Who is the best TE of all time? (1 Viewer)

[Boston]

An important aspect of a TE is blocking ability, which I will reduce to run blocking only, assuming TE’s should not be in for pass plocking most of the time.  A good, objective measure for run blocking ability can be defined by rushing yards from a teammate.  Of the TE’s listed above, only the following TE’s played with a RB who lead his conference in yardage:

Player………………..year(s)………………team……....RB=====================================================Dave Casper ……….1980,1981……….…..Oilers…..….Earl CampbellTodd Christiansen….1985………………….raiders…….Marcus AllenBen Coates………….1995…………….……Patriots….Curtis MartinMike Ditka………….1966…………….……Bears…….Gale SayersTony Gonzales……...2001…………….……Chiefs…....Priest HolmesJay Novacheck……...1991, 1992, 1993…….Cowboys…Emmett SmithJackie Smith………...1975………………….Cardinals...Jim OtisShannon Sharpe……..1996, 1997, 1998….....Broncos…Terell DavisKellen Winslow……..1984………………….Chargers...Earnest JacksonSo, based on run blocking alone, we should be looking at comparing Casper, Novacheck, and Sharpe as the only TE’s who had a conference leading RB multiple years.If you want to throw in receiving stats after that, I don’t think you can argue for anyone other than Sharpe.  Note that Sharpe got most of his yards in the run heavy Shannahan offense, a team which produced a 2,000 yard rusher and had multiple other offensive threats.  IMO, this makes Sharpe’s numbers even more impressive as he was NOT the focus of the offense.

Is it really fair to compare blocking for Emmitt Smith or Earl Campbell and blocking for Joe Morris? This can help but you need to factor in how good the RB and overall O line was to get a full understanding of the TEs contribution in the run game.

Would Terell Davis or Emmitt Smith be the backs that they were, without those offensive lines? probably not. Would Joe Morris lead the conference in rushing behind Denvers offensive line? maybe.It has been argued that the offensive line makes the running game work, and TE is a critical part of that offensive line.

I agree with what you're saying. What I'm saying is both Denver and Dallas had great O lines as well as big time backs so it's tough to guage how critical the role of the TE was in their blocking scheme. On the flipside the Giants needed Bavaro in a big way in the blocking game to open holes for a smallish RB or an aging OJ Anderson that was not at the level of a Emmitt Smith. The Giants had a good line but by no means were any of them Canton bound.

 

[CalBear]

So, based on run blocking alone, we should be looking at comparing Casper, Novacheck, and Sharpe as the only TE’s who had a conference leading RB multiple years.

Three points: 1) Sharpe was rarely called on to block in Denver's offense.

2) Gonzalez has been a key blocker in the best run offense in the league; the only reason there haven't been more KC backs leading the league in rushing is that neither Holmes nor LJ has played a full season since 2003.

3) Old-time TEs "blocked like offensive linemen" because offensive linemen weighed 100 pounds less than they do today.

 

[DeepOut]

Mark Bavaro - 2 Pro Bowls (1986, 1987) - 351/4733/39

Dave Casper - 5 Pro Bowls (1976-1980) - 378/5216/52

Todd Christensen - 5 Pro Bowls (1983-1987) - 461/5872/41

Ben Coates - 5 Pro Bowls (1994-1998) - 499/5555/50

Mike Ditka - 5 Pro Bowls (1961-1965) - 427/5812/43

Tony Gonzalez - 7 Pro Bowls (1999-2005) - 648/7810/56

Keith Jackson - 5 Pro Bowls (1988-1990, 1992, 1996) - 441/5283/49

Brent Jones - 4 Pro Bowls (1992-1995) - 417/5195/33

John Mackey - 5 Pro Bowls (1963, 1965-1968) - 331/5236/38

Ozzie Newsome - 3 Pro Bowls (1981, 1984, 1985) - 662/7980/47

Jay Novacek - 5 Pro Bowls (1991-1995) - 422/4630/29

Jackie Smith - 5 Pro Bowls (1966-1970) - 480/7918/40

Shannon Sharpe - 8 Pro Bowls (1992-1998, 2001) - 815/10060/62

Kellen Winslow - 5 Pro Bowls (1980-1983, 1987) - 541/6741/45

Just missed:

Dave Parks - 3 Pro Bowls (1964-1966) - 360/5619/44

Riley Odoms - 4 Pro Bowls (1973-1975, 1978) - 396/5755/41

 

[DeepOut]

This is a great discussion, guys and to me it's hard to argue with Sharpe, Ditka, Mackey, Gonzalez or even Winslow. And I agree that longevity, blocking and receptions are key factors. Some of the other factors mentioned above also have legitimate significance.

But one additional factor, added to all the others referenced make me favor Casper over others, and that's the TD to reception ratio.

Casper had 52 TDs in his career on only 378 receptions.( I/ 7.26) I'm sure the number of receptions was affected by his time in the league before the rules changes and by the years he played in the two TE offense.

The only two TEs that had more TDs were (are) Gonzalez and Sharpe, at 56 and 62 respectively. But their Tds were acumulated on 648 and 815 receptions respectively, so that the Td/reception ratio for Gonzalez and Sharpe are markedly lower. (see post above)( 1/11.57 - 1/ 13.14)

In addition, I also think it's remarkable, given this disparity in number of reception between these three, how many years Casper ranked in the top 10 (7) for TE fantasy points compared to the other two ( Sharpe 11/Gonzalez 7).( see Mike Herman's post #33 above).

Further, TEs with 50 or fewer more receptions than Casper had significantly fewer TDs.

Ditka 427/43 (1/9.95)

Jones 417/33 (1/12.63)

Novacek 422/29 (1/14.55)

Odoms 396/ 41 (1/9.65)

Only 3 TEs on the list had fewer receptions than Casper and their TDs were also signicantly lower than Casper's

Mackey 331/38 (1/8.71)

Bavaro 351/39 (1/9.00)

Parks 360/42 (1/8.57)

Of all the other TEs listed, only Parks and Mackey are close to Casper.

In addition, despite his limited number of receptions, he ranks 5th all time in yards per reception:

Smith 16.49

Mackey 15.81

Parks 15.60

Odoms 14.53

Casper 13.79

Ditka 13.61

Bavaro 13.48

All others are at 12.73 or below, notably Winslow 12.46, Sharpe 12.34 and Gonzalez 12.05.

In addition, only Sharpe and Gonzalez have more Pro Bowls than Casper (11/7/5), though several others are tied with Casper, including Ditka, Christiansen, Jackson, Novacek and Winslow.

So, all in all, though a very good case can be made for Sharpe, Gonzalez, or even Mackey, my vote goes to Casper. At the least it seems he should be among the top 3-5 vote getters. So it's hard to understand how he's received no more votes than Coates or Novacek so far.

 

[CalBear]

Casper had 52 TDs in his career on only 378 receptions. I'm sure the number of receptions was affected by his time in the league before the rules changes and by the years he played in the two TE offense.

The only two TEs that had more TDs were (are) Sharpe and Gonzalez, at 56 and 62 respectively. But their Tds were acumulated on 648 and 815 receptions respectively, so that the Td/reception ratio for Gonzalez and Sharpe are markedly lower. (see post above)

In addition, I also think it's remarkable, given this disparity in number of reception between these three, how many years Casper ranked in the top 10 (7) for TE fantasy points compared to the other two ( Sharpe 11/Gonzalez 7).( see Mike Herman's post #33 above)

That TD/reception ratio makes Casper equivalent to Bubba Franks, not Gonzo and Sharpe.

 

[moleculo]

So, based on run blocking alone, we should be looking at comparing Casper, Novacheck, and Sharpe as the only TE’s who had a conference leading RB multiple years.

Three points: 1) Sharpe was rarely called on to block in Denver's offense.

2) Gonzalez has been a key blocker in the best run offense in the league; the only reason there haven't been more KC backs leading the league in rushing is that neither Holmes nor LJ has played a full season since 2003.

3) Old-time TEs "blocked like offensive linemen" because offensive linemen weighed 100 pounds less than they do today.

1) debatable. I can't find data to prove that one way or another - what is needed to prove or disprove this is a breakdown of rushing yards by formation and/or substitution. I claim that Sharpe was on the field most of the time and downfield blocking by WR's and TE's was key to alot of TD's sucess.2) Gonzo's career is not over and he may pass Sharpe in all categories. That being said, KC has not led the conference in team rushing yards since Gonzo came into the league, whereas Sharpe/Denver has done it twice. Extend beyond leading the conference - Tony Gonzalez has participated on a team which was top 5 in the NFL for team rushing yards 5 times (1997, 1999, 2002, 2004, and 2005), whereas Sharpe has participated on a team which was top 5 in the NFL 7 times (1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 2000, 2002, and 2003). IMO, the edge in run blocking goes to Sharpe here, but it's fairly close and two good years from KC could even that up.

3) old time TE's couldn't run like WR's either.

 

[moleculo]

one thing here is beyond debate - AFC west is the conference of great TE's -

Sharpe, Gonzalez, Winslow, Casper, Christensen, and add Gates to the mix - all from the same conference.

 

[Sheriff66]

1. Winslow

2. Newsome

3a. Sharpe

3b. Gonzo

 

[DeepOut]

             Casper had 52 TDs in his career on only 378 receptions. I'm sure the number of receptions was affected by his time in the league before the rules changes and by the years he played in the two TE offense.

             The only two TEs that had more TDs were (are) Sharpe and Gonzalez, at 56 and 62 respectively. But their Tds were acumulated on 648 and 815 receptions respectively, so that the Td/reception ratio for Gonzalez and Sharpe are markedly lower. (see post above)

              In addition, I also think it's remarkable, given this disparity in number of reception between these three, how many years Casper ranked in the top 10 (7) for TE fantasy points compared to the other two ( Sharpe 11/Gonzalez 7).( see Mike Herman's post #33 above)

That TD/reception ratio makes Casper equivalent to Bubba Franks, not Gonzo and Sharpe.

The point is that Casper produced the 3rd greatest number of TDs among all TEs, despite his significantly fewer receptions. In addition, he did it, in part, playing under the "old rules" which demanded significantly more physical"wear and tear" on TEs, as well as much more blocking. Even under the new rules, Casper did much more blocking, and did it effectively( Earl Campbell - 2 rushing titles), than has Franks. Finally, Casper played part of his career in a two tight end offense which took away part of his reception/TD opportunites, yet he still maintained his productivity. Franks has not dealt with this issue either.

So, Casper strikes me as a much more productive TE than Franks, and it's hard to imagine anyone would seriously view them as comparable. Is that what you're saying?

 

[DeepOut]

Bump. Dave Casper club.