What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Who's the 2016 NFL MVP right now? (2 Viewers)

You're right that he doesn't score many TDs.  But when over the past 4 years,  Jullio had averaged 109 yards receiving per game - 12 more than Antonio Brown, 25 yards more than Nelson's best 4 years (removing Nelson's down 2012 but including his 2011). maybe there's more to "how good this wr is" than scoring TDs.  

Is ted ginn a better player than Greg Olsen?
Here's the issue.  The Jordy is equal to Julio comment was made by me (point of fact, I think I posted comparing Julio to Jordy as #1 WRs for Ryan/Rodgers was "a wash").  This was in the context of Milkman saying that if you replaced Rodgers' supporting cast with Ryan's supporting cast, Rodgers would have scored 50 TDs.  This is illogical since Rodgers' WR1 is much more successful at scoring TDs than Ryan's #1.

So in the context of how this tangent of the thread started, yards per game is not as relevant as TD production.  In that area, Jordy is AT LEAST equal (if not superior) to Julio.

 
Here's the issue.  The Jordy is equal to Julio comment was made by me (point of fact, I think I posted comparing Julio to Jordy as #1 WRs for Ryan/Rodgers was "a wash").  This was in the context of Milkman saying that if you replaced Rodgers' supporting cast with Ryan's supporting cast, Rodgers would have scored 50 TDs.  This is illogical since Rodgers' WR1 is much more successful at scoring TDs than Ryan's #1.

So in the context of how this tangent of the thread started, yards per game is not as relevant as TD production.  In that area, Jordy is AT LEAST equal (if not superior) to Julio.
We could go in circles on this.  We'll disagree on the impact Julio and Nelson have on opposing defenses.  I'll also disagree with the implication that the only way to impact scoring is to score the td yourself (for example, I think Alex mack had a huge influence on the Falcons scoring this year).  

In all honesty, I keep going back and forth between Ryan and Rodgers.  Both deserve the award.  

 
You're right that he doesn't score many TDs.  But when over the past 4 years,  Jullio had averaged 109 yards receiving per game - 12 more than Antonio Brown, 25 yards more than Nelson's best 4 years (removing Nelson's down 2012 but including his 2011). maybe there's more to "how good this wr is" than scoring TDs.  

Is ted ginn a better player than Greg Olsen?
Julio gets lots of yardage, but Julio also gets lots of targets. Almost 3 targets a game more than Nelson. For Nelson to get 3 targets a game less, and still score way more TDs than Jones, suggests that Nelson has things he does better than Jones. I think he gets better separation. Jones is stronger. They're both great receivers. There's no reason to put Ryan's success in 2016 on Julio Jones--again, especially because Julio Jones has been there for many years.

By the way, here's the entire list of players who've had 3 or more seasons with 13+ TDs:

  • Jerry Rice (8)
  • TO (7)
  • Randy Moss (6)
  • Lance Alworth (3)
  • Cris Carter (3)
  • Marvin Harrison (3)
  • Jordy Nelson (3)
I'm pretty sure being on that list is a good thing. And none of the other receivers Rodgers has had over the years have done it even twice. (James Jones did it once).

Nelson is underrated as a receiver. He's among the elites in the NFL today. And, he's not the reason Rodgers succeeds, any more than Julio Jones is the reason Ryan succeeds.

 
Why is this so hard to understand.  Rodgers is a much better QB than Ryan, which directly correlates to why his top target scores more than Ryans top target 

Have Julio and Nelson swap teams and see what happens.  

What horrific logic going on here

 
Julio gets lots of yardage, but Julio also gets lots of targets. Almost 3 targets a game more than Nelson. For Nelson to get 3 targets a game less, and still score way more TDs than Jones, suggests that Nelson has things he does better than Jones. I think he gets better separation. Jones is stronger. They're both great receivers. There's no reason to put Ryan's success in 2016 on Julio Jones--again, especially because Julio Jones has been there for many years.

By the way, here's the entire list of players who've had 3 or more seasons with 13+ TDs:

  • Jerry Rice (8)
  • TO (7)
  • Randy Moss (6)
  • Lance Alworth (3)
  • Cris Carter (3)
  • Marvin Harrison (3)
  • Jordy Nelson (3)
I'm pretty sure being on that list is a good thing. And none of the other receivers Rodgers has had over the years have done it even twice. (James Jones did it once).

Nelson is underrated as a receiver. He's among the elites in the NFL today. And, he's not the reason Rodgers succeeds, any more than Julio Jones is the reason Ryan succeeds.
I won't disagree with any of this, though I do give more credit to Rodgers and Brady for the success of their receivers than any other current QB.  

For Nelson being elite, he is.  Provided your list of elite receivers extends beyond the top five.  He definitely does things his qb needs him to do. 

 
Why is this so hard to understand.  Rodgers is a much better QB than Ryan, which directly correlates to why his top target scores more than Ryans top target 

Have Julio and Nelson swap teams and see what happens.  

What horrific logic going on here
Why is this so hard to understand: Ryan's top target doesn't score much more than Ryan's second target, and Rodgers' does, which suggests that Rodgers' top target is a lot better than Rodgers' other targets. None of Rodgers' other targets in his career have scored nearly as much as Jordy. He's a special player. So is Jones. They both have been on their teams for a long time, so their QB's performance in 2016 can't be explained solely by their presence.

 
We could go in circles on this.  We'll disagree on the impact Julio and Nelson have on opposing defenses.  I'll also disagree with the implication that the only way to impact scoring is to score the td yourself (for example, I think Alex mack had a huge influence on the Falcons scoring this year).  

In all honesty, I keep going back and forth between Ryan and Rodgers.  Both deserve the award.  
We don't have to go in circles.  Again, my post, which started this whole tangent of the thread, was a reply to the comment that Rodgers would have more TDs, just by having Ryan's supporting cast.  Julio doesn't score a lot of TDs; Jordy does.  The argument that simply switching places would get Rodgers more TDs (therefore he is more valuable) was flawed.  That was the point of my post.  I went on to post that Julio was more athletic, gained far more yards, but in the context of scoring, replacing Jordy with Julio would not automatically be a gain for Rodgers. 

To say nothing of how the improved running game in Atl would likely reduce Rodgers' rushing TDs.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Why is this so hard to understand: Ryan's top target doesn't score much more than Ryan's second target, and Rodgers' does, which suggests that Rodgers' top target is a lot better than Rodgers' other targets. None of Rodgers' other targets in his career have scored nearly as much as Jordy. He's a special player. So is Jones. They both have been on their teams for a long time, so their QB's performance in 2016 can't be explained solely by their presence.
Davante adams scored the 2nd most TDs in the league this year.  In 2014, cobb scored 1 less td than Jordy. Rodgers just lit up one of the best defenses in the league largely without Jordy.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
FUBAR said:
Davante adams scored the 2nd most TDs in the league this year.  In 2014, cobb scored 1 less td than Jordy. Rodgers just lit up one of the best defenses in the league largely without Jordy.
And Ryan lit up two teams without Julio this year. 

 
And Ryan lit up two teams without Julio this year. 
And Rodgers just lit up a playoff team with a top defense after Jordy got hurt, and with no RBs. 

Rodgers always has been and always will be better than Ryan, by a LOT.

Julio Jones is also a much better WR than Jordy.  Jordy is excellent, but Julio is on another level. 

 
And Rodgers just lit up a playoff team with a top defense after Jordy got hurt, and with no RBs. 

Rodgers always has been and always will be better than Ryan, by a LOT.

Julio Jones is also a much better WR than Jordy.  Jordy is excellent, but Julio is on another level. 
And Ryan had the better season.  This is all true.

 
My bad.  Got it.

I still think Carr is the MVP.
For all of the conjecture thrown around in this thread this is one of the few points that has proof. At least you can easily rank him above Brady. Brady was out 4 games and how did the team do. Carr is out and his team looks like they would have been 0-16. 

So Carr is easily more valuable to his team then Brady is. However, it has been stated many times this award doesn't necessarily go to the most "valuable" player. 

 
For all of the conjecture thrown around in this thread this is one of the few points that has proof. At least you can easily rank him above Brady. Brady was out 4 games and how did the team do. Carr is out and his team looks like they would have been 0-16. 

So Carr is easily more valuable to his team then Brady is. However, it has been stated many times this award doesn't necessarily go to the most "valuable" player. 
Can't get on board with this at all.  The quality of the backup is irrelevant.

The Patriots would also go 0-16 with Connor Cook as their QB.  Think back to week 4 when the Pats got destroyed by Buffalo.  Every team sucks with a crappy QB.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Can't get on board with this at all.  The quality of the backup is irrelevant.

The Patriots would also go 0-16 with Connor Cook as their QB.  Think back to week 4 when the Pats got destroyed by Buffalo.  Every team sucks with a crappy QB.
How about we think back to week 3 when the Pats started their 3rd string QB and destroyed a playoff team by 27. 

 
How about we think back to week 3 when the Pats started their 3rd string QB and destroyed a playoff team by 27. 
How about you jump ahead a week when a 3rd string QB scored 0 points playing at home against the Bills. Brady came back a few weeks later and hung 41 on Buffalo.

Do Brady's numbers or the team's W-L results in the games he played change one iota based on what happened in the four games he didn't play? No.

We don't know what we don't know, so anyone can come up with an outcome of what would have happened had Brady played those first four games. Without him, they went 3-1, with him they probably would have gone 4-0. NE averaged 20 ppg without Brady playing and 30 ppg with Brady playing. However, other than Arizona, the teams he would have played . . .  at home . . . he historically has dominated.

Over the last few seasons, Brady has lit up Buffalo for 50+ twice, 49 once, two other games in the 40's, and seven games in the high 30's. Let's split the difference and give NE a win in that loss to BUF and arbitrarily say they score 40 in that game.

Brady has played Houston 3 times in New England. All three games NE scored in the 40's. Call that one another game with 40+ points. Over the last few years playing MIA in NE, the Pats have averaged 33 ppg. Brady hasn't played ARI very often, so give the Pats the same output and outcome.

A likely (but certainly impossible to prove) outcome would have been . . 

ARI - W (by the same score)
MIA - W (give the Pats another 7 points with Brady in the line up)
HOU - W (give the Pats 14 more points with Brady playing)
BUF - W (let's give NE the 41 they had a few weeks later in BUF)

That's 62 more points than they had without Brady. Add that to the 441 they banked on the season, and the Pats would have 503 points, a 15-1 record, and a scoring differential of 253 points.

Had things played out that way (and they clearly DID NOT), Brady would be looking at around 40 TDs with an equally insane TD to INT ratio and 4700-4800 passing yards. Had things ended up that way (and again, clearly they DID NOT), Brady would have been the MVP going away. People would be saying Ryan had a nice season. Only the cheese heads would be saying look at Rodgers, and there were be very little discussion about who the MVP was this year.

But we are where we are, what happened happened, and what didn't happen didn't happen. The point being, what happened when Brady DIDN'T play should not take away when he DID play.

 
As i mentioned,  i have no problem prorating bradys stats for four games.

The actual votere will not.  That is fine.

Had the pats started out 1-3 and brady took them to 12-4 and the 1 seed it sure would have "looked" better i guess.  

Not that it matters but i have this weird feeling the pats miss the playoffs if brady was out all year.

 
Not that it matters but i have this weird feeling the pats miss the playoffs if brady was out all year.
Nah. Jimmy G. would have done enough (and wasn't out long). 

They most likely would have beaten CLE, CIN, BUF. SFO, NYJ, NYJ, and LAR. Add that to the 3 wins they already had, and that's 10 wins right there.

Would they have beaten PIT without Ben? Maybe. I doubt they would have beaten MIA in MIA. Would not have beaten DEN. Hard to say with the Ravens. The defense DOMINATED that game until the special teams felt like gift wrapping Baltimore two TD's. NE probably takes that one as well.

IMO, NE would be looking at 10-11 wins if Brady never even put on his uni this season. Again, we are playing with Monopoly money on this one, so actual mileage will vary.

 
I will simply disagree with just about all of that.
Jimmy G looked as good as Brady (in limited action), the defense was stout all year, and they still had the greatest coach of our generation. They got 11 wins out of Cassel, who had been a starting QB (or really seen much action at all) in 8 years.

They would struggle against . . .

The 4-12 Rams?
The 5-11 Jets?
The 5-11 Jets?
The 2-14 Niners?
The 2-14 Browns?
The 6 win Bengals?

That would give them 9 wins. You have to admit, those teams were pretty bad this year.

You don't see them getting 1-2 more wins from:

7-9 Buffalo
8-8 Baltimore
The Steelers without Big Ben
9-7 Denver
10-6 Miami
 

 
Certainly a small sample size, but was JG's 500 yards passing in 6 quarters with 4 TD, 0 INT, and 118.1 rating just a mirage? They would have been fine. If you believe BB and JMcD, Garoppolo could run the whole playbook, and there were plays that put in for him that Brady wouldn't run.

They wouldn't have won as many games or scored as many points, but they would still have been a playoff teams and more than likely won the AFC East. Of course, there is no way to know that. BB would not suddenly forgot how to coach just because Brady wasn't playing.

 
:lmao:  at the Pats missing the playoffs this year without Brady.  They were 3-1 without him and that was arguably the toughest 4-game stretch of their season.  And half of that was without even having Garoppolo.

 
:lmao:  at the Pats missing the playoffs this year without Brady.  They were 3-1 without him and that was arguably the toughest 4-game stretch of their season.  And half of that was without even having Garoppolo.
Yep

The Texans made it with bad QBing but good defense. Pats would very likely have done the same.  Granted that division was weak.

 
Not trying to be a smart xxx but if the Pats are so good without Brady then wouldn't that lessen the case for his MVP?
This is a discussion every year and I think sometimes people take the term "most valuable player" too semantically.  I think the precedent has been set over the years that it's really more of a "who had the best season" award than literally "who's team would suffer the most if you took this player away" award.  That is, I don't think one player having a better backup than another plays any role in who wins the award.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
This is a discussion every year and I think sometimes people take the term "most valuable player" too semantically.  I think the precedent has been set over the years that it's really more of a "who had the best season" award than literally "who's team would suffer the most if you took this player away" award.  That is, I don't think one player having a better backup than another plays any role in who wins the award.
Yeah but I wasn't arguing the Patriots backup QBs are any better than anyone else's.   My point is it appears to be the team that is winning the games more than the QB behind center.

Now don't get me wrong -- I am NOT saying that Tom Brady isn't one of the greatest QBs of all time cause he is.  I'm just saying that the team seems to breeze through most regular season games no matter who is QB.

 
Yeah but I wasn't arguing the Patriots backup QBs are any better than anyone else's.   My point is it appears to be the team that is winning the games more than the QB behind center.

Now don't get me wrong -- I am NOT saying that Tom Brady isn't one of the greatest QBs of all time cause he is.  I'm just saying that the team seems to breeze through most regular season games no matter who is QB.
All of this is subjective and debatable (and ultimately not that important). Cassel won 11 games, but that was still 5 fewer regular season games and 7 total games vs. the season before. By comparison in the suxor for luxor year, the Colts dipped from 10 wins to 2 wins (net loss of 8 games).

Jimmy G winning 10 games (which after the fact we know is 4 less than Brady) and scoring 150 fewer points than Brady would be nothing to sneeze as. They most likely would have won the playoffs, but their wins and scoring totals could have been greatly impacted.

 
Ryan it is:

Pro Football Writers‏@PFWAwriters

Ryan, in his 9th NFL season, is 43rd MVP honored by PFWA. He is the 1st @AtlantaFalcons player to earn the honor & 4th consecutive QB as MVP

============

Also, Von Miller got screwed for PFW DPOY.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
All of this is subjective and debatable (and ultimately not that important). Cassel won 11 games, but that was still 5 fewer regular season games and 7 total games vs. the season before. By comparison in the suxor for luxor year, the Colts dipped from 10 wins to 2 wins (net loss of 8 games).

Jimmy G winning 10 games (which after the fact we know is 4 less than Brady) and scoring 150 fewer points than Brady would be nothing to sneeze as. They most likely would have won the playoffs, but their wins and scoring totals could have been greatly impacted.
Why do we only get to look at this one way?  You could also look at it as Brady won 10 games in 2009, which was 1 fewer game than Cassel won in 2008.

With Garropolo they beat a .500 Cardinals team and I believe were up 31-0 on a 10 win playoff Dolphins team when he got hurt.  They beat a 9 win playoff team 27-0 the next week with Brissett.  That was arguably the toughest 3 game stretch on their schedule.

I think it's likely the Pats would not only have made the playoffs, but would still have had a 1st round bye even if Brady has missed the season (presuming Garropolo stayed healthy and they didn't have to roll out Brissett every week).

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Why do we only get to look at this one way?  You could also look at it as Brady won 10 games in 2009, which was 1 fewer game than Cassel won in 2008.

With Garropolo they beat a .500 Cardinals team and I believe were up 31-0 on a 10 win playoff Dolphins team when he got hurt.  They beat a 9 win playoff team 27-0 the next week with Brissett.  That was arguably the toughest 3 game stretch on their schedule.

I think it's likely the Pats would not only have made the playoffs, but would still have had a 1st round bye even if Brady has missed the season (presuming Garropolo stayed healthy and they didn't have to roll out Brissett every week).
The debate I was having was about whether NE could just barely sneak into the playoffs, but sure, they could have been better than just sneaking in. A lot would have been different, but if Jimmy G. had to face the Dolphins in Week 17, a Dolphins win would have given them 11 wins on the season. NE may have had to win 12 games to get a bye, and who knows how the tie breakers would have fallen for them to earn one. IMO, it would have been tough to end up with 13 wins without Brady, but we are pretty much speculating what may or may not have happen with so many no Brady games.

 
Looks like Matt Ryan won the MVP.  Just saw this on Yahoo.

Update:  Looks I'm late on this since I posted without reading the latest comments.  Thanks, @moleculo!

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Anarchy99 said:
Except the more popular MVP award is the AP one, which hasn't been announced and won't be until right before the SB.
PFWA and AP have selected the same player since 2003. Extremely likely Matt Ryan won 

 
Least deserving MVP that I can remember. Never saw a wow moment all year. Stats look great and offense was great overall though so congrats to Matt Ryan for being in the right place at the right time and taking advantage of it. Taking out all knowledge we get from prior years and just using the stats and tape from this year Rodgers would be drafted in front of Matt Ryan by every team in the league including Atlanta, Rodgers threw for more TD's, had more wow plays in a game than Ryan had all year, and was a much bigger part of his teams offense. I'd say just this year he was twice a valuable. All without a running game.

 
Least deserving MVP that I can remember. Never saw a wow moment all year. Stats look great and offense was great overall though so congrats to Matt Ryan for being in the right place at the right time and taking advantage of it. Taking out all knowledge we get from prior years and just using the stats and tape from this year Rodgers would be drafted in front of Matt Ryan by every team in the league including Atlanta, Rodgers threw for more TD's, had more wow plays in a game than Ryan had all year, and was a much bigger part of his teams offense. I'd say just this year he was twice a valuable. All without a running game.
:broken record: 

 
Least deserving MVP that I can remember. Never saw a wow moment all year. Stats look great and offense was great overall though so congrats to Matt Ryan for being in the right place at the right time and taking advantage of it. Taking out all knowledge we get from prior years and just using the stats and tape from this year Rodgers would be drafted in front of Matt Ryan by every team in the league including Atlanta, Rodgers threw for more TD's, had more wow plays in a game than Ryan had all year, and was a much bigger part of his teams offense. I'd say just this year he was twice a valuable. All without a running game.
wtf. 

Ryan averaged 9.26 yards per attempt - that's the highest in NFL history. He had at least 7.91 yards per attempt in every single game.  That's a full ####### yard over the previous record Kurt Warner set in 2001 (6.87) and bested Rodgers in 15/16 games. 

 
Least deserving MVP that I can remember. Never saw a wow moment all year. Stats look great and offense was great overall though so congrats to Matt Ryan for being in the right place at the right time and taking advantage of it. Taking out all knowledge we get from prior years and just using the stats and tape from this year Rodgers would be drafted in front of Matt Ryan by every team in the league including Atlanta, Rodgers threw for more TD's, had more wow plays in a game than Ryan had all year, and was a much bigger part of his teams offense. I'd say just this year he was twice a valuable. All without a running game.
You are either trying to stir things up on here or just incredibly ignorant.

A redraft is not relevant to this season's MVP.  You don't have a historic season in the NFL just because you are in the right place at the right time.  Doing what Ryan did consistently over the course of an entire season is very impressive and deserving of the MVP award.  Brady and Rodgers also had deserving seasons but had some negatives that ultimately cost them the award.

 
Least deserving MVP that I can remember. Never saw a wow moment all year. Stats look great and offense was great overall though so congrats to Matt Ryan for being in the right place at the right time and taking advantage of it. Taking out all knowledge we get from prior years and just using the stats and tape from this year Rodgers would be drafted in front of Matt Ryan by every team in the league including Atlanta, Rodgers threw for more TD's, had more wow plays in a game than Ryan had all year, and was a much bigger part of his teams offense. I'd say just this year he was twice a valuable. All without a running game.
I'm honestly curious how many games of Ryan's you actually watched.  You have made this same point (re: rodgers drafted ahead of Ryan) over and over.  I don't believe anyone in this thread actually disagrees with you on that point.  

 
Least deserving MVP that I can remember. Never saw a wow moment all year. Stats look great and offense was great overall though so congrats to Matt Ryan for being in the right place at the right time and taking advantage of it. Taking out all knowledge we get from prior years and just using the stats and tape from this year Rodgers would be drafted in front of Matt Ryan by every team in the league including Atlanta, Rodgers threw for more TD's, had more wow plays in a game than Ryan had all year, and was a much bigger part of his teams offense. I'd say just this year he was twice a valuable. All without a running game.
:fishing:

 
Least deserving MVP that I can remember. Never saw a wow moment all year. Stats look great and offense was great overall though so congrats to Matt Ryan for being in the right place at the right time and taking advantage of it. Taking out all knowledge we get from prior years and just using the stats and tape from this year Rodgers would be drafted in front of Matt Ryan by every team in the league including Atlanta, Rodgers threw for more TD's, had more wow plays in a game than Ryan had all year, and was a much bigger part of his teams offense. I'd say just this year he was twice a valuable. All without a running game.
Take away Freeman and Coleman and give him Ryan Blount and White and Ryan would have been just about above average. Freeman and Coleman are the BEST 1-2 punch in the game. I bet 15 or so NFL Qb's could have done what Ryan did this year with those 2 STUD RB's and J. Jones and Gabriel. If Rogers or Brady had Ryan's weapons,their stats would of been much better than Ryan's were this year. I'm a Pats fan and I think Rogers should win the MVP and he probably will. Sure I'd love to see Brady win it,But after watching Rogers the last few weeks,he by far is the MVP of the league. Ryan could not have beaten Dallas if he had the same weapons Rogers had to play with last week.

 
Crystalsteam99 said:
Take away Freeman and Coleman and give him Ryan Blount and White and Ryan would have been just about above average. Freeman and Coleman are the BEST 1-2 punch in the game. I bet 15 or so NFL Qb's could have done what Ryan did this year with those 2 STUD RB's and J. Jones and Gabriel. If Rogers or Brady had Ryan's weapons,their stats would of been much better than Ryan's were this year. I'm a Pats fan and I think Rogers should win the MVP and he probably will. Sure I'd love to see Brady win it,But after watching Rogers the last few weeks,he by far is the MVP of the league. Ryan could not have beaten Dallas if he had the same weapons Rogers had to play with last week.
Devonta Freeman averaged above 4.0 ypc for the first time in his career this year. He finished 9th in rushing yards, over 500 yards behind Elliott. Coleman had 520 yards and 4.4 ypc as a backup. 

The idea that Ryan succeeded because of two middle-of-the-pack RBs--both of whom were there in 2015--is completely ridiculous.

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top