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Who is the 2nd best WR of all time? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter LHUCKS
- Start date
Idiot Boxer
Footballguy
Don Beebe.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Having Owens in this poll and not Marvin Harrison is a joke.
Harrison > Owens
Harrison > Owens
LHUCKS
Footballguy
we'll agree to disagree, T.O. in his prime was a dominant force....harrison...not really.
LHUCKS
Footballguy
Brown IMHO is the most underrated WR of all time...many of his best years were wasted...his stats don't do him nearly enough justice.Brown is definitely my top 10 and I think I could make an argument for top 5...sick, sick talent in his prime.
I think TO was better than Harrison but to say Harrison wasn't a dominant force seems a tad strange. Guy was amazing.
Choke
Footballguy
wat?1999 115 1663 14.5 12
2000* 102 1413 13.9 14
2001* 109 1524 14.0 15
2002 143 1722 12.0 11
Better then any run TO ever had.
Colts-Freak
Footballguy
Clearly it's Harrison followed by Cris Carter, Moss & Tim Brown...not necessarily in that order.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Harrison:-led the league in receiving yards twice (and finished second twice)-scored double digit touchdowns eight seasons IN A ROW-led the league in receptions twice (and finished in the top 3 three other times)Owens: -never lead the league in receiving yards (and only finished in the top 3 once, in '01 when he finished 3rd)-scored double digit touchdowns eight times, but never more than three seasons in a row-never led the league in receptions, and never finished in the top threeOwens has the slight edge in touchdowns, as he led the league in that three times, as opposed to once for Harrison, but I still give Harrison the nod.
dgreen
Footballguy
Which one of his seasons was "arguably the best WR season ever"?
footballnerd
Footballguy
there we go Hucks! 
DoubleG
Footballguy
Prolly the one where he set the record for most receiving TDs by a WR? :X
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
And needed four more games than Jerry Rice had to do it, and also didn't even lead the league in receiving yards.Prolly the one where he set the record for most receiving TDs by a WR?
dgreen
Footballguy
Moss 2007: 16 games, 98 receptions, 1493 yards, 23 TDsMoss 2003: 16 games, 111 receptions, 1632 yards, 17 TDsProlly the one where he set the record for most receiving TDs by a WR?
Hutson 1942: 11 games, 74 receptions, 1211 yards, 17 TDs
Hutson's 1942 season projected to 16 games: 107 receptions, 1761 yards, 25 TDs...and it was 19-freaking-42, so adjusting for era only helps Hutson's case. 2nd place in receptions that year had 27 receptions.
FUBAR
Footballguy
and by "arguably", he presumably meant less than "certainly". It wasn't, but the argument has been made. He had 6 games of under 60 yards, over 100 in 8, inconsistent is the name.And needed four more games than Jerry Rice had to do it, and also didn't even lead the league in receiving yards.Prolly the one where he set the record for most receiving TDs by a WR?
Koya
Footballguy
Can you imagine what Hutson would do with:1. Nice sticky glovesMoss 2007: 16 games, 98 receptions, 1493 yards, 23 TDsMoss 2003: 16 games, 111 receptions, 1632 yards, 17 TDsProlly the one where he set the record for most receiving TDs by a WR?
Hutson 1942: 11 games, 74 receptions, 1211 yards, 17 TDs
Hutson's 1942 season projected to 16 games: 107 receptions, 1761 yards, 25 TDs...and it was 19-freaking-42, so adjusting for era only helps Hutson's case. 2nd place in receptions that year had 27 receptions.
2. Modern Training and Health advances
3. Focus on only offense, not being one of the better/best DBs of his time
4. Not having to get manhandled on every play
5. Have a ball far more suited to passing and catching
wudaben
Footballguy
Absolutely! He was never really in a major passing offense like Rice and Carter were other then Gannon's brief time and he shared receptions with Rice by then. If Montana and Young were throwing to him all those years his numbers would be just as sick as Rice's were!Randy Moss has had some great individual seasons but he's got many years to go IMO to come close to Rice or Carter.
HellToupee
Footballguy
As an Alworth voter, I'd be happy to explain the arguments for him.6 first team AP All Pros, a league MVP award, led the league in receiving yards three times and actually led the league in YARDS FROM SCRIMMAGE twice (Jerry Rice, for all his accomplishments, never managed to do that even once). He also led the league in total TDs 3 times (1 more than Jerry).
Granted, the awards and season-ending rankings carry a bit less weight because there were fewer teams around back then, but the numbers he put up were obscene. He currently has 3 of the top 20 seasons of all time in receiving yards per game. Jerry Rice only has one such season. Randy Moss's best season ranks 25th. From 1964 to 1966, Alworth averaged 110 yards and 1.08 TDs per game. That'd be like someone today going for 1760 yards and 17 scores in back-to-back-to-back seasons. During his six-year prime, his production was untouchable. His career ypr average was 18.9. Plus, my personal favorite reason... he was, in my humble opinion, the most fun player to watch that I've yet come across. He'd catch the ball and then it looked like he was just out for a relaxing stroll as he sauntered his way 50 yards down the field into the end zone.
kupcho1
Footballguy
Koya
Footballguy
SECOND BEST, not GOAT. Yeesh.
DoubleG
Footballguy
Is this like Jeopardy? Is the question "Who is slower than Betty White in high heels?"
Todem
Footballguy
I voted other. Marvin Harrison is the second best I have ever seen play. I love Moss. I Love TO. But Marvin was brilliant.
DoubleG
Footballguy
Of those three, T.O. was the only one who would go across the middle on a regular basis. The other two were good at fly, post and go routes (and Moss only on thos occasionas that he felt like). IMHO, Moss could have been, but didn't want to be.
I voted other.
Marvin Harrison is the second best I have ever seen play. I love Moss. I Love TO. But Marvin was brilliant.
Instinctive
Footballguy
I think the next three have got to be some combo of Moss, Carter, and Harrison. I have no idea which order I would put them consistently, though right now I would say Carter, Moss, Harrison
joffer
Footballguy
no, and no
Idiot Boxer
Footballguy
Not Don Beebe?
Todem
Footballguy
Marvin ran crossing routes underneath the coverage. As far as going into the middle with a safety bearing down...yeah not often. But what does that have to do with being an all time great elite WR. Marvin Harrison was not a big guy and why would he do something that stupid? He knew his strengths (laser sharp route running and speed) and exploited other teams with them.Of those three, T.O. was the only one who would go across the middle on a regular basis. The other two were good at fly, post and go routes (and Moss only on thos occasionas that he felt like). IMHO, Moss could have been, but didn't want to be.
I voted other.
Marvin Harrison is the second best I have ever seen play. I love Moss. I Love TO. But Marvin was brilliant.
footballnerd
Footballguy
I was gonna say Ed McCaffrey
Koya
Footballguy
I don't believe I have seen a more consistent producer at the position in my lifetime than Marv.Marvin ran crossing routes underneath the coverage. As far as going into the middle with a safety bearing down...yeah not often. But what does that have to do with being an all time great elite WR. Marvin Harrison was not a big guy and why would he do something that stupid? He knew his strengths (laser sharp route running and speed) and exploited other teams with them.Of those three, T.O. was the only one who would go across the middle on a regular basis. The other two were good at fly, post and go routes (and Moss only on thos occasionas that he felt like). IMHO, Moss could have been, but didn't want to be.
I voted other.
Marvin Harrison is the second best I have ever seen play. I love Moss. I Love TO. But Marvin was brilliant.
jimed
Footballguy
Imagine what he could have done, not playing against an intergrated, watered down war time ravaged teams. Imagine if the NFL was intergrated in those days. Not saying he wasn't good, but you cannot use 1942 to justify his alleged greatness. Inferior competition does not justify it.Can you imagine what Hutson would do with:1. Nice sticky glovesMoss 2007: 16 games, 98 receptions, 1493 yards, 23 TDsMoss 2003: 16 games, 111 receptions, 1632 yards, 17 TDsProlly the one where he set the record for most receiving TDs by a WR?
Hutson 1942: 11 games, 74 receptions, 1211 yards, 17 TDs
Hutson's 1942 season projected to 16 games: 107 receptions, 1761 yards, 25 TDs...and it was 19-freaking-42, so adjusting for era only helps Hutson's case. 2nd place in receptions that year had 27 receptions.
2. Modern Training and Health advances
3. Focus on only offense, not being one of the better/best DBs of his time
4. Not having to get manhandled on every play
5. Have a ball far more suited to passing and catching
If he was so great, he would have enlisted on Dec 8th, and caught all of the Japaneese bombs dropped during the battle of Midway
ChromeWeasel
Footballguy
Art Monk.
shader
Footballguy
Marvin Harrison? Really? I wouldn't have him in the top 5 all-time. He's certainly an example of a very, very good WR who becomes great because of having a precision passer with him his entire career.
TO and Moss are the two most dominant receivers in history, but both have immense baggage. TO could have been the best ever, if it weren't for his average hands and bad reputation. But he is the most intimidating receiver in history.
Moss is the best downfield threat in history and when he is "ON" is simply unstoppable. Unfortunately, his tendency to disappear knocks him down a peg or two.
TO and Moss are the two most dominant receivers in history, but both have immense baggage. TO could have been the best ever, if it weren't for his average hands and bad reputation. But he is the most intimidating receiver in history.
Moss is the best downfield threat in history and when he is "ON" is simply unstoppable. Unfortunately, his tendency to disappear knocks him down a peg or two.
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Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Alworth laps the field in receiving yards per game from ages 24 to 28: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/4U7FL
I couldn't agree more. I wonder what Terrell Owens would have been like with Manning for most of his career? TO has the ability to dominate a game. Harrison HAD the ability to help Peyton Manning dominate. Harrison is definitely one of the all time greats. Very polished route runner, quicks, speed and great hands but I once saw Lavar Arrington go totally horizontal, superman style, into Terrell Owens, only to be pushed to the ground like a rag doll for a huge gain. Owens' performance in the superbowl after the broken leg was also very impressive.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
In a lot of ways, passing in the '40s and '50s wasn't nearly as difficult as people make it out to be. The '70s? Yes. But not before then.In the '90s and '00s, teams passed about 32 times per game; in the '40s and '50s, it was about 24 times per game. So that's a 33% increase in pass attempts. And obviously completion percentages were way down, from under 50% in the pre-modern era to 58% over the past two decades. As a result, teams completed about 11.5 passes per game in the '40s and '50s, and about 19 passes per game since 1990.
On the other hand, yards per attempt hasn't fluctuated nearly as much. It's been around 6.3 for every decade, save the '70s. In the '40s, it was 6.43; in the '00s, it was 6.40. So the uptick in completion percentage reflects a change in style, but not in substance: teams averaged significantly more yards per completion in the old days than they do now. As a result, the only reason for more passing yards today is because of more games (not relevant when looking at yards per game) and more attempts per game. On average, teams in the '40s and '50s averaged 155 yards per game through the air; from '90 to '09, that average was 207. Again, a roughly 33% increase.
Now you might think that a 33% increase is huge, and that's why it's so much easier to put up big passing numbers now. For quarterbacks, that's undoubtedly the case. For wide receivers? Not so much. The tight end position didn't even exist during Hutson's time. Neither did the slot receiver, much less the 4th and 5th WRs. Running backs weren't targeted nearly as often as they are now. On the '43 Packers, Hutson and Harry Jacunksi, the other starting end, caught 68% of the Packer's passing yards. Jennings and Driver caught 48% of the Packers' receiving yards in 2009. Hutson wasn't competing with Jermichael Finley and James Jones and Jordy Nelson and Donald Lee and Ryan Grant and Brandon Jackson for targets; he was competing with Donald Driver, and that's about it. So sure, the pie may have been 25% smaller than the pie in modern times, but the competition simply wasn't there. Teams switched from the Single Wing to the T-Formation during Hutson's career, which made passing easier, but didn't change the distribution. There weren't substitutions, there weren't many reads, and there weren't many targets on any one play. For receivers, it wasn't nearly as difficult as you might think, looking at how the passing game played out in the '70s, to compile huge numbers in the '40s and '50s.
Over the 20-year period from '40 to '59, 5 WRs averaged 100 receiving yards per game (with Hutson doing it only once). From 1990 to 2009, 14 WRs did that. But there were 219 teams playing from '40 to '59, and 609 teams from '90 to '99. So 0.0228 WRs per team per season from '40 to '59 averaged 100 yards per game, compared to ... 0.0230 per team season from '90 to '09. In other words, once you factor out the number of games played per season and the number of teams in the league, high-end productivity for wide receivers wasn't much different in the '40s and '50s then it is now.
It's also worth pointing out that passing touchdowns per game have also remained flat; in the '00s, teams averaged 1.34 passing TDs per game; it was 1.28 in the '90s, 1.34 in the '80s, 1.09 in the '70s, 1.44 in the '60s (NFL only), 1.36 in the '50s and 1.22 in the '40s (1.34 from '43 to '49). Again, outside of the '70s, teams usually average about 1.3 passing touchdowns per team game. So it wasn't any more difficult for a WR to get 1 touchdown or more per game in the '40s and '50s than it is now, and it was arguably a bit easier considering the lack of sophistication in the passing game (fewer options --> more touchdowns per starting receiver). Fourteen WRs in the '40s and '50s averaged a receiving touchdown per game or more, or 0.064 per team season; thirteen WRs in the '90s and '00s averaged a receiving touchdown per game or more, or 0.021 per team season.
(Note that I still put Hutson as my #2 WR of all-time.)
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