Who had the better career? (1 Viewer)

[OddibeMcD]

Player A:

All-Pro in 100% of seasons played

Led league in receptions 8 times

Led league in receiving yards 7 times

Led league in receiving TD's 9 times

In best receiving yard season, had more receiving yardage than 40% of teams in the league

In best reception season, had more receptions than 40% of teams in the league

In best receiving TD season, had more receiving TD's than 80% of teams in the league

Won 3 Championships

Player B:

All-Pro in 60% of seasons played

Led league in receptions 2 times

Led league in receiving yards 6 times

Led league in receiving TD's 6 times

In best receiving yard season, had more receiving yardage than 0% of teams in the league

In best reception season, had more receptions than 0% of teams in the league

In best receiving TD season, had more receiving TD's than 50% of teams in the league

Won 3 Championships

Football reference is awesome!

 

[Bankerguy]

Ummmmmmm A?

However would want more info.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I am going to guess that Jerry Rice is Player B, right?

Edit: Player B is Jerry Rice. And Player A is Don Hutson.

 

[harrycarey]

Isn't it beyond obvious?

 

[yellowdog]

Shouldn't we at least be able to compare A to B rather than comparing them to the rest of the league at the time they played?

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Is this a Don Hutson v, Jerry Rice Thread?

 

[OddibeMcD]

Ummmmmmm A?However would want more info.

What other info would you like? The bump of the Moss v. Rice thread got me thinking about this and with the overhaul of football reference, the stats are out there. What always gets to me is that there is debate over the #2 WR of all time when I still think there is a debate over #1. I'd go with Rice because of his unmatched longevity, but IMO, the debate for the ranking of WR's starts with who is #3, not who is #2.

 

[yellowdog]

Player B had 1 - 1000 yd season

Player B had 10 + TDs 3 times

You can't compare players from the 30s and 40s to Jerry Rice.

 

[OddibeMcD]

Is this a Don Hudson v, Jerry Rice Thread?

I know there have been others in the past, but Hutson's dominance needs to be continually shown.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Hutson's accomplishments were far more extraordinary for his era than were Rice's for his.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Is this a Don Hudson v, Jerry Rice Thread?

I know there have been others in the past, but Hutson's dominance needs to continually shown.

I'm O.K with that.

 

[OddibeMcD]

Player B had 1 - 1000 yd seasonPlayer B had 10 + TDs 3 timesYou can't compare players from the 30s and 40s to Jerry Rice.

This is the argument, that football has changed too much, but I think there are problems with this argument.1) Where is the line drawn about what we can and cannot compare? (The classic slippery slope argument.) If we have to throw out the 30's and the 40's, should we discount everything before the development of the WCO? What about the vertical passing of the '99 Rams? The evolution of the FB from a ball-carrier to a blocker? To say that there is an arbitrary cut-off based on changes to the game means there has to be some point where the game changed in such a way that the two sports are so dissimilar as to be incomparable. I do not believe this has happened.Todraw an analogy, this would be similar to a list of greatest baseball players that leaves off Babe Ruth, or a list of greatest NBA centers that excludes George Mikan.2) This post is a direct proof that we can compare players from the 30's and 40's to modern-day players. The stats are out there. With the SIvault opening, it is even possible to see what some of the people who still remember Hutson playing had to say on his game. There are more and more resources available that make these exercises in comparison possible, if never able to be settled.

 

[yellowdog]

I'm not downplaying Hutson's accomplishments at all here. His best year, he had 17 TD receptions. That number was matched 9 years later, and again in another 10 years. It took 20 years to match Rice's 22 TDs. There are ways to skew the numbers either way to make your arguement. The only thing you can say for sure was that Hutson was the best in his time, and Rice was the best in his.

 

[OddibeMcD]

I'm not downplaying Hutson's accomplishments at all here. His best year, he had 17 TD receptions. That number was matched 9 years later, and again in another 10 years. It took 20 years to match Rice's 22 TDs. There are ways to skew the numbers either way to make your arguement. The only thing you can say for sure was that Hutson was the best in his time, and Rice was the best in his.

Agreed. It was amazing to grow up watching Jerry Rice and I wish I could have seen all the greats play. I couldn't, so I have to accept the words of someone who has.

I saw Hutson in his early years, the 1930s, when he played left end on defense. How was he as a pass rusher? Don't ask. On sweeps and traps he gave ground and did what he had to do without trying to unzip anybody. Later, they moved him to defensive right halfback.His helmet rode high on his head, and he seemed a little awkward at times, an Ichabod Crane, until he was in full flight. Then he was a gazelle. He usually played the short side on the single wing, and when he was in tight he would occasionally have to block a tackle. I watched him take one of those big guys down with the strangest-looking block I had ever seen. He threw a head fake, turned his back, flipped one leg in the air and made contact with his butt and back, a sort of reverse, reverse-body block. My god, I thought, what planet did he learn that one on? But his guy dropped. I saw him go back into coverage and break up a pass, and I saw him intercept one, and then on the sixth play of the highlight reel, there it was. The play that was worth the trip.The Packers were playing the Giants. Clarke Hinkle, the fullback, took a direct snap. He scrambled—two defenders were in his face—and threw the ball, sidearm. Hutson was running a down-and-in. The Giants' Tuffy Leemans went up for the ball with him. Hutson did a scissors kick in the air, up, up—and stayed up, like Michael Jordan. With his body fully extended, Hutson snatched the ball away from Leemans, came down running and glided in for the score, a 62-yard touchdown. It was over in an instant. Smooth, quick, decisive. Eleven years of that. Ninety-nine touchdowns.Two plays later Hutson ran a deep sideline route. Tailback Cecil Isbell threw the ball, not well. It was behind Hutson, the defensive back was screening him off. With his momentum carrying him the other way, Hutson reached back, reached, reached—his arms seemed five feet long—reached past the defender, made the catch, kept his balance and scored. I ran the play back, frame by frame. It was an impossible catch. I've only seen one other like it: Lynn Swann's against the Cowboys in the '76 Super Bowl.I watched Hutson for two hours. I saw him outjump two or three defenders, R.C. Owens-style, on the goal line, and I saw him catch deep passes so smoothly you couldn't believe it had happened.Then I saw him toward the end of his career, in '43 and '44. The defense double-and triple-covered Hutson and sometimes chopped him down at the line of scrimmage. Still, he led the NFL in catches both those years. I wondered what his numbers would have been like if he had had a Baugh or a Luck-man throwing to him.

 

[14U2NV]

Jerry Rice = THE G.O.A.T.

Don Hutson = Good/Great player in his era.

Moss was the only receiver I feared of taking that title from Rice when he came into the league. Argument: Rice produces in big games!!!

 

[OddibeMcD]

Don Hutson = Good/Great player in his era.

This is why these Don Hutson threads crop up every now and then. Do you realize that Hutson set the single season receiving TD record 5 times. By the time that Hutson retired the record for TD receptions in a season had gone from 5 to 17. This is the equivalent of Jerry Rice taking the record from Mark Clayton's 18 to 60+. In receiving yards, Hutson nearly doubled the record. In receptions, the record before Hutson was 26, after Hutson 74, nearly triple the output. Furthermore, Hutson's best season was in 1942 and he retired in 1945. His reception record was broken in 1949, his receiving yardage record was broken in 1951, his receiving TD record was broken in 1984 (tied in 1951 and 1961). Rice never had the reception record, his yardage record is still going strong and his TD record lasted for 20 years. Both players defined their eras and were heads and shoulders above their contemporaries. Hutson defined the WR position.

 

[14U2NV]

Both players defined their eras and were heads and shoulders above their contemporaries. Hutson defined the WR position.

RICE re-defined it!

 

[49erBamBam52]

Player B had 1 - 1000 yd seasonPlayer B had 10 + TDs 3 timesYou can't compare players from the 30s and 40s to Jerry Rice.

This is the argument, that football has changed too much, but I think there are problems with this argument.1) Where is the line drawn about what we can and cannot compare? (The classic slippery slope argument.) If we have to throw out the 30's and the 40's, should we discount everything before the development of the WCO? What about the vertical passing of the '99 Rams? The evolution of the FB from a ball-carrier to a blocker? To say that there is an arbitrary cut-off based on changes to the game means there has to be some point where the game changed in such a way that the two sports are so dissimilar as to be incomparable. I do not believe this has happened.Todraw an analogy, this would be similar to a list of greatest baseball players that leaves off Babe Ruth, or a list of greatest NBA centers that excludes George Mikan.2) This post is a direct proof that we can compare players from the 30's and 40's to modern-day players. The stats are out there. With the SIvault opening, it is even possible to see what some of the people who still remember Hutson playing had to say on his game. There are more and more resources available that make these exercises in comparison possible, if never able to be settled.

How about the addition of proper headgear as a defining line...

 

[OddibeMcD]

How about the addition of proper headgear as a defining line...

I'm :normed: trying to figure out when that was and what constitutes "proper headgear." Any helmet, plastic helmet, nose guard, BT, double bars, triple bars, masks, cages, or "birdcages?"

Helmet history

I'm not counting out anyone who was this good:

''For the next 10 years,'' said George Halas, the Bears' coach, ''Hutson was doing that sort of thing to every club in the National Football League. I just concede him two touchdowns a game, and I hope we can score more.''

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

Good example of selectively pulling statistics to make a case. This is why people are skeptical of statistics, as they should be whenever making a decision. Anything relevant missing?

When comparing receivers it seems more natural to tend to look at number of catches, yards and TD's (which are conveniently absent from the OP). Throw in all-pro selections and championships, those are valid. But the "led more than 80% of the league" or whatever depends on the era and a host of other factors. And the percentage of years as an all-pro is also selective filtering, why not just list number of times as an all-pro?

Player A:

G GS Rec Yds Y/R TD

116 60 488 7991 16.4 99

11 All-Pro Selections

Won 3 Championships

Player B:

G GS Rec Yds Y/R TD

303 284 1549 22895 14.8 197

12 All-Pro Selections

Won 3 Championships

I'll take B. Not diminishing Hutson, or his era, or whatever. I just want more complete information than what was provided in the OP before deciding.

 

[Ron_Mexico]

Hutson's accomplishments were far more extraordinary for his era than were Rice's for his.

you are correct, sir.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Break down their statistics per game for catches, yards, yards per catch, and touchdowns per game and hutson is a bieast even against the modern pass happy era, and he came from a non-throwing, mug the reciever era.

 

[49erBamBam52]

Good example of selectively pulling statistics to make a case. This is why people are skeptical of statistics, as they should be whenever making a decision. Anything relevant missing?When comparing receivers it seems more natural to tend to look at number of catches, yards and TD's (which are conveniently absent from the OP). Throw in all-pro selections and championships, those are valid. But the "led more than 80% of the league" or whatever depends on the era and a host of other factors. And the percentage of years as an all-pro is also selective filtering, why not just list number of times as an all-pro?Player A:G GS Rec Yds Y/R TD 116 60 488 7991 16.4 99 11 All-Pro SelectionsWon 3 ChampionshipsPlayer B:G GS Rec Yds Y/R TD 303 284 1549 22895 14.8 197 12 All-Pro SelectionsWon 3 ChampionshipsI'll take B. Not diminishing Hutson, or his era, or whatever. I just want more complete information than what was provided in the OP before deciding.

The simple fact that Rice holds more records, and held them for longer (some of which will NEVER be broken) is enough for me... regardless of era

 

[OddibeMcD]

The simple fact that Rice holds more records, and held them for longer (some of which will NEVER be broken) is enough for me... regardless of era

See, again this is why Hutson needs to be brought up.NFL Network's top ten records that will never be broken.

10 - 7 Sacks in one game - Derrick Thomas

9 - 10 straight championship games - Otto Graham

8 - Undefeated season - Miami Dolphins

7 - 29 consecutive years coaching the same team - Tom Landry

6 - 18 straight wins away - 49ers

5 - 8 season leading the league in TDs - Don Hutson

4 - 26 consecutive loses - Tampa Bay

3 - 2??+ consecutive games started - Brett Favre

2 - 47 consecutive games with a passing TD - Johnny Unitas

1 - 347 wins - Don Shula

Hutson still holds 8 NFL records:

Most seasons leading league in pass receptions (8), Most consecutive seasons leading league in pass receptions (5), Most seasons leading league in pass receiving yards gained (7), Most consecutive seasons leading league in pass receiving yards gained (4), Most seasons leading league in pass receiving touchdowns (9), Most consecutive seasons leading league in pass receiving touchdowns (5), Most seasons leading league in scoring (5), and Most consecutive seasons leading league in scoring (5) (Source: NFL Record and fact book).

Jerry Rice holds 8 NFL records:

Most Seasons, 50 or More Pass Receptions; Most Consecutive Games, Pass Receptions; Most Yards Gained, Career; Most Seasons, 1,000 or More Yards, Pass Receiving; Most Yards Gained, Season; Most Games, 200 or More Yards Pass Receiving, Season; Most Touchdowns, Career; Most Consecutive Games, Touchdowns; Most TD's, Game.

One guy retired in 1945, the other in 2002. According to the NFL they hold the same number of records in 2008. Want to retract that statement?Edit: Just so I am not accused of being partisan, Rice actually has 9, I missed most yards from scrimmage, career.

 

[FUBAR]

Hutson's accomplishments were far more extraordinary for his era than were Rice's for his.

you are correct, sir.

Complete dominance of an era vs. exceptional career.

 

[gianmarco]

This is how mind-boggling what Rice did at the WR position.

He is #1 in receiving yds with 22895. That is 50% MORE than #2 ALL TIME. (Tim Brown with 14,934)

He is #1 in receiving TDs with 195. That is 50% MORE than #2 ALL TIME. (Cris Carter with 130)

He is #1 in receptions with 1549. That is almost 50% MORE than #2 ALL TIME (Cris Carter with 1101).

His numbers are staggering. Marvin Harrison is going to be 36 this year. We know how great a WR he is and how he's played on an elite passing team with Manning throwing to him for most of it. He doesn't sniff Rice's #'s even while playing at an elite level until the age of 35. He would need to play another HALF of his career (6 more yrs) at the same elite pace to approach Rice's #'s.

He would need 66 more TDs--(Hines Ward only has 65 his entire career. He's #39 all-time on the TD list)

He would need almost 9000 more receiving yds (more than H. Ward or Joe Horn had in their careers. #40 all-time didn't even have 9000 yds)

He would need 507 more receptions--(Donald Driver only has 503 career receptions. At least that's only good for #96 all-time)

His numbers are on par with what Gretzky accomplished in the hockey world and what Tiger is currently doing in the golf world. They are mind-numbing #'s.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

If it's truly "fair" to compare players in different eras...then ask yourself two questions:

a) What would Rice have done in Hutson's era?

b) What would Hutson have done in Rice's era?

I believe Hutson would have been a world-class WR in Rice's era...and Rice would have been the football equivalent of Jordan and Shaq (in their primes) rolled into one in Hutson's era. Titles would have been bought and sold simply by trading Rice to different teams, assuming anyone would ever get rid of him.

I think it's just as fair to make that comparison. While Rice's was an era of bigger, better athletes...that includes the defenses he faced who understood how to stop the pass. Rice did more, he did it longer and he did it against better competition.

It's a shame this sounds like a knock on Hutson, and I agree he doesn't get the credit today he deserves among regular fans. But it only sounds demeaning to Hutson because we're talking about....Jerry Rice.

 

[OddibeMcD]

This is how mind-boggling what Rice did at the WR position.He is #1 in receiving yds with 22895. That is 50% MORE than #2 ALL TIME. (Tim Brown with 14,934)He is #1 in receiving TDs with 195. That is 50% MORE than #2 ALL TIME. (Cris Carter with 130)He is #1 in receptions with 1549. That is almost 50% MORE than #2 ALL TIME (Cris Carter with 1101).His numbers are staggering. Marvin Harrison is going to be 36 this year. We know how great a WR he is and how he's played on an elite passing team with Manning throwing to him for most of it. He doesn't sniff Rice's #'s even while playing at an elite level until the age of 35. He would need to play another HALF of his career (6 more yrs) at the same elite pace to approach Rice's #'s. He would need 66 more TDs--(Hines Ward only has 65 his entire career. He's #39 all-time on the TD list)He would need almost 9000 more receiving yds (more than H. Ward or Joe Horn had in their careers. #40 all-time didn't even have 9000 yds)He would need 507 more receptions--(Donald Driver only has 503 career receptions. At least that's only good for #96 all-time)His numbers are on par with what Gretzky accomplished in the hockey world and what Tiger is currently doing in the golf world. They are mind-numbing #'s.

When Hutson retired in 1945:488 receptions. No one who was even playing before or during 1945 makes the top 250 list. The cut-off is 343 and I don't know how to go lower. This was surpassed in 1963.7,991 receiving yards. I believe that the second place player was Jim Benton with 3309 receiving yards, less than half of Hutson's totals. Hutson's record was broken in 196399 receiving TD's. The record that Hutson broke was 37. Hutson's record stood until 1989.The records he set were even more dominant than the ones the Rice established. In the Rice v. Moss thread, there is discussion of Rice's marks going down. When Hutson retired, the guy who would break his reception and yardage records was 15. Whe man who broke his TD record wasn't even born yet.If Rice=Gretzky or Tiger, Hutson = Ruth or John L. Sullivan

 

[FUBAR]

This is how mind-boggling what Rice did at the WR position.

He is #1 in receiving yds with 22895. That is 50% MORE than #2 ALL TIME. (Tim Brown with 14,934)

He is #1 in receiving TDs with 195. That is 50% MORE than #2 ALL TIME. (Cris Carter with 130)

He is #1 in receptions with 1549. That is almost 50% MORE than #2 ALL TIME (Cris Carter with 1101).

His numbers are staggering. Marvin Harrison is going to be 36 this year. We know how great a WR he is and how he's played on an elite passing team with Manning throwing to him for most of it. He doesn't sniff Rice's #'s even while playing at an elite level until the age of 35. He would need to play another HALF of his career (6 more yrs) at the same elite pace to approach Rice's #'s.

He would need 66 more TDs--(Hines Ward only has 65 his entire career. He's #39 all-time on the TD list)

He would need almost 9000 more receiving yds (more than H. Ward or Joe Horn had in their careers. #40 all-time didn't even have 9000 yds)

He would need 507 more receptions--(Donald Driver only has 503 career receptions. At least that's only good for #96 all-time)

His numbers are on par with what Gretzky accomplished in the hockey world and what Tiger is currently doing in the golf world. They are mind-numbing #'s.

When Hutson retired in 1945:488 receptions. No one who was even playing before or during 1945 makes the top 250 list. The cut-off is 343 and I don't know how to go lower. This was surpassed in 1963.

7,991 receiving yards. I believe that the second place player was Jim Benton with 3309 receiving yards, less than half of Hutson's totals. Hutson's record was broken in 1963

99 receiving TD's. The record that Hutson broke was 37. Hutson's record stood until 1989.

The records he set were even more dominant than the ones the Rice established. In the Rice v. Moss thread, there is discussion of Rice's marks going down. When Hutson retired, the guy who would break his reception and yardage records was 15. Whe man who broke his TD record wasn't even born yet.

If Rice=Gretzky or Tiger, Hutson = Ruth or John L. Sullivan

Just to add to this perspective, Hutson is still #8 all time in receiving TDs. More than Andre Reed, more than Isaac Bruce, one less than Tim Brown and Steve Largent. Hutson's career lasted 11 years, which is less than anyone above him except Randy Moss. 9 TDs per season. (the same as Boldin and Gates, more than ocho cinco and less than only 11 players in 2007)

Jerry Rice played 20 - just under 10 TDs per season.

That's right, despite playing in an era with MUCH more prolific scoring and passing, Rice averaged less than one more TD per season.

 

[OddibeMcD]

Hutson's career lasted 11 years, which is less than anyone above him except Randy Moss. 9 TDs per season. (the same as Boldin and Gates, more than ocho cinco and less than only 11 players in 2007)Jerry Rice played 20 - just under 10 TDs per season. That's right, despite playing in an era with MUCH more prolific scoring and passing, Rice averaged less than one more TD per season.

In 11 game seasons. Hutson .85 TD per game, 68.89 yards per game, 4.21 receptions per gameRice .65 TD per game, 75.56 yards per game, 5.11 receptions per gamePretty darn close here, would you rather have a guy who catches an extra ball, or makes more of his opportunities?What Hutson did is the equivalent of someone putting up Barry Bonds numbers in a dead ball era.

 

[qimqam]

Good example of selectively pulling statistics to make a case. This is why people are skeptical of statistics, as they should be whenever making a decision. Anything relevant missing?When comparing receivers it seems more natural to tend to look at number of catches, yards and TD's (which are conveniently absent from the OP). Throw in all-pro selections and championships, those are valid. But the "led more than 80% of the league" or whatever depends on the era and a host of other factors. And the percentage of years as an all-pro is also selective filtering, why not just list number of times as an all-pro?Player A:G GS Rec Yds Y/R TD 116 60 488 7991 16.4 99 11 All-Pro SelectionsWon 3 ChampionshipsPlayer B:G GS Rec Yds Y/R TD 303 284 1549 22895 14.8 197 12 All-Pro SelectionsWon 3 ChampionshipsI'll take B. Not diminishing Hutson, or his era, or whatever. I just want more complete information than what was provided in the OP before deciding.

The funny thing is player A wasn't good enough to start almost half of his carreer games played

 

[FUBAR]

Hutson's career lasted 11 years, which is less than anyone above him except Randy Moss. 9 TDs per season. (the same as Boldin and Gates, more than ocho cinco and less than only 11 players in 2007)Jerry Rice played 20 - just under 10 TDs per season. That's right, despite playing in an era with MUCH more prolific scoring and passing, Rice averaged less than one more TD per season.

In 11 game seasons. Hutson .85 TD per game, 68.89 yards per game, 4.21 receptions per gameRice .65 TD per game, 75.56 yards per game, 5.11 receptions per gamePretty darn close here, would you rather have a guy who catches an extra ball, or makes more of his opportunities?What Hutson did is the equivalent of someone putting up Barry Bonds numbers in a dead ball era.

Almost Ruthian or Cobb-like.

 

[OddibeMcD]

The funny thing is player A wasn't good enough to start almost half of his carreer games played

I was wondering about that as well, I think that it is because he was a two way player, meaning if the team started on D and he wasn't out there it wasn't a game started. Also, PFR has him listed as a kicker for two seasons, bringing down his games started even more.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

Hutson's career lasted 11 years, which is less than anyone above him except Randy Moss. 9 TDs per season. (the same as Boldin and Gates, more than ocho cinco and less than only 11 players in 2007)Jerry Rice played 20 - just under 10 TDs per season. That's right, despite playing in an era with MUCH more prolific scoring and passing, Rice averaged less than one more TD per season.

In 11 game seasons. Hutson .85 TD per game, 68.89 yards per game, 4.21 receptions per gameRice .65 TD per game, 75.56 yards per game, 5.11 receptions per gamePretty darn close here, would you rather have a guy who catches an extra ball, or makes more of his opportunities?What Hutson did is the equivalent of someone putting up Barry Bonds numbers in a dead ball era.

Against less-skilled defenders with less experience against the pass. I THINK Rice's numbers in that era would be even better, and Hutson's numbers would not be as good as Rice's in his era. Yes, Rice played in an era of better athletics, training, etc. But he also faced much, much better competition.

 

[FUBAR]

Hutson's career lasted 11 years, which is less than anyone above him except Randy Moss. 9 TDs per season. (the same as Boldin and Gates, more than ocho cinco and less than only 11 players in 2007)

Jerry Rice played 20 - just under 10 TDs per season.

That's right, despite playing in an era with MUCH more prolific scoring and passing, Rice averaged less than one more TD per season.

In 11 game seasons. Hutson .85 TD per game, 68.89 yards per game, 4.21 receptions per game

Rice .65 TD per game, 75.56 yards per game, 5.11 receptions per game

Pretty darn close here, would you rather have a guy who catches an extra ball, or makes more of his opportunities?

What Hutson did is the equivalent of someone putting up Barry Bonds numbers in a dead ball era.

Against less-skilled defenders with less experience against the pass. I THINK Rice's numbers in that era would be even better, and Hutson's numbers would not be as good as Rice's in his era. Yes, Rice played in an era of better athletics, training, etc. But he also faced much, much better competition.

There were only 10 teams in the NFL in 1945, some would consider Rice's competition watered down. There was also a war, that some athletes actually attended...

 

[Truman]

If it's truly "fair" to compare players in different eras...then ask yourself two questions:a) What would Rice have done in Hutson's era?b) What would Hutson have done in Rice's era?I believe Hutson would have been a world-class WR in Rice's era...and Rice would have been the football equivalent of Jordan and Shaq (in their primes) rolled into one in Hutson's era. Titles would have been bought and sold simply by trading Rice to different teams, assuming anyone would ever get rid of him. I think it's just as fair to make that comparison. While Rice's was an era of bigger, better athletes...that includes the defenses he faced who understood how to stop the pass. Rice did more, he did it longer and he did it against better competition. It's a shame this sounds like a knock on Hutson, and I agree he doesn't get the credit today he deserves among regular fans. But it only sounds demeaning to Hutson because we're talking about....Jerry Rice.

Why is it that you assume Rice would have played, been a part of the offense and dominated in 1945?Teams didn't even know how to use receivers before Hutson. He invented the routes themselves, he pretty much invented the position itself as a weapon.

 

[49erBamBam52]

Hutson still holds 8 NFL records:

Most seasons leading league in pass receptions (8), Most consecutive seasons leading league in pass receptions (5), Most seasons leading league in pass receiving yards gained (7), Most consecutive seasons leading league in pass receiving yards gained (4), Most seasons leading league in pass receiving touchdowns (9), Most consecutive seasons leading league in pass receiving touchdowns (5), Most seasons leading league in scoring (5), and Most consecutive seasons leading league in scoring (5) (Source: NFL Record and fact book).

Jerry Rice holds 8 NFL records:

Most Seasons, 50 or More Pass Receptions; Most Consecutive Games, Pass Receptions; Most Yards Gained, Career; Most Seasons, 1,000 or More Yards, Pass Receiving; Most Yards Gained, Season; Most Games, 200 or More Yards Pass Receiving, Season; Most Touchdowns, Career; Most Consecutive Games, Touchdowns; Most TD's, Game.

One guy retired in 1945, the other in 2002. According to the NFL they hold the same number of records in 2008. Want to retract that statement?Edit: Just so I am not accused of being partisan, Rice actually has 9, I missed most yards from scrimmage, career.

Nope not retracting anything... the record listed there for hutson are all fluff... how can they not be, the records he once set have had years and years to be broken...i hold the record for most consecutive tuesdays at work wearing a hawaiian shirt and a top hat... noone will ever beat that record...

The records Rice holds are tangible stat records, and have nothing to do with consecutive seasons.... MORE TD's, MORE YDS, MOST GAMES, these are records that should measure the greatness of a reciever...

i am NOT dissing on Hutson, believe me, the guy was great, a hall of famer, defined the position etc. etc...

I showed this thread to my buddy who is a DIEHARD packers fan, grew up in kinoooooosha (i have no clue how to spell that city) and hosts his own packers website/forum (www.timesfour.com).

He laughed his keister off when he read this, becuase he knows Hutson was a great reciever... but he also KNOWS that rice is/was the best receiver of all time, period... yes a packer fan said that (gotta give him some credit actually )

He is actually polling his packer forum today with this same question (eliminating the annonymity of the origonal question)... i will post the results when they are in.

Bam

 

[OddibeMcD]

Found the reception record. Hutson retired with 488, the second place receiver had 190.

For Rice to match this, the second place receiver would have to have 603 receptions. Basically, Hutson was > than everyone else, like Rice was greater than Joe Horn.

 

[FUBAR]

Nope not retracting anything... the record listed there for hutson are all fluff... how can they not be, the records he once set have had TAKEN years and years to be broken...

The records Rice holds are tangible stat records, and have nothing to do with consecutive seasons.... MORE TD's, MORE YDS, MOST GAMES, these are records that should measure the greatness of a reciever...

how we measure greatness can be highly subjective. Some measure it in championships, others call this a team game. Some measure it as compared to the player's peers, some think 2005 and 1940 stats are equitable.

 

[Prussian]

How can you compare the best WR from the pass-happy era of the 80's and early 90's with a WR from an era that barely new wha a forward pass was?

Dominance over a league? Sure. But, the league was not using the forward pass as a regular weapon in the playbook until the late 1960's at best - argueably not until the 70's.

 

[49erBamBam52]

How can you compare the best WR from the pass-happy era of the 80's and early 90's with a WR from an era that barely new wha a forward pass was?Dominance over a league? Sure. But, the league was not using the forward pass as a regular weapon in the playbook until the late 1960's at best - argueably not until the 70's.

perfectly stated my friend!!

 

[gump]

Quick related trivia question:

Who started alongside Hutson in their college backfield?

 

[OddibeMcD]

Quick related trivia question:Who started alongside Hutson in their college backfield?

This is a good question, I learned it as I was researching why Hutson>Rice, that team turned out two great ones and a lot of guys that went on to have very good careers.

 

[Jason Wood]

Regarding the comparison of different generations...I think the fact the Hall of Fame differentiates between Hutson's time and Rice's argues quite favorably that the eras really aren't comparable.

 

[Tau837]

NFL Network's top ten records that will never be broken.

10 - 7 Sacks in one game - Derrick Thomas

9 - 10 straight championship games - Otto Graham

8 - Undefeated season - Miami Dolphins

7 - 29 consecutive years coaching the same team - Tom Landry

6 - 18 straight wins away - 49ers

5 - 8 season leading the league in TDs - Don Hutson

4 - 26 consecutive loses - Tampa Bay

3 - 2??+ consecutive games started - Brett Favre

2 - 47 consecutive games with a passing TD - Johnny Unitas

1 - 347 wins - Don Shula

Hutson still holds 8 NFL records:

Most seasons leading league in pass receptions (8), Most consecutive seasons leading league in pass receptions (5), Most seasons leading league in pass receiving yards gained (7), Most consecutive seasons leading league in pass receiving yards gained (4), Most seasons leading league in pass receiving touchdowns (9), Most consecutive seasons leading league in pass receiving touchdowns (5), Most seasons leading league in scoring (5), and Most consecutive seasons leading league in scoring (5) (Source: NFL Record and fact book).

Jerry Rice holds 8 NFL records:

Most Seasons, 50 or More Pass Receptions; Most Consecutive Games, Pass Receptions; Most Yards Gained, Career; Most Seasons, 1,000 or More Yards, Pass Receiving; Most Yards Gained, Season; Most Games, 200 or More Yards Pass Receiving, Season; Most Touchdowns, Career; Most Consecutive Games, Touchdowns; Most TD's, Game.

One guy retired in 1945, the other in 2002. According to the NFL they hold the same number of records in 2008. Want to retract that statement?Edit: Just so I am not accused of being partisan, Rice actually has 9, I missed most yards from scrimmage, career.

Hutson was an awesome player.That said, every one of his records you cited involves number of season leading the league in a receiving category, not to mention that the 8 records are really overlapped, with 4 of them most seasons and 4 of the most consecutive seasons. The thing is, while leading the league in these categories is impressive, you have to remember there were only 9-10 teams in the NFL when Hutson played.

IMO, the records Rice holds are collectively much more impressive.

 

[Tau837]

There were only 10 teams in the NFL in 1945, some would consider Rice's competition watered down.

There was also a war, that some athletes actually attended...

I can't tell which position you are taking. In my opinion, it is absurd for anyone to suggest that Hutson played tougher competition than Rice, for many reasons. First, the war issue noted above. Second, integration:

In 1933, after 31 years of limited integration, the NFL banned African American athletes from participating in league play. When the NFL was reintegrated in 1946, black players made an immediate impact, leading their teams in rushing, passing, and receiving.

Hutson played from 1935 to 1945, and thus never played against (or with) an African American player.Third, while I cannot confirm this, I have read that the better athletes played offense back then. And it is definitely the case that defenses were much more basic and were not as well coached.

 

[ratbast]

Ive seen this argument a number of times. Ive never chimed in, until now...

Defenses werent built to withstand a passing attack back in the 40's. You might say the Westcoast O actually is similiar in its innovation but at least there were cornerbacks who were pass specialists. How many INTs did the greatest CB have per year in the late 40's...3? Is 5 the record?

Both WRs were benefactors of offensive innovation however the D's faced by Rice were more prepared to stop him, but couldn't.

 

[OddibeMcD]

Ive seen this argument a number of times. Ive never chimed in, until now...Defenses werent built to withstand a passing attack back in the 40's. You might say the Westcoast O actually is similiar in its innovation but at least there were cornerbacks who were pass specialists. How many INTs did the greatest CB have per year in the late 40's...3? Is 5 the record?Both WRs were benefactors of offensive innovation however the D's faced by Rice were more prepared to stop him, but couldn't.

Slingin' Sammy Baugh, another underrated guy, had 11 interceptions in 1943. There hasn't been a player with more than 10 INT's in a season since 1980. THe record for single season INT's was set in 1952. I would say that D's were more designed to shut down the passing game because of the Rule Book back in the 1940's, and the lack of a dominant DB during Rice's era is because defenses could not attack the pass as much as they previously could.

 

[OddibeMcD]

Third, while I cannot confirm this, I have read that the better athletes played offense back then. And it is definitely the case that defenses were much more basic and were not as well coached.

Uh, Hutson was a two way player. He led the league in interceptions in 1940, before the Yanks joined up in the war.

 

[Tau837]

Third, while I cannot confirm this, I have read that the better athletes played offense back then. And it is definitely the case that defenses were much more basic and were not as well coached.

Uh, Hutson was a two way player. He led the league in interceptions in 1940, before the Yanks joined up in the war.

I'm aware of that. So? The whole comparison here between Rice and Hutson is between them as receivers. The fact that Hutson played defense is not evidence to refute what I posted about the quality of the defenses he faced as a receiver.