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WHICH WR WAS THE GOAT OF ALL TIME? (1 Viewer)

Which WR

  • Jerry Rice

    Votes: 151 86.8%

  • Randy Moss

    Votes: 23 13.2%
  • Total voters
    174
Believe if you factor in such things as size, determination, time period, and natural abilities  John Jefferson in the least deserves honorable mention  As much as I had hoped that E. Campbell had went to the Cowboys  I was hoping to see GB draft JJ   Yeah the Cowboys did get Dorsett who played Great  Just as the Packers Lofton had a Great career  However imho had the chips fell a bit differently I believe we would at least be talking two Goats which we have seen actually play

Now I know JJ did eventually play for GB and couldn't really surpass and/or equal performances by HOF Lofton  I believe its a combination of several things none of which is a relation to potential  JJ was limited by both Coaching and QB abilities in GB  In comparison it could be viewed like what could be expected IF AB we're to play alongside OBJ for the Giants  Sort of an actual 1A and 1B but 1A is the hometown's Fav 

* On a side note, I recently saw the Texas Rose referred to as a slower Jim Brown  Guess it's possible having not seen him play  Earl could go past you or through you is all I know  

 Moss a Freak!  

"I had been in the league five years at that point. I had seen Deion Sanders, and obviously I had played with Cris Carter and been on the same field as Jerry Rice. Just so many great players. And s--t, back in college I was actually in a race at the same time with Carl Lewis. So I had seen a lot of great athletes. … I had never seen anything like that.

"This was the best player, maybe the best athlete I had ever seen in person."  https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2758933-the-randy-moss-legacy-a-player-who-inspired-fear-like-no-other

Personally I'd almost hope to factor in actual time period of play  As much as I enjoyed seeing Moss wave his hand being open seconds before any separation...  Think it's best to consider the physicality of play  https://youtu.be/TdcifUHmxLY?t=27s

https://youtu.be/Jz59IkWOUf0?t=6m56s

Now if you want to factor in work ethic and such things as making players better around you (R. Lott)  I guess you almost have to give credit for toe tapping a catch before going out of bounds and/or avoiding making the highlight reel as far as being hit  While then theres a guy I didn't like whose the focal point of the discussion...

// Edit Goat also have the best hands?  Again I'm also referencing the time period!  (WR bell may be rung before they even see the ball)  At that point in time I do not see the QB in the huddle speaking of a play in the middle w/ Rice stating "hold my beer"  Now in all actuality, JJ's 1st Season involved rule changes for safety but it was still far from the current state of play

 
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cobalt_27 said:
To be fair, between 1990-1997, Packers used 1st or 2nd round picks on DBs 6 out of those 8 years.
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Fair enough. However, using your 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the same draft sends a pretty direct objective. They were doing everything they could to stop Moss. 

 
bostonfred said:
Rice played most of his career with hall of fame quarterbacks including the best quarterback in the history of the game up to that point and set almost every receiving record there is. 

But almost as impressive is that in one season with Brady, Moss immediately set the single season touchdown record and helped Brady do the same.  From randy hey nice to meet you I'm tom to 18-1 with the highest scoring offense in nfl history in 9 months. 
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I do not agree that Moss's 2007 season is "almost as impressive" as Rice's entire career and all of the records he set, which is what you say here.

First of all, as others have mentioned, if we focus on regular season only, Rice's 1987 season of 1129 YFS and 23 TDs in 12 games (due to a strike) is more impressive than Moss's 2007 season of 98/1493/23 in 16 games. Rice had 23 of his team's 55 offensive TDs in 1987, compared to Moss's 23 of 67 offensive TDs.

More importantly, we should include the postseason in this discussion. Including the postseason, Moss had 105/1587/24 receiving plus 1/14/0 rushing in 19 games in 2007 with GOAT Brady at QB and GOAT Belichick at HC. He had 5/62/1 receiving in the Super Bowl, and his team lost.

IMO Rice had two seasons that were more impressive, all things considered:

  1. In 1989, Rice had 101/1800/22 receiving and 5/33/0 rushing in 19 games with Montana/Young at QB and Siefert at HC. He had 7/148/3 in the Super Bowl, and his team won.
  2. In 1994, Rice had 128/1732/17 receiving and 8/103/2 rushing in 19 games with Young at QB and Siefert at HC. He had 10/149/3 in the Super Bowl, and his team won.
Montana and Young are clearly among the best QBs of all time, but Brady > Montana > Young. And there is no comparison of head coaches... Belichick >>>>>>>>>> Seifert.

So peak season discussion goes to Rice, as does most every other form of comparison.

bostonfred said:
Rice's prime was longer,  Moss's was better.
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I don't believe this is true, but I am interested in hearing how you define their primes. What years would you characterize as primes for each of them?

 
matuski said:
Not for 1 game.  Starting fresh today, to begin a career.

You would draft several WRs ahead of him starting over today.  In that way, I don't think there is any doubt several of the freaks we have seen over the last 20 years would be considered better players.
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You are making an implicit assumption that Rice would be the exact same if he was starting today as when he was starting in 1985. I think that is a faulty premise. His work ethic is renowned, and training methods are better today. College passing offenses are also better today. He would be a better player entering the NFL now than he was then, when he was the 16th pick in the first round.

 
Just Win Baby said:
I do not agree that Moss's 2007 season is "almost as impressive" as Rice's entire career and all of the records he set, which is what you say here.

First of all, as others have mentioned, if we focus on regular season only, Rice's 1987 season of 1129 YFS and 23 TDs in 12 games (due to a strike) is more impressive than Moss's 2007 season of 98/1493/23 in 16 games. Rice had 23 of his team's 55 offensive TDs in 1987, compared to Moss's 23 of 67 offensive TDs.

More importantly, we should include the postseason in this discussion. Including the postseason, Moss had 105/1587/24 receiving plus 1/14/0 rushing in 19 games in 2007 with GOAT Brady at QB and GOAT Belichick at HC. He had 5/62/1 receiving in the Super Bowl, and his team lost.

IMO Rice had two seasons that were more impressive, all things considered:

  1. In 1989, Rice had 101/1800/22 receiving and 5/33/0 rushing in 19 games with Montana/Young at QB and Siefert at HC. He had 7/148/3 in the Super Bowl, and his team won.
  2. In 1994, Rice had 128/1732/17 receiving and 8/103/2 rushing in 19 games with Young at QB and Siefert at HC. He had 10/149/3 in the Super Bowl, and his team won.
Montana and Young are clearly among the best QBs of all time, but Brady > Montana > Young. And there is no comparison of head coaches... Belichick >>>>>>>>>> Seifert.

So peak season discussion goes to Rice, as does most every other form of comparison.

I don't believe this is true, but I am interested in hearing how you define their primes. What years would you characterize as primes for each of them?
Click to expand...
I’d have to go back and look again, but we know Moss’s best season was 2007 and that Rice’s 1995 season matched/exceeded it.  And as you pointed out, totally forgot this one, but 1987 needs to be up there as well.

But, is there a 2-year window where we can say Moss’s peak was better than any of Rice’s?  How about three-year window?  Four-year?  Five?  

Nothing Moss did comes close, except for that single 2007 season...and Rice still eclipses him with, not one, but TWO better seasons.

Peak prime and longevity both go to Rice.

 
I've sort of enjoyed the thread, because of all the reminders of how truly great Jerry Rice was.

But I don't think I'll be coming back in because Rice vs. Moss isn't really even up for discussion.  Rice vs. any WR isn't up for discussion.

eta: You're talking about the guy named the #1 PLAYER of all time in the NFL's Top 100.

 
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Cjw_55106 said:
Fair enough. However, using your 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the same draft sends a pretty direct objective. They were doing everything they could to stop Moss. 
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Do you really think they do that if the Vikings didn't also have Chris Carter? 

 
bostonfred said:
Rice played most of his career with hall of fame quarterbacks including the best quarterback in the history of the game up to that point and set almost every receiving record there is. 

But almost as impressive is that in one season with Brady, Moss immediately set the single season touchdown record and helped Brady do the same.  From randy hey nice to meet you I'm tom to 18-1 with the highest scoring offense in nfl history in 9 months. 

As impressive as Rice's records are - and it's incredible that so many have survived not only this passing era but the longer seasons - maybe the most impressive thing he did was come back from an ACL injury and play again the same season.  And he scored a touchdown. 

Rice's prime was longer,  Moss's was better. If Moss had worked as hard as rice he could have passed him. He didn't.  The answer is rice 
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This...

As far as the ACL comeback, if I remember correctly, he cracked his knee cap in that comeback game.  I remember reading the cap thins after the injury and he hadn't given it enough time...  So, perhaps there was a downside to the quick turn-around.

The Rice/Moss comparison actually started before Moss ever played an NFL down.  In Moss' rookie season they issued football cards that paired a star with a rookie on the "B" side of the card.  Elways was paired with Manning. Rice and Moss were a combo.  I still have a few in a box somewhere.  Not a card collector, but I did save Moss rookie cards, etc. because it was clear that he would be special.

I concur with BostonFred above though, Moss COULD have been better.  He had so much natural, physical talent that what he didn't do is held against him still.  Expectations were that high... scary really

Star side

Rookie side

 
cobalt_27 said:
Not buying this.  Rice and Owens ahead of him, sure.  But, not Fitz, Carter, Harrison, et al., above Moss.
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Didn't say anything about Fitz, Carter, or Harrison. Elite WR's existed before Jerry Rice. Don Hutson and Lance Alworth are unquestionably better than Moss(or Owens for that matter) I'd take Antonio Brown over him too, and Brown is only going to make the gap bigger.

 
Just Win Baby said:
I do not agree that Moss's 2007 season is "almost as impressive" as Rice's entire career and all of the records he set, which is what you say here.

First of all, as others have mentioned, if we focus on regular season only, Rice's 1987 season of 1129 YFS and 23 TDs in 12 games (due to a strike) is more impressive than Moss's 2007 season of 98/1493/23 in 16 games. Rice had 23 of his team's 55 offensive TDs in 1987, compared to Moss's 23 of 67 offensive TDs.

More importantly, we should include the postseason in this discussion. Including the postseason, Moss had 105/1587/24 receiving plus 1/14/0 rushing in 19 games in 2007 with GOAT Brady at QB and GOAT Belichick at HC. He had 5/62/1 receiving in the Super Bowl, and his team lost.

IMO Rice had two seasons that were more impressive, all things considered:

  1. In 1989, Rice had 101/1800/22 receiving and 5/33/0 rushing in 19 games with Montana/Young at QB and Siefert at HC. He had 7/148/3 in the Super Bowl, and his team won.
  2. In 1994, Rice had 128/1732/17 receiving and 8/103/2 rushing in 19 games with Young at QB and Siefert at HC. He had 10/149/3 in the Super Bowl, and his team won.
Montana and Young are clearly among the best QBs of all time, but Brady > Montana > Young. And there is no comparison of head coaches... Belichick >>>>>>>>>> Seifert.

So peak season discussion goes to Rice, as does most every other form of comparison.

I don't believe this is true, but I am interested in hearing how you define their primes. What years would you characterize as primes for each of them?
Click to expand...
Well said. :yes:  

It is also worth pointing out that Moss was playing alongside Cris Carter, also one of the best WRs ever, early in his career.  Having a fellow HOF next to you sure does help when it comes to what coverages defenses can play (which Rice also had late in his career when he played alongside Tim Brown).  Carter and Jake Reed were already considered one of the best 1-2 punches in the league when Moss was added to the mix (and they had a top RB).  There is no denying Moss' talent and production, but he couldn't have gotten a better situation upon entering the league. 

Also, Rice led the league in receiving yards 6 times and TD catches 6 times, while Moss never led the league in receiving yards, while leading the league in TD catches 5 times, so not sure how that translates to Moss having a better prime. 

 
Just Win Baby said:
You are making an implicit assumption that Rice would be the exact same if he was starting today as when he was starting in 1985. I think that is a faulty premise. His work ethic is renowned, and training methods are better today. College passing offenses are also better today. He would be a better player entering the NFL now than he was then, when he was the 16th pick in the first round.
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Work ethic is very romantic.  Work ethic doesn't mean much versus the physical abilities of Calvin and Moss.

He can't run up a hill or eat better and grow 3 inches, gain 35 pounds, run a 4.3 40, and have a 40" vertical.  

No way no how you would draft Rice today over those two today.. maybe add a couple more.

 
cobalt_27 said:
No way in hell I’m taking anyone over Rice.  All great receivers you named and none of them should be picked ahead of Rice today.
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I get we are caught up in nostalgia, and his stats are undeniable.  He is the greatest WR ever.  But no, an NFL team is not drafting Jerry Rice if Calvin and Moss are there today.  Maybe add the likes of Julio.

Based on ability, or picking the "best" player/athlete.  Obviously Moss had other questions that made him drop, but I'm talking about the player.

 
matuski said:
Work ethic is very romantic.  Work ethic doesn't mean much versus the physical abilities of Calvin and Moss.

He can't run up a hill or eat better and grow 3 inches, gain 35 pounds, run a 4.3 40, and have a 40" vertical.  

No way no how you would draft Rice today over those two today.. maybe add a couple more.
Click to expand...


matuski said:
I get we are caught up in nostalgia, and his stats are undeniable.  He is the greatest WR ever.  But no, an NFL team is not drafting Jerry Rice if Calvin and Moss are there today.  Maybe add the likes of Julio.

Based on ability, or picking the "best" player/athlete.  Obviously Moss had other questions that made him drop, but I'm talking about the player.
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:lmao:

 
cobalt_27 said:
Yeah, I suppose on the superficial measurable you’re probably right.
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Otherwise, Rice had all of the advantages.  Dynasty teams.  2 Hall of Fame QBs.  Off the top of my head his mid 90s teams may have had more Hall of Famers than the entire history of the Detroit franchise.  Played well, well past his decline (similar to the all time rushing leader).  

Calvin got drafted by the Lions.  If we are holding these things against a WR...  :shrug:

 
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Again - Rice is the greatest WR of all time.  I don't think that is debatable.  If drafting today I just think he would go 3-5.

 
matuski said:
Otherwise, Rice had all of the advantages.  Dynasty teams.  2 Hall of Fame QBs.  Off the top of my head his mid 90s teams may have had more Hall of Famers than the entire history of the Detroit franchise.  Played well, well past his decline (similar to the all time rushing leader).  

Calvin got drafted by the Lions.  If we are holding these things against a WR...  :shrug:
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Still focused on superficial analysis, I see.  

 
Also - I suppose that is an agreement by you that at least some teams would.  I can live with that compromise.  Have a good Sunday @Cobalt 27

 
Scouts can salivate over someone's 40, but there is a difference between combine speed and game speed.  Rice was never the fastest WR, but his game speed and quickness was always something to behold. 

 
matuski said:
Can't tell if serious.
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Serious. Your boy Calvin couldn't do half of what Rice could do. That's why he didn't. If he could, he would have. He was a WR. His goal was to do what Rice could do. 

Neither Moss, nor TO wanted to retire. They both ink they can still play. Guess what, the league doesn't think they can. Rice still could at their retirement age. There's something else Rice could do that they couldn't. Add that to the list of every receiving record. 

You're too hung up on physical tools. For one game at their very best nobody could beat David Boston! He could do everything anyone else could do! Just look at him! 

 
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