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Why Fans Should Want a Lockout (1 Viewer)

Orange Crush

Footballguy
Why NFL Lockout Makes Sense

From the article:

5. And you, Joe Fan, you want a labor fight too. The NFL is a great product, but it's just so expensive to be a fan. It's crazily spendy to see games in person: the costs of tickets, parking, seat licenses, concessions, and the like keeps schoolteachers like me at home. But it's even pricey to watch at home, in a sense, as we free viewers "pay" with our impatient attention to games that feature increasing commercial interruptions, sponsor mentions, and product placements. The NFL even makes its tedious "replay reviews" a chance for commercial sponsorship. I watch very few games live any more, not when I can view a game on my DVR in about 30 minutes. The NFL is just getting too expensive. The game has to reduce costs, and one big cost, the major one actually, is player salaries. Don't think the owners (or the players) are just greedy. The owners are in a very competitive market, probably the most competitive market in contemporary America: the market for your leisure time. Any costs savings the owners can wring from the players will find its way into your pocket, making NFL games more accessible in person and more enjoyable at home.
He was immediately challenged in comments, arguing that owners will try to maximize their profits, and any cost savings wrung from players will have absolutely no relation to what we as fans pay for NFL entertainment. He defended his argument thusly:
I suspect for today's pro football team the extremely high costs of producing games means that their average cost and the demand schedule, representing what fans will pay to see a game, never intersect. In other words, the only way for the owners to stay afloat is to price discriminate by aggressively segmenting the market (which they do with luxury boxes, lower-bowl seats, seats that hang from the lights, etc.). The "poor person's" price will be set where the demand curve is closest to the average cost curve. If by reducing player salaries the average cost of production is lowered, then the starting point ticket prices will be lowered too as the average cost is shifted downward. Revenues will remain the same, but prices will fall. The initial post never said lower player costs will lower revenues.
It's an interesting argument, that the bulk of a team's profit comes from luxury boxes, club seats, and the seats closest to the action for which people pay a premium. And that any revenues generated by upper deck seats and television revenue is eaten up by player salaries. Thus by lowering player salaries, the pricing of "cheap seats" and tv deals will be correspondingly lowered.I don't buy it, though. Not with the NFL setting television ratings records, even with the ubiquitous commercial breaks.

 
The NFL is a monopoly. It is not a question of whether the owners get cost savings from the players it is whether a competitive product exists that would drive down the price. Honestly the players are more justified in the dispute anyway, IMO. They have the shortest careers and most violent endings of all sports. They deserve to be compensated the same as the NBA, MLB or even the NHL where players have a stake in ownership of the team they play for. They are by far the worst compensated group of athletes on the whole.

 
Why NFL Lockout Makes Sense

From the article:

5. And you, Joe Fan, you want a labor fight too. The NFL is a great product, but it's just so expensive to be a fan. It's crazily spendy to see games in person: the costs of tickets, parking, seat licenses, concessions, and the like keeps schoolteachers like me at home. But it's even pricey to watch at home, in a sense, as we free viewers "pay" with our impatient attention to games that feature increasing commercial interruptions, sponsor mentions, and product placements. The NFL even makes its tedious "replay reviews" a chance for commercial sponsorship. I watch very few games live any more, not when I can view a game on my DVR in about 30 minutes. The NFL is just getting too expensive. The game has to reduce costs, and one big cost, the major one actually, is player salaries. Don't think the owners (or the players) are just greedy. The owners are in a very competitive market, probably the most competitive market in contemporary America: the market for your leisure time. Any costs savings the owners can wring from the players will find its way into your pocket, making NFL games more accessible in person and more enjoyable at home.
The bolded would have me withdrawing from this guys class by the end of the day.
 
Why NFL Lockout Makes Sense

From the article:

5. And you, Joe Fan, you want a labor fight too. The NFL is a great product, but it's just so expensive to be a fan. It's crazily spendy to see games in person: the costs of tickets, parking, seat licenses, concessions, and the like keeps schoolteachers like me at home. But it's even pricey to watch at home, in a sense, as we free viewers "pay" with our impatient attention to games that feature increasing commercial interruptions, sponsor mentions, and product placements. The NFL even makes its tedious "replay reviews" a chance for commercial sponsorship. I watch very few games live any more, not when I can view a game on my DVR in about 30 minutes. The NFL is just getting too expensive. The game has to reduce costs, and one big cost, the major one actually, is player salaries. Don't think the owners (or the players) are just greedy. The owners are in a very competitive market, probably the most competitive market in contemporary America: the market for your leisure time. Any costs savings the owners can wring from the players will find its way into your pocket, making NFL games more accessible in person and more enjoyable at home.
The bolded would have me withdrawing from this guys class by the end of the day.
There is some evidence to support the notion. The NFL just had more tv blackouts due to lack of sellouts than in more than a decade. Even as tv deals are increasing, ticket prices for upper deck seats have gone down in a great many stadiums. NFL teams depend on sellouts for their economic modeling to succeed. You can't build your individual team's brand if your team isn't on tv to the city in which you're based. Sure the better seats and luxury suites, etc., are going to cost an arm and a leg, and commercial breaks are going to be ubiquitous. But he's making the argument that lowering player salaries, and thus a team's costs, will lower the price of nosebleed seats so he can better take his family to a game. There's a point there. The argument is more narrow than he started with, and so his article is a bit misleading. It took me a bit to figure out just what point he was making.
 
None of the 6 numbered points he makes are remotely compelling. A few seem to be clearly wrong and the rest strike me as mostly vague, unsupported rambling.

 
As a fan of a team in the Super Bowl, with a strong young nucleus...NO WAY would I want a lockout to waste a year of the prime years of some of the core of my favorite team.

 
Well get ready for it. I have been trying to tell everyone since DeMaurice Smith became the head of the NFLPA that is where it is headed. And his wonderful statement right before Sunday's games tells you all you need to know about this labor attorney. "We are at war with the NFL owners" is not the statement made by someone with any interest in moving forward. Look into his background and the information our there in the last year since this lockout became likely. He wants to be right next Donald Fehr on the Mt Rushmore of labor leaders and this lockout is what he sees as his ticket. I strongly believe it will take a revolt by the players to get an agreement, because unless DeMaurice can bring all the "fat cat" owners to their knees he will not be seen any better than the previous "weak kneed" NFLPA leaders.

 
I think there would be a small, potentially negligible benefit to the fans if the owners lockout the players and successfully negotiate a lower salary structure. In this day and age, the continuing escalation of ticket prices cannot be afforded by many fans. I think a lockout would probably stop/slow the increases in costs to the fan, but probably would be unlikely to actually lower it.

 
Well get ready for it. I have been trying to tell everyone since DeMaurice Smith became the head of the NFLPA that is where it is headed. And his wonderful statement right before Sunday's games tells you all you need to know about this labor attorney. "We are at war with the NFL owners" is not the statement made by someone with any interest in moving forward. Look into his background and the information our there in the last year since this lockout became likely. He wants to be right next Donald Fehr on the Mt Rushmore of labor leaders and this lockout is what he sees as his ticket. I strongly believe it will take a revolt by the players to get an agreement, because unless DeMaurice can bring all the "fat cat" owners to their knees he will not be seen any better than the previous "weak kneed" NFLPA leaders.
I've been following the situation very closely, and I disagree with much of what you said. So far in negotiations we've seen:* Owners want more money removed from the revenue equation before calculating the players' share.* Owners want the players to take a smaller share.* Owners want to go to 18 regular season games.* Owners want a hard rookie salary cap.* Players want to keep the same deal they've got now.* Players have offered counter-proposals that incorporate 18 regular season games, a hard rookie cap, and more money diverted to retired player benefits.I haven't heard of any counter-offers from the owners. The owners' lead negotiator did mention this week for the first time the possibility of declaring an impasse in negotiations, which would allow them to unilaterally impose the last offer they made. (This would force the players either to strike or to decertify the union and sue under antitrust laws)You may be right about DeMaurice Smith's motivation. But I don't think he's got much choice in the matter. He represents a group of workers who are being asked to take a steep paycut, not because the owners are losing money, but because they aren't making enough money. (a few owners of small market teams are losing money and the big market teams don't want to share their largesse.) Of course the players are going to be outraged. And he's got to be the mouthpiece for that outrage. That's his primary job.I also don't think you can declare Gene Upshaw to be a "weak kneed NFLPA leader." He didn't have much success keeping the players together for the strikes, but he was far more successful negotiating CBA's after the antitrust lawsuits.
 
Might as well cancel Christmas too, think of all the money that would find a way back into our pockets.
:lmao: If you own a car lot, and there's a car lot across the street, and you can lower your costs/overhead etc., then you might lower prices. it makes sense in a competitive marketplace. If you have the only car lot in the world, and everyone in town wants a car, why are you going to lower prices again?
 
Might as well cancel Christmas too, think of all the money that would find a way back into our pockets.
:mellow: If you own a car lot, and there's a car lot across the street, and you can lower your costs/overhead etc., then you might lower prices. it makes sense in a competitive marketplace. If you have the only car lot in the world, and everyone in town wants a car, why are you going to lower prices again?
The NFL is in competition ... with tv shows, movies, other sports leagues, and all other entertainment options out there. The NFL is also beating the crap out of its competition.
 
I know I'm likely in the minority, but I have no problem with the owners' perspectives. I don't want a lockout and I don't even think its a great idea to have 18 games (love football but worry about the player's health). But STILL..I can't fault the owners. It's there money they put into this investment. they are no different than any shareholder in any company that is for profit: they want maximized returns on the investment and the players choose to play and know at an early age the tradeoff for possible wealth and fame is traded in by the physical punishment and the hard work.

If I mortgaged my house and my family's long-term security and I made money off it, I feel justified to try to make as much as I can. Simply, players are rich because owners are wealthy. The owners took the risk a long time ago to make their money. If they don't like it, they can do something else. The players are now taking their risks to make their money. If they don't like it, they can go do something else (maybe put that scholarshipped degree to good use).

they have a choice, but they need to recognize they DON'T have the leverage. So, if both sides want to not damage the product and both lose money, they should agree and play ball.

 
I know I'm likely in the minority, but I have no problem with the owners' perspectives. I don't want a lockout and I don't even think its a great idea to have 18 games (love football but worry about the player's health). But STILL..I can't fault the owners. It's there money they put into this investment. they are no different than any shareholder in any company that is for profit: they want maximized returns on the investment and the players choose to play and know at an early age the tradeoff for possible wealth and fame is traded in by the physical punishment and the hard work. If I mortgaged my house and my family's long-term security and I made money off it, I feel justified to try to make as much as I can. Simply, players are rich because owners are wealthy. The owners took the risk a long time ago to make their money. If they don't like it, they can do something else. The players are now taking their risks to make their money. If they don't like it, they can go do something else (maybe put that scholarshipped degree to good use). they have a choice, but they need to recognize they DON'T have the leverage. So, if both sides want to not damage the product and both lose money, they should agree and play ball.
At some point, tho, right and wrong enters into it. I agree the owners should be allowed to make money. And make MORE money. What if they went to a 24 or 26 game season, and chewed up and spit out players every two or three years? There's plenty more coming in from college every year. They'd make more money, and wouldn't have to give running backs big contracts, because none of them would make it to year 5 anyway.I'm being a little silly of course, but your reasoning could be extrapolated that far.The thinking that owners, because they own, can pretty much do whatever they want to increase profit is the biggest reason unions were formed inn the first place.
 
Why NFL Lockout Makes Sense

From the article:

5. And you, Joe Fan, you want a labor fight too. The NFL is a great product, but it's just so expensive to be a fan. It's crazily spendy to see games in person: the costs of tickets, parking, seat licenses, concessions, and the like keeps schoolteachers like me at home. But it's even pricey to watch at home, in a sense, as we free viewers "pay" with our impatient attention to games that feature increasing commercial interruptions, sponsor mentions, and product placements. The NFL even makes its tedious "replay reviews" a chance for commercial sponsorship. I watch very few games live any more, not when I can view a game on my DVR in about 30 minutes. The NFL is just getting too expensive. The game has to reduce costs, and one big cost, the major one actually, is player salaries. Don't think the owners (or the players) are just greedy. The owners are in a very competitive market, probably the most competitive market in contemporary America: the market for your leisure time. Any costs savings the owners can wring from the players will find its way into your pocket, making NFL games more accessible in person and more enjoyable at home.
He was immediately challenged in comments, arguing that owners will try to maximize their profits, and any cost savings wrung from players will have absolutely no relation to what we as fans pay for NFL entertainment. He defended his argument thusly:
I suspect for today's pro football team the extremely high costs of producing games means that their average cost and the demand schedule, representing what fans will pay to see a game, never intersect. In other words, the only way for the owners to stay afloat is to price discriminate by aggressively segmenting the market (which they do with luxury boxes, lower-bowl seats, seats that hang from the lights, etc.). The "poor person's" price will be set where the demand curve is closest to the average cost curve. If by reducing player salaries the average cost of production is lowered, then the starting point ticket prices will be lowered too as the average cost is shifted downward. Revenues will remain the same, but prices will fall. The initial post never said lower player costs will lower revenues.
It's an interesting argument, that the bulk of a team's profit comes from luxury boxes, club seats, and the seats closest to the action for which people pay a premium. And that any revenues generated by upper deck seats and television revenue is eaten up by player salaries. Thus by lowering player salaries, the pricing of "cheap seats" and tv deals will be correspondingly lowered.I don't buy it, though. Not with the NFL setting television ratings records, even with the ubiquitous commercial breaks.
If he would have stated his 5th point earlier I would have saved myself a few minutes. To think any fan will see a day where owners will charge less for fans to attend their games is insane. For most teams, the only way you can get in the stadium is having season tickets, and if you don't realize right off the bat that a PSL license is a shakedown, then I don't know what to tell you.
 
Well get ready for it. I have been trying to tell everyone since DeMaurice Smith became the head of the NFLPA that is where it is headed. And his wonderful statement right before Sunday's games tells you all you need to know about this labor attorney. "We are at war with the NFL owners" is not the statement made by someone with any interest in moving forward. Look into his background and the information our there in the last year since this lockout became likely. He wants to be right next Donald Fehr on the Mt Rushmore of labor leaders and this lockout is what he sees as his ticket. I strongly believe it will take a revolt by the players to get an agreement, because unless DeMaurice can bring all the "fat cat" owners to their knees he will not be seen any better than the previous "weak kneed" NFLPA leaders.
I've been following the situation very closely, and I disagree with much of what you said. So far in negotiations we've seen:* Owners want more money removed from the revenue equation before calculating the players' share.* Owners want the players to take a smaller share.* Owners want to go to 18 regular season games.* Owners want a hard rookie salary cap.* Players want to keep the same deal they've got now.* Players have offered counter-proposals that incorporate 18 regular season games, a hard rookie cap, and more money diverted to retired player benefits.I haven't heard of any counter-offers from the owners. The owners' lead negotiator did mention this week for the first time the possibility of declaring an impasse in negotiations, which would allow them to unilaterally impose the last offer they made. (This would force the players either to strike or to decertify the union and sue under antitrust laws)You may be right about DeMaurice Smith's motivation. But I don't think he's got much choice in the matter. He represents a group of workers who are being asked to take a steep paycut, not because the owners are losing money, but because they aren't making enough money. (a few owners of small market teams are losing money and the big market teams don't want to share their largesse.) Of course the players are going to be outraged. And he's got to be the mouthpiece for that outrage. That's his primary job.I also don't think you can declare Gene Upshaw to be a "weak kneed NFLPA leader." He didn't have much success keeping the players together for the strikes, but he was far more successful negotiating CBA's after the antitrust lawsuits.
I agree. My understanding is that Upshaw negotiated a hugely successful deal for the players, at a time when the owners were mostly bickering among themselves over revenue sharing. The owners have now opted out of that deal, at the very first opportunity, and want to roll it back. They are the ones who want to scrap the current system, and want their demands respected even while refusing to provide financial transparency. In my experience in commercial disputes, whenever one party pleads poverty as part of a negotiation ploy, they fully understood that carries no water if they aren't willing to open the books.Whatever one's opinion of DeMaurice Smith might be, I would say the players certainly did not elect him to give back what they fought for and obtained in the last CBA.
 
I don't care how expensive it is. I watch it on TV, mostly for free (though I pay to watch my Steelers during the regular season, and I don't mind that either.) It's tremendously entertaining. I don't want to have nothing to watch next September on Sundays. I will be very pissed if that happens.

 
I don't care how expensive it is. I watch it on TV, mostly for free (though I pay to watch my Steelers during the regular season, and I don't mind that either.) It's tremendously entertaining. I don't want to have nothing to watch next September on Sundays. I will be very pissed if that happens.
What if the next TV deal includes increased commercial time, more "live marketing", longer half-time and the like? What if a significant increase in the TV contract is necessary to fund the deals made in the current CBA negotiations? At some point, I think the entertainment value suffers. I started watching the NFL on delay 3 years ago, and these days can hardly stand watching games live. Even as a Packer fan watching the NFC championship game on Sunday, I was not watching live until late in the 4th qtr. The commercial breaks and other marketing have become a significant negative for me and at some point will drive me toward other forms of entertainment.
 
Shutout said:
I know I'm likely in the minority, but I have no problem with the owners' perspectives. I don't want a lockout and I don't even think its a great idea to have 18 games (love football but worry about the player's health). But STILL..I can't fault the owners. It's there money they put into this investment. they are no different than any shareholder in any company that is for profit: they want maximized returns on the investment and the players choose to play and know at an early age the tradeoff for possible wealth and fame is traded in by the physical punishment and the hard work.

If I mortgaged my house and my family's long-term security and I made money off it, I feel justified to try to make as much as I can. Simply, players are rich because owners are wealthy. The owners took the risk a long time ago to make their money. If they don't like it, they can do something else. The players are now taking their risks to make their money. If they don't like it, they can go do something else (maybe put that scholarshipped degree to good use).

they have a choice, but they need to recognize they DON'T have the leverage. So, if both sides want to not damage the product and both lose money, they should agree and play ball.
Never once have I ever paid money to watch an owner take financial risks. The players are every bit as important to the NFL as the owners are.
 
The owners emerging triumphant in a lockout helps the fans? I thought all it did was give the owners a bigger piece of the pie at the expense of the players? You really believe the owners will just pass the money down to the customers? What incentive is there to do that?

 
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Shutout said:
I know I'm likely in the minority, but I have no problem with the owners' perspectives. I don't want a lockout and I don't even think its a great idea to have 18 games (love football but worry about the player's health). But STILL..I can't fault the owners. It's there money they put into this investment. they are no different than any shareholder in any company that is for profit: they want maximized returns on the investment and the players choose to play and know at an early age the tradeoff for possible wealth and fame is traded in by the physical punishment and the hard work.

If I mortgaged my house and my family's long-term security and I made money off it, I feel justified to try to make as much as I can. Simply, players are rich because owners are wealthy. The owners took the risk a long time ago to make their money. If they don't like it, they can do something else. The players are now taking their risks to make their money. If they don't like it, they can go do something else (maybe put that scholarshipped degree to good use).

they have a choice, but they need to recognize they DON'T have the leverage. So, if both sides want to not damage the product and both lose money, they should agree and play ball.
Never once have I ever paid money to watch an owner take financial risks. The players are every bit as important to the NFL as the owners are.
Wellington Mara took no risks. He inherited the business from his father Tim Mara when he died in 1959. Tim Mara took risks, but he not only owned the Giants but the Yankees football team and the Detroit Wolverines. Tim Mara was also a bookmaker so he understood risk.
 
It's kinda too bad this so called professor opinion has no basis in reality. I really find it hard to believe that the billionaire owner are all that concerned with the plight of the poorer football fans.

 
CletiusMaximus said:
I don't care how expensive it is. I watch it on TV, mostly for free (though I pay to watch my Steelers during the regular season, and I don't mind that either.) It's tremendously entertaining. I don't want to have nothing to watch next September on Sundays. I will be very pissed if that happens.
What if the next TV deal includes increased commercial time, more "live marketing", longer half-time and the like? What if a significant increase in the TV contract is necessary to fund the deals made in the current CBA negotiations? At some point, I think the entertainment value suffers. I started watching the NFL on delay 3 years ago, and these days can hardly stand watching games live. Even as a Packer fan watching the NFC championship game on Sunday, I was not watching live until late in the 4th qtr. The commercial breaks and other marketing have become a significant negative for me and at some point will drive me toward other forms of entertainment.
NFL Redzone!!
 
I think the owners understand that they are getting dangerously close to pricing fans out of the stadium, and while the NFL games on tv are excellent entertainment, a lot of that atmosphere and excitments comes from the fans in the stand. Start watching games played in half-full stadiums and you'll immediately notice a difference. I paid $35 for Ravens season tickets in 1998. Four tickets for 10 games cost me $1,400. Not a small amount, but not to big a bite out of my budget. Flash forward 12 years and those same tickets are $90 for a total of $3,600. While my income has gone up, it's not kept anywhere near the pace of ticket increases. How much will my tickets be in 10 more years? Let's say they're $150, that'll be $6,000 per year and will end my ticket buying. The prospect of less than capacity stadiums is something the owners have to be aware of.

 
"Good job guys, we locked the players out and now we are REALLY loaded!"

"What should we do with it?"

"Hey, lets give it back to the fans! Let's lower prices on tickets, on merchandise and make Direct Ticket free for everyone!"

Yeah right.

 
I agree. My understanding is that Upshaw negotiated a hugely successful deal for the players, at a time when the owners were mostly bickering among themselves over revenue sharing. The owners have now opted out of that deal, at the very first opportunity, and want to roll it back. They are the ones who want to scrap the current system, and want their demands respected even while refusing to provide financial transparency. In my experience in commercial disputes, whenever one party pleads poverty as part of a negotiation ploy, they fully understood that carries no water if they aren't willing to open the books.

Whatever one's opinion of DeMaurice Smith might be, I would say the players certainly did not elect him to give back what they fought for and obtained in the last CBA.
Yeah, I have not been following this very closely, but it was my understanding that most of the owners view the previous CBA as totally screwing them. Basically, through their own bickering, a lot of stipulations (that they now want reduced or trashed) were 'snuck in'. In other words, Upshaw pulled the wool over their eyes and they feel like they've been holding the crap end of the stick. My biggest issue is the bolded. I don't know how you can come to a financial negotiation, state that your finances are hurting, then not allow anyone access to your finances.

ETA the following:

I think the owners understand that they are getting dangerously close to pricing fans out of the stadium,...The prospect of less than capacity stadiums is something the owners have to be aware of.
This may be true in some cities where they have blackout issues already, but here in Philly, I am approximately #67,000 on the waiting list to be allowed the ability of shelling out $100 per seat per game for season tickets. These owners have no worries about pricing the fan base out and they certainly won't take any regressive pricing measure to maintain or improve the situation.
 
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CletiusMaximus said:
I don't care how expensive it is. I watch it on TV, mostly for free (though I pay to watch my Steelers during the regular season, and I don't mind that either.) It's tremendously entertaining. I don't want to have nothing to watch next September on Sundays. I will be very pissed if that happens.
What if the next TV deal includes increased commercial time, more "live marketing", longer half-time and the like? What if a significant increase in the TV contract is necessary to fund the deals made in the current CBA negotiations? At some point, I think the entertainment value suffers. I started watching the NFL on delay 3 years ago, and these days can hardly stand watching games live. Even as a Packer fan watching the NFC championship game on Sunday, I was not watching live until late in the 4th qtr. The commercial breaks and other marketing have become a significant negative for me and at some point will drive me toward other forms of entertainment.
NFL Redzone!!
This is the credited response. I will gladly pay $149 for a season's worth of No-commercials. It's just absurd when team A scores, commercial, Team A kicks off, commercial, and then Team B starts their own drive. However, NFL RedZone is not available to a large portion of the market, namely Time Warner subscribers. In many places, Time Warner is the only available cable company.Not only is the quantity of commercials infuriating, but it's the same damn commercials again and again! Beer and trucks, beer and trucks. How many freaking Coors Light and Ford F-150 commercials can you take??
 
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I agree with the responses that a good labor deal by the NFL will have ZERO impact on "increasing commercial interruptions, sponsor mentions, and product placements." The expectation that it could completely wipes out this guy's credibility. It was already pretty questionable when he complains he can't afford "tickets, parking, seat licenses" on a teacher's salary, as if any of that would ever change as long as there are 60,000 people who can afford it. What color is the sky in this guy's world?

 
It's just absurd when team A scores, commercial, Team A kicks off, commercial, and then Team B starts their own drive.
I don't have many pet peeves BUT the above scenario really pisses me off when I'm watching a football game.
It can be a blessing for those in attendance. If I act quickly, when a touchdown is scored, there's a good bet that I can get in and out of the men's room, grab a beer and be back in my seat before the next play from scrimmage. Its kind of a drag though for all those other folks that don't need to piss and have a full beer in hand. At home, it annoyed me tremendously until I got a dvr.
 
Jerry Jones is able to bend people over and fill out his massive stadium. Here in Chicago, I can easily get 2-3 times face value for the tickets for any game. Any individual tickets that go on sale outside of preseason are gone in minutes. The Packers have like a 30 year waitlist. If anything, people are fortunate that the NFL has chosen to keep ticket prices reasonable in comparison to what people are willing to pay for their entertainment.

 
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James Daulton said:
I think the owners understand that they are getting dangerously close to pricing fans out of the stadium, and while the NFL games on tv are excellent entertainment, a lot of that atmosphere and excitments comes from the fans in the stand. Start watching games played in half-full stadiums and you'll immediately notice a difference. I paid $35 for Ravens season tickets in 1998. Four tickets for 10 games cost me $1,400. Not a small amount, but not to big a bite out of my budget. Flash forward 12 years and those same tickets are $90 for a total of $3,600. While my income has gone up, it's not kept anywhere near the pace of ticket increases. How much will my tickets be in 10 more years? Let's say they're $150, that'll be $6,000 per year and will end my ticket buying. The prospect of less than capacity stadiums is something the owners have to be aware of.
Sounds like a problem with how the team is run. Here in Chicago I want to say it was $40 for my first season tickets back in 99. Up to $68 for one set and $76 for another, not a terrible increase. And that includes the fact that a new stadium was built in this time period.
 
massraider said:
Leroy Hoard said:
Might as well cancel Christmas too, think of all the money that would find a way back into our pockets.
:tumbleweed: If you own a car lot, and there's a car lot across the street, and you can lower your costs/overhead etc., then you might lower prices. it makes sense in a competitive marketplace. If you have the only car lot in the world, and everyone in town wants a car, why are you going to lower prices again?
B/c some people might start taking the bus. And if the town gets frustrated enough, maybe they'll even pass a measure to build an advanced rail system. In my personal case the bus = MMA and the rail system = more time doing other "stuff."The NFL has a monopoly over football, but so did MLB over baseball. And yet a lot of people stopped buying the cars off the MLB lot after the last strike. A labor dispute pitting millionaires against billionaires isn't going to go over well during the most severe recession of the last 75 years.
 
I don't buy it that it would benefit the fans if the owners were able to pocket more money. One benefit that I see though is that I'm not spending money on tickets, booze, etc. at the games! So it would be a "stimulus" for me if there was no football next year. And heck, I might get some things done around the house on Sundays like cleaning, laundry, etc. So why not a lockout? I'll be more productive...

Annnnnnnnnnnd then I woke up from my nightmare....

 
BigJim® said:
I agree with the responses that a good labor deal by the NFL will have ZERO impact on "increasing commercial interruptions, sponsor mentions, and product placements." The expectation that it could completely wipes out this guy's credibility. It was already pretty questionable when he complains he can't afford "tickets, parking, seat licenses" on a teacher's salary, as if any of that would ever change as long as there are 60,000 people who can afford it. What color is the sky in this guy's world?
This is an interesting comment, but I don't think one that is consistent with the facts.The question I would ask is why do we have increased "commercial interruptions, sponsor mentions, and product placements" in the first place? If these are inherently good or necessary, why weren't these around in 1970 (even if the amount of money they would raise is much smaller)? Owners wouldn't leave free money on the table, and these means of raising money were used elsewhere already. Clearly the cost of doing so outweighed the benefits.

So these things bring costs (i.e., aren't inherently good for the overall product of the sport), didn't see them before, but we see them in huge quantities today. Why?

Ignoring for the moment cost considerations [raised by the lawyer], one reason, if obvious, may be that the product on the field is simply higher than it was in 1970 (or whatever period we're comparing). Maybe our tastes have changed. Maybe other "competitors" have fallen away [baseball, as an example] and the market size has increased. In any case, one can think of our "demand" for football is higher now and that we are willing to pay a higher price (in the form of these inconveniences) for the privilege of watching.

[Note: sponsors may find that the NFL is now a good avenue to advertise to reach a large audience. But, given that the price they pay for advertising is commensurate with the audience, a trend towards more sponsoring and the higher demand for football, are one and the same.]

But this still doesn't answer the question. After all, it seems the more efficient way of capturing this higher demand is simply raising the price of tickets [i.e., involve less hassle than with contract negotiation, costs of changing sponsors, training staff to implement these changes, etc that are associated with sponsoring].

While ticket prices have gone up, why don't they just go up a little higher? Owners have resorted to this form of revenue generation for some reason. If not higher costs, what? Maybe with the growing demand/fanbase there is simply a greater share of fans who now prefer (for whatever reason) to watch from home, and now its more feasible (due to the higher demand) to tap into this revenue stream. Well that's market segmentation -- just as the lawyer describes.

Maybe at some point, if prices are high enough, some people just don't go to the game anymore [and partly empty stadiums suggests this is happening in some locations]. In this case, instead of them paying at the gate, the owners can now get them to pay at home (even if its a lot less) in terms of time through these inconveniences. But this implies that people have different preferences for the sport, and that they are willing to pay different prices. Again, this is consistent with the market being segmented.

So the market is segmented. Big deal. What does a new labor deal mean for fans? Would there be an impact?

Clearly, if games are lost as a result, then fans lose out to some degree. In the long-run however, a few missed games may be a small upfront cost for any long term benefits that might accrue.

What could be the benefits?

Well, the prices at the gate (or in one's home) may fall in the short run (or long-run) for a couple reasons:

- If there is a drawn out battle, and overall interest for the NFL dwindles (i.e. demand falls), the remaining football fans may see lower prices [for the precise, but opposite reasons we discussed above] both at the gate, and at home. So a labor deal might actually reduce these "inconveniences." But what if it's resolved quickly and demand remains unchanged?

- Lower labor costs. Price is determined not entirely by demand [unless one approaches the matter from an Austrian perspective, but I digress]. It does not matter if demand is large if there is no way to feasibly provide the good or service. But costs don't drive price entirely. If production costs were negligible there could still be high demand, and thus a high price (just think of toner cartridges, razors, etc). So neither cost nor demand work on their own in determining prices - its these factors together. It stands to reason that a lower cost structure, would reduce prices, all else equal. The real question is - by how much? Part of this is tied to market structure -- the less competitive the industry, the less the price would fall. Even if one were a monopolist, though, the price would still fall by some. This idea that a monopolist will "pocket the difference" doesn't recognize that more money can actually be made by lowering prices when costs fall. A monopolist just can't charge anything he wants - with lower costs, he benefits on the margin for more consumers using his product [whether it be more watchers on TV, or at the gate, in the case of teams struggling with blackouts].

There may be other benefits for fans too- perhaps most value an 18-game season more than a 16-game season. Maybe lower rookie salaries will prevent teams from clinging to bad draft choices [and thus improve team outcomes].

In any case, the NFL is a very complicated market structure. It is at once a very competitive market, as well as an oligopolistic one. How sponsoring and various other contracts affect different teams, the degree of central authority vs. franchise autonomy, etc... there are a lot of factors at work. I won't say I'm an expert on modeling it.

But as an economist I hope to a least add a certain perspective, focusing on broad trends, which both supports and contrasts with this lawyer's positions.

 
Why NFL Lockout Makes Sense

From the article:

5. And you, Joe Fan, you want a labor fight too. The NFL is a great product, but it's just so expensive to be a fan. It's crazily spendy to see games in person: the costs of tickets, parking, seat licenses, concessions, and the like keeps schoolteachers like me at home. But it's even pricey to watch at home, in a sense, as we free viewers "pay" with our impatient attention to games that feature increasing commercial interruptions, sponsor mentions, and product placements. The NFL even makes its tedious "replay reviews" a chance for commercial sponsorship. I watch very few games live any more, not when I can view a game on my DVR in about 30 minutes. The NFL is just getting too expensive. The game has to reduce costs, and one big cost, the major one actually, is player salaries. Don't think the owners (or the players) are just greedy. The owners are in a very competitive market, probably the most competitive market in contemporary America: the market for your leisure time. Any costs savings the owners can wring from the players will find its way into your pocket, making NFL games more accessible in person and more enjoyable at home.
The bolded would have me withdrawing from this guys class by the end of the day.
Comments from his students
He's a bully. I think a lot of students respond well to him because he is sort of funny, but he is a genuine schoolyard bully in the way he runs his classes. I wouldn't take another class from him again. I have had professors that challenge you, he doesn't challenge people, he demeans them.
 
If player salaries are reduced, the author already has a plan for players to make back the money.

The Beauty of Bets: Wagers as Compensation for Professional Athletes

Jeffrey Standen

Willamette University - College of Law

April 7, 2006

Willamette Law Review, Forthcoming

Abstract:

Professional and amateur leagues prohibit athletic participants from wagering on the outcome of the games in which they play. Most also prohibit wagers on any aspect of the sport; some even prohibit wagers on any sporting contest. At the same time, these leagues typically allow teams to compensate players based on individual performance outcomes and team victories and championships. Certain non-league tournament sports, particularly professional golf, even allow players to bet on pre-tournament practice contests.

This paper outlines the advantages of allowing athletes to bet on their games. Betting aligns player incentives with team incentives, encourages team-oriented play, helps sustain fan interest, lessens the nominal costs of owning teams or ticket purchases, and reduces the likelihood that players will conspire to throw games or beat the point spread. In light of this advantages of betting, the widespread prohibition on participant gambling seems problematic.
 
The Nfl owners will always charge the most they think fans will pay. Since the NFL has no competition, the fans interest in the NFL will determine if prices go up or down.

 
If player salaries are reduced, the author already has a plan for players to make back the money.

The Beauty of Bets: Wagers as Compensation for Professional Athletes

Jeffrey Standen

Willamette University - College of Law

April 7, 2006

Willamette Law Review, Forthcoming

Abstract:

Professional and amateur leagues prohibit athletic participants from wagering on the outcome of the games in which they play. Most also prohibit wagers on any aspect of the sport; some even prohibit wagers on any sporting contest. At the same time, these leagues typically allow teams to compensate players based on individual performance outcomes and team victories and championships. Certain non-league tournament sports, particularly professional golf, even allow players to bet on pre-tournament practice contests.

This paper outlines the advantages of allowing athletes to bet on their games. Betting aligns player incentives with team incentives, encourages team-oriented play, helps sustain fan interest, lessens the nominal costs of owning teams or ticket purchases, and reduces the likelihood that players will conspire to throw games or beat the point spread. In light of this advantages of betting, the widespread prohibition on participant gambling seems problematic.
What he should mention, but failed to, is this only works if players are restricted to betting that their team will win.
 

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