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Who is the #4 best NBA player of all-time? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Frostillicus
- Start date
Yo Mama
Footballguy
Kareem was towards the back end of his career when Magic came. Magic gave a whole new spark to Kareem and ended up extending his run of dominance through the eighties. Not trying to slight 80s Kareem in the slightest, but I think he got more lift out of the partnership than Magic did. Plus Magic won more than bird did too, so there.
Frostillicus
Footballguy
I remember that as clear as day. Thanks for posting.That was relatively late in Bird's career in 1991.
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Frostillicus
Footballguy
this is so insane to me. hes done everything and more you could want. how is he so low on your list i don't get it.
TripItUp
Footballguy
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I guess if I think we got #3 wrong then i should vote for that person and not the person I would actually put 4th?
AAABatteries
Footballguy
There’s no individual statistical analysis you can do that puts Russell over Wilt. It’s all about championships, winning % and being a good teammate- it’s not “wrong”, it’s just not how I choose to evaluate players. Wilt > Russell, IMO. Does anybody think if the two swapped teams all those years that this would even be a debate? I don’t.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Exactly. There is a reason most players (including LeGM) wouldn’t make good team execs.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Agree that individual quality should be independent of team quality in these things. So players like Robinson (mostly), Lebron and Wilt are going to flash higher for me than some people.
I also tend to weigh peak > longevity. David Robinson didn't even get to the NBA until he was 24. Kobe and Lebron had racked up 5 or 6 seasons each by 24. MJ took two years off, etc.
I also tend to weigh peak > longevity. David Robinson didn't even get to the NBA until he was 24. Kobe and Lebron had racked up 5 or 6 seasons each by 24. MJ took two years off, etc.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Magic played with so many great players it's hard for me to grade him - he was incredible and probably the most entertaining player I've ever watched but those Lakers teams were pretty loaded with talent and great coaching.
the moops
Footballguy
BlackCrowes
Footballguy
Went with Bird
Kev4029
Footballguy
Third and fourth are pretty tough (I would have voted Kareem #3) and I ultimately went with Russell at #4 but would have very little issue with the other big vote getters here, although I do feel like Hakeem gets a little disrespected in the pantheon lists and deserves at least inclusion in the discussion here if guys like Duncan, Kobe, Shaw and Oscar are included.
Russell was the first real modern NBA player who you feel like could have played in 2023 (there were a handful like Wilt and Baylor that came just afterwards), he was the most winningest player ever, and is the best defensive player ever. He's hard to rank because of both all of the afore mentioned plus the era and his relative lack of offensive prowess. I give him a slight bump for being such a great ambassador for the game for so many years.
Wilt was certainly a more dominant force than Russell, but it is incredibly difficult to rank Wilt above Russell when Russell absolutely dominated the head to head series. Bird and Magic are arguably the second and third most important players in NBA history (behind Jordan) but I give them both slight demerits and this level for their shorter careers vs their contemporaries (both around 900 games).
The rest of the group included here is the next tier to me - I think I would have Jordan and Lebron in Tier 1, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Bird, and Magic in Tier 2 (probably in that order), then a larger Tier 3 behind them (in no particular order) of Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Robertson, Curry, West, Moses Malone, Dr J, then an ever Larger Tier 4 (taking me through the top 30 or so) with guys like Karl Malone, Giannis, Jokic, Pippen, Barry, Baylor, KD, Dirk, etc.
Russell was the first real modern NBA player who you feel like could have played in 2023 (there were a handful like Wilt and Baylor that came just afterwards), he was the most winningest player ever, and is the best defensive player ever. He's hard to rank because of both all of the afore mentioned plus the era and his relative lack of offensive prowess. I give him a slight bump for being such a great ambassador for the game for so many years.
Wilt was certainly a more dominant force than Russell, but it is incredibly difficult to rank Wilt above Russell when Russell absolutely dominated the head to head series. Bird and Magic are arguably the second and third most important players in NBA history (behind Jordan) but I give them both slight demerits and this level for their shorter careers vs their contemporaries (both around 900 games).
The rest of the group included here is the next tier to me - I think I would have Jordan and Lebron in Tier 1, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Bird, and Magic in Tier 2 (probably in that order), then a larger Tier 3 behind them (in no particular order) of Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Robertson, Curry, West, Moses Malone, Dr J, then an ever Larger Tier 4 (taking me through the top 30 or so) with guys like Karl Malone, Giannis, Jokic, Pippen, Barry, Baylor, KD, Dirk, etc.
For #3 I went with who I thought was the best of what was remaining........and that was Kareem. With this pick I am going with my favorite of all time in Magic but I do think he has an argument as being the #4 guy in NBA history. I think this vote could go a number of ways as it is that close. But Magic is my guy.
He may not be a better specimen but he was a much better teammate, made everyone around him better and elevated his team. To me that matters more than just being a specimen that had problems winning. Give me Magic.
I will jump on this bandwagon
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
Have you seen MJ's draft history?
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
Kobe's on ball defense was elite but off ball he was Harden-like.
dkp993
Footballguy
Magic didn’t play against plumbers and locksmiths who he was a foot taller then.
TripItUp
Footballguy
You pick your energy battles when you are a two way player.
Post-Shaq, Kobe carried those teams to championships....on both sides of the floor.
TripItUp
Footballguy
Draft history and evaluating the GOATs are two different skill sets.
The vast majority of GOATs have Kobe >>>> Lefraud
dkp993
Footballguy
Tough vote (obviously), I can make a case for a few of them. Magic and Duncan are my 1&2 all time favorites players, both are in the all time starting 5. Bird was right there with Magic and Kobe (though I didn’t like him) is a close to Jordan as it gets. Shaq dominated in a way not seen since guys like me were playing in the NBA.
I voted Magic largely because I thought “who would I draft” out of that group. My heart may be leading that decision though.
I voted Magic largely because I thought “who would I draft” out of that group. My heart may be leading that decision though.
Spartans Rule
Footballguy
When Wilt got some good teammates and coaching around him, his 66-67 Philly team went 68-13 and won the title, and he shot 68% and averaged almost 8 assists per game. Put him with all the talent in Boston and I doubt they miss a beat.
Russell averaged 15.1 points over 43.2 minutes per game for his career, and wasn't even efficient doing it (99 TS%+). Put him on Wilt's Warriors teams and they'd have problems, even if he was the greatest defender of all time.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Okay. It's your list. Feel free to pick whomever you want. But Kobe? Really?
Career Numbers:
PER - 29th
WS/48 - 63rd
VORP - 13th
Net Rating / 100 Possessions - +5 points
Only 1 MVP
Most missed shot attempts in league history
Effective shooting% - 242
True shooting% - 182
Spartans Rule
Footballguy
The FFA has the opposite of recency bias. We're a bunch of middle-aged dudes with 80s/90s nostalgia. LeBron's #1 with the younger crowd.
the moops
Footballguy
Mediocre shooter
Lebron career .588 TS%. Jordan career .569 TS%
Lebron career .345 3P%. Jordan career .327 3P%
Elite defender
Lebron 9 times all defense. Tied for 4th all time.
Create/close at GOAT level
Lebron has made 17 game-winning shots in his career, more than Kobe Bryant, who has 14. In terms of buzzer-beating victories in the playoffs, Lebron leads Michael Jordan by seven.
Lacks leadership
Lebron has managed to assemble championship teams in three cities
Jayrod
Footballguy
TripItUp
Footballguy
I do agree with this...with them you are an "old" if you think Jordan is the GOAT.
Which is obviously ridiculous but the younger generations definitely favor Lebron.
TripItUp
Footballguy
Lebron needed to assemble those teams to paint the false narrative that he is a GOAT.
No Kyrie, no Cleveland chip.
Also, nobody counts the bubble chip.
the moops
Footballguy
No Pippen. No Jordan titles. We can go round and round if you want or you can just take the loss and move on
TripItUp
Footballguy
Jordan, Barkley, Shaq, Kenny Smith and I will not be taking your so called "loss."
Kobe >> Lebron and it's not remotely close.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Still waiting for your extensive rebuttal and detailed analysis on the numbers I posted on Kobe.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Slow day at the office.
the moops
Footballguy
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Kenny Smith told him so.
the moops
Footballguy
the moops
Footballguy
Also
Shaq listed Jordan, Lebron, Kobe, Magic, and himself as top 5. He didn't specify an order.
Barkley is an idiot
Jordan is jealous that he lost the top spot to Lebron
Mister CIA
Footballguy
I think I found the worst NBA player rankings of all-time.
Yo Mama
Footballguy
Is that a link to some of the comments in this thread?
Don Quixote
Footballguy
Who doesn’t have Neil Johnston in their top 20 though?
Mister CIA
Footballguy
Duncan #31, Worthy #253, and Ginobili #318 caught my eye.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I don't blame anyone that has LeBron or Jordan as the goat. Anyone that doesn't have both in the top 3 to 5 doesn't know anything about basketball and I don't care if they played or coached for 40 plus years.
B Maverick
Footballguy
I was discussing this a while back and realized the missing piece in this debate is what era's rules are you playing? Are you playing the "you cant touch this" rules of today or the clothesline is a foul and nothing more of the 80s? Today's players are soft and if you even look at a superstar funny the refs put them on the line. Heck, you don't even need to dribble anymore. But they may also be bigger and more athletic. Who survives best in the other's era?
But back to the hill that you all will try and kill me on as an older person who has watched less and less NBA over the years because its a crap product now.......
Jordan and Russell are 1A/1B
Wilt is a great call for 3, he was dominant except when he faced playoff Russell.
I'm taking Magic and Bird over LeBron and Kobe isn't even a top 5 Laker of all time, let alone anywhere near a goat conversation.
YEAH I WROTE THESE THINGS, COME AT ME BRO!!
But back to the hill that you all will try and kill me on as an older person who has watched less and less NBA over the years because its a crap product now.......
Jordan and Russell are 1A/1B
Wilt is a great call for 3, he was dominant except when he faced playoff Russell.
I'm taking Magic and Bird over LeBron and Kobe isn't even a top 5 Laker of all time, let alone anywhere near a goat conversation.
YEAH I WROTE THESE THINGS, COME AT ME BRO!!
