Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
And what pattern is that?'ourmanflint said:I think YOU are seeing the pattern that YOU want to see.
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Why cant Vick read defense after 8 seasonsin NFL? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter dawhole9
- Start date
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
The league has years of tape on Manning, Brady, Rivers, Brees...how come its not that easy to shut these QBs down? Can every back up QB who gets tossed into the game walk in and put up numbers like Vick? if not, how come? Why do we talk about this when it comes to Vick? Now the Bengals have tape on Vick, look out!!!
Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
The idea is Peyton Manning and others can read the defense and have good accuracy. Vick cannot read defenses nor is he as accurate. As teams showed towards the end of last season, once they adapted to his running around he started to struggle. This preseason has shown more of the same.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Vick was never able to set up the other night. Danny Watkins, rookie RG missed multiple pass blocking assignments. Now we can talk about Vick not being able to make it thru the season but the notion that Vick can't complete pass...didn't he have the highest % rate he has ever had last season? Has Vick ever had a HC like Reid and an OC like MM, or a trio of WRs like DeSean, Maclin, and now Steve Smith? Does he not have th best RB he has ever had lining up behind him? how's his RB2 after that? Is he TE capable of catching the ball when asked to? So let's see the predictions from everyone. Is Vick QB 23 on your lists? Where do you have him ranked? Some of the guys that everyone adores at QB have problems reading defenses sometimes and they're called interceptions. Vick's resume includes a playoff win in Lambeau Field, playoff runs with shaky Atlanta teams and not half as much around him as he has now. I love it though, just makes it easier to scoop him up. Buddy in the $125k FBG contest found Vick in the 4th round last night.
ourmanflint
Footballguy
Drew Henson 42Hugh Millen 41Charlie Frye 38JT O'Sullivan 35Kellen Clemens 35Drew Stanton 35Charlie Whitehurst 33Joey Harrington 32Patrick Ramsey 32JP Losman 31Trent Edwards 31Brady Quinn 29Rex Grossman 29I don't know, you tell me?And what pattern is that?'ourmanflint said:I think YOU are seeing the pattern that YOU want to see.
Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
I brought up Vick's score as he's who this thread is about. I then brought up two other recent Eagle qb's in McNabb and Vince Young. Elway and Young are two of the most famous scrambling qb's so I mentioned them instead of bringing up guys who were pure pocket passers.Drew Henson 42Hugh Millen 41Charlie Frye 38JT O'Sullivan 35Kellen Clemens 35Drew Stanton 35Charlie Whitehurst 33Joey Harrington 32Patrick Ramsey 32JP Losman 31Trent Edwards 31Brady Quinn 29Rex Grossman 29I don't know, you tell me?And what pattern is that?'ourmanflint said:I think YOU are seeing the pattern that YOU want to see.
ourmanflint
Footballguy
What about Jeff Garcia, AJ Feely and Kevin Kolb? Wasn't Kolb actually slated to be the starting QB when he got injured and Vick took over? Why didn't you mention them but yet you include Young in your sample and he hasn't played a down for the Eagles?I brought up Vick's score as he's who this thread is about. I then brought up two other recent Eagle qb's in McNabb and Vince Young. Elway and Young are two of the most famous scrambling qb's so I mentioned them instead of bringing up guys who were pure pocket passers.Drew Henson 42Hugh Millen 41Charlie Frye 38JT O'Sullivan 35Kellen Clemens 35Drew Stanton 35Charlie Whitehurst 33Joey Harrington 32Patrick Ramsey 32JP Losman 31Trent Edwards 31Brady Quinn 29Rex Grossman 29I don't know, you tell me?And what pattern is that?'ourmanflint said:I think YOU are seeing the pattern that YOU want to see.
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Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
Jeff Garcia is a good one. I should have mentioned him but I didn't easily find his wonderlic score. I only spent a few moments on google to find these scores. You're welcome to mention it when you find it. Kolb isn't a scrambler. I don't belive Feely was either. Vince Young is actually WITH the Eagles. Is there something you're trying to get at? If so you should come out and say it.
ya he was def pretty bad in atlanta and did not help them win games. if only peerless price, brian finneran, algae crumpler, and michael jenkins had a hard working gritty qb to properly employ the cerebral schemes of offensive genius jim mora jr the falcons may have gotten further than the nfc championship game.Because when he was last in, first out of the building in Atlanta for years and was lacking in the study/film department, he looked as erratic and unprepared as he's looked this year. It takes more than off-the-charts athleticism to be consistently excellent at the QB position in the NFL. It takes hard work.
Has anybody mentioned that the majority of your "Atheletic QB's" don't read defenses very well? I would suggest the reason is that all through their careers....college, NFL they have always known when things start to break down (their first option is covered) they can rely on their feet to get them out of trouble. So they don't take the time to change that mindset.
Hoss Style
Footballguy
Boy, someone's fishing hard.
Ignore the fisherman. Especially since his innuendo is coupled with extreme ignorance. There's plenty of information out there, some of it Pulitzer Prize winning, that can explain to him his flawed mindset. Arguing with him here about wonderlic scores won't change his feigned "What did I do?" attitude.
Let's talk football.
Ignore the fisherman. Especially since his innuendo is coupled with extreme ignorance. There's plenty of information out there, some of it Pulitzer Prize winning, that can explain to him his flawed mindset. Arguing with him here about wonderlic scores won't change his feigned "What did I do?" attitude.
Let's talk football.
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DawnBTVS
Footballguy
One thing you'll see is that he kept his completion % up last year in the 2nd half of the season but his issue was throwing INTs. That's partly where the decision making/ability to read defenses comes into play. It's great if you complete 4 straight passes but it doesn't mean anything if on that 5th throw, you throw an INT to end your drive.
From W11 - W15: 10 TD vs 5 INT. Pro rate that and it comes out to 32 TD vs 16 INT. Still a very solid season but the question remains whether he'll be able to keep the passing TDs up while consistently keeping the INTs low game to game and not reverting to the kind of seasons he had in Atlanta where he'd throw 15-18 TDs but tack on 12-15 INTs too.
The year he tried to "be" a pure pocket passer in 2005 (to shut up his critics who said he couldn't throw the ball), he threw just 15 TD to 13 INT and only ran the ball 102 times. He completed just over 55% of his passes total.
His weapons? A RB named Warrick Dunn who rushed for 1,400+ yards despite being an ancient 30 years old. A young WR named Roddy White who started just 8 games. A consistent veteran WR named Brian Finneran who was 3 years removed from an 800+ yard season, and another young WR named Michael Jenkins who flashed the ability to be a burner deep.
One of the things brought up is his "lack of weapons" in Atlanta but I think those critics are underselling talent like Warrick Dunn and Alge Crumpler a lot and downplaying Vick's inability to be consistently accurate and let his weapons make plays. A great, even good, QB can make marginal WRs look much better than they really are (see Brady in the early to mid 2000's, Peyton when his top guys go down, or Brees with his bevy of late rounders/undrafted guys).
From W11 - W15: 10 TD vs 5 INT. Pro rate that and it comes out to 32 TD vs 16 INT. Still a very solid season but the question remains whether he'll be able to keep the passing TDs up while consistently keeping the INTs low game to game and not reverting to the kind of seasons he had in Atlanta where he'd throw 15-18 TDs but tack on 12-15 INTs too.
The year he tried to "be" a pure pocket passer in 2005 (to shut up his critics who said he couldn't throw the ball), he threw just 15 TD to 13 INT and only ran the ball 102 times. He completed just over 55% of his passes total.
His weapons? A RB named Warrick Dunn who rushed for 1,400+ yards despite being an ancient 30 years old. A young WR named Roddy White who started just 8 games. A consistent veteran WR named Brian Finneran who was 3 years removed from an 800+ yard season, and another young WR named Michael Jenkins who flashed the ability to be a burner deep.
One of the things brought up is his "lack of weapons" in Atlanta but I think those critics are underselling talent like Warrick Dunn and Alge Crumpler a lot and downplaying Vick's inability to be consistently accurate and let his weapons make plays. A great, even good, QB can make marginal WRs look much better than they really are (see Brady in the early to mid 2000's, Peyton when his top guys go down, or Brees with his bevy of late rounders/undrafted guys).
timschochet
Footballguy
Again, he doesn't read the field as well as Brees or Peyton Manning or Brady, and he never will. Those three are among the best ever at reading the field. But i would say he reads the field as well as the average starting QB in the NFL. And certainly he reads the field much much better than Cam Newton or Jake Locker or Blaine Gabbert do right now.
Can anyone with the Vick can read defense argument please define what "read a defense" means?Also, please explain how great "defense readers" such as Brees (22 picks) and Manning (17 picks) averaged more than 1 pick a game while the simpleton Vick averaged less than half that?
Sample Wonderlic Question
The hours of daylight and darkness in SEPTEMBER are nearest equal to the hours of daylight and darkness in: 1. May 2.June 3. March 4.November
What does this have to do with how well a player can play football?
TIA.
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DawnBTVS
Footballguy
When you're essentially paying a QB $80 Million over 5 Years (6th Year voids with 35% of Snaps Taken any year), you're expecting a lot more than the ability to "read the field as well as the average starting QB in the NFL." Nevermind that said QB will be 31 years old next season and has a habit of injuring himself almost annually from running the ball.
David Garrard's put up similar TD to INT totals to Vick with a higher completion % (to arguably worse overall options) and less rushing ability. If I'm paying my franchise QB $80 Million especially on the older side of 30, I don't want to look at him and think, "Well. At least he can read the field similarly to David Garrard passing wise but just runs the ball better." By age 34 or 35, Vick's wheels aren't going to be the same and he's going to be forced to stay in the pocket due to athletic limitations. When that times comes, will he have the ability to throw the ball 30+ a game with 0 INT week to week and get by on just running for 5-15 yards a game?
I too don't understand how a QB with Vick's athleticism can't be the best to ever take the field in all facets. I think Vick's athleticism actually hurts him as a pocket passer more than it probably helps him as an overall QB.
It's telling that most of the scrambling QBs have stated publicly that they finally became "better" NFL QBs when they learned to pass out of the pocket and rely on their rushing ability as a rarely used weapon as opposed to getting by as a pocket passer while relying on their rushing abilities to bail them out.
To atl3695: The Wonderlic is a timed test. It's "supposed to" (anyway... faulty as it is) mimic the pressure scenario where you have to make an immediate decision from multiple choices while doing so in a compressed time scenario. For QBs, it'd essentially equate to the ability to quickly diagnose, make a decision, and get the ball out in X time I guess.
For a random list... It's generally assumed within NFL Headquarters that ideally a QB would test above 20, more so 25 or thereabouts. Worth pointing out: Two of the more successful franchises of the past decade IIRC averaged the highest team Wonderlic scores (New England and Indianapolis).
Alex Smith: 40
Eli Manning: 39
Brian Griese: 39
Tony Romo: 37
Drew Bledsoe: 36
Tom Brady: 33
Steve Young: 33
Philip Rivers: 30
Troy Aikman: 29
Brady Quinn: 29
Drew Brees: 28
Peyton Manning: 28
Ryan Leaf: 27
Ben Roethlisberger: 25
Brett Favre: 22
Dan Marino: 15
Terry Bradshaw: 15
Donovan McNabb: 14
David Garrard: 14
Kordell Stewart:13
Jeff George: 10
David Garrard's put up similar TD to INT totals to Vick with a higher completion % (to arguably worse overall options) and less rushing ability. If I'm paying my franchise QB $80 Million especially on the older side of 30, I don't want to look at him and think, "Well. At least he can read the field similarly to David Garrard passing wise but just runs the ball better." By age 34 or 35, Vick's wheels aren't going to be the same and he's going to be forced to stay in the pocket due to athletic limitations. When that times comes, will he have the ability to throw the ball 30+ a game with 0 INT week to week and get by on just running for 5-15 yards a game?
I too don't understand how a QB with Vick's athleticism can't be the best to ever take the field in all facets. I think Vick's athleticism actually hurts him as a pocket passer more than it probably helps him as an overall QB.
It's telling that most of the scrambling QBs have stated publicly that they finally became "better" NFL QBs when they learned to pass out of the pocket and rely on their rushing ability as a rarely used weapon as opposed to getting by as a pocket passer while relying on their rushing abilities to bail them out.
To atl3695: The Wonderlic is a timed test. It's "supposed to" (anyway... faulty as it is) mimic the pressure scenario where you have to make an immediate decision from multiple choices while doing so in a compressed time scenario. For QBs, it'd essentially equate to the ability to quickly diagnose, make a decision, and get the ball out in X time I guess.
For a random list... It's generally assumed within NFL Headquarters that ideally a QB would test above 20, more so 25 or thereabouts. Worth pointing out: Two of the more successful franchises of the past decade IIRC averaged the highest team Wonderlic scores (New England and Indianapolis).
Alex Smith: 40
Eli Manning: 39
Brian Griese: 39
Tony Romo: 37
Drew Bledsoe: 36
Tom Brady: 33
Steve Young: 33
Philip Rivers: 30
Troy Aikman: 29
Brady Quinn: 29
Drew Brees: 28
Peyton Manning: 28
Ryan Leaf: 27
Ben Roethlisberger: 25
Brett Favre: 22
Dan Marino: 15
Terry Bradshaw: 15
Donovan McNabb: 14
David Garrard: 14
Kordell Stewart:13
Jeff George: 10
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Hmm...wonder what made you choose Gerrard over other qb's in your comparison? Peyton and Brees threw many more INT's than Vick, what are you basing your Vick field reading criteria on to say he is just "average"?Regarding the Wonderlic, timed or not SAT style questions have nothing to do with whether or not you can tell if a safety is coming in on a blitz or dropping into coverage. The first two names on the list, Smith and Eli (both horrible decision makers with the football), should dispel all this Wonderlic nonsense.
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