Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Btw - what you described (to me) IS the only criteria for how to think about an MVP comparison. But I also get that it is tough to evaluate.....given that we often don't get to see teams play without these MVP candidates.
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Who's the 2016 NFL MVP right now? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Ghost Rider
- Start date
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I've always found that the WRs who excel with QBs like Brady, Rodgers, Manning, Favre, ect... do so because they have the great QBs that give them the opportunities to succeed. When those guys go to other teams they are usually on bad teams. They get fewer targets and fewer scoring opportunities. I don't think it's because they are bad WRs but more so because they are on a bad team overall. It does all start with the QB though.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Exactly. So how do we go about determining what makes a player an MVP when we haven't seen their team perform without them. We have to rely on performance, wins and statistics, right?
FUBAR
Footballguy
Even if we do, there's difference among backups. Take Tampa as an example - I doubt their record would be much (some, sure) different if Winston got injured this year. Same (perhaps more so after Romo returned) with Dallas. But that shouldn't factor much - having a good backup shouldn't be a negative to the starter.
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Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I've Noticed Milkman is an expert at using his imagination.Sure. Along with watching the games. And using our imaginations just a slight bit.
When your answer is "the sky is orange," that's a non-answer.
I answered your questions, you just didn't like the answers, and responded with great debate tools like "Lol," "bro," and just repeating the same opinions-passed-off-as-facts & convoluted, contrived, made-up stats.
Again, you are really not good at this debate thing. Like, really, really not good.
Agreed; I'd love to see GB beat the Cowboys, & face Atlanta.
I think GB wins that game, Rodgers outplays Ryan, & Milkman comes back to this thread, saying "see, I told you (the sky was orange)!"
Milkman
Footballguy
Milkman
Footballguy
That what's called an emotional hedge. It's because Rodgers scares the crap out you. Lol
What are you babbling about? I specifically I want GB to beat Dallas, I expect them to be able to beat Atlanta, I expect Rodgers to outplay Ryan if that game happens, and I've previously posted that I love Rodgers as a QB. But you read all that and "it's because Rodgers scares the crap" out of me?
No wonder you think the sky is orange
Milkman
Footballguy
Yeah you're emotionally hedging. It's OK it happens to the best of us.What are you babbling about? I specifically I want GB to beat Dallas, I expect them to be able to beat Atlanta, I expect Rodgers to outplay Ryan if that game happens, and I've previously posted that I love Rodgers as a QB. But you read all that and "it's because Rodgers scares the crap" out of me?
No wonder you think the sky is orange
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
And you're not making any sense, are being completely irrational, & illogical. It's OK, it happens to .....................................
you, I guess
Since you don't seem to understand basic, straight-forward language, I'll try to explain again.
in the NFC, I'm pulling for GB; I think Rodgers will outplay Ryan if the meet in the NFCC, and I hope they do. I think Aaron Rodgers is the better QB. That being said, Ryan had the better year (despite your contrived, convoluted, made-up stats), & IMO will win the MVP, deservedly so. Furthermore, with your ridiculous set of criteria for a "redraft," (only look at this years performance & stats), Ryan would be ahead of Rodgers, b/c he performed better for the entirety of this season.
Again, I'll predict your response: "the sky is orange, bro. Lol."
Milkman
Footballguy
That's still not an answer but I guess you have all you bases covered now. I like to take more of a stand with my convictions but you're kind of born with that trait so it's not your fault.And you're not making any sense, are being completely irrational, & illogical. It's OK, it happens to .....................................
you, I guess
Since you don't seem to understand basic, straight-forward language, I'll try to explain again.
in the NFC, I'm pulling for GB; I think Rodgers will outplay Ryan if the meet in the NFCC, and I hope they do. I think Aaron Rodgers is the better QB. That being said, Ryan had the better year (despite your contrived, convoluted, made-up stats), & IMO will win the MVP, deservedly so. Furthermore, with your ridiculous set of criteria for a "redraft," (only look at this years performance & stats), Ryan would be ahead of Rodgers, b/c he performed better for the entirety of this season.
Again, I'll predict your response: "the sky is orange, bro. Lol."
Gjge!
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Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I do enjoy folks trying to quantify a wholly subjective and undefined matter and then insisting that their quantifications are the definitive answer. I don't get too critical when folks do this as they are, in most instances, and homers aside, looking for fair definitional criteria that have been left out by those who created the category.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I think some lasting friendships are being forged here, I really do.
Milkman
Footballguy
Yeah all your bases are covered now Bay. If Atlanta and GB have a chance to play each other next week and Rodgers curb stomps Ryan you can say you predicted it was going to happen so it has limited the pain you will feel if it happens. It's a way for a person to never be wrong in their mind. To save face with themselves if you will. If Ryan outplays Rodgers you can come in here and say "see I told you Ryan should be MVP"!Bayhawks said:Uh......I responded to you saying I was "emotionally hedging;" there was no question.
It's a trait carried by many. Nothing to be ashamed of.
Lol
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Milkman
Footballguy
There's another emotional hedge. LOL
It's diiferent but just like David Robinson was the 95 MVP amIright?
https://youtu.be/hW4uXlRGAF0
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I seriously don't know what you're talking about. Why is it an emotional hedge. I'm not emotional about this. My opinion is that Ryan had the better year based on everything I have seen and I feel he deserves to win the MVP. My opinion also is that Rodgers is a great QB because I've seen him perform at a high level for many years. The two do not have anything to do with each other. I'm not a fan of Rodgers, Ryan or Brady but I do respect their talents and will acknowledge when they've had great years.
I'm not sure why you're so obsessed with having to be right. I get that you think Rodgers was the MVP. That's fine and I'm sure many other people out there feel that way as well. That's their opinion just like mine is that Ryan is the MVP.
Milkman
Footballguy
It's ok bay not everybody can be strong enough to stand up for what they believe in. You're not alone.OK
Milkman
Footballguy
You'll have to read the above posts on emotional hedging but you're doing it as well. Enjoy the rest of the playoffs.
Milkman
Footballguy
You're going to have to accept it at some point in your life in order to grow Bay. I didn't type it you did. Lol
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ghostguy123
Footballguy
Everyone uses different criteria. Not really a surprise there is a lot of debate for this one.
I am not sure how much I like the "how would the team perform without them" argument, mainly because we have no idea what the answer to that is, and I am not sure it would matter even if we did know the answer. As someone else said, the quality of the backup QB is the main factor in how well the team would perform if the starter went down, and I am not about to knock a guy down a peg in the MVP debate because he has a quality backup, and not gonna bump someone else up a peg in the MVP debate because they have the worst backup ever and the team would go 0-16 without them.
Stats are a good barometer, but certainly can't be the only factor. Same with wins. Same with QB rating. Brady throws a screen to Blount for 5 yards, while that same screen Ryan throws to Coleman goes for a 60 yard TD. Not real sure I can give Ryan more credit for something like that.
Ryan had a very nice year, but for me he would be 3rd on the list behind Brady and Rodgers, and I am not sure who I favor between Brady and Rodgers.
I have no problem prorating Brady's stats for THIS year because in 4 less games he had the same or more wins than both Ryan and Rodgers. If we do that, his stats line up right along with theirs. Plus I think he would have ripped those 4 teams to shreds the first 4 weeks.
Rodgers played great with not the best supporting cast. No RBs to speak of is a rather daunting task for a QB, and he made it work with flying colors. I think Brady and maybe Brees are the only other QBs who could pull something like that off. I do not think Ryan would be able to function anywhere near as well if something had happened to both Freeman and Coleman. IMO it would have been a night and day difference for Ryan's performance.
Again, Ryan had a really nice year, but I do not think he played as well as Brady or Rodgers. I think Brady played better while winning more with stupid efficiency numbers. Rodgers did more with less IMO, the main reason being the lack of NFL quality at the RB position while Ryan had a really good situation back there.
For me it is Brady, Rodgers, Ryan if ranking those three.
I am not sure how much I like the "how would the team perform without them" argument, mainly because we have no idea what the answer to that is, and I am not sure it would matter even if we did know the answer. As someone else said, the quality of the backup QB is the main factor in how well the team would perform if the starter went down, and I am not about to knock a guy down a peg in the MVP debate because he has a quality backup, and not gonna bump someone else up a peg in the MVP debate because they have the worst backup ever and the team would go 0-16 without them.
Stats are a good barometer, but certainly can't be the only factor. Same with wins. Same with QB rating. Brady throws a screen to Blount for 5 yards, while that same screen Ryan throws to Coleman goes for a 60 yard TD. Not real sure I can give Ryan more credit for something like that.
Ryan had a very nice year, but for me he would be 3rd on the list behind Brady and Rodgers, and I am not sure who I favor between Brady and Rodgers.
I have no problem prorating Brady's stats for THIS year because in 4 less games he had the same or more wins than both Ryan and Rodgers. If we do that, his stats line up right along with theirs. Plus I think he would have ripped those 4 teams to shreds the first 4 weeks.
Rodgers played great with not the best supporting cast. No RBs to speak of is a rather daunting task for a QB, and he made it work with flying colors. I think Brady and maybe Brees are the only other QBs who could pull something like that off. I do not think Ryan would be able to function anywhere near as well if something had happened to both Freeman and Coleman. IMO it would have been a night and day difference for Ryan's performance.
Again, Ryan had a really nice year, but I do not think he played as well as Brady or Rodgers. I think Brady played better while winning more with stupid efficiency numbers. Rodgers did more with less IMO, the main reason being the lack of NFL quality at the RB position while Ryan had a really good situation back there.
For me it is Brady, Rodgers, Ryan if ranking those three.
FUBAR
Footballguy
DropKick
Footballguy
They averaged about 34 points a game this year; he threw for just under 5,000 yards with a balanced offense(20 rushing TDs). That's a game manager to you?
I'll repeat something others have said numerous times here... no one is saying be is a better QB than Rodgers... just that he was the MVP this year.
DropKick
Footballguy
Since the Cowboys went 1-11 without Romo in 2015, do these bums (Ryan, Rodgers, Brady) really belong in the conversation? Three over-rated game managers with nothing but elite talent and hall of fame caliber coaching staffs!
Dak had to play under the over-arching influence of Jerry Jones; now that's pressure.! Dak forPresident MVP 2016!
Dak had to play under the over-arching influence of Jerry Jones; now that's pressure.! Dak for
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
DropKick
Footballguy
Matt Bryant was awesome this year.I don't think the 34 points and 5,000 yards are primarily due to him.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
His coach, his line, his RBs, his scheme, etc.. Yeah, he played really well. But what evidence do we have before this year that he was special? This year was an outlier -- so without any other explanation, my assumption is that it wasn't primarily due to him, but rather due to other factors.
CalBear
Footballguy
1) We're talking about MVP for this year, not "who is the best QB". And all of those other factors were there last year, too. Except this year Julio got hurt.
2) He made three Pro Bowls, finished in the top 10 in passing yardage six times, top 10 in TDs five times, and led the league in completion percentage in 2012. He's #3 in passing yardage since taking over the starting job in 2008 at age 23 (behind only Brees and Rivers). Devonta Freeman is nothing special as a RB, and his receivers outside of Julio are average at best. And Julio isn't clearly better than Jordy Nelson.
Matt Ryan has been a very solid performer at QB for a long time, in the tier with Rivers and Roethlisberger.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Julio isn clearly better than Nelson?????? I mean??????
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I feel some are really struggling with separating how good a player is and how great their career has been with how one player performed in just this one season. This is about who had the best season and deserves this year's MVP. It's not a popularity or talent contest.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I do admire the way he stays on rhythm. Rodgers is very willing to get off the rhythm of the play hoping for a bigger strike. In Rodgers best seasons he worked the quick slants and the bubble screens more than he does now. Sometimes he forgets now that a 5 or 6 yard gain on first or second down is a win. Take that easy win and move on to the next play, a bit ahead of schedule. Brady is masterful at patience until his robotic play drives the defense crazy. That is when they over adjust and Brady inserts his dagger by going over the top. Rodgers has the better and more accurate arm. He is far more mobile, he is hyper-intelligent on football knowledge and recall(as I notice Brady is as well), but Brady's patience and trust in the system is unparalleled. Rodgers is Favre, refined. Brady is Starr and Unitas merged, he is Ken Anderson's mind with Jeff George's arm.
FUBAR
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
And some are struggling to realize that the best stats does not necessarily mean the best season.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I don't think that's really getting in the way here. There needs to be some criteria to use when determining it and stats are a pretty big part of it. You can't use prior seasons when deciding and you can't use theories about who you would take in a redraft. Those are not valid arguments.
Milkman has used some stats to back up his opinion and I feel those have done more to support his argument than all the other crap he's come up with. He still hasn't made a strong enough case to sway my opinion on Ryan being the best this season though, and that's alright since they are just our own opinions. Although he seems to be treating his opinion more as fact than anything.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
The best arguments for Rodgers, in my opinion, are total touchdowns, drive sustaining first downs he created with his feet, and the fact that he has essentially won 6 elimination games in a row, now 7, though that last one does not count in the voting. In those 6 elimination games Rodgers has battled poor weather, his own injuries, injuries to Cobb, Cook, Lang, and a shifting cast of characters in his backfield. He had to adjust his game, weekly to meet new challenges and obstacles, with no margin for error. He also knew his defense was vulnerable. He stepped to the plate 6 times in a row. He did this while he and his coach were embattled in the media, unfairly I would argue. Six weeks in a row he forced the media to hold their obituaries. Lesser men might have crumbled. His season was truly remarkable, but in ways not measured by the metrics which usually, and historically have supported the award.
The problem with this argument is it is primarily narrative, and as many have argued, historically, narratives takes a back seat to record and traditional stats. Folks are, I believe, correct when they argue that it will go as it has historically gone.
The problem with this argument is it is primarily narrative, and as many have argued, historically, narratives takes a back seat to record and traditional stats. Folks are, I believe, correct when they argue that it will go as it has historically gone.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I think most would argue that his last 6 games were remarkable. The rest of the season was just good. If he performed that same way the entire season I don't think there would even be a debate that he was the MVP.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
I would tend to think that playing lights out and winning when you HAVE to win is rather valuable.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I think if folks really think about them as being 6 elimination games they are more than remarkable. That said, this is just narrative, romanticism, and easily cast aside by those who would say, yeah but, he allowed them to get in the state of needing 6 wins in a row.
I am not arguing for Rodgers. This thing belongs to Ryan, I just wanted to phrase the losing argument in a form I thought stronger than presented by some.
As I recall Ryan had some challenges of his own this year. I don't follow Atlanta but I seem to recall him having to deal with injuries to Jones, and freeman, and at least one of his O-line guys. I'm sure a passionate and informed Ryan supporter could, if they wished, move beyond stats and give us compelling narrative. Fans of most contenders can.
