Why is Dermontti Dawson getting no love from the HOF? (1 Viewer)

[AhrnCityPahnder]

OK, Jim Wexell is admittedly a homer but this is pretty crazy how Dawson is not even getting on the ballot.

Anyone have any thoughts as to why?

Jim Wexell

SteelCityInsider.com Jan 18, 2008

The voters for the Pro Football Hall of Fame have released the names of 17 finalists for the vote on Feb. 2. One glaring omission is former Steelers center Dermontti Dawson, who changed the way his position is played -- and was properly honored for it during his playing days, but not now.

Here we go again, trying to make a case for the great Dermontti Dawson.

Obviously stats aren’t going to work, and we tried quotes last year. They wouldn’t do much good here, either.

So let’s try something new. Let’s compare Dawson with his contemporaries. After all, isn’t that what the Hall of Fame’s all about?

The easiest way to accomplish this is by using the Associated Press All-Pro teams. Fans repeatedly argue the case for Art Monk based on his gaudy statistics, but in 16 seasons in the league Monk made the AP All-Pro team one time. In 20 seasons, cornerback Darrell Green made it once.

Why the AP All-Pro team? Well, the Pro Bowl doesn’t quantify greatness the way the All-Pro teams do. First of all, the Pro Bowl’s a popularity contest. Furthermore, players can make the Pro Bowl, sit it out with an injury, and someone else will be named. That way, four or five, say, running backs from each conference could put “Pro Bowl” on his resume.

There’s no sitting out the All-Pro team from the AP, which – except for the years 1970-76 – releases a 22-man team (specialists have only been named recently).

In 1970-76, the Associated Press named separate 22-man rosters for the AFC and NFC. And from 1960-69, it named separate AFL and NFL teams. In the 1940s, with the AAFC, both leagues made up one team.

Dawson has been named to six AP NFL All-Pro teams. Of the finalists in this year’s voting, only Randall McDaniel was named to more. The former Minnesota guard was named to seven AP All-Pro teams – but at a position at which two are named every season.

Also, Dawson was named All-Pro center six consecutive seasons. To understand just how impressive this stretch of domination is, read the following list of players who’ve been named to six consecutive AP NFL All-Pro teams:

Don Hutson, Jack Christiansen, Joe Schmidt, Gino Marchetti, Jim Parker, Bob Lilly, Alan Page, Ron Yary, Joe Greene, Jack Ham, Jack Youngblood, Mike Singletary, Anthony Munoz, Reggie White, Dermontti Dawson and Larry Allen.

Of those 16 players, 14 are in the Hall of Fame, with Allen still active.

That leaves Dawson – and he was the only player of the above 16 to play a position at which only one All-Pro is named per season. Yet, he can’t even make it to the voting finals.

The ESPN Pro Football Encyclopedia has a feature in which they add up the assigned point values of every news organization that released an All-Pro team in any given year. The winner is the “consensus” All-Pro. Dawson was a five-time consensus All-Pro, all in succession. In doing a little research (that lasted six hours), I found only six players who were consensus NFL All-Pros five consecutive years at one-player positions (center-QB-HB-FB-MLB-TE) on either an offensive or defensive unit. Here are those six players:

Otto Graham

Mel Hein

Jack Lambert

Mike Webster

Dwight Stephenson

Dermontti Dawson

Again, all but Dawson are in the Hall of Fame.

What’s going on with the voters? Is it the Steelers blockade? This is the belief of the many who say Donnie Shell and L.C. Greenwood belong in the Hall. These conspiracy theorists have their own quotes from the Hall voters to make their case, but the fact remains Greenwood and Shell didn’t dominate and/or impact the game to the degree that Dawson did. Neither did Rod Woodson. Neither did Jerome Bettis. Dawson not only changed the nature of his position, he dominated it during his career.

Randall McDaniel? Okay, I won’t quibble with him. Ray Guy? Well, he is a punter. The Associated Press didn’t recognize punters during Guy’s heyday, and frankly neither should the Hall, but Guy did start his career with six consensus All-Pro selections (and never got another).

Of the current finalists, Russ Grimm and Gary Zimmerman follow McDaniel and Dawson on the All-Pro scoreboard with three each. But the guess is that Paul Tagliabue will be voted in this year because he was given the commissioner’s job at the same time the game was exploding in popularity (and because, I believe, the voters grew into their “elite” positions during his tenure).

I’ll guess that Green and Derrick Thomas (2-time All-Pro) will join Tagliabue in the Hall next August based on the positive memories that have been kept alive.

But, really, the only obvious choice is Dermontti Dawson. And for a center, it’s a surprise that stats can be used so easily to make his case. For that alone he should’ve been a first-ballot choice.

Story URL: http://pit.scout.com/2/721204.html

 

[SSOG]

The big problem about the "only one center is named All Pro" argument is that it ignores the fact that there are half as many Centers in the NFL as guards, so he has significantly less competition for the honor. 2/64 is just as elite as 1/32.

Not commenting on whether Dawson is HoF-worthy (I think he is), just saying that that argument ignores some pretty important points.

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

The big problem about the "only one center is named All Pro" argument is that it ignores the fact that there are half as many Centers in the NFL as guards, so he has significantly less competition for the honor. 2/64 is just as elite as 1/32.Not commenting on whether Dawson is HoF-worthy (I think he is), just saying that that argument ignores some pretty important points.

The part I bolded above pretty much sums it up. right under the bolded portion he gets into some cherry picking that you call out here, but even removing that portion of his argument it's still a mystery to me as to why he's getting ignored.

 

[dutch]

Using the all-pro criteria I agree Dawson deserves at least a nomination to the finalist list but can someone fill me in on how exactly he changed the way center is played in the NFL?

 

[CrossEyed]

Using the all-pro criteria I agree Dawson deserves at least a nomination to the finalist list but can someone fill me in on how exactly he changed the way center is played in the NFL?

I think Dawson was one of the first centers that was used like a pulling guard. He would snap the ball and then manage to be quick enough to lead a sweep. Really is ridiculous that he's not in the HOF already. Maybe the best center ever. Do a google search of articles about him when he was playing.Here's an example. Link

 

[bentley]

He deserves it more than many of the guys in there, but the "Steelers blockade" comment almost made me fall out of my chair. No organization is more overrepresented in the Hall of Fame.

 

[Tau837]

I would sum up the quoted article as saying he deserves it because his All Pro selections show he was better than his contemporaries. However, this argument ignores the fact that it is possible to have a period in which no one would be good enough at a given position to be HOF worthy... for example, it would be possible to have a decade in which no center was good enough to be HOF worthy... but they would still be selecting someone as the All Pro center every year. The article seems to take it as a foregone conclusion that if someone dominates the All Pro selections, that should be enough.I personally find it very hard to judge offensive linemen against each other. Even when watching a lot of televised games, there isn't a lot of time spent showing the offensive line play. Statistics for their positions are virtually non-existent. All there really seems to be is honors - like Pro Bowl selections, All Pro selections, All Decade teams, etc. - and reputation. Here is an old post that illustrates this problem:

I actually thought Dawson was in, which makes it that much more ridiculous. When he was playing, he was often cited as the best center of all time. Perhaps there's some personal grudge going on - don't know.

Old post on OLs.

And McDaniel is a possibility, but I have a hard time judging offensive linemen. I know Matthews made 14 Pro Bowls and McDaniel made 12, but what other measures do we have for offensive linemen... just opinions of the voters who hopefully saw them play? I mean, consider these guys:Willie Roaf - 11 Pro BowlsWill Shields - 10 Pro Bowls and countingLarry Allen - 10 Pro Bowls and countingJonathan Ogden - 9 Pro Bowls in a row and countingOrlando Pace - 7 Pro Bowls in a row and countingAlan Faneca - 5 Pro Bowls in a row and countingSteve Hutchinson - 5 Pro Bowls in 5 years in the NFLWalter Jones - 5 Pro Bowls in a row and countingOlin Kreutz - 5 Pro Bowls in a row and countingIt's hard for me to distinguish which of these guys truly deserve to make the HOF. (Clearly it's too early to tell for some of them, just trying to illustrate the difficulty of distinguishing elite OLs from Pro Bowl caliber OLs.)

The top four guys you mention are more than likely to make the HOF. I would say at least three of the other five will also. Some of them will be first ballot. Randall McDaniel is a lock to make the HOF and should be in this year. We are talking about the best players at their position for the length of their career. He more than qualifies.

I wouldn't disagree with you, but why those 4? Is it the Pro Bowls? Or do the Pro Bowls for offensive linemen happen to more accurately represent the best offensive linemen every year, meaning 9+ selections truly reflects dominance? I ask that because people often dismiss Pro Bowl selections for other positions as being overrated due to popularity contests, selections due to injury, etc.Also, why 4? What is the right number of offensive linemen to induct from one era? In the modern era (majority of career played since 1946), there have been only 30 offensive linemen inducted, including none whose careers ended after 1995. So far, only 4 have been inducted whose careers ended in the 1990s, though 9 have been inducted whose careers ended in the 1980s... wide disparity.

The post doesn't mention Dawson. I assume from his All NFL selections that he is the best of his era, and may well be deserving. But using that as the reference point implies either that the best of each era gets in or he was actually better than just the best of his era. And what is an era? etc.I find the subject of discriminating between offensive linemen to be interesting but difficult. For example, if we had to rank all offensive linemen not in the HOF together, as opposed to separating them into different groups for center, guard, and tackle, what would that ranking look like?

 

[dutch]

Using the all-pro criteria I agree Dawson deserves at least a nomination to the finalist list but can someone fill me in on how exactly he changed the way center is played in the NFL?

I think Dawson was one of the first centers that was used like a pulling guard. He would snap the ball and then manage to be quick enough to lead a sweep. Really is ridiculous that he's not in the HOF already. Maybe the best center ever. Do a google search of articles about him when he was playing.Here's an example. Link

Oh I'm quite familiar with Dawson and his reputation as one of the best centers for a generation but I never heard much about him changing the way the position was played. The hyperbole caught my attention is all.

 

[Black&Gold]

He deserves it more than many of the guys in there, but the "Steelers blockade" comment almost made me fall out of my chair. No organization is more overrepresented in the Hall of Fame.

I think what he means is that there were sooooo many Steelers of the 70s that made the hall, the voters are reluctant to put any more Steelers in at this time. Even if they are more than worthy. Dawson should be in, hands down.

 

[_4_]

A lot of people are convinced the Steelers linemen were the first and most egregious users of PEDs from the 70's through the 90's.

 

[CrossEyed]

A lot of people are convinced the Steelers linemen were the first and most egregious users of PEDs from the 70's through the 90's.

Do you really think that the majority of NFL players are not using PEDs?

 

[_4_]

A lot of people are convinced the Steelers linemen were the first and most egregious users of PEDs from the 70's through the 90's.

Do you really think that the majority of NFL players are not using PEDs?

For whatever reason, the Steelers O-Line has the worst reputation.....

 

[jasonbay]

Going a little side track, but where is the HOF love for **** Lebeau ?

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

I would sum up the quoted article as saying he deserves it because his All Pro selections show he was better than his contemporaries. However, this argument ignores the fact that it is possible to have a period in which no one would be good enough at a given position to be HOF worthy...

Bruce Matthews is already in the HOF. He played a lot of positions on the OL but he played center from 91 to 94. Dawson got Pro Bowl nods over Matthews in 93 and 94. Now, I don't know if Matthews is in the HOF for his work as a center or other positions (or the aggregate), but it's at least a starting point for comparison.

 

[redman]

He deserves it more than many of the guys in there, but the "Steelers blockade" comment almost made me fall out of my chair. No organization is more overrepresented in the Hall of Fame.

The fact that Lynn Swann is in there is a joke.

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

He deserves it more than many of the guys in there, but the "Steelers blockade" comment almost made me fall out of my chair. No organization is more overrepresented in the Hall of Fame.

The fact that Lynn Swann is in there is a joke.

see above. I think the point he was going for was that because so many of the 70s steelers got in (even marginal ones, or ones that flat out don't belong), there's now a perceived backlash against new ones going in. I'm not necessarily subscribing to this idea, but it isn't the first time I've heard it mentioned.

 

[redman]

He deserves it more than many of the guys in there, but the "Steelers blockade" comment almost made me fall out of my chair. No organization is more overrepresented in the Hall of Fame.

The fact that Lynn Swann is in there is a joke.

see above. I think the point he was going for was that because so many of the 70s steelers got in (even marginal ones, or ones that flat out don't belong), there's now a perceived backlash against new ones going in. I'm not necessarily subscribing to this idea, but it isn't the first time I've heard it mentioned.

I think your suspicions are correct, but you won't find someone like me being very sympathetic when, for example, no member of the Hogs, one of the most famous o-lines of all time, is not in the HoF. The Steelers are overrepresented. You want to know who to blame for that? Blame Lynn Swann.

 

[NorrisB]

A lot of people are convinced the Steelers linemen were the first and most egregious users of PEDs from the 70's through the 90's.

 

[Enforcer]

I'm thinking that there's a player from every NFL team that feels slighted.

SEA Cortez Kennedy

1992 Defensive Player of the Year

7 time Pro Bowler

5 time All Pro

Named to the 90s All Decade team

Is this the case? Does every team has at least one player like Dawson or Kennedy?

 

[Tau837]

I would sum up the quoted article as saying he deserves it because his All Pro selections show he was better than his contemporaries. However, this argument ignores the fact that it is possible to have a period in which no one would be good enough at a given position to be HOF worthy...

Bruce Matthews is already in the HOF. He played a lot of positions on the OL but he played center from 91 to 94. Dawson got Pro Bowl nods over Matthews in 93 and 94. Now, I don't know if Matthews is in the HOF for his work as a center or other positions (or the aggregate), but it's at least a starting point for comparison.

From Matthews' Wiki page:

He was selected to fourteen Pro Bowls in all, tying a league record held by Merlin Olson. Matthews was also named first-team All-Pro nine times (1988-1993, 1998-2000) and All-AFC 12 seasons (1988-1993, 1995-2000). He was selected as a guard on the NFL’s All-Decade Team of the 1990s. ... An extremely durable player, Matthews recorded the longest playing longevity at any position. He holds the league record for most games (296) and seasons (19) played by an offensive lineman.

He played all 3 line positions and went to the Pro Bowl at guard and center. According to his HOF page, he was a 3 time OL of the year; I don't know where to find the annual winners of that award to determine if Dawson ever won that award.According to his HOF page, Matthews was named 1st team All Pro in 1988-1993 and 1998-2000. According to his PFR page, Matthews was a full time center from 1991 to 1994 and again in 2001. So he made 1st team All Pro at C 3 times while Dawson was playing C, whereas Dawson made it only 1 time (I assume - 1994) while Matthews was playing C.IMO Matthews is more deserving than Dawson and is rightfully in the HOF. I don't think his election should have any bearing on Dawson's chances.

 

[Godsbrother]

He deserves it more than many of the guys in there, but the "Steelers blockade" comment almost made me fall out of my chair. No organization is more overrepresented in the Hall of Fame.

I think what he means is that there were sooooo many Steelers of the 70s that made the hall, the voters are reluctant to put any more Steelers in at this time. Even if they are more than worthy. Dawson should be in, hands down.

I am pretty sure Rod Woodson becomes eligible next season. He should be a slam-dunk.

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

A lot of people are convinced the Steelers linemen were the first and most egregious users of PEDs from the 70's through the 90's.

Hey, look. NewBGP™ is here. Hi, Guy.

 

[Black&Gold]

He deserves it more than many of the guys in there, but the "Steelers blockade" comment almost made me fall out of my chair. No organization is more overrepresented in the Hall of Fame.

I think what he means is that there were sooooo many Steelers of the 70s that made the hall, the voters are reluctant to put any more Steelers in at this time. Even if they are more than worthy. Dawson should be in, hands down.

I am pretty sure Rod Woodson becomes eligible next season. He should be a slam-dunk.

I used to love watching Woodson play but sometimes I thought he gambled way too much. But, he should be in before D. Sanders though. If D. Green doesn't make it in though, I don't think Woodson should. Maybe Woodson's Punt/Kick Returns will help. I hope he makes it.

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

According to his HOF page, Matthews was named 1st team All Pro in 1988-1993 and 1998-2000. According to his PFR page, Matthews was a full time center from 1991 to 1994 and again in 2001. So he made 1st team All Pro at C 3 times while Dawson was playing C, whereas Dawson made it only 1 time (I assume - 1994) while Matthews was playing C.

Dawson was a starter mid year in 1990. So I'm not suprised that it took a few years to really get up to top form. Note that I'm not saying Dawson is a better / more deserving candidate than Matthews, I only brought him up as a counterpoint to your "it's possible that nobody from the Era is deserving to go" point.

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

I think your suspicions are correct, but you won't find someone like me being very sympathetic when, for example, no member of the Hogs, one of the most famous o-lines of all time, is not in the HoF. The Steelers are overrepresented.

I don't argue. I've said before on this board that I think Swann doesn't belong. But there's a difference between asking for sympathy and asking for objectivity. I don't mind so much that you don't feel bad. But the fact that Dawson can't even sniff a nomination is kind of odd to me.

 

[Tau837]

the fact that Dawson can't even sniff a nomination is kind of odd to me.

There are 4 OL finalists right now, including Grimm and Kuechenberg. Grimm has been eligible for 12 years and has now been a finalist 4 years in a row... but he was not a finalist until his 9th year of eligibility. Kuechenberg has been eligible for 20 years and has been a finalist 7 years in a row... but he was not a finalist until his 14th year of eligibility. I think this was Dawson's 3rd year of eligibility, so this wouldn't necessarily be unusual.There are 32 modern era OL in the HOF. Looking at it by decade, which is very imprecise but still a data point:Career ended in 1950s - 2 (2 others are on the pre modern era list)Career ended in 1960s - 9Career ended in 1970s - 7Career ended in 1980s - 9Career ended in 1990s - 4Career ended in 2000s - 1It shouldn't be surprising that the returns are low for the 2000s given the eligibility process. I see McDaniel, Roaf, Shields, Allen, and Ogden (if he retires by 2010) joining Matthews in that group. Technically, this is Dawson's group, since his last year was in 2000.The 1990s look low to me, but I'm not sure why it is underrepresented so far. I think Zimmerman should make it sooner or later, to add to that group. And perhaps Grimm will eventually make it too. I personally don't see a compelling case for Grimm, though.Anyway, Given that between the 1990s and 2000s, I can only come up with 12 OL, and none of them centers, I think Dawson will get in eventually, even if it is via the senior committee route.I do wish there was a better way to quantifiably measure OL though.

 

[Godsbrother]

He deserves it more than many of the guys in there, but the "Steelers blockade" comment almost made me fall out of my chair. No organization is more overrepresented in the Hall of Fame.

I think what he means is that there were sooooo many Steelers of the 70s that made the hall, the voters are reluctant to put any more Steelers in at this time. Even if they are more than worthy. Dawson should be in, hands down.

I am pretty sure Rod Woodson becomes eligible next season. He should be a slam-dunk.

I used to love watching Woodson play but sometimes I thought he gambled way too much. But, he should be in before D. Sanders though. If D. Green doesn't make it in though, I don't think Woodson should. Maybe Woodson's Punt/Kick Returns will help. I hope he makes it.

Woodson was named to the NFL's 75th Anniversary Team back in 1994 and he only added to his legacy after that. If he doesn't make it something is seriously wrong.

 

[redman]

I'm thinking that there's a player from every NFL team that feels slighted.

SEA Cortez Kennedy

1992 Defensive Player of the Year

7 time Pro Bowler

5 time All Pro

Named to the 90s All Decade team

Is this the case? Does every team has at least one player like Dawson or Kennedy?

The oldest one from the Redskins was LB Chris Hanburger. He was selected to 9 Pro Bowls, the most in Redskins history, but is not even mentioned.

 

[Tau837]

He deserves it more than many of the guys in there, but the "Steelers blockade" comment almost made me fall out of my chair. No organization is more overrepresented in the Hall of Fame.

I think what he means is that there were sooooo many Steelers of the 70s that made the hall, the voters are reluctant to put any more Steelers in at this time. Even if they are more than worthy. Dawson should be in, hands down.

I am pretty sure Rod Woodson becomes eligible next season. He should be a slam-dunk.

I used to love watching Woodson play but sometimes I thought he gambled way too much. But, he should be in before D. Sanders though. If D. Green doesn't make it in though, I don't think Woodson should. Maybe Woodson's Punt/Kick Returns will help. I hope he makes it.

Woodson was named to the NFL's 75th Anniversary Team back in 1994 and he only added to his legacy after that. If he doesn't make it something is seriously wrong.

Woodson is a lock.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

I don't get it either. He should be a finalist.

 

[Balco]

I think Offensive Lineman, especially interior lineman, just don't get the respect they deserve from the Hall voters. The Hall of Fame should be for players that dominated their position. Dawson was dominant. Rarely can you find a center as athletic as he was. 6 consecutive All Pros. For 6 consecutive seasons he was the best player at his position. And he doesn't get a whiff of the hall.

I am a Packer fan, there is no homerism involved.

 

[Captain Spaulding]

Grimm, Zimmerman, Kuchenberg, Dawson....put them all in the HOF. They were all great and when I go visit Canton with my children, I want to see all of them. I don't understand why all of the politics of the HOF have to be there. If a player is great at their respective position for an extended career, put them in. Darrell Green put him in. Woodson/Sanders..put them in. If it comes down to splitting hairs and nearly 50/50 debates, put them in and it makes everyone happy except for a few elitists who have their own issues that they should be focusing on.

 

[Tau837]

I'm thinking that there's a player from every NFL team that feels slighted.

SEA Cortez Kennedy

1992 Defensive Player of the Year

7 time Pro Bowler

5 time All Pro

Named to the 90s All Decade team

Is this the case? Does every team has at least one player like Dawson or Kennedy?

Kennedy is a bubble candidate IMO. I think he merits consideration, but there haven't been many DL to make it for quite some time, and I think there are quite a few others ahead of him. Recent post that touches on him:

Here's a list of DL that began their careeri in the '80s or '90s to make the HOF:

Howie Long (DE)

Reggie White (DE)

That's the entire list. Bruce Smith of course will make it next year. Then think of who else is on the list:

From the All 90s team:

DEs

Neil Smith - 104.5 sacks, 6 time pro bowler, 6 time all pro

Chris Doleman - 151.5 sacks, 8 time pro bowler, 6 time all pro

DTs

John Randle - 137.5 sacks, 7 time pro bowler, 7 time all pro

Cortez Kennedy - 58 sacks, 8 time pro bowler, 6 time all pro

Warren Sapp - 94.5 sacks, 7 time pro bowler, 6 time all pro

Bryant Young - 84 sacks, 4 time pro bowler, 4 time all pro

I think Randle and Sapp are locks. Doleman might make it, but hasn't garnered support yet. Smith and Kennedy probably deserve it but won't make it.

Then you've got Jason Taylor and Strahan -- both locks. That's already four DL that will make it from this era, which is a bit more than the last. And Seymour doesn't have a big lead on lots of other DEs. By the time he's up for eligibility in 10+ years, his numbers will look very pedestrian.

Everyone in this thread needs to stop getting their All Pro number from Pro Football Reference. There should be / typically are 2 All Pro D-Ends and 2 All Pro D Tackles. Many of the players above overlapped in careers so it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to get as many All Pro's as are mentioned. The AP All Pro is the source. Seymour has 4 or 5 of those. I believe some as DE and some as DT. His versatility is his strength.He is the best defensive player from probably at least a 4 SB team. I think that gets him in. Nobody is looking at sack totals to define Richard Seymour. Go ask DR. Z from SI.

I agree with you about the PFR All Pro data. That's why I typically look at All NFL Selections:Bruce Smith - 8

John Randle - 6

Warren Sapp - 4

Michael Strahan - 4

Cortez Kennedy - 3

Jason Taylor - 3

Richard Seymour - 3

Chris Doleman - 2

Neil Smith - 1

Bryant Young - 1

Sapp, Strahan, Kennedy, and Taylor all won a DPOY award in addition to these All NFL selections. Bruce Smith won 2 DPOY awards.

At this time, IMO Seymour is not in the same class as those I listed above him. And IMO those I listed below him will not make the HOF. Seymour has more work to do.

 

[redman]

Grimm, Zimmerman, Kuchenberg, Dawson....put them all in the HOF. They were all great and when I go visit Canton with my children, I want to see all of them. I don't understand why all of the politics of the HOF have to be there. If a player is great at their respective position for an extended career, put them in. Darrell Green put him in. Woodson/Sanders..put them in. If it comes down to splitting hairs and nearly 50/50 debates, put them in and it makes everyone happy except for a few elitists who have their own issues that they should be focusing on.

The problem here is that you have a cloistered few making these decisions, and they jealously guard their turf all while dismissing outside pressure on them to do certain things or consider certain players. I wish the process was more open.

 

[Captain Spaulding]

Grimm, Zimmerman, Kuchenberg, Dawson....put them all in the HOF. They were all great and when I go visit Canton with my children, I want to see all of them. I don't understand why all of the politics of the HOF have to be there. If a player is great at their respective position for an extended career, put them in. Darrell Green put him in. Woodson/Sanders..put them in. If it comes down to splitting hairs and nearly 50/50 debates, put them in and it makes everyone happy except for a few elitists who have their own issues that they should be focusing on.

The problem here is that you have a cloistered few making these decisions, and they jealously guard their turf all while dismissing outside pressure on them to do certain things or consider certain players. I wish the process was more open.

What exactly are they jealously guarding against? Empty space in the Canton Museum is better than having a plaque of an athlete next to their own plaque? I guess I don't know much about the HOF.

 

[redman]

Grimm, Zimmerman, Kuchenberg, Dawson....put them all in the HOF. They were all great and when I go visit Canton with my children, I want to see all of them. I don't understand why all of the politics of the HOF have to be there. If a player is great at their respective position for an extended career, put them in. Darrell Green put him in. Woodson/Sanders..put them in. If it comes down to splitting hairs and nearly 50/50 debates, put them in and it makes everyone happy except for a few elitists who have their own issues that they should be focusing on.

The problem here is that you have a cloistered few making these decisions, and they jealously guard their turf all while dismissing outside pressure on them to do certain things or consider certain players. I wish the process was more open.

What exactly are they jealously guarding against? Empty space in the Canton Museum is better than having a plaque of an athlete next to their own plaque? I guess I don't know much about the HOF.

The job of gatekeeper isn't all that important if you're letting everyone in who knocks.

 

[Obie Wan]

A lot of people are convinced the Steelers linemen were the first and most egregious users of PEDs from the 70's through the 90's.

Do you really think that the majority of NFL players are not using PEDs?

For whatever reason, the Steelers O-Line has the worst reputation.....

They also got the biggest advantage becauase they were gaining the illegal benefits while no one else had started to use PEDs. Unfortunately many of those Steelers also suffered fatal consequences of being at the first cheaters. Now it's more or less an even playing field.

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

They also got the biggest advantage becauase they were gaining the illegal benefits while no one else had started to use PEDs. Unfortunately many of those Steelers also suffered fatal consequences of being at the first cheaters.

Say what you will about the ethics of it, but PEDs were not against the NFL rules in the 1970s.

 

[Irish]

They also got the biggest advantage becauase they were gaining the illegal benefits while no one else had started to use PEDs. Unfortunately many of those Steelers also suffered fatal consequences of being at the first cheaters.

Say what you will about the ethics of it, but PEDs were not against the NFL rules in the 1970s.

Do people really believe that the Steelers were the only team with players using PEDs? Lyle Alzado is the poster child for PEDs and he never played for the Steelers.

 

[JohnnyU]

Without reading any posts in this thread, Dawson deserves to be in the HOF. He was one of the greatest OL who ever lived IMO and maybe top 3 centers of all time.

 

[_4_]

They also got the biggest advantage becauase they were gaining the illegal benefits while no one else had started to use PEDs. Unfortunately many of those Steelers also suffered fatal consequences of being at the first cheaters.

Say what you will about the ethics of it, but PEDs were not against the NFL rules in the 1970s.

Do people really believe that the Steelers were the only team with players using PEDs? Lyle Alzado is the poster child for PEDs and he never played for the Steelers.

Thinking people do not believe that, but unfortunately for the Steelers because of a few well publicized cases their teams of the late 70's through early 90's will always be looked at with a jaded eye because of the pall of PEDs.

 

[massraider]

Linemen in general. I'd like to see no QB, RB, or WR (especially WR) get in for about 5 years.

 

[by_the_sea_wannabe]

This is pretty simple really

Mike Webster deserved to be in the hall of fame and is in

Dawson played the same position for the same team right after Webster

Dawson was better than Webster

...

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

sigh.

 

[CrossEyed]

sigh.

 

[chris1969]

This is pretty simple reallyMike Webster deserved to be in the hall of fame and is inDawson played the same position for the same team right after WebsterDawson was better than Webster...

Agreed, but there are alot of good lineman from the same era, which means it could take a while.

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

Let's go ahead and shut this one down.