Who is the #23 best basketball player of all-time? (1 Viewer)

[Frostillicus]

1. Michael Jordan (71%)
2. Lebron james (85%).
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (34%).
4. Wilt Chamberlain (31%).
5. Magic Johnson (33%).
6. Larry Bird (44%).
7. Bill Russell (67%).
8. Shaquille O'Neal (31%)
9. Tim Duncan (53%).
10. Hakeem Olajuwon (36%).
11. Kobe Bryant (37%).
12. Oscar Robertson (49%).
13. Stephen Curry (74%).
14. Julius Erving (37%).
15. Moses Malone (38%).
16. Kevin Durant (38%).
17. David Robinson (41%).
18. Jerry West (37%)
19. Charles Barkley (42%).
20. Kevin Garnett (27%).
21. Karl Malone (32%).
22. Elgin Baylor (29%).
23. ????????????

 

[the moops]

Who the **** keeps voting for Isiah Thomas?

 

[dino259]

Hoping we can complete the top 25. That would most likely include giannis and Jokic.

 

[msudaisy26]

Dirk, Jokic and Giannis need to be the next 3 in any order. There is a massive tier break after that.

 

[Jayrod]

Baylor at 22 is a travesty. He should be 3-5 spots lower.

 

[Frostillicus]

Hoping we can complete the top 25. That would most likely include giannis and Jokic.

This one goes to 100.

 

[encaitar]

John Stockton gets just as overlooked here as he did in the streets of Barcelona in 92, despite deserving to be on the bus with all the greats... and I'm really disappointed that this forum didn't go for the obvious Stockton to Malone back to back in the rankings.

 

[msudaisy26]

John Stockton gets just as overlooked here as he did in the streets of Barcelona in 92, despite deserving to be on the bus with all the greats... and I'm really disappointed that this forum didn't go for the obvious Stockton to Malone back to back in the rankings.

He is a great player, but of he current players listed he shouldn't go above Giannis, Dirk, Jokic, Thomas, Wade, or Pippen and I can't make a case for him to go above anyone that is already on list.

 

[Jayrod]

Stockton was pretty similar to Baylor. Somebody who was really good for a long time.

 

[msudaisy26]

Chris Paul is better than Stockton all-time and he isn't even listed yet and I say this as someone that dislikes Chris Paul.

 

[encaitar]

Chris Paul is better than Stockton all-time and he isn't even listed yet and I say this as someone that dislikes Chris Paul.

Hmm. Paul's peak is better than Stockton's no doubt, but Stockton was too consistent over his career for me to agree with that.

Stockton missed 22 games in his career. Total. Over 19 seasons. Paul has missed that many games in a season 5 times.
Stockton NEVER missed the playoffs. All 19 years... in the playoffs.
He's #2 behind Magic in assists per game at 10.5... more than a full assist ahead of Paul. His steals per game is ahead of Paul... and of course he's the NBA career leader in both of those.
Stockton(percentage wise) is a better mid range and 3 point shooter than Paul.
Stockton is currently 6th all time in NBA win shares.

Again... Paul's peak was better than Stockton's, but not significantly enough IMO for me to put him above Stockton, whose peak was MUCH longer than Paul's.

 

[Navin Johnson]

Chris Paul is better than Stockton all-time and he isn't even listed yet and I say this as someone that dislikes Chris Paul.

Hmm. Paul's peak is better than Stockton's no doubt, but Stockton was too consistent over his career for me to agree with that.

Stockton missed 22 games in his career. Total. Over 19 seasons. Paul has missed that many games in a season 5 times.
Stockton NEVER missed the playoffs. All 19 years... in the playoffs.
He's #2 behind Magic in assists per game at 10.5... more than a full assist ahead of Paul. His steals per game is ahead of Paul... and of course he's the NBA career leader in both of those.
Stockton(percentage wise) is a better mid range and 3 point shooter than Paul.
Stockton is currently 6th all time in NBA win shares.

Again... Paul's peak was better than Stockton's, but not significantly enough IMO for me to put him above Stockton, whose peak was MUCH longer than Paul's.

John Stockton HAS NO LEFT

John Stockton is considered one of the top 5 or even top 2 NBA point guards of ALL TIME. And the evidence is all right there...right? All time assist leader ...

youtu.be

 

[msudaisy26]

Chris Paul is better than Stockton all-time and he isn't even listed yet and I say this as someone that dislikes Chris Paul.

Hmm. Paul's peak is better than Stockton's no doubt, but Stockton was too consistent over his career for me to agree with that.

Stockton missed 22 games in his career. Total. Over 19 seasons. Paul has missed that many games in a season 5 times.
Stockton NEVER missed the playoffs. All 19 years... in the playoffs.
He's #2 behind Magic in assists per game at 10.5... more than a full assist ahead of Paul. His steals per game is ahead of Paul... and of course he's the NBA career leader in both of those.
Stockton(percentage wise) is a better mid range and 3 point shooter than Paul.
Stockton is currently 6th all time in NBA win shares.

Again... Paul's peak was better than Stockton's, but not significantly enough IMO for me to put him above Stockton, whose peak was MUCH longer than Paul's.

The eye ball test says Paul is better. Missed games isn't a stat that should be used to determine greatness. Paul has taken about twice as many threes and made twice as many as Stockton. If Stockton took more his percentage would be lower and they are close now. It is like saying Steve Kerr is a better 3 point shooter than Steph Curry because his percentage is higher.

 

[FatMax]

Chris Paul is better than Stockton all-time and he isn't even listed yet and I say this as someone that dislikes Chris Paul.

Hmm. Paul's peak is better than Stockton's no doubt, but Stockton was too consistent over his career for me to agree with that.

Stockton missed 22 games in his career. Total. Over 19 seasons. Paul has missed that many games in a season 5 times.
Stockton NEVER missed the playoffs. All 19 years... in the playoffs.
He's #2 behind Magic in assists per game at 10.5... more than a full assist ahead of Paul. His steals per game is ahead of Paul... and of course he's the NBA career leader in both of those.
Stockton(percentage wise) is a better mid range and 3 point shooter than Paul.
Stockton is currently 6th all time in NBA win shares.

Again... Paul's peak was better than Stockton's, but not significantly enough IMO for me to put him above Stockton, whose peak was MUCH longer than Paul's.

The eye ball test says Paul is better. Missed games isn't a stat that should be used to determine greatness. Paul has taken about twice as many threes and made twice as many as Stockton. If Stockton took more his percentage would be lower and they are close now. It is like saying Steve Kerr is a better 3 point shooter than Steph Curry because his percentage is higher.

Stockton is higher in career Win Shares and VORP as well. The eyeball test is the same reasoning that Kobe fans think he's top ten (or higher). Stats don't always agree.

 

[msudaisy26]

Chris Paul is better than Stockton all-time and he isn't even listed yet and I say this as someone that dislikes Chris Paul.

Hmm. Paul's peak is better than Stockton's no doubt, but Stockton was too consistent over his career for me to agree with that.

Stockton missed 22 games in his career. Total. Over 19 seasons. Paul has missed that many games in a season 5 times.
Stockton NEVER missed the playoffs. All 19 years... in the playoffs.
He's #2 behind Magic in assists per game at 10.5... more than a full assist ahead of Paul. His steals per game is ahead of Paul... and of course he's the NBA career leader in both of those.
Stockton(percentage wise) is a better mid range and 3 point shooter than Paul.
Stockton is currently 6th all time in NBA win shares.

Again... Paul's peak was better than Stockton's, but not significantly enough IMO for me to put him above Stockton, whose peak was MUCH longer than Paul's.

The eye ball test says Paul is better. Missed games isn't a stat that should be used to determine greatness. Paul has taken about twice as many threes and made twice as many as Stockton. If Stockton took more his percentage would be lower and they are close now. It is like saying Steve Kerr is a better 3 point shooter than Steph Curry because his percentage is higher.

Stockton is higher in career Win Shares and VORP as well. The eyeball test is the same reasoning that Kobe fans think he's top ten (or higher). Stats don't always agree.

There are some stats in favor of Stockton, but when I say eyeball test I am comparing Paul directly to Stockton and he stands out compared to Stockton. Kobe doesn't stand out against, Shaq, Jordan, LeBron, Magic etc.

 

[Jayrod]

The eye ball test says Paul is better. Missed games isn't a stat that should be used to determine greatness. Paul has taken about twice as many threes and made twice as many as Stockton. If Stockton took more his percentage would be lower and they are close now. It is like saying Steve Kerr is a better 3 point shooter than Steph Curry because his percentage is higher.

To a certain extent.

If it weren't a factor at all, Bill Walton would have been selected already.

 

[msudaisy26]

The eye ball test says Paul is better. Missed games isn't a stat that should be used to determine greatness. Paul has taken about twice as many threes and made twice as many as Stockton. If Stockton took more his percentage would be lower and they are close now. It is like saying Steve Kerr is a better 3 point shooter than Steph Curry because his percentage is higher.

To a certain extent.

If it weren't a factor at all, Bill Walton would have been selected already.

That is fair and I didn't define it well. A guy like Paul who has missed games due to injuries and a lot of them, yet he has come back to play at an extremely high level is actually pretty impressive especially this stage in his career.

Btw I hate you all for making me defend Chris Paul.

 

[Jayrod]

CP3's total numbers are a lot closer to Stockton's than I thought and Paul's advanced metrics are better, plus he has a few more accolades.

Really, Stockton's only advantages are in total games played (and the resulting accumulation of stats) and in team playoff success.

Paul finished top 5 in MVP voting 5x's including a 2nd place finish. Stockton never got higher than 7th.

 

[Softballguy]

I'm a bit surprised that Dirk is getting more votes than Giannis. I think Giannis and Jokic are very close, so I have no problem with Joker getting the love, but I just wonder what the Dirk fans are seeing that I'm not. Is it purely a longevity thing?

Hoping the Jokic fans come over to Team Giannis next round.

 

[Zow]

Definitely now time for Giannis and Jokic. I think they are past Dirk.

 

[Yo Mama]

Trying to figure out the next Laker I’m going to start crusading for in this exercise. Worthy? Mikan? Van Exel?

 

[msudaisy26]

Trying to figure out the next Laker I’m going to start crusading for in this exercise. Worthy? Mikan? Van Exel?

Probably just double up on Kobe.

 

[msudaisy26]

It is pretty cool that Rick Barry is on these boards and voted for himself. Wonder what his username is.

 

[FatMax]

I am comparing Paul directly to Stockton and he stands out compared to Stockton.

Sure. Stockton doesn't stand out when compared to nearly anyone. He wouldn't stand out in a pickup game. But he facilitated wins more than nearly any other to ever play the position. And this is coming from a guy who HATED Stockton when he played, but have a come to appreciate him a lot more now.

 

[Yo Mama]

Trying to figure out the next Laker I’m going to start crusading for in this exercise. Worthy? Mikan? Van Exel?

Probably just double up on Kobe.

Hmm, his number is retired twice. . .

 

[FatMax]

Trying to figure out the next Laker I’m going to start crusading for in this exercise. Worthy? Mikan? Van Exel?

Cancun! Cancun! Cancun!

 

[Zow]

Trying to figure out the next Laker I’m going to start crusading for in this exercise. Worthy? Mikan? Van Exel?

Think Austin Reaves is a top 30 ever at this point?

 

[Yo Mama]

Trying to figure out the next Laker I’m going to start crusading for in this exercise. Worthy? Mikan? Van Exel?

Think Austin Reaves is a top 30 ever at this point?

I was waiting to see what he does in the FIBA semis, but you’re right - probably should start including him soon.

 

[Doug B]

Missed games isn't a stat that should be used to determine greatness.

... don't know about that. Availability is a big deal.

It is what it is, but I can't get into the modern "playing more than 70 games is for suckers" ethic.

 

[Gally]

what the Dirk fans are seeing that I'm not. Is it purely a longevity thing?

For me this is the reason. Giannis and Jokic are incomplete at this time. When complete I think they will be much higher but as someone posted at some point just think where Kawahi would be if this was right after his title. The recency bias would be big.

 

[Frostillicus]

Don't worry, CP3 is next.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Chris Paul is better than Stockton all-time and he isn't even listed yet and I say this as someone that dislikes Chris Paul.

Hmm. Paul's peak is better than Stockton's no doubt, but Stockton was too consistent over his career for me to agree with that.

Stockton missed 22 games in his career. Total. Over 19 seasons. Paul has missed that many games in a season 5 times.
Stockton NEVER missed the playoffs. All 19 years... in the playoffs.
He's #2 behind Magic in assists per game at 10.5... more than a full assist ahead of Paul. His steals per game is ahead of Paul... and of course he's the NBA career leader in both of those.
Stockton(percentage wise) is a better mid range and 3 point shooter than Paul.
Stockton is currently 6th all time in NBA win shares.

Again... Paul's peak was better than Stockton's, but not significantly enough IMO for me to put him above Stockton, whose peak was MUCH longer than Paul's.

The eye ball test says Paul is better. Missed games isn't a stat that should be used to determine greatness. Paul has taken about twice as many threes and made twice as many as Stockton. If Stockton took more his percentage would be lower and they are close now. It is like saying Steve Kerr is a better 3 point shooter than Steph Curry because his percentage is higher.

Stockton is higher in career Win Shares and VORP as well. The eyeball test is the same reasoning that Kobe fans think he's top ten (or higher). Stats don't always agree.

Speaking of eyeball test, my first weekend living in NYC I ended up at Windows on the World dance club (107th floor of the north tower of WTC.) Some very excited Japanese were pointing at me and jumping up and down. Then they ran across the dance floor to let me know YOU!! YOU’RE THE GREATEST POINT GUARD IN THE NBA! JOHN STOCKTON I CAN’T BELIEVE IT. Then they all I wanted to take pictures with me & buy me drinks.

It was great being famous for 15 minutes.

 

[nirad3]

Dirk, Jokic and Giannis need to be the next 3 in any order. There is a massive tier break after that.

agreed