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Who is the best TE of all time? (1 Viewer)

Who is the best TE of all time?

  • Mark Bavaro

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Dave Casper

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Todd Christensen

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Ben Coates

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Mike Ditka

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Tony Gonzalez

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Keith Jackson

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Brent Jones

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • John Mackey

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Ozzie Newsome

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Jay Novacek

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Jackie Smith

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Shannon Sharpe

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Kellen Winslow

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

Aaron Rudnicki

Keep Walking™
Staff member
Mark Bavaro - 2 Pro Bowls (1986, 1987) - 351/4733/39

Dave Casper - 5 Pro Bowls (1976-1980) - 378/5216/52

Todd Christensen - 5 Pro Bowls (1983-1987) - 461/5872/41

Ben Coates - 5 Pro Bowls (1994-1998) - 499/5555/50

Mike Ditka - 5 Pro Bowls (1961-1965) - 427/5812/43

Tony Gonzalez - 7 Pro Bowls (1999-2005) - 648/7810/56

Keith Jackson - 5 Pro Bowls (1988-1990, 1992, 1996) - 441/5283/49

Brent Jones - 4 Pro Bowls (1992-1995) - 417/5195/33

John Mackey - 5 Pro Bowls (1963, 1965-1968) - 331/5236/38

Ozzie Newsome - 3 Pro Bowls (1981, 1984, 1985) - 662/7980/47

Jay Novacek - 5 Pro Bowls (1991-1995) - 422/4630/29

Jackie Smith - 5 Pro Bowls (1966-1970) - 480/7918/40

Shannon Sharpe - 8 Pro Bowls (1992-1998, 2001) - 815/10060/62

Kellen Winslow - 5 Pro Bowls (1980-1983, 1987) - 541/6741/45

Just missed:

Dave Parks - 3 Pro Bowls (1964-1966) - 360/5619/44

Riley Odoms - 4 Pro Bowls (1973-1975, 1978) - 396/5755/41

 
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one season? Bavaro

"game on the line" Coates

career?-likely Tony G but Sharpe for now

 
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I went with Winslow but my favorites were Jackie Smith and Riley Odoms
:bag: I missed both and don't have room to add them now.

Jackie Smith - 5 Pro Bowls (1966-1970) - 480/7918/40

Riley Odoms - 4 Pro Bowls (1973-1975, 1978) - 396/5755/41

EDIT: Removed Parks and added Smith

 
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Ruds,

Good stats, but should be Shannon Sharpe by quite a margin.

However, this all could change as we are entering quite the era for TEs.

 
Ruds,

Good stats, but should be Shannon Sharpe by quite a margin.

However, this all could change as we are entering quite the era for TEs.
Agreed. Guys like Antonio Gates can consistently put up WR-type numbers when they are the number 1 receiving option on an offense, and that will definitely outshine premiere TEs of the past.My favorite up there is Keith Jackson, though. :thumbup:

 
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If Gates stays healthy, he'll surpass all of these guys halfway through his career.

I was torn between Sharpe and Winslow. Shannon did it longer, but Winslow was more unstoppable at his best. And contrary to above comments, Winslow really pancaked people as a run blocker. He was huge for that era and very athletic. Can't say he was a pass blocker because Coryell had him in the pattern. Sharpe should win this, I voted Winslow but the injuries shortened his career too much, and Gates is better than them all.

Some really great players on that list. I wouldn't argue with anyone picking Casper. He never gets his due. Also dominant.

 
Ruds,

Good stats, but should be Shannon Sharpe by quite a margin.

However, this all could change as we are entering quite the era for TEs.
I think it's still pretty interesting to see some of the numbers that were put up by TEs back in the day.Also, Gates has just 2 seasons under his belt and Rivers is an unknown at QB right now. Let's not crown him the best ever just yet.

 
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Ruds,

Good stats, but should be Shannon Sharpe by quite a margin.

However, this all could change as we are entering quite the era for TEs.
I think it's still pretty interesting to see some of the numbers that were put up by TEs back in the day.Also, Gates has just 2 seasons under his belt and Rivers is an unknown at QB right now. Let's not crown him the best ever just yet.
I wasn't just speaking of Gates.TEs now are featured a lot more across the league. Many TEs will have the chance to put up big numbers in a career if it is a lengthy one.

It will be interesting to see if Gonzo gets to 9 or 10 Pro Bowls.

 
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Ruds,

Good stats, but should be Shannon Sharpe by quite a margin.

However, this all could change as we are entering quite the era for TEs.
I thought you were going to say LJ Smith ....
 
Ruds,

Good stats, but should be Shannon Sharpe by quite a margin.

However, this all could change as we are entering quite the era for TEs.
I think it's still pretty interesting to see some of the numbers that were put up by TEs back in the day.Also, Gates has just 2 seasons under his belt and Rivers is an unknown at QB right now. Let's not crown him the best ever just yet.
I wasn't just speaking of Gates.TEs now are featured a lot more across the league. Many TEs will have the chance to put up big numbers in a career if it is a lengthy one.

It will be interesting to see if Gonzo gets to 9 or 10 Pro Bowls.
sorry, but the Gates comment wasn't meant for you.I think most people realize that we are now entering the golden age for NFL TEs. Guys like Gonzo, Shockey, Heap, Gates, Witten, Crumpler, McMichael have been putting up big numbers for multiple seasons plus there is a lot of potential in the new guys like Winslow, H.Miller, V.Davis etc.

A lot of these numbers will pale in comparison to the new guys 5 or 10 years from now. But, that still doesn't mean it's not worth looking back at some of the greats.

 
Ruds,

Good stats, but should be Shannon Sharpe by quite a margin.

However, this all could change as we are entering quite the era for TEs.
I think it's still pretty interesting to see some of the numbers that were put up by TEs back in the day.Also, Gates has just 2 seasons under his belt and Rivers is an unknown at QB right now. Let's not crown him the best ever just yet.
I wasn't just speaking of Gates.TEs now are featured a lot more across the league. Many TEs will have the chance to put up big numbers in a career if it is a lengthy one.

It will be interesting to see if Gonzo gets to 9 or 10 Pro Bowls.
sorry, but the Gates comment wasn't meant for you.I think most people realize that we are now entering the golden age for NFL TEs. Guys like Gonzo, Shockey, Heap, Gates, Witten, Crumpler, McMichael have been putting up big numbers for multiple seasons plus there is a lot of potential in the new guys like Winslow, H.Miller, V.Davis etc.

A lot of these numbers will pale in comparison to the new guys 5 or 10 years from now. But, that still doesn't mean it's not worth looking back at some of the greats.
Agreed.We could be entering in to a "compare him to his peers" type argument like baseball does.

Hitting 50 HRs isn't a big deal now, much like 1,000 yards rushing isn't nearly as big a deal as before a 16 game schedule.

 
Ruds,

Good stats, but should be Shannon Sharpe by quite a margin.

However, this all could change as we are entering quite the era for TEs.
Why? Winslow was a better TE receiving-wise but he didn't play as long and besides Ditka was the best all-around TE ever.
 
vernon davis

It's close between Gonzo, Sharpe, Ditka and KW IMO, I went with Gonzo as he's a large part of the redefining of the position. Plus, he's easily my favorite TE.

 
Gates is a long way away from consideration and maybe he will fade out the rest of his career, but consider that he:

- Had the 6th and 18th most receptions for TE in a season.

- Had the 11th and 27th most receiving yards for TE in a season.

- Had the #1 and #10 most TD receptions for a TE in a season.

- Had the #6 and #8 best fantasy scoring seasons for a TE in a season.

 
If you're talking about guys in their prime I'll go with Bavaro. My guess is the votes here will be heavily swayed towards stats. That's just how it works in this day and age. Yet, if you combine both offensive production and blocking ability I think Bavaro was the most devastating force I've seen. What he brought to the table does more to help a team win that just dominating in one phase of the game. Unfortunately Bavaro's career dropped quickly and he is often overlooked when discussing great players.

 
If you're talking about guys in their prime I'll go with Bavaro. My guess is the votes here will be heavily swayed towards stats. That's just how it works in this day and age. Yet, if you combine both offensive production and blocking ability I think Bavaro was the most devastating force I've seen. What he brought to the table does more to help a team win that just dominating in one phase of the game. Unfortunately Bavaro's career dropped quickly and he is often overlooked when discussing great players.
I was wondering how to look at this in general. It seems like there have been several solid TE for about a 5-year stretch but some of the ones that had longer careers were more of receiving threats than necessarily great blockers.
 
I think most people realize that we are now entering the golden age for NFL TEs.
Here is a little more on that, from my blog over at p-f-r:http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/wordpress/?p=4

Maybe it’s the new rules — or rather the new enforcement of the old rules, starting in 2004 — that is creating a glut of pass-catching tight ends. Or maybe it’s just a fluke that several good ones have entered the league in the past few years. In 2005 tight ends accounted for 18.2% of receiving yardage, which is the highest figure since 1985. Below is a table indicating the percentage of receiving yards and TDs accounted for by tight ends each year since 1978.

Code:
Year   PctYD   PctTD   Top Tight Ends1978    17.6    22.2   Childs (869/4), Casper (852/9)1979    16.9    20.6   Childs (846/5), Newsome (781/9)1980    16.7    22.2   Winslow (1290/9), Casper (796/4)1981    16.6    22.0   Winslow (1075/10), Senser (1004/8)1982    18.6    25.6   Winslow (721/6), Newsome (633/3)1983    18.7    24.7   Christensen (1247/12), Winslow (1172/8)1984    20.3    24.1   Christensen (1007/7), Newsome (1001/5)1985    20.5    23.8   Christensen (987/6), Shuler (879/7)1986    16.5    17.7   Christensen (1153/8), Bavaro (1001/4)1987    15.9    18.4   Bavaro (867/8), Christensen (663/2)1988    14.1    15.4   Jackson (869/6), Shuler (805/5)1989    13.2    16.1   Holman (736/9), Jackson (648/3)1990    13.4    16.6   Jones (747/5), Jackson (670/6)1991    12.9    17.6   Cook (808/3), Novacek (664/4)1992    12.4    16.1   Novacek (630/6), Sharpe (640/2)1993    15.7    20.3   Sharpe (995/9), Green (942/5)1994    14.2    18.3   Coates (1174/7), Sharpe (1010/4)1995    14.8    14.7   Coates (915/6), Sharpe (756/4)1996    14.0    16.0   Sharpe (1062/10), Walls (713/10)1997    16.0    21.6   Sharpe (1107/3), Dudley (787/7)1998    15.2    20.3   Sharpe (768/10), Wycheck (768/2)1999    14.6    20.5   Gonzalez (849/11), Walls (822/12)2000    15.5    21.0   Gonzalez (1203/9), Sharpe (810/5)2001    14.5    24.3   Gonzalez (917/6), Sharpe (811/2)2002    15.4    19.7   Shockey (894/2), Heap (836/6)2003    16.7    19.7   Gonzalez (916/10), Sharpe (770/8)2004    17.3    25.8   Gonzalez (1258/7), Gates (964/13)2005    18.2    23.2   Gates (1101/10), Shockey (891/7)
This kind of tight end production was commonplace back when Christensen, Winslow, and Newsome roamed the earth. Now it’s back. And where are those extra receptions and yards coming from? From the running backs, it turns out.
Code:
Year   PctYD   PctTD   Top Receiving RBs1978    26.6    15.3   Young (704/5), Galbreath (582/2)1979    27.7    19.7   Washington (750/3), Hofer (662/2)1980    29.1    19.5   Harper (634/3), Brown (623/2)1981    27.7    21.2   Andrews (735/2), Brown (694/2)1982    25.1    18.1   Andrews (503/2), Wilder (466/1)1983    24.0    18.6   Nelson (618/0), Andrews (609/4)1984    21.0    15.7   Allen (758/5), Wilder (685/0)1985    23.1    17.3   James (1027/6), Craig (1016/6)1986    25.3    17.2   Anderson (871/8), Walker (837/2)1987    23.9    15.5   Walker (715/1), James (593/3)1988    23.9    17.5   Byars (705/4), Williams (651/3)1989    21.7    17.6   Byars (721/0), Thomas (669/6)1990    20.7    17.7   Byars (819/3), Williams (699/0)1991    18.8    14.2   Thomas (631/5), Delpino (617/1)1992    21.6    15.2   Harmon (914/1), White (641/1)1993    21.1    11.9   Kirby (874/3), Harmon (671/2)1994    21.3    13.8   Watters (719/5), Centers (647/2)1995    18.9    11.8   Centers (962/2), Loville (662/3)1996    19.0    13.4   Centers (766/7), Alstott (557/3)1997    19.2    12.7   Lee (825/3), Faulk (471/1)1998    17.7    12.5   Faulk (908/4), Lee (667/2)1999    18.7    13.4   Faulk (1048/5), Barber (609/2)2000    19.6    14.1   Anderson (853/2), Faulk (830/8)2001    18.6    13.1   Faulk (765/9), Staley (626/2)2002    19.0    14.0   Garner (941/4), Holmes (672/3)2003    18.4    12.0   Tomlinson (725/4), Holmes (690/0)2004    16.4    10.6   Westbrook (703/6), Davis (588/1)2005    15.4    10.7   Westbrook (616/4), Jordan (563/2)
It appears that last season was the first time in more than 20 years that no running back caught 700 yards worth of passes.
 
Currently I think it needs to be Sharpe. In the end I feel pretty good Gates will have surpassed him.

 
If you're talking about guys in their prime I'll go with Bavaro.  My guess is the votes here will be heavily swayed towards stats.  That's just how it works in this day and age.  Yet, if you combine both offensive production and blocking ability I think Bavaro was the most devastating force I've seen.  What he brought to the table does more to help a team win that just dominating in one phase of the game.  Unfortunately Bavaro's career dropped quickly and he is often overlooked when discussing great players.
I was wondering how to look at this in general. It seems like there have been several solid TE for about a 5-year stretch but some of the ones that had longer careers were more of receiving threats than necessarily great blockers.
In many cases some of today's TEs are simply oversized WRs. They aren't asked to sacrifice their bodies in the blocking department like a Bavaro was. Yet, IMO blocking is just as important as receiving with this position and the guys who can do both contribute that much more to a team's overall success.
 
I'm glad that at least one other person knows Old School Football and realizes that John Mackey of the Baltimore Colts (along with Mike Ditka) essentially invented the pass catching TE position back in the day. He was also on badass football player in general.

From the HoF website:

John Mackey was only the second player who performed strictly as a tight end to become a member of the Pro Football Hall of Fame. The 6-2, 224-pound Syracuse University star joined the Baltimore Colts as a No. 2 draft pick in 1963 and quickly established himself as a premier performer at his position.

He played nine seasons with the Colts and then finished his 10-year career with the San Diego Chargers in 1972. Mackey was not like other tight ends of his day, who were typically thought of as just another tackle on the line of scrimmage. John added another dimension to the position. His breakaway speed made him a legitimate long-distance threat. In 1966 for instance, six of his nine touchdown receptions came on plays of 51, 57, 64, 79, 83 and 89 yards.

Even though leg and knee injuries combined to cut short his career, he was a durable performer who missed only one game in 10 years. Mackey started every game as a rookie and then became the only first-year star to be picked for that year's Pro Bowl. He also played in four other Pro Bowls during the 1960s. For three straight years in 1966, 1967 and 1968, he was the NFL's all-league tight end.

In 10 seasons, the one-time NFL Players Association president caught 331 passes for 5,236 yards and 38 touchdowns. As a rookie, he caught 35 passes for 726 yards and a career high 20.7-yard average. That year, the Colts also utilized his speed as a kickoff return specialist and he averaged 30.1 yards on nine returns. Perhaps his most famous single play came in Super Bowl V when he grabbed a deflected pass from Johnny Unitas that produced a 75-yard touchdown, a Super Bowl record at the time.

 
From a fantasy perspective, here are some of the more notable annual rankings through their career:

Code:
Name                1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10  11  12  13  14-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Newsome, Ozzie      5   1  11   3   3   4   2   7  12  18  14  19  18	Jackson, Keith      1   2   2   5   2   5   4  37   4   	 Winslow, Kellen    21   1   1   1   2  12  38   4   4   	 Gonzalez, Tony     19  10   2   1   1   2   1   2   7   	 Coates, Ben        38  20   3   1   1   3   2   3  17  61    Casper, Dave       28  34   1   3   1   5   4   7   2  39  51 	 Christensen, Todd  58  55  32   4   1   1   1   1   3  31   	 Jordan, Steve      49  32  22  12   3   6   3   4   5   6  12  10  56	Sharpe, Shannon    33  15   4   1   2   4   1   1   1  38   2   3   5   2
 
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Hard to compare the older guys who didn't catch as many passes, but for me this is an easy choice: John Mackey was the best TE ever. I remember seeing him at the very end of his career when he no longer was the best, but he was the Babe Ruth of the position.

 
I'm glad that at least one other person knows Old School Football and realizes that John Mackey of the Baltimore Colts (along with Mike Ditka) essentially invented the pass catching TE position back in the day. 
There are a few of us old farts who realize football didn't begin in 1980. Not many here (surprise), but a few. :cool: Nice post DC. Anyway, if all you care about are stats (which apparently describes most people here - also not a surprise), Sharpe is the choice. A few of us know that isnt' the be-all/end-all though. As a Colt fan I wanna give it to Mackey, but IMO Ditka is the best ever.

 
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Aaron,

I'd be curious how this would work on a "for one season" poll. Don't wanna steal your thunder though

 
I think we can all agree that the four most important criteria are (in no particular order):

1. Blocking

2. Receiving

3. Longevity

4. Quotability

Sharpe gets very high marks in three of the four. Regarding the last category which hasn't been discussed very much yet, here is a partial list of Sharpe quotes (in no particular order):

1. "I am not a good talker, I am a great talker, because I do it so often. ... When I was in college, I'd get in the mirror 20 minutes at night before I'd go to bed and talk to myself. I'd ask questions, answer questions, and just talk in general. I've kind of perfected it now."

2. After former Broncos quarterback Brian Griese got tripped on the stairs of his home by his golden retriever Bella, and sprained his left ankle: "The dog stood up on his hind legs and gave him a push? You might want to get rid of that dog, or put him in the circus, one of the two."

3. Reflecting on his less-than-stellar high school academic career: "I didn't graduate cum laude, I graduated, 'Thank you, Lawdy.' With my grades, I couldn't have gotten out of prison."

4.. On comments by defensive tackle Daryl Gardener after his falling out with the Broncos: "It's hard to say somebody doesn't like you when they give you $5 million. I wish a lot of people didn't like me. If you're going to give me $5 million, you can hate me."

5. "Brian is so smart that he does not have to do a whole lot of thinking."

6. On $40 million quarterback Jake Plummer: "I think Mike (Shanahan) and the organization have put a lot of eggs in his basket. We just hope he doesn't trip on the way to the market."

7. On talking smack: "You know how many people have tried to shut me up in the last 11 years? A lot of them. You know who's actually been able to do it? My mom and my grandma. My brother can't do it; I'm better looking, I've got more rings and I got more money."

8. After Oakland Raiders linebacker Bill Romanowski vowed not to initiate any cheap shots against his former Denver Broncos teammates in a game: "That's awful nice of him to send that message to us. We anticipate the worst and just hope for the best. Someone always says, 'That's not a reflection of him, he just made some bad decisions.' At some point in time, the decisions reflect the person."

9. Phone call he pretended to make, for the benefit of television viewers, late in a 1996 Denver rout of New England: "President, call in the National Guard! Send as many men as you can spare! Because we are killing the Patriots! They need emergency help!"

10. On Giants defensive back Jason Sehorn's money portfolio vs. his own: "He's probably got more money; he's got a wife that's an actress. My girlfriend doesn't work."

11. On his first job: "Field labor, cropping tobacco. I knew I didn't want to do that for the rest of my life. I wanted to be a lawyer, but then I realized that Perry Mason and Andy Griffin weren't real."

12. Advice to Siragusa: "I'd tell him to stay away from the crab shacks and the pizza parlors. Goose weighed 342 pounds at the beginning of the season; I assure you he doesn't weigh 342 at the end of the season."

13. A vow prior to Super Bowl XXXII vs. Green Bay: "If the Packers cover me one-on-one and beat my butt, then I will renounce my citizenship, move out of the country and leave all of my assets to your account."

14. On growing up poor in Georgia: "We were so poor, a robber once broke into our house and we ended up robbing the robber."

15. On Rush Limbaugh: "I don't know if Rush Limbaugh knows the difference between a screen porch and a screen play, but we'll see."

16. "Always turn to the sports page first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page is nothing but man's failures."

17. About growing up in Georgia and hating the Falcons: "I've pretty much been in Atlanta my whole life, and I never liked the Falcons. What was there to like about them? They lost all the time. If you had a pair of cleats on and you were in Fulton County (Stadium), they'd put you in the ballgame, they were so bad. For $20, you could sit in the luxury box with the owner."

18. About the four people he'd invite to a dinner party: "Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Michael Jordan and Halle Berry. I'd talk to Gates, Buffett and Jordan first, and then me and Halle would go get another table in the back that's candlelit. And I'd let them discuss whatever they want to discuss."

19. After the Broncos' 38-3 victory over the Miami in a divisional playoff game he told the Dolphins to tell coach Jimmy Johnson "to have his office ready because we're going to need it to break down film" for the Super Bowl.”

20. After knocking off the Chiefs in Arrowhead: "We came into their house. We drank all their wine. And we didn't even say 'Thank you.”

21. Someone suggests Falcons safety Eugene Robinson is a pretty darn good talker, too. Big mistake. “Eugene can't outtalk me and he can't cover me. Even though he went to Colgate, I'm smarter than him. I don't have a Harvard degree, but I can count to a million.”

22. After a game in Arrowhead he said something along the lines to the sideline fans. "this is not your house, it is our house, we own this house, and you haven't paid the rent. so now the rent is overdue, and we are taking our house back."

23. On matrimony: “Yeah, I get lonely, but I don't get near lonely enough to get married.”

24. On the Bengals: "The only way I'd play for the Cincinnati Bengals is if they gave me $20 million and didn't put my name on the back of the jersey."

25. His philosophy about stepping up in big games: "You have to go for greatness. After all, they didn't call him Alexander the Mediocre."

26. On his first trash-talking incident: "Elementary school. I had a speech class. You get to a word and the teacher says, `Fellow students, don't you help him, let me help him, and we want you to sound the words out.' So this kid got to a word he couldn't pronounce and the teacher was like, `OK, Johnny sounds like?' And I said, `Sounds like Johnny can't read.'"

27. "You couldn't tackle me in a phone booth!"

28. Monday of Super Bowl week "We've got 17,500 fans. They've got 17,500 fans. That's 35,000. How many people does this place hold? 75,000? That's 40,000 left, right? They don't care. They're going to be so drunk, they don't care who wins.''

29.“Think about what I've done this year. I got a guy suspended, got one guy cut, one coach resigned. Another thought about resigning. I'm pretty good. I might go into politics.”

 
Anyway, if all you care about are stats (which apparently describes most people here - also not a surprise), Sharpe is the choice. A few of us know that isnt' the be-all/end-all though. As a Colt fan I wanna give it to Mackey, but IMO Ditka is the best ever.
I don't even understand how stat hounds can choose Sharpe over Gonzalez. Gonzo is better at this point in his career than Sharpe in every category, and barring injury will eclipse all of Sharpe's numbers before the end of the 2008 season. And he's a much better blocker.

 
Hard to compare the older guys who didn't catch as many passes, but for me this is an easy choice:  John Mackey was the best TE ever.  I remember seeing him at the very end of his career when he no longer was the best, but he was the Babe Ruth of the position.
It seemed he was always carrying two defenders ten yards down the field until the third finally brought him down. He was a real childhood favorite of mine along with Odoms and Jackie Smith ("Bless his heart he has to be the sickest man in america." -Curt Gowdy). Then Winslow ushered in the new prototype. As for Sharpe he came along exactly at the time to statistically benefit from the rules changes intended to ignite offense. He was a great talent, but I think time will show that many current players will match him once they have full careers under the current rules.
 
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From a fantasy perspective, here are some of the more notable annual rankings through their career:

Name                1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10  11  12  13  14-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Newsome, Ozzie      5   1  11   3   3   4   2   7  12  18  14  19  18 Jackson, Keith      1   2   2   5   2   5   4  37   4     Winslow, Kellen    21   1   1   1   2  12  38   4   4     Gonzalez, Tony     19  10   2   1   1   2   1   2   7     Coates, Ben        38  20   3   1   1   3   2   3  17  61    Casper, Dave       28  34   1   3   1   5   4   7   2  39  51   Christensen, Todd  58  55  32   4   1   1   1   1   3  31     Jordan, Steve      49  32  22  12   3   6   3   4   5   6  12  10  56 Sharpe, Shannon    33  15   4   1   2   4   1   1   1  38   2   3   5   2
:thumbup: I really have to pimp my guy Casper (only 3 votes?) a little more with a few extra numbers here to consider as to just how great he really was...

First in looking at the above statistics, Casper is the only TE in the elite group pass receiving along with Sharpe and Gonzalez of ranking in the top 10 at his position for 7 consecutive seasons. We already know that nobody will dispute Casper was a far better blocker than either of these two (Sharpe-Gonzalez). But let's look some more into this 7 year run of Casper's. In '79 and '80 Casper was involved with two different teams running two TE sets with two other top 10 ranked TEs from his era. Now that's alot of two's... :D

Dave Casper Oak

1979

57

771

13.5

3

Raymond Chester Oak

1979

58

712

12.3

8

Dave Casper Hou (10 Games...Traded after 6 w/Oak)

1980

34

526

15.5

3

Dave Casper Oak (6Games)

1980

22

270

12.3

1

Mike Barber Hou

1980

59

712

12.1

5

So there were many more numbers to be had from the TE position in those two years ('79-'80) when Casper was still a dominant TE, but was forced to share numbers in the two TE set with both Chester and Barber. Casper's career touchdowns would be up there with Sharpe's if not for these back to back two TE set years. Casper (Oak) and Chester (Oak) both went to the Pro Bowl in '79.

Now let's compare Casper's best year to his other contemporary TEs (Ditka & Mackey) who played pre '78 (no 5 yard rule), when TEs were mauled all the way down the field. I only compare their best years because obviously Casper dominated the position for 7 straight years, which neither Ditka nor Mackey could come close to doing.

Dave Casper (13 Games)

1976

53

691

13.0

10

John Mackey (14 Games)

1966

50

829

16.6

9

Mike Ditka (14 Games)

1961

56

1076

19.2

12

While Ditka's rookie season really stands out due to his yards, avg and touchdowns...when pro rating Casper's numbers over 14 games, one could say his best year was better or at least equal to Mackey's best year. Then one must consider Ditka only produced top TE receiving numbers for 4 straight years before a drastic drop. Ditka never came close to duplicating any of his first four years again, in fact his production was cut well below half the rest of his career.

Casper looking a little better now to anyone?

:football:
I loved Dave Casper when I was a kid, my to the dismay of my father who hated the Raiders. He was awesome just when I started to watch football in 1976. I still have a couple of his football cards from 76 and 77.However, I think it is a little disingenuous to call Ditka and Mackey his contemporaries. They were not. They never played at the same time in the NFL at the same time that he did. I just don't think that you can consider him strictly a pre-78 wr. He did have two very good years in 76 and 77. However, the next 5 of his top 7 finishes cane in 1978 or later: so he is benefitting from tha same rules as everyone else. Most of his catches yards and TD;s come in 78 and beyond. I think his closest high level contemporaries are Raymond Chester who came in the league a few years before him and Kellen Winslow who came in the league about 5 years after him. Chester was never the TD threat that Casper was, although admittedly, I did not see his early years. Winslow was the top receiving TE in game for last 3 of Casper's productive years, before injuries just made him a shell of himself.

 
Todd Christensen put up some crazy good seasons... not the best of all time but his TE seasons are better than a lot of WRs achieve in their lifetimes

| 1982 rai | 9 | 42 510 12.1 4 || 1983 rai | 16 | 92 1247 13.6 12 || 1984 rai | 16 | 80 1007 12.6 7 || 1985 rai | 16 | 82 987 12.0 6 || 1986 rai | 16 | 95 1153 12.1 8 || 1987 rai | 12 | 47 663 14.1 2 || 1988 rai | 7 | 15 190 12.7 0 |=
 
I obviously don't consider Casper "strictly" a pre '78 TE...but the fact that Casper started his career and 7 year run as the dominant TE pre '78, under the same level playing field (i.e. rules) as both Ditka and Mackey, is why the comparison of their best years is valid and essential to point out. Along with of course the fact that all three players blocked like offensive lineman, a requirement for TEs back in the day, separating themsleves from the rest of the TEs on this list (sans Bavaro) in blocking.

The differences in what defensive players were allowed to do pre '78 was HUGE...again this is why it is valid to compare Casper with Ditka and Mackey...they were all three mauled going down the field. The fact that Casper dominated both pre '78 and after should not be overlooked here...this is a positive, not a negative.

Dave Casper was also clutch, besides having great hands and great blocking skills. His "Ghost to the Post" and "Holy Roller" plays are two of the more memorable plays in NFL history from a TE with the game on the line. And don't forget Casper was an Honorable Mention All American at Notre Dame as an Offensive Tackle back in '72...following this up as an All American TE in '73 at Notre Dame.
Again, I wouldn't argue with the choice of Carper. He was my first favorite player. But I think your facts are wrong. He did not play 7 years in the pros prior to 78 and he was not dominant for all of that stretch. He had 4 years prior to 78 (73-77); as you said, he was at ND in 73. HE first two years in the league, 74 and 75, he was not a dominant TE. While FF rank is not an end all be all assessment, his ranks those years were 28 and 34. He was not dominant until 1976, and the rules changed after 1977.
 
I'm glad that at least one other person knows Old School Football and realizes that John Mackey of the Baltimore Colts (along with Mike Ditka) essentially invented the pass catching TE position back in the day.  He was also on badass football player in general. 

From the HoF website:

John Mackey was only the second player who performed strictly as a tight end to become a member of the Pro Football Hall of Fame. The 6-2, 224-pound Syracuse University star joined the Baltimore Colts as a No. 2 draft pick in 1963 and quickly established himself as a premier performer at his position.

He played nine seasons with the Colts and then finished his 10-year career with the San Diego Chargers in 1972. Mackey was not like other tight ends of his day, who were typically thought of as just another tackle on the line of scrimmage. John added another dimension to the position. His breakaway speed made him a legitimate long-distance threat. In 1966 for instance, six of his nine touchdown receptions came on plays of 51, 57, 64, 79, 83 and 89 yards.

Even though leg and knee injuries combined to cut short his career, he was a durable performer who missed only one game in 10 years. Mackey started every game as a rookie and then became the only first-year star to be picked for that year's Pro Bowl. He also played in four other Pro Bowls during the 1960s. For three straight years in 1966, 1967 and 1968, he was the NFL's all-league tight end.

In 10 seasons, the one-time NFL Players Association president caught 331 passes for 5,236 yards and 38 touchdowns. As a rookie, he caught 35 passes for 726 yards and a career high 20.7-yard average. That year, the Colts also utilized his speed as a kickoff return specialist and he averaged 30.1 yards on nine returns. Perhaps his most famous single play came in Super Bowl V when he grabbed a deflected pass from Johnny Unitas that produced a 75-yard touchdown, a Super Bowl record at the time.
Being a Colts fan I agree with you about Mackey, but Winslow Sr. took the position to another level also unheard of at the time.
 
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As a 'Skins fan, I have to nominate Jerry Smith, who was a pre-1978 pass catching stud at TE. He shouldn't win this poll, but he deserves consideration.

Adjusting for era, I voted for Ditka.

 
An important aspect of a TE is blocking ability, which I will reduce to run blocking only, assuming TE’s should not be in for pass plocking most of the time. A good, objective measure for run blocking ability can be defined by rushing yards from a teammate. Of the TE’s listed above, only the following TE’s played with a RB who lead his conference in yardage:

Player………………..year(s)………………team……....RB=====================================================Dave Casper ……….1980,1981……….…..Oilers…..….Earl CampbellTodd Christiansen….1985………………….raiders…….Marcus AllenBen Coates………….1995…………….……Patriots….Curtis MartinMike Ditka………….1966…………….……Bears…….Gale SayersTony Gonzales……...2001…………….……Chiefs…....Priest HolmesJay Novacheck……...1991, 1992, 1993…….Cowboys…Emmett SmithJackie Smith………...1975………………….Cardinals...Jim OtisShannon Sharpe……..1996, 1997, 1998….....Broncos…Terell DavisKellen Winslow……..1984………………….Chargers...Earnest JacksonSo, based on run blocking alone, we should be looking at comparing Casper, Novacheck, and Sharpe as the only TE’s who had a conference leading RB multiple years.If you want to throw in receiving stats after that, I don’t think you can argue for anyone other than Sharpe. Note that Sharpe got most of his yards in the run heavy Shannahan offense, a team which produced a 2,000 yard rusher and had multiple other offensive threats. IMO, this makes Sharpe’s numbers even more impressive as he was NOT the focus of the offense.

 
An important aspect of a TE is blocking ability, which I will reduce to run blocking only, assuming TE’s should not be in for pass plocking most of the time.  A good, objective measure for run blocking ability can be defined by rushing yards from a teammate.  Of the TE’s listed above, only the following TE’s played with a RB who lead his conference in yardage:

Player………………..year(s)………………team……....RB=====================================================Dave Casper ……….1980,1981……….…..Oilers…..….Earl CampbellTodd Christiansen….1985………………….raiders…….Marcus AllenBen Coates………….1995…………….……Patriots….Curtis MartinMike Ditka………….1966…………….……Bears…….Gale SayersTony Gonzales……...2001…………….……Chiefs…....Priest HolmesJay Novacheck……...1991, 1992, 1993…….Cowboys…Emmett SmithJackie Smith………...1975………………….Cardinals...Jim OtisShannon Sharpe……..1996, 1997, 1998….....Broncos…Terell DavisKellen Winslow……..1984………………….Chargers...Earnest JacksonSo, based on run blocking alone, we should be looking at comparing Casper, Novacheck, and Sharpe as the only TE’s who had a conference leading RB multiple years.If you want to throw in receiving stats after that, I don’t think you can argue for anyone other than Sharpe.  Note that Sharpe got most of his yards in the run heavy Shannahan offense, a team which produced a 2,000 yard rusher and had multiple other offensive threats.  IMO, this makes Sharpe’s numbers even more impressive as he was NOT the focus of the offense.
Is it really fair to compare blocking for Emmit Smith or Earl Campbell and blocking for Joe Morris? This can help but you need to factor in how good the RB and overall O line was to get a full understanding of the TEs contribution in the run game.
 
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An important aspect of a TE is blocking ability, which I will reduce to run blocking only, assuming TE’s should not be in for pass plocking most of the time.  A good, objective measure for run blocking ability can be defined by rushing yards from a teammate.  Of the TE’s listed above, only the following TE’s played with a RB who lead his conference in yardage:

Player………………..year(s)………………team……....RB=====================================================Dave Casper ……….1980,1981……….…..Oilers…..….Earl CampbellTodd Christiansen….1985………………….raiders…….Marcus AllenBen Coates………….1995…………….……Patriots….Curtis MartinMike Ditka………….1966…………….……Bears…….Gale SayersTony Gonzales……...2001…………….……Chiefs…....Priest HolmesJay Novacheck……...1991, 1992, 1993…….Cowboys…Emmett SmithJackie Smith………...1975………………….Cardinals...Jim OtisShannon Sharpe……..1996, 1997, 1998….....Broncos…Terell DavisKellen Winslow……..1984………………….Chargers...Earnest JacksonSo, based on run blocking alone, we should be looking at comparing Casper, Novacheck, and Sharpe as the only TE’s who had a conference leading RB multiple years.If you want to throw in receiving stats after that, I don’t think you can argue for anyone other than Sharpe.  Note that Sharpe got most of his yards in the run heavy Shannahan offense, a team which produced a 2,000 yard rusher and had multiple other offensive threats.  IMO, this makes Sharpe’s numbers even more impressive as he was NOT the focus of the offense.
Is it really fair to compare blocking for Emmitt Smith or Earl Campbell and blocking for Joe Morris? This can help but you need to factor in how good the RB and overall O line was to get a full understanding of the TEs contribution in the run game.
Would Terell Davis or Emmitt Smith be the backs that they were, without those offensive lines? probably not. Would Joe Morris lead the conference in rushing behind Denvers offensive line? maybe.It has been argued that the offensive line makes the running game work, and TE is a critical part of that offensive line.

 

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