ol days! Hero complex much?

 
Our greatest years are ahead of us. Our goal should be to lead the planet in technology, education, health care and civil liberties. We should be the laboratories of new ideas for governing ourselves, growing wealth and making sure that all of our citizens enjoy the fruits of it.

I'm pretty glad the past is behind us.

 
Ah yes. Back when parents routinely ostracized their children due to their sexuality, or forced their children to repress their sexuality and live a lie for fear of the same. When we left children languish in orphanages and foster care rather than allowing them to be adopted by loving same-sex couples. When many parents and even some state governments rejected the very idea of forming a family with someone you loved unless you had the same color skin. Those were the days of strong family values.
See, you say this sarcastically, but for a lot of people, when they talk about the good old days of strong family values, this is exactly what they mean.
I'd like not to make that assumption about avoiding injuries' post and would prefer that he explain what he meant before jumping to conclusions.

 
Ah yes. Back when parents routinely ostracized their children due to their sexuality, or forced their children to repress their sexuality and live a lie for fear of the same. When we left children languish in orphanages and foster care rather than allowing them to be adopted by loving same-sex couples. When many parents and even some state governments rejected the very idea of forming a family with someone you loved unless you had the same color skin. Those were the days of strong family values.
See, you say this sarcastically, but for a lot of people, when they talk about the good old days of strong family values, this is exactly what they mean.
I'd like not to make that assumption about avoiding injuries' post and would prefer that he explain what he meant before jumping to conclusions.
I don't think that's what he meant, but whether he did or not those things were happening. There's a tendency to gloss over the sins of the past when people look back, which is why someone else rightly highlighted the phrase "appeared to be" in his post.

Anyway, I think it's obvious that any era before we invented and widely distributed hand-held devices capable of delivering on demand porn videos would be automatically disqualified, so that pretty much just leaves the last 5-6 years.

 
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Ah yes. Back when parents routinely ostracized their children due to their sexuality, or forced their children to repress their sexuality and live a lie for fear of the same. When we left children languish in orphanages and foster care rather than allowing them to be adopted by loving same-sex couples. When many parents and even some state governments rejected the very idea of forming a family with someone you loved unless you had the same color skin. Those were the days of strong family values.
See, you say this sarcastically, but for a lot of people, when they talk about the good old days of strong family values, this is exactly what they mean.
I'd like not to make that assumption about avoiding injuries' post and would prefer that he explain what he meant before jumping to conclusions.
To clarify, I'm not accusing AI of this. He seems like a decent fellow.

 
...to warrant the need to "take it back?"

Was there a specific window of time and then we went off the rails? All I see is an imperfect history filled with imperfect people with varying periods of regression and progression, but I'm a stupid loser.

When, exactly, was this "sweet spot" both sides say we need to get back to? Getting back there is all the rage, so let's get cracking.
We were great when we taxed the upper brackets at 90%.

 
Ah yes. Back when parents routinely ostracized their children due to their sexuality, or forced their children to repress their sexuality and live a lie for fear of the same. When we left children languish in orphanages and foster care rather than allowing them to be adopted by loving same-sex couples. When many parents and even some state governments rejected the very idea of forming a family with someone you loved unless you had the same color skin. Those were the days of strong family values.
See, you say this sarcastically, but for a lot of people, when they talk about the good old days of strong family values, this is exactly what they mean.
I'd like not to make that assumption about avoiding injuries' post and would prefer that he explain what he meant before jumping to conclusions.
To clarify, I'm not accusing AI of this. He seems like a decent fellow.
That's why I'm not rushing to judgment, either. Even though the phrase "family values" is a phrase that inherently sets me on alert. Powerful people have used that phrase in the past to mean that they wished to deny people outside societal norms their full and equal rights.

 
Changes in entropy can never be negative over time. One can only hope to partially arrest the progress. Our Constitutional Republic has held up well in that regard so far but pressures both internal and external are mounting.

I would submit that the United States going forward will be so hamstrung by the trillions of dollars in debt it has incurred and the Balkanization of its society by identity politics that any consensus needed to affect needed changes of any kind are going to become increasingly difficult. And despite amazing advances in communication technology we are becoming more and more recalcitrant as a society over how to proceed regarding even the simplest of issues. At present, I don't see anything on the horizon changing that.

Are America's best days behind us? Almost certainly. That doesn't mean that there won't be great days ahead but the nature of all human civilizations has been progressively towards chaos and dissolution over time. Those who claim otherwise do so in the face of both thousands of years of recorded history and the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

 
You can stream porn in the bathroom of a sky chariot while in the warm embrace of a percocet. But give me the pre-anesthesia good ol days.

 
Fellatio was extremely taboo in this country until after WWII, and even then probably wasn't reasonably widespread until the 60's. So you have to consider that.

Also this whole "greatest" stuff people spew in this country is just dumb. People in Belgium are happy as clams. They have a decent standard of living, lots of time off from work, quality beer, waffles, sidewalk cafes, gorgeous blonde women, the list goes on. And that's just one example. We've always got to be all up in everyone else's ####, and we have a target on our backs as a result. And all the fear, nonstop work, traffic, materialism etc. makes people crazy and shallow and stupid.

 

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