Who was the best 2B? (1 Viewer)

[Despyzer]

My brother-in-law was just asking me about Joe Morgan - if I remember seeing him play, how good he was, etc. We looked up his stats and then I said that I think the consensus opinion is that when discussing all-time best 2Bs it is between him and Rogers Hornsby with Ryno and Alomar also getting some nods. He mentioned that Hornsby's stats were more than impressive but he'd hesitate to include anyone who played when latinos and blacks weren't allowed to compete, and I agree. For this reason, Eddie Collins and Nap Lajoie really can't be considered either. I could see an argument for Bill Mazeroski, but he didn't contribute both offensively and defensively the way Morgan, Ryno, and Alomar did.

Anyway, let's break these three down:

Years played

Morgan - 22

Sandberg - 17

Alomar - 16

All-star appearances

Morgan - 10

Sandberg - 10

Alomar - 12

Top 5 in MVP balloting

Morgan - 4

Sandberg - 3

Alomar - 2

Gold gloves

Morgan - 5

Sandberg - 9

Alomar - 10

World Series appearances

Morgan - 4

Sandberg - 0

Alomar - 2

Career Batting Avg.

Morgan - .271

Sandberg - .285

Alomar - .300

Career OBP

Morgan - .392

Sandberg - .344

Alomar - .371

Career slugging

Morgan - .427

Sandberg - .452

Alomar - .443

Fielding % at 2B

Morgan - .981

Sandberg - .989

Alomar - .984

Feel free to add any other stats that you feel are pertinent to this discussion or mention another 2B that deserves consideration.

 

[MrPhoenix]

Rogers Hornsby: (relative to Morgan/Sandberg/Alomar)

Career BA: .358 (1st)

Career OBP: .434 (1st)

Career SLG: .577 (1st)

Career Fielding at 2B: .965 (4th)

Years played: 23 (1st)

All-Star appearences: ??? (couldn't find)

Top-5 MVP voting: 4 (tied for 1st, won twice)

Gold Gloves: 0 (4th)

World Series Appearances: (2nd)

 

[Despyzer]

Rogers Hornsby: (relative to Morgan/Sandberg/Alomar)

This was covered in the original post. Hornsby, Collin, and Lajoie all played at a time when latinos and blacks weren't allowed to compete. That's one reason I removed them from the discussion. Also, batting averages as a whole were WAY up during Hornsby's era. Eight players batted over .400 a total of 13 times during Hornsby's era, whereas it hasn't been done at all since 1941 (well before Morgan's day). It's okay to compare him to other players of his time for batting average (and he compares quite favorably), but not against players of the modern era.

 

[MrPhoenix]

Rogers Hornsby: (relative to Morgan/Sandberg/Alomar)

This was covered in the original post. Hornsby, Collin, and Lajoie all played at a time when latinos and blacks weren't allowed to compete. That's one reason I removed them from the discussion. Also, batting averages as a whole were WAY up during Hornsby's era. Eight players batted over .400 a total of 13 times during Hornsby's era, whereas it hasn't been done at all since 1941 (well before Morgan's day). It's okay to compare him to other players of his time for batting average (and he compares quite favorably), but not against players of the modern era.

Ok, but it's kind of unfair to that era to exclude Hornsby and Collins based on the era they played, and say that one out of a group of modern-era 2B's are the "all-time best". How can we say that stats would be different if Hornsby played in the 1980's or if Joe Morgan played in the 1920's.

 

[Despyzer]

How can we say that stats would be different if Hornsby played in the 1980's or if Joe Morgan played in the 1920's.

We can unequivocally state that Morgan's stats would be VERY different because he wouldn't have been allowed to play. It's quite easy to say that Hornsby's stats would be different because he would be facing much better pitchers, many of them black and latino. Do you honestly believe that Hornsby would have been batting 70 points better than Gwynn or Puckett if he would have been facing the same pitching?

 

[MrPhoenix]

How can we say that stats would be different if Hornsby played in the 1980's or if Joe Morgan played in the 1920's.

We can unequivocally state that Morgan's stats would be VERY different because he wouldn't have been allowed to play. It's quite easy to say that Hornsby's stats would be different because he would be facing much better pitchers, many of them black and latino. Do you honestly believe that Hornsby would have been batting 70 points better than Gwynn or Puckett if he would have been facing the same pitching?

All things being equal down?BTW, it's obvious that you're trying to tie race and stats together and I'm not even going to discuss it.

 

[Anthony Borbely]

How can we say that stats would be different if Hornsby played in the 1980's or if Joe Morgan played in the 1920's.

We can unequivocally state that Morgan's stats would be VERY different because he wouldn't have been allowed to play. It's quite easy to say that Hornsby's stats would be different because he would be facing much better pitchers, many of them black and latino. Do you honestly believe that Hornsby would have been batting 70 points better than Gwynn or Puckett if he would have been facing the same pitching?

How do you know this? The great players can hit anyone. I don't think it's even an issue.

 

[Despyzer]

All things being equal down?

I hope you can see the irony of this statement here.

BTW, it's obvious that you're trying to tie race and stats together and I'm not even going to discuss it.

No, what I am trying to do is see who people think is the best 2B. You drug in some guy that I already removed from the equation because of the diluted talent pool that he competed against. If I was trying to make this some sort of race issue, why would I have included a white guy, a black guy, and a hispanic?

 

[Despyzer]

How can we say that stats would be different if Hornsby played in the 1980's or if Joe Morgan played in the 1920's.

We can unequivocally state that Morgan's stats would be VERY different because he wouldn't have been allowed to play. It's quite easy to say that Hornsby's stats would be different because he would be facing much better pitchers, many of them black and latino. Do you honestly believe that Hornsby would have been batting 70 points better than Gwynn or Puckett if he would have been facing the same pitching?

How do you know this? The great players can hit anyone. I don't think it's even an issue.

How do I know what? That Morgan wouldn't have been allowed to play or that Hornsby would have faced consistently better pitchers?

 

[phthalatemagic]

Not having Hornsby or Lajoie in the discussion is dumb.

 

[Capella]

Not having Hornsby or Lajoie in the discussion is dumb.

Seriously. This thread sucks.

 

[Despyzer]

Not having Hornsby or Lajoie in the discussion is dumb.

I placed them in the discussion, and then I dismissed them for the reasons stated. It's difficult to compare players from different eras. It's ridiculous to do so when the eras were so wildly different. Do you have anything meaningful to contribute or do you want to continue to whine about two players that you have never even seen play?

 

[Anthony Borbely]

Hornsby would have been great in any era against any pitching. The great players would have been great in any era. To dismiss them for any reason is ridiculous.

My vote goes to Hornsby, and right behind him is Charlie Gehringer.

 

[MrPhoenix]

Not having Hornsby or Lajoie in the discussion is dumb.

Seriously. This thread sucks.

Racial arguements suck. We all have two arms, two legs, and flesh. The color of skin doesn't mean anything. Race didn't factor into the transition from the Deadball Era (late 1800s till Ruth) to the Golden Era (Ruth until WWII).

 

[Despyzer]

I said that I think the consensus opinion is that when discussing all-time best 2Bs it is between him and Rogers Hornsby

I agreed with you guys in the VERY FIRST POST. Can we move along now?I'd be interested to know why so many are voting for Morgan. He was an all-star for fewer than half his years in the league, only has about half the gold gloves as the other two, the worst fielding percentage of the three, and a drastically lower batting average. Why does he get the nod?

 

[Despyzer]

Racial arguements suck.

I'm starting to think that it's the reading comprehension that is sucking. There is no racial argument being made here.

 

[MrPhoenix]

I said that I think the consensus opinion is that when discussing all-time best 2Bs it is between him and Rogers Hornsby

I'd be interested to know why so many are voting for Morgan.

Because he's not Rogers Hornsby.

 

[MrPhoenix]

Racial arguements suck.

I'm starting to think that it's the reading comprehension that is sucking. There is no racial argument being made here.

Hornsby, Collin, and Lajoie all played at a time when latinos and blacks weren't allowed to compete. That's one reason I removed them from the discussion.

 

[Limp Ditka]

I'm not sure what makes this thread suck more, the exclusion of Hornsby and Lajoie or the inclusion of Ryne Sandberg

 

[The Kerminator]

Not having Hornsby or Lajoie in the discussion is dumb.

Seriously. This thread sucks.

Seriously sucks. A poll on who was the all-time best 2B and only three are listed? If you are going to exclude certain players because they played in an era before blacks or hispanics then you need to change the name of the poll to Best Modern-Era 2B. And to claim that their stats were skewed because the talent was diluted is, well, dillusional. You need to take into account that there were far fewer teams then then there were in Sandberg and Alomar's time. The pitching in today's game is watered down compared to the pitching talent in Hornsby's day. And if you are to limit to the modern era you need to include Craig Biggio, Julio Franco, and Lou Whittaker. And what about Jackie Robinson?

 

[Despyzer]

Racial arguements suck.

I'm starting to think that it's the reading comprehension that is sucking. There is no racial argument being made here.

Hornsby, Collin, and Lajoie all played at a time when latinos and blacks weren't allowed to compete. That's one reason I removed them from the discussion.

I didn't create the situation. To claim that I am making a racial argument simply because I pointed out the facts is a strrrrreeeeeeeetchhhhhhh.

 

[Despyzer]

And if you are to limit to the modern era you need to include Craig Biggio, Julio Franco, and Lou Whittaker. And what about Jackie Robinson?

Go ahead. Make your case. How are any of those four better than the three I listed?

 

[Zombie Kid]

When discussing who the best ballplayer of all time is, you should exclude Babe Ruth from the argument. You could adjust Ruth's standing based on the competition he played against, but it's best to just exclude him altogether.

 

[Capella]

Walter Johnson doesn't deserve to be in the all-time best SP discussion. Guy did nothing but fan a bunch of honkeys.

 

[Despyzer]

When discussing who the best ballplayer of all time is, you should exclude Babe Ruth from the argument. You could adjust Ruth's standing based on the competition he played against, but it's best to just exclude him altogether.

Nobody's been excluded. If you don't like these choices, just select "other." It's really not that hard, rookie.

 

[phthalatemagic]

And what about Jackie Robinson?

Jackie Robinson didn't count because when he played there weren't any other blacks or hispanics playing.

 

[Despyzer]

Walter Johnson doesn't deserve to be in the all-time best SP discussion. Guy did nothing but fan a bunch of honkeys.

Once again, Hornsby, Collins, and Lajoie were all in the discussion. I just didn't include them in the poll for the reasons that I provided. If you wish to vote for one of them anyway, be my guest. Be sure to give a comprehensive explanation as to why.

 

[MrPhoenix]

Walter Johnson doesn't deserve to be in the all-time best SP discussion. Guy did nothing but fan a bunch of honkeys.

Once again, Hornsby, Collins, and Lajoie were all in the discussion. I just didn't include them in the poll for the reasons that I provided. If you wish to vote for one of them anyway, be my guest. Be sure to give a comprehensive explanation as to why.

Was my first post good enough for you?

 

[MrPhoenix]

And what about Jackie Robinson?

Jackie Robinson didn't count because when he played there weren't any other blacks or hispanics playing.

CLEAR advantage here.

 

[Zombie Kid]

Top 5 players in baseball history named "Ty":

1. Ty Wigginton

2. Ty Cline

3. Ty Gainey

4. Ty Taubenheim

5. Ty Van Burkleo

 

[MrPhoenix]

Top 5 players in baseball history named "Ty":1. Ty Wigginton2. Ty Cline3. Ty Gainey4. Ty Taubenheim5. Ty Van Burkleo

Ty Cobb could really cream blacks, though. That doesn't count?

 

[phthalatemagic]

Top 5 players in baseball history named "Ty":1. Ty Wigginton2. Ty Cline3. Ty Gainey4. Ty Taubenheim5. Ty Van Burkleo

 

[Zombie Kid]

Walter Johnson doesn't deserve to be in the all-time best SP discussion. Guy did nothing but fan a bunch of honkeys.

Once again, Hornsby, Collins, and Lajoie were all in the discussion. I just didn't include them in the poll for the reasons that I provided. If you wish to vote for one of them anyway, be my guest. Be sure to give a comprehensive explanation as to why.

So if you started a poll asking who the best baseball player of all time was, you wouldn't include Ruth, but we could vote for him as "Other." Correct?

 

[Zombie Kid]

Top 5 players in baseball history named "Ty":

1. Ty Wigginton

2. Ty Cline

3. Ty Gainey

4. Ty Taubenheim

5. Ty Van Burkleo

Ty Cobb could really cream blacks, though. That doesn't count?

Apropros of nothing:http://www.cbc.ca/sports/photoessay/top10-...b-getty-350.jpg

 

[Despyzer]

And what about Jackie Robinson?

Jackie Robinson didn't count because when he played there weren't any other blacks or hispanics playing.

I didn't include Robinson because I don't think he was as good as the three I listed. If you'd like to make a case for him, be my guest.Here's how he'd stack up:All-star appearances - 4thtop 5 MVP balloting - 4thgold gloves - 4thbatting avg. - 1stobp - 1stslugging - 1stfielding - 3rdRobinson also only played about half of his games (748 out of 1364) at 2B.

 

[MrPhoenix]

Top 5 players in baseball history named "Ty":

1. Ty Wigginton

2. Ty Cline

3. Ty Gainey

4. Ty Taubenheim

5. Ty Van Burkleo

Ty Cobb could really cream blacks, though. That doesn't count?

Apropros of nothing:http://www.cbc.ca/sports/photoessay/top10-...b-getty-350.jpg

 

[Despyzer]

Walter Johnson doesn't deserve to be in the all-time best SP discussion. Guy did nothing but fan a bunch of honkeys.

Once again, Hornsby, Collins, and Lajoie were all in the discussion. I just didn't include them in the poll for the reasons that I provided. If you wish to vote for one of them anyway, be my guest. Be sure to give a comprehensive explanation as to why.

Was my first post good enough for you?

Are you Capella's less witty alias?

 

[Zombie Kid]

And what about Jackie Robinson?

Jackie Robinson didn't count because when he played there weren't any other blacks or hispanics playing.

I didn't include Robinson because I don't think he was as good as the three I listed. If you'd like to make a case for him, be my guest.Here's how he'd stack up:

All-star appearances - 4th

top 5 MVP balloting - 4th

gold gloves - 4th

batting avg. - 1st

obp - 1st

slugging - 1st

fielding - 3rd

Robinson also only played about half of his games (748 out of 1364) at 2B.

Good enough for me, although one needs to adjust for era.That he trailed the others in awards that are voted upon really isn't that surprising, given the racial climate. He also debuted at the age of 27 playing a young man's position, when it's obvious he could've played several years earlier were it not for racial segregation. But in his 6 peak years he was stunningly good.

I think he's better than Alomar and Sandberg for sure, Morgan is close. Hornsby is still #1 though.

 

[MrPhoenix]

Walter Johnson doesn't deserve to be in the all-time best SP discussion. Guy did nothing but fan a bunch of honkeys.

Once again, Hornsby, Collins, and Lajoie were all in the discussion. I just didn't include them in the poll for the reasons that I provided. If you wish to vote for one of them anyway, be my guest. Be sure to give a comprehensive explanation as to why.

Was my first post good enough for you?

Are you Capella's less witty alias?

Are you getting frustrated?

 

[Zombie Kid]

Walter Johnson doesn't deserve to be in the all-time best SP discussion. Guy did nothing but fan a bunch of honkeys.

Once again, Hornsby, Collins, and Lajoie were all in the discussion. I just didn't include them in the poll for the reasons that I provided. If you wish to vote for one of them anyway, be my guest. Be sure to give a comprehensive explanation as to why.

So if you started a poll asking who the best baseball player of all time was, you wouldn't include Ruth, but we could vote for him as "Other." Correct?

Bump.

 

[Zombie Kid]

BTW, Hornsby led the NL in BA, OBP and SLG for SIX straight years. Not just 2B, everyone.

Discussion over.

 

[Anthony Borbely]

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Not having Hornsby or Lajoie in the discussion is dumb.

Seriously. This thread sucks.

Horrible up to this point.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Nap Lajoie played in the deadball era as did Collins so their stats compare to modern day players. Nap's career OPS+ was 150! 150 I said! Three times his OPS + was 199 or better which is simply off the charts.

He was facing Rube Wadell, Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Chief Bender, and Jack Chesbro. Are you kidding me? Those five could have played in any era. Johnson and Wadell in particular were probably two of the five most talented pitchers to ever play the game (Gibson, Randy Johnson, Christy Mathewson would be my other three).

In 1904 LaJoie hit .376 when the league average was .244. LaJoie was easily the best player in the league that year and it wasn't even close. While players like Joe Morgan had to face the likes of Bob Gibson and Nap had to hit a ball that would fall apart by the 5th inning and play in parks where the fences like at Hilltop Park were 380 feet to right field and 45 of the 47 HRs hit there in 1904 were inside the park HRs. Lajoie had 102 RBIs that year 18 more than the second place guy and only five AL hitters hit over .300 that year. Incredible. And LaJoie had many fine years like that and that is why he was one of the original inductees into the Baseball HOF.

Also do you know what the Cleveland franchise was named? The Naps, after their second baseman. I'm not sure if Cincinnati will ever name their team the "Mumblers" after Joe Morgan but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Nap LaJoie was a better baseball player than Joe Morgan. So was Eddie Collins, and for sure Hornsby who was better than all of them. Hornsby is probably one of the ten best baseball players ever not just one of the best 2Bman. Morgan is not even top 100.

And what's with listing Sandberg?

Hornsby>LaJoie>>>Collins>Gehringer>Morgan>Carew>Frankie Frisch>Jackie Robinson>>>>>>>Alomar>>Kent>>>Sandberg

 

[Anthony Borbely]

"The Mumblers"

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Nap Lajoie played in the deadball era as did Collins so their stats compare to modern day players. Nap's career OPS+ was 150! 150 I said! Three times his OPS + was 199 or better which is simply off the charts. He was facing Rube Wadell, Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Chief Bender, and Jack Chesbro. Are you kidding me? Those five could have played in any era. Johnson and Wadell in particular were probably two of the five most talented pitchers to ever play the game (Gibson, Randy Johnson, Christy Mathewson would be my other three). In 1904 LaJoie hit .376 when the league average was .244. LaJoie was easily the best player in the league that year and it wasn't even close. While players like Joe Morgan had to face the likes of Bob Gibson and LaJoie did not Nap had to hit a ball that would fall apart by the 5th inning and play in parks where the fences like at Hilltop Park were 380 feet to right field and 45 of the 47 HRs hit there in 1904 were inside the park HRs. Lajoie had 102 RBIs that year 18 more than the second place guy and only five AL hitters hit over .300 that year. Incredible. And LaJoie had many fine years like that and that is why he was one of the original inductees into the Baseball HOF. Also do you know what the Cleveland franchise was named? The Naps, after their second baseman. I'm not sure if Cincinnati will ever name their team the "Mumblers" after Joe Morgan but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Nap LaJoie was a better baseball player than Joe Morgan. So was Eddie Collins, and for sure Hornsby who was better than all of them. Hornsby is probably one of the ten best baseball players ever not just one of the best 2Bman. Morgan is not even top 100. And what's with listing Sandberg? Hornsby>LaJoie>>>Collins>Gehringer>Morgan>Carew>Frankie Frisch>Jackie Robinson>>>>>>>Alomar>>Kent>>>Sandberg

 

[Please See Mine]

Please change the title of this thread to Who Was the Best Modern-Era 2B? or Who Was the Best 2B ever to Compete Against Blacks and Latinos? before I report you.

TIA

 

[Despyzer]

Walter Johnson doesn't deserve to be in the all-time best SP discussion. Guy did nothing but fan a bunch of honkeys.

Once again, Hornsby, Collins, and Lajoie were all in the discussion. I just didn't include them in the poll for the reasons that I provided. If you wish to vote for one of them anyway, be my guest. Be sure to give a comprehensive explanation as to why.

So if you started a poll asking who the best baseball player of all time was, you wouldn't include Ruth, but we could vote for him as "Other." Correct?

Bump.

If we were having a discussion where part of the criteria was players who competed at a time when all of the best athletes were allowed to compete, then yes.

 

[Despyzer]

Walter Johnson doesn't deserve to be in the all-time best SP discussion. Guy did nothing but fan a bunch of honkeys.

Once again, Hornsby, Collins, and Lajoie were all in the discussion. I just didn't include them in the poll for the reasons that I provided. If you wish to vote for one of them anyway, be my guest. Be sure to give a comprehensive explanation as to why.

Was my first post good enough for you?

Are you Capella's less witty alias?

Are you getting frustrated?

You are responding to posts addressed to Cappy and that makes you think I am frustrated?

 

[Despyzer]

BTW, Hornsby led the NL in BA, OBP and SLG for SIX straight years. Not just 2B, everyone.Discussion over.

As I have said numerous times in this thread, I agree Hornsby was great, but for the reasons given he is precluded from this poll. If you feel so impassioned about a player that you have never even seen play, feel free to start your own poll or vote "other." It's really not that difficult to understand.