Guy. Your team was 35-13 the last three years. J
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Why I don't feel sorry for San Diego or their fans. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter yesitsme
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
Yeah vitriol, seriously. Not necessarily from the OP, but from other posters. It's like they get off on bashing A.J., the Chargers and Charger fans - to the extent they don't even bother to base their comments on the facts.We disagree on o.k. That was a division loss at home, a miserable performance nearly all the way around. This team has gotten worse every week. I don't see it magically turning around here. Unless they run the ball about 55 times next week, I don't see any way the Chargers aren't 1-4 after next week. You think Norv is capable of rallying the troops? Ask the Skins and Raider fans about that. You think if the players could they wouldn't have done so by now?There's no question the team would be much, much better off if they had the same staff from last year. That's what both Spanos and A.J. actually wanted. Once the ACs started getting stripped away the Chargers were in big trouble, culminating in the cluster #### we see before us today.
Yes. What would have been the odds here of this team starting off like this if Management / Ownership had been able to hold together the exact same staff as 2006?J
jonessed
Footballguy
Not good, but Cameron and Wade were gone no matter what. Cameron could have probably been replaced without too many hiccups, but I'm not as sure about Wade.A lot of people want to blame AJ, but I think a much of this is on Spanos. The AJ/Schotty thing should have been handled before it got to where it did. Egomaniacs can succeed in the NFL as long as they are given boundaries. From what I can tell Spanos let AJ dictate way too much.
I'm sorry Groovus. I just don't see anything remotely like "vitriol".I think lots of people felt like Schottenheimer got a raw deal. And they don't mind at all to see one of the most dominant teams in the league over the last three years struggling after he's gone.
J
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
Thanks "guy." Who cares? Is that some sort of justification for people coming out of the woodwork to give the Chargers and their fans a hard time? My team is 1-4 over it's last 5 games too. I'm sure I could go back into the record books and find lots of teams that had nice stretches of wins over the a few regular seasons. The fact I'd have to go back and look for them indicates to me that people don't tend to remember things like that. They're really not that important. People remember Championships. Those are important. Those are memorable. Those are things to hang your hat on. Everything else is pretty much trivia.
I probably kick the FG there too. Two questions though.I know it was into the wind. How hard was the wind blowing?And how short was Kaeding on the 54 yarder he tried at the end of the game?JGreat post, except it was 4th and 11 when Marty went for it in the first half of the NE game, instead of opting for the 47 yd FG attempt by his Pro Bowl kicker. 4th and 11. In the first half.
I'd disagree. Dominating teams week in and week out like your team has done for the past three seasons is pretty memorable. True, championships are great. But your team has won more regular season games than just about anyone over the last three years. I think that's maybe what you're not getting. There is a gigantic value on that. And the perception is that Schottenheimer wasn't rewarded for that. Again, that's just me observing.J
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
The kick was definitely into the wind, although a slight one. Wind is rarely a factor in San Diego.Kaeding was 7-9 in FGs between 40-49 yrds last season. He was perfect (15 for 15) at home.I probably kick the FG there too. Two questions though.I know it was into the wind. How hard was the wind blowing?And how short was Kaeding on the 54 yarder he tried at the end of the game?JGreat post, except it was 4th and 11 when Marty went for it in the first half of the NE game, instead of opting for the 47 yd FG attempt by his Pro Bowl kicker. 4th and 11. In the first half.:X
I'd like to see the breakdown of what those 40-49 kicks were. 42 yarders are a big difference from 49s. How short was the 54 yarder at the end?JThe kick was definitely into the wind, although a slight one. Wind is rarely a factor in San Diego.Kaeding was 7-9 in FGs between 40-49 yrds last season. He was perfect (15 for 15) at home.I probably kick the FG there too. Two questions though.I know it was into the wind. How hard was the wind blowing?And how short was Kaeding on the 54 yarder he tried at the end of the game?JGreat post, except it was 4th and 11 when Marty went for it in the first half of the NE game, instead of opting for the 47 yd FG attempt by his Pro Bowl kicker. 4th and 11. In the first half.
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
Dominating?Look at how close many of their wins were last year.Give me the W-L for them against playoff teams over that span.I think you'll be surprised.They've thumped some gawd awful teams to be sure. They've had some good seasons, but they haven't been dominating by any stretch of the imagination. Especially considering that they can't win in the playoffs.Should Marty have been rewarded for that to an extent greater than his already existing contract? Debatable. Everyone paints A.J. as the bad guy. I can understand some of the points in that line of thinking. But he wasn't alone in Marty getting fired. Marty had plenty to do with that as well. Now that things are falling apart, nobody seems to want to acknowledge that and is simply having fun bashing away.Seems pretty petty to me, especially for people who don't really have a vested interest.
12-4 in 20049-7 in 200514-2 in 2006Yes, I'd call that dominating week in and week out. Would you not?J
Delusions Of Adequacy
Footballguy
Last Raider super bowl win was 1983. Not much consolation for years of suckitude.
pats3in4
Footballguy
I didn't read all of the responses, so maybe someone already said what I've written below:
Marty should have been fired the Monday after the Pats loss (or shortly thereafter). Marty's reputation as a playoff failure stems mostly from his KC days (losses in Cleveland AFCCGs vs. Denver shouldn't be laid at Marty's feet) in which he infamously played MartyballTM, which is often mistaken as a too-conservative offensive gameplan. There is nothing wrong with an overly-conservative gameplan per se. What is wrong is sticking with it when it's not working...that's Martyball (now renamed HermballTM after KC's horrible game in Indy last year...what's with the awful KC playoff attacks anyway?). With the way the Chargers ran at will on the Pats in January, Martyball was the perfect offensive gameplan for that game, yet Marty abandoned the running game probably because he was afraid of being labeled too conservative. It's as if he was more concerned with showing the world he's not a stubborn force-the-running-game playoff coach rather than let the game conditions dictate his play calling. That's inexcusable and probably the lowlight of his playoff coaching career and that's saying a lot.
What San Diego effed up was not making this move immediately and hiring Cameron as HC. Instead, off went Cameron and off went Wade so San Diego was stuck hiring a failed retread like Norv. For this, I feel sorry for Chargers fans. The organization screwed up royally, for although Cameron was an unknown HC quantity and who knew how the team would do with him as HC, a lot of fans rightly had reservations of what Norv could do and those reservations are coming true to form.
I will say this, though, about Norv...I am shocked at how bad he's been. Here's a guy who knew when to hitch the offense to Emmitt Smith's back and ride it as far as he could take it, yet shows no inkling of doing this with LDT. Does his brain freeze up that much when switching from OC to HC? I expected some dropoff from Marty to Norv, but what we've seen is ridiculous.
Marty should have been fired the Monday after the Pats loss (or shortly thereafter). Marty's reputation as a playoff failure stems mostly from his KC days (losses in Cleveland AFCCGs vs. Denver shouldn't be laid at Marty's feet) in which he infamously played MartyballTM, which is often mistaken as a too-conservative offensive gameplan. There is nothing wrong with an overly-conservative gameplan per se. What is wrong is sticking with it when it's not working...that's Martyball (now renamed HermballTM after KC's horrible game in Indy last year...what's with the awful KC playoff attacks anyway?). With the way the Chargers ran at will on the Pats in January, Martyball was the perfect offensive gameplan for that game, yet Marty abandoned the running game probably because he was afraid of being labeled too conservative. It's as if he was more concerned with showing the world he's not a stubborn force-the-running-game playoff coach rather than let the game conditions dictate his play calling. That's inexcusable and probably the lowlight of his playoff coaching career and that's saying a lot.
What San Diego effed up was not making this move immediately and hiring Cameron as HC. Instead, off went Cameron and off went Wade so San Diego was stuck hiring a failed retread like Norv. For this, I feel sorry for Chargers fans. The organization screwed up royally, for although Cameron was an unknown HC quantity and who knew how the team would do with him as HC, a lot of fans rightly had reservations of what Norv could do and those reservations are coming true to form.
I will say this, though, about Norv...I am shocked at how bad he's been. Here's a guy who knew when to hitch the offense to Emmitt Smith's back and ride it as far as he could take it, yet shows no inkling of doing this with LDT. Does his brain freeze up that much when switching from OC to HC? I expected some dropoff from Marty to Norv, but what we've seen is ridiculous.
The Rubber Band
Footballguy
I'm willing to bet that the chargers finish the season with at least 10 wins. with only two teams potentially having 14+ wins in the AFC, the chargers stand a tremendous chance of making the wild card, if they don't win the division. consider all of the factors:
1. Denver stands the best chance of winning the division if SD doesn't.
2. SD plays denver twice, and winning those two or even just one gives them an edge in the division race
3. the rougher part of SD's schedule is over (NE, CHI, GB)
4. the other tough games are IND, DENx2, DET
5. if they can win the next 2 games, they can go into the bye week at .500, as well as potentially tied for 1st in the division which helps psych factors
LT is notorious for getting off to slow starts and blowing up mid and late season (likely due to his inactivity during preseason) and he is key to their success on offense.
I have faith that the Chargers should make the payoffs this year, with only Denver truly in the way of them winning the division and/or a wild card birth.
As far as superbowl contention, they can forget it... now and even in the near future. Rapports between players and staff typically take time, the exception being teams like Gruden's Bucs a few years back. By the time the players and Norv are on the same page, LT will be an over the hill 30 year old RB, and at least one of the team's other golden boys will be traded or otherwise gone. the talent and rapport combination is gone.
1. Denver stands the best chance of winning the division if SD doesn't.
2. SD plays denver twice, and winning those two or even just one gives them an edge in the division race
3. the rougher part of SD's schedule is over (NE, CHI, GB)
4. the other tough games are IND, DENx2, DET
5. if they can win the next 2 games, they can go into the bye week at .500, as well as potentially tied for 1st in the division which helps psych factors
LT is notorious for getting off to slow starts and blowing up mid and late season (likely due to his inactivity during preseason) and he is key to their success on offense.
I have faith that the Chargers should make the payoffs this year, with only Denver truly in the way of them winning the division and/or a wild card birth.
As far as superbowl contention, they can forget it... now and even in the near future. Rapports between players and staff typically take time, the exception being teams like Gruden's Bucs a few years back. By the time the players and Norv are on the same page, LT will be an over the hill 30 year old RB, and at least one of the team's other golden boys will be traded or otherwise gone. the talent and rapport combination is gone.
TommyGilmore
Footballguy
1963 down?
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Sorry I should have specified: NFL Championship. But thanks for bringing up that one from the USFL equivalent of 44 years ago.
Despyzer
Lousy Attention Whore
You are right. Discounting the two strike-shortened years, from 1981 to 2004 the Chargers mustered only three winning seasons. That's about as unaccomplished as any team in the league. It's the same number as the Cardinals had during that stretch if that helps to put it in perspective.
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BoltBacker
Footballguy
Does it also include SD retaining Donnie Edwards and Godfrey not aging? How about McCree playing at least average like he did last season instead of HORRRRRIBLE which is how he's played this season? Seriously, those ILB's and S's have been just terrible. Every third down it's pretty much a race for Merriman to put enough pressure on the QB to cause an incompletion or there's almost always a completion across the middle of the field. It's possible the former coaching staff was a better for McCree(after all they are who brought him in) but I don't think the former coaching staff could have made those ILB's look any better.If I were an AJ hater that's where I'd focus my venom. Poisoning the relationship with one of the best defenders on the team and failing to properly replace him. I was never sold on Cooper/Wilhelm/Dobbins/Siler/Waters but plenty of people closer to the situation seemed confident there wouldn't be too much of a drop-off. They were wrong. SD has one whole in their defense.... the entire freaking middle of the field!
Family Matters
Footballguy
You make some solid points but I have to say I think the real issue isn't the talent but rather the chemistry. They have the players to be the a top 5 D week in and week out. They have the offense to the same. In fact that's pretty much what they were last year when they went 14-2. The chemistry is not what it was. Body language, timing and enthusiasm seem out of synch whereas last year they were a confident group that made plays look too easy at times. These type of issues are coaching and leadership problems. But even if you could identify that personel problems were the issue you still follow link back to AJ. He made the decisions that put them in this situation. And for ones claiming AJ didn't fire MArty because Spanos did, understand that we are not naive as to how things work. Sure Spanos made the decision. Thanks to AJ he was forced to chose between them. AJ manipulated their relationship leaving Spanos in a bad situation and he had to choose. If you don't want to acknowledge that then you're just ignoring the obvious. Even the national media has been able to see it for what it is. And now that time has passed, there has been enough interviews and knowledge from inside sources to reach the media to confirm what appered to be happening while all this went down.Finally, AJ and Spanos have made decisions that leave them open for criticizm. They could of handled things much better. I really doubt Marty could have done anything to save himself because AJ wanted him out and made it impossible for Marty to coach. So defending them in these decisions comes across as misguided fan loyalty.
jabarony
Footballguy
Wow, 2 people named Guy here. What are the odds.As a Lions fan (or most any sane NFL fan for that matter), give me 14-2 with homefield advantage Every Year. Sure you'll lose some, especially if you play the Pats or Colts, but odds are you'll make the superbowl before a 8-8 team!Obviously no coach is untouchable if the GM/Owner have a beef with him, but my issue is with the subsequent hiring. It's not like Vince Lombardi returned in zombie form ready to take the league by storm. Norv Turner is your best option? You stand pat.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
But that's my point. Their weakness(especially for short passes over the middle..... short crossing patterns, quick slants, etc) are in large part because the defenders in the middle of the field are just horrible. Even Belichick couldn't coax these ILB's into covering a goal post let alone an animate object. When your entire defense is predicated on pressuring the opponents QB it kills you when you can't defend the short pass.
No. Just the same coaches. This is a pretty big hypothetical already. Let's not add bending time to it...
J
Despyzer
Lousy Attention Whore
This seems like a pretty pointless question. There is no way that coaching staff was going to remain intact this year, regardless of who the GM was. Cam and Phillips left for other HC jobs because they thought the SD job was off the market for at least one more year. The only way either of them would have stayed was if Marty had let his intentions to sabotage his own job be known before the other teams came calling.Edit: But just to play along... No, I do not think they would be 1-3 right now with last year's complete staff.
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It wasn't really an effort to keep him. (They were already keeping him for another year without the extension, and beyond that was anybody's guess.) But neither was it a slap in the face. It was better than firing him, and it was also better than not firing him while not offering him an extension.
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I think the chances of starting off exactly 1-3 would be something like:Marty, Cam, Wade: 6.4%Marty, Shelmon, Kurt: 6.6%Norv, Shelmon, Cottrell: 6.9%
Harry Beanbag
Sausage King of Chicago
The thread is rather barren after yesterday's total domination in Denver.
I am not 100% sold on Norv and Cottrell but after yesterday my finger is easing off the panic button a little bit compared to last week.
Iwannabeacowboybaby!
Footballguy
I still don't agree with how Marty was handled, I think he should have been given more room to do what he wanted to do and when he took that room, he was removed.
They just didn't want him or at least didn't care enough.
Nice win yesterday, they need a few more to convince me that they're back. I've seen a few of their games and it's hard for me to believe you can just turn it around like that over night.
Denver on the other hand is done. They have no shot at winning the SB.
They just didn't want him or at least didn't care enough.
Nice win yesterday, they need a few more to convince me that they're back. I've seen a few of their games and it's hard for me to believe you can just turn it around like that over night.
Denver on the other hand is done. They have no shot at winning the SB.
BeachBums
Footballguy
Wining the Super Bowl? With that defense I wonder if they have a shot at 8-8.
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Banger
Footballguy
that's an absolute given that they equal/exceed that and they will win the division.
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With that defense?It's a new defense. They have an elite DT, DE, LB. The secondary sucks, but that's not a new problem. They are LOADED with talent on that D. I expect the D to improve as the season goes on.And I wouldn't be suprised if the Chargers won 5-6 in a row and took over that division. It's very weak.
Riffraff
Footballguy
I assume BeachBums was talking about Denver. He cut the quote short, which was talking about the Broncos. "Denver on the other hand is done. They have no shot at winning the SB."
Banger
Footballguy
ahhhh. my bad.
BeachBums
Footballguy
Bailey is about all that's good about the Den D. Jackson's TD yesterday was on Bly (5'9" vs 6'5") but it wasn't a jump ball, Jackson was open. Both Den safeties are liabilities in coverage. The front seven can't get pressure (Dumervil seems decent, but he can't do it alone) or stop the run.
Iwannabeacowboybaby!
Footballguy
LOL, ya and I know I'm not going out on much of a limb there in saying that. It was more of me just throwing that in there because of so many saying that prior to this week SD was done or didn't have a chance when in reality, it's a team like Denver that really doesn't.We can't go back and rehire Marty so I guess we'll all just have to move on in regards to San Diego's coaching staff. I did feel good for Norv Turner yesterday, I know a win is a win but that kind of win on the road after the heat he's been taking all season long has to feel good.
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BoltBacker
Footballguy
I don't feel sorry for them either.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
That's what I was expecting as well.I think I speak for most 'Skins fans when I say that I'm not at all rooting against the Chargers with Norv. I've always been a casual fan of the team, dating back to the Fouts era when I thought that they had cool helmets.I hated that they lost to Cincy in the cold in 1982. I simply think that Norv had had way too many defenders around the league and that that has clouded most peoples' perceptions of his qualifications to be a head coach. It's frustrating to me that people still blame Snyder for Norv's failed coaching stint and firing in Washington, and more broadly how Norv seems to be made of Teflon when it comes to criticism. I've sort of resigned myself, though, to the fact that you just don't understand how bad Norv is as a head coach until he's the head coach of your team. My multiple posts in the Norv threads this year have all been directed towards the people expressing excitement/optimism at his hiring. The irony is that I was expecting this to still be a 10 or 11 win team this year.
