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Why are used car salesmen such asses? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Bankerguy
- Start date
clampino
Footballguy
I usually tell them up front I am not interested in any lines of BS. If they start dishing it out I walk and go buy somewhere else.
Bankerguy
Footballguy
I'm sick of them wasting my and my families time while they have their secret meeting with the Sales Manager. Seriously...what takes 20 mins to figure out? You paid X for the car, I offered you Y, does X minus Y = desired profit? I've researched the various models and features and know the market. I got so fed up and impatient after multi dealings with these clowns that I offered a $1000 more then the same vehicle that is 90 mins away. This same vehicle has more toys on it too. Well buddy after a 20 min circle jerk with his Mc Manager comes back with a deal $500 higher. i won't do that again. Anyway...we got up and left.As I wrote this...he just called back and left a message saying sure sure...lets do the original deal. I think I am going to tell him to pound salt, just over the prinicipal of it all.HOLY annoying Batman.
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johnnycakes
Footballguy
Q: How much do you want to pay per month
A: Nothing!
A: Nothing!
sjacksonfan
Footballguy
Why not go for a private seller? Better deal for sure. Just do your homework.
desert rose
Footballguy
buddy?
Tackling Dummies
Footballguy
Check Carmax or see if you have any no haggle dealers near you.
I would try reading the following if you haven't already. http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/index.html
Walton Goggins
Footballguy
I love saying that! Sometimes I'll say ten bucks and their reaction is as if I was the first to say it which clearly can't be the case.
bshell27
Footballguy
I took a Negotiation course this summer in my last semester of law school. Professor took about 20 minutes of a 4 hour class and told us the appropriate way to buy a car:
1) KBB and know what their invoice is on a new car or the lowest price for a trade.
2) Demand that price or about $500 higher (so they make something)
3) Tell them you know within $200 what they paid and will walk if they do not want to work
4) Make a copy of your driver's license before you go in and write on the copy DO NOT PULL MY CREDIT, make them sign it! When you walk in their store and give them your license it is an authorization for them to automatically pull credit and that is exactly what they are doing when you test drive.
5) When talking terms and they want to pull the car up front tell them leave it where it is (mental game they play, seeing it makes you think emotionally)
6) Any add ons tell them you want them taken off or will pay pennies on the dollar. They charge $500 for a starter that probably cost $50 or less.
7) Do not let them hold your keys, when you want to walk... WALK!
8) On a new car do not let them tell you they do not get any DEALER HOLDBACK 2-3% of the price of the car. This exists and for every car they sell the manufacturer pays the dealer this percentage. Knock it off the price!
9) No monthly payment game
This is most of the major stuff I remembered. If they say they are going to talk to the manager tell them they have 2 minutes. If they bring the manager back, tell him to go away.
1) KBB and know what their invoice is on a new car or the lowest price for a trade.
2) Demand that price or about $500 higher (so they make something)
3) Tell them you know within $200 what they paid and will walk if they do not want to work
4) Make a copy of your driver's license before you go in and write on the copy DO NOT PULL MY CREDIT, make them sign it! When you walk in their store and give them your license it is an authorization for them to automatically pull credit and that is exactly what they are doing when you test drive.
5) When talking terms and they want to pull the car up front tell them leave it where it is (mental game they play, seeing it makes you think emotionally)
6) Any add ons tell them you want them taken off or will pay pennies on the dollar. They charge $500 for a starter that probably cost $50 or less.
7) Do not let them hold your keys, when you want to walk... WALK!
8) On a new car do not let them tell you they do not get any DEALER HOLDBACK 2-3% of the price of the car. This exists and for every car they sell the manufacturer pays the dealer this percentage. Knock it off the price!
9) No monthly payment game
This is most of the major stuff I remembered. If they say they are going to talk to the manager tell them they have 2 minutes. If they bring the manager back, tell him to go away.
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videoguy505
Footballguy
BATNA.
Be willing to walk, and do it. If you're not willing to walk, you can't negotiate.
Be willing to walk, and do it. If you're not willing to walk, you can't negotiate.
bshell27
Footballguy
BATNA and WATNA, how I miss those days of negotiation.I forgot the main thing that Prof told us. INFORMATION is their power everything they ask say I don't knowHow much do you want to spend? I don't knowHow much do you want to pay per month? IDKHow much do you want to put down? IDKHow much do you owe on your car? IDKWhat kind of car do you like? IDK Etc., Etc.
Walton Goggins
Footballguy
Answer to the first three should be "Zero".
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
videoguy505
Footballguy
SpurrierisisGod
Footballguy
We just bought a used car. They had to see what they could work out and I was on my lunch break and had to go. I told them I'd come back that night.
When I got there, they "magically" couldn't get to the number I told them, so I said "not happening tonight. Call me in the morning."
They call and still not to the price I want. Told them "Out the door price of X or I'll go somewhere else"
They called 30 minutes later and said deal.
Make sure to ask for "out the door" price. Tax, tag and tiltle.
When I got there, they "magically" couldn't get to the number I told them, so I said "not happening tonight. Call me in the morning."
They call and still not to the price I want. Told them "Out the door price of X or I'll go somewhere else"
They called 30 minutes later and said deal.
Make sure to ask for "out the door" price. Tax, tag and tiltle.
videoguy505
Footballguy
Nugget
Footballguy
This is a great link!I sold cars for three years and this is exactly what we did.
The last used car I helped my BIL buy, we got pre-approved from the CU. I then took the pen from the salesman and wrote out my offer, about $1500 below where I thought I should buy the car. They came back with a higher price, I took out my pen, crossed out their number, and I came up $200. I wrote "It is just metal and numbers". Eventually the manager came out, he told me he owned the car for more than that, I countered that it was not my problem, cars depreciate every day and he should not have kept his hand up so long at the auction. We got the car after about an hour two threats to walk. We ended up about $400 less than I would have expected to pay.
Go in with a different mindset, have fun with their games. It really is just a piece of metal. Ford will make more.
skillz
Footballguy
Everyone says to walk if the dealer doesn't accept your offer. Problem is that you end up walking to another dealership where you start negotiate with another car salesman who pulls the same crap. It's just a vicious circle. That's why I understand Bankerguy's frustration with the car buying experience -- he is getting the run around in a time when car dealers should be begging the consumer to buy the car and take it off their lot.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
They all graduated Asses 101.
Gator Shawn
Footballguy
People are posting great NEW car strategies in here, but the OP specifically mentioned used cars. There is no "invoice" price on a used car. Every used car costs the dealers a little different and that information is closely kept by dealers. The last time I bought a used car, I had a contact on a message board who was a finance guy at a car dealership. He had access to a publication called the Mannheim Used Vehicle Value Index. It is evidently the "insider info" and when I brought up I knew how much the car I wanted was listed at in the Mannheim, the bull#### went away. I offered them $500 over the Mannheim auction value (which to me was the same as invoice, what they should have paid for the car). That offer was almost 5K under what the "sticker" price was. I ended up $750 over, which was still a very good deal compared to what Kelly Blue Blook or NADA Online or even Edmunds said was a good deal.
Now, I don't think private parties can get access to the Mannheim report, I think only dealers can and maybe lenders. However, there is a website called Galves.com which might be more in line with the Mannheim than with KBB. Failing that, I would think of anyone you know who may know someone that works in finance at a car dealership.
Now, I don't think private parties can get access to the Mannheim report, I think only dealers can and maybe lenders. However, there is a website called Galves.com which might be more in line with the Mannheim than with KBB. Failing that, I would think of anyone you know who may know someone that works in finance at a car dealership.
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H.K.
Footballguy
If possible, the OP can find someone who will go to the auction and buy their car for them, too. Great way to save money.
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KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
This sounds like BS.
harryhood
Footballguy
Can the same be said for negotiating trade in offers? I am looking to buy used and I know that they wont give me the balance of what I owe.
Not to say they cant give it to me and still turn about $1,500 in profit, but they will want to turn around $3K in profit for my car so they are going to be offering about 1500 less than what I am looking for. Does the buyer still hold the upper hand in this situation?
Not to say they cant give it to me and still turn about $1,500 in profit, but they will want to turn around $3K in profit for my car so they are going to be offering about 1500 less than what I am looking for. Does the buyer still hold the upper hand in this situation?
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~Haze~
Footballguy
Who gives up their keys? Seriously. If they do, it is a demonstration of compliance and the dealer knows they are in control. Know what you want, know it's value and know what you want to pay. Do your own thing and forget about them. Take control of the situation and nothing the dealer does will matter. If you find the car you like/want, tell them what you are willing to pay. If they take too long, leave and tell them to call you later and take care of it over the phone. The best advice you can take is to just stay in charge and keep things on your terms.
renesauz
IBL Representative
WOW...a lot of BS in this thread.
First...I sold cars for 5 years, and would go back to it if there were any money at all to be made in it right now. So I can speak "from the dark side".
There are several key things to keep in mind.
#1. The customers lie first. This is a statistical reality. The first words out of 80% of all "ups" is "I'm just looking. I'm not buying today." BUT...NADA statistics reveal that 70% of folks who walk on a car lot looking at cars purchase a car within 72 hours. Yeah...I know....that means that they aren't ALL lying. But it does mean that 50% of car shoppers lie to the salesman within the first 30 seconds. Why then, does the general public wonder why SOME salesman will lie back ??????? Because of this, many salesman are TAUGHT to ignore certain responses from the customer. For good reason too, because if they always listened to lines like those above, they would sell HALF the cars they do. Another common lie: "My credit is good...just quote me a payment." Big trap for a salemsn. Very frustrating since 675 is good, but 2 points different in rate from 720. Worse is the 550 who THINKS they have good credit, even though 4 dealers have already explained to them they don't. "It's a conspiracy".
#2. Here in the U.S., we do not routinely negotiate ANYTHING (consumer purchase) expect cars. Because of that, most folks are uncomfortable with doing so. They know they have to, so they try. People have no idea how rude they become, or how difficult and unrealistic they become in a car negotiation simply because of their own fears and discomforts. They THINK the salesman/dealer is going to screw them over, and it greatly effects how they act and speak to the salesman. I couldn't even begin to tell you how many asssholes I've had to deal with over the years.
#3. The salesman is a human being. I understand you want a great deal...but he wants to eat. Most of us salesman HATE THE PROCESS AS MUCH AS YOU DO!!!!!!! Why would you ever take it personal if the guy's first asking price is too high, or his trade in figure too low? It's just a starting point. Most salesman and dealers will give you a reasonable deal if you give them a chance and don't act like an #### from the get-go. Go in with some knowledge and it'll be a great deal...without the headaches. (WARNING: The customer does NOT always know a "great deal" when it's sitting in front of them!!!!) Amazingly enough, the pro (the dealer/salesman) actually does know more about the market/value then you do. KBB doesn't buy cars, and it doesn'r really sell them either.
#4. The new car advice in here is generally good. Invoice prices are readily available. On common models, a price within 2-400 of invoice is generally attainable, and usually fair for both parties. 5-800 is normal for less common models, but rare/red-hot models can sometimes command a premium.
#5. Don't get mad at the salesman talking to the manager. You'd be surprised how often he's trying to talk the manager into your offer. Contrary to popular belief, the salesman always wants to sell you a car (unless you've been an #### to him). The manager also wants to sell you a car. You want to buy a car. Quit assuming the worst.
#6. KBB is often wrong. Manheim is much more valuable (and accurate) for dealers, but not readily available to the public. If there is a large discrepancy between the two, the dealer/salesman will usually be willing to show you/explain how and why. Also...just because you think your car is "excellant" doesn't make it so. "Good" is the right call 85% of the time.
You'd be surprised how many loser deals I had to take from guys who never trusted me, never believed me, and swore up and down I was robbing them blind. You'd also be surprised at how many times I quietly coached a young kid through the process and told him to ask for a better deal because I knew the price wasn't fair. It's a rough, difficullt business...but it has a far lower percentage of crooks in it then you think. Most salesman are normal folk just trying to get by.
The biggest reason the process sucks is because there's too much info out there now. How fair is it to the dealer that the customer knows his invoice price? That the customer has a KBB telling him what's fair, even when KBB is out of whack?
First...I sold cars for 5 years, and would go back to it if there were any money at all to be made in it right now. So I can speak "from the dark side".
There are several key things to keep in mind.
#1. The customers lie first. This is a statistical reality. The first words out of 80% of all "ups" is "I'm just looking. I'm not buying today." BUT...NADA statistics reveal that 70% of folks who walk on a car lot looking at cars purchase a car within 72 hours. Yeah...I know....that means that they aren't ALL lying. But it does mean that 50% of car shoppers lie to the salesman within the first 30 seconds. Why then, does the general public wonder why SOME salesman will lie back ??????? Because of this, many salesman are TAUGHT to ignore certain responses from the customer. For good reason too, because if they always listened to lines like those above, they would sell HALF the cars they do. Another common lie: "My credit is good...just quote me a payment." Big trap for a salemsn. Very frustrating since 675 is good, but 2 points different in rate from 720. Worse is the 550 who THINKS they have good credit, even though 4 dealers have already explained to them they don't. "It's a conspiracy".
#2. Here in the U.S., we do not routinely negotiate ANYTHING (consumer purchase) expect cars. Because of that, most folks are uncomfortable with doing so. They know they have to, so they try. People have no idea how rude they become, or how difficult and unrealistic they become in a car negotiation simply because of their own fears and discomforts. They THINK the salesman/dealer is going to screw them over, and it greatly effects how they act and speak to the salesman. I couldn't even begin to tell you how many asssholes I've had to deal with over the years.
#3. The salesman is a human being. I understand you want a great deal...but he wants to eat. Most of us salesman HATE THE PROCESS AS MUCH AS YOU DO!!!!!!! Why would you ever take it personal if the guy's first asking price is too high, or his trade in figure too low? It's just a starting point. Most salesman and dealers will give you a reasonable deal if you give them a chance and don't act like an #### from the get-go. Go in with some knowledge and it'll be a great deal...without the headaches. (WARNING: The customer does NOT always know a "great deal" when it's sitting in front of them!!!!) Amazingly enough, the pro (the dealer/salesman) actually does know more about the market/value then you do. KBB doesn't buy cars, and it doesn'r really sell them either.
#4. The new car advice in here is generally good. Invoice prices are readily available. On common models, a price within 2-400 of invoice is generally attainable, and usually fair for both parties. 5-800 is normal for less common models, but rare/red-hot models can sometimes command a premium.
#5. Don't get mad at the salesman talking to the manager. You'd be surprised how often he's trying to talk the manager into your offer. Contrary to popular belief, the salesman always wants to sell you a car (unless you've been an #### to him). The manager also wants to sell you a car. You want to buy a car. Quit assuming the worst.
#6. KBB is often wrong. Manheim is much more valuable (and accurate) for dealers, but not readily available to the public. If there is a large discrepancy between the two, the dealer/salesman will usually be willing to show you/explain how and why. Also...just because you think your car is "excellant" doesn't make it so. "Good" is the right call 85% of the time.
You'd be surprised how many loser deals I had to take from guys who never trusted me, never believed me, and swore up and down I was robbing them blind. You'd also be surprised at how many times I quietly coached a young kid through the process and told him to ask for a better deal because I knew the price wasn't fair. It's a rough, difficullt business...but it has a far lower percentage of crooks in it then you think. Most salesman are normal folk just trying to get by.
The biggest reason the process sucks is because there's too much info out there now. How fair is it to the dealer that the customer knows his invoice price? That the customer has a KBB telling him what's fair, even when KBB is out of whack?
KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
How is this lying?
renesauz
IBL Representative
It is BS in most states. I don't know of anyplace where they can pull your credit without specific permission.That said...the structure by which credit scores are calculated changed a few years ago. While it's true that pulling your scredit lowers your score, they changed this so that it can only do so every few days. There's no difference between one dealer/bank pulling it, and 30 if done within a couple days of each other.If you want an accurate payment estimate (and 80% of customers do)...they really do need to pull your credit.UP NEXT: REAL ADVICE ON HOW TO SHOP (from an X-salesman)
renesauz
IBL Representative
Because half of them do!!!! (Even if it's at another lot). The statements are usually simple defense mechanisms born out of a fear of being taken advantage of. Many customers want to find their perfect car, think it over a while before even talking to the salesman. BUT...You'd be shocked how many times that perfect car is hidden out back, or sitting in the shop. And you'll never know it if A: He accepts your answer and leave you alone (lose:lose) or B: you refuse to open up to him and tell him what you're looking for or need.Yes...the salesman is trying to sell you a car. But you're trying to buy a car...LET HIM HELP YOU!!!!How is this lying?
KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
So who are the FBGs with access to Mannheim?
Because half of them do!!!! (Even if it's at another lot). The statements are usually simple defense mechanisms born out of a fear of being taken advantage of. Many customers want to find their perfect car, think it over a while before even talking to the salesman. BUT...You'd be shocked how many times that perfect car is hidden out back, or sitting in the shop. And you'll never know it if A: He accepts your answer and leave you alone (lose:lose) or B: you refuse to open up to him and tell him what you're looking for or need.Yes...the salesman is trying to sell you a car. But you're trying to buy a car...LET HIM HELP YOU!!!!How is this lying?
Hint: 72 hours is more than one day.
renesauz
IBL Representative
Reading comprehension down? They are NOT "just looking" if they buy within 72 hours. Many really do buy THAT SAME DAY.The point was that (in general) customers lie more often then the salesman. I know this from personal, first hand experiance.Because half of them do!!!! (Even if it's at another lot). The statements are usually simple defense mechanisms born out of a fear of being taken advantage of. Many customers want to find their perfect car, think it over a while before even talking to the salesman. BUT...You'd be shocked how many times that perfect car is hidden out back, or sitting in the shop. And you'll never know it if A: He accepts your answer and leave you alone (lose:lose) or B: you refuse to open up to him and tell him what you're looking for or need.Yes...the salesman is trying to sell you a car. But you're trying to buy a car...LET HIM HELP YOU!!!!How is this lying?
first and biggest mistakenever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever go shopping for a vehicle with your wife and/or kids. If you want to go for a test drive with them, that's fine. But, you know what you want already, do your research beforehand and decide how much you're willing to pay on a vehicle.When I go shopping for a vehicle that my wife is going to drive, I let her do the research and narrow it down to 4-5 cars she thinks she would like. Then we go test drive each one. I get the sales person's card and tell them I'll contact them when we're ready. When my wife tells me which one she likes best, I go to work.As the previous car salesman stated (very well imo), most people aren't used to negotiating on a purchase and this puts them in an uncomfortable position, and they are on the defensive and assuming the worst. Car salespeople have to deal with this stuff every day. Their livelihood depends on being able to squeeze the most profit out of you, while not driving you off the lot. You need to understand this, and not take it personally. They have to make a living. The dealership has to make a living, they have overhead to pay too. g'luck with your car search/purchase. I've always enjoyed shopping for vehicles
even when I've been kicked out of dealerships for making repeated, unreasonable offers.
glvsav37
Footballguy
i agree w/ the customers lieing. I've done it. But like you said, it is a defense mechanism to the bad rap that car salesmen have. No getting around it, but just as you don't know us (the customer) walking in off the street, we don't know you (the salesman). But we have a lot more to loose then you do if we get 'taken'
My beef is that while your stats may tell you that there is a 72 hour window for a buy, thats never...ever my experience. My wife and I shop for months on end b/f we are ready. But the salesman will throw a number at you and then expect you to buy it like a pack of gum.
this is the single most expensive (besides my house) item that will most likely lock me in for 3-4+ years if I buy. But some salesmen act like its no big deal.
I would go back to a guy who gave me a good-fair price, showed me some differences in features to help me make up my mind, and let me take my time over an overly aggressive guy with a great price who won't get out of my face any day.
My beef is that while your stats may tell you that there is a 72 hour window for a buy, thats never...ever my experience. My wife and I shop for months on end b/f we are ready. But the salesman will throw a number at you and then expect you to buy it like a pack of gum.
this is the single most expensive (besides my house) item that will most likely lock me in for 3-4+ years if I buy. But some salesmen act like its no big deal.
I would go back to a guy who gave me a good-fair price, showed me some differences in features to help me make up my mind, and let me take my time over an overly aggressive guy with a great price who won't get out of my face any day.
Big 'N Tasty
Footballguy
Coming from another x-carsalesman, you made some really good points in your first post about customers lieing. Just look a few responses up and some guy is saying to say "I don't know" to every question the salesman asks. Well what good is that doing, and obviously it's lieing. SO WHY IS IT OK FOR THE CUSTOMER TO LIE THEIR ### OFF AND THEN WHEN THE SALESMAN DOES IT HE'S A DISPICABLE PERSON????renesauz said:Reading comprehension down? They are NOT "just looking" if they buy within 72 hours. Many really do buy THAT SAME DAY.The point was that (in general) customers lie more often then the salesman. I know this from personal, first hand experiance.eoMMan said:renesauz said:Because half of them do!!!! (Even if it's at another lot). The statements are usually simple defense mechanisms born out of a fear of being taken advantage of. Many customers want to find their perfect car, think it over a while before even talking to the salesman. BUT...You'd be shocked how many times that perfect car is hidden out back, or sitting in the shop. And you'll never know it if A: He accepts your answer and leave you alone (lose:lose) or B: you refuse to open up to him and tell him what you're looking for or need.Yes...the salesman is trying to sell you a car. But you're trying to buy a car...LET HIM HELP YOU!!!!KnowledgeReignsSupreme said:How is this lying?renesauz said:
Blick
Footballguy
My biggest complaint about the whole process is that you HAVE to walk away at least once to get the best deal possible.
The last five vehicles I've purchased, the negotiation went basically the same way...
Me: I want to buy X vehicle for $Y (based on available research)
Salesman: Oh, I don't think we can do that. Let me ask my manager
At least 10 minutes later...
Salesman: The best we can do is $Y + $Z (generally about halfway between asking price and my price)
Me: No, I'll only pay $Y
Salesman: Let me get my manager.
Manager: There is no way we can meet your price.
Me: Then I'll have to keep shopping. (I get up to leave)
Manager: What if we take $W more off (usually about halfway between $Y and $Y + $Z). This is as low as I can go.
Me: No thanks
I go home and within 1 day the salesman calls me to say that they will accept $Y.
Why do I have to waste my time when I know that I have offered a reasonable deal ($500 or so over invoice) to begin with.
The last five vehicles I've purchased, the negotiation went basically the same way...
Me: I want to buy X vehicle for $Y (based on available research)
Salesman: Oh, I don't think we can do that. Let me ask my manager
At least 10 minutes later...
Salesman: The best we can do is $Y + $Z (generally about halfway between asking price and my price)
Me: No, I'll only pay $Y
Salesman: Let me get my manager.
Manager: There is no way we can meet your price.
Me: Then I'll have to keep shopping. (I get up to leave)
Manager: What if we take $W more off (usually about halfway between $Y and $Y + $Z). This is as low as I can go.
Me: No thanks
I go home and within 1 day the salesman calls me to say that they will accept $Y.
Why do I have to waste my time when I know that I have offered a reasonable deal ($500 or so over invoice) to begin with.
KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
Lot of ex-car salesmen getting mad in here.
glvsav37
Footballguy
difference is....you (salesman) lie to me, it could cost me thousands of dollars. I (customer) lie to you, it might cost you a sale.But in the course of a day, you have the potential to make "x" amount of sales.However, in the course of the average length of a finance agreement (3-5 yrs), I buy 1 car. it's simply a numbers argument
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