Why PPR is a layman's game... (1 Viewer)

[firstseason1988]

I don't get the lure of PPR leagues. I am increasingly aware of the fact that it has become more the standard of leagues.

Fantasy football, (and all fantasy sports, I guess baseball was first), was invented to draft players to make your team superior to others who drafted with you in your league. You need to quantify it somehow by assigning points.

Call me old school, which I am, but assigning a point for a reception while assigning a point for 10 yards gained (as most leagues do) doesn't reflect that players' value to his team. For example, you can rush for 5 yards, but get outscored by a player who makes a reception for a 4 yard loss . The best caliber for a players' value is points scored then yardage gained. Why would you be in a league that values a statistic that is at best 3rd on the list of value to his team?

People say they do it "to even out scoring of the positions", so you "don't have all running backs drafted in the 1st round". This doesn't hold too much merit for me, so what if running backs are drafted earlier, to me they hold more value than most receivers anyway. To me a running back benefits from a great offensive line (to me the most important positions on the offense) but you really can't quantify offensive lineman stats, you have to do it from position player's stats. so, in order of value you have:

1. offensive line (can't quatify move on, all player positions are effected by the o-line)

1. Quarterback (generally tiers are larger and not as separated statistically so drafted later by VBD)

2. running backs

3. wide receivers (sure there are exceptions and drafts will be indicative as such)

4. tight ends

Why do people feel the need to even the positions when in reality these are the order of value in the NFL? Ok, I hear ya, this isn't reality, but fantasy. Yeah yeah yeah, the point of fantasy is to try to mirror reality as much as possible, at least the old school way. Why skew the value of a player to a statistic not as significant?

I have no respect for PPR leagues and will never participate in one, (unless it is free with prizes). It's a layman's game and shows lack of the true spirit of fantasy football. Hopefully this thread will help you see the light.

 

[fruity pebbles]

Because its a lot more fun?

 

[JohnnyU]

I have no respect for TD only or advantage to RB leagues. It's called choice. Don't try to force your opinions on me, I will only spit on you.

 

[Donsmith753]

I don't get the lure of PPR leagues. I am increasingly aware of the fact that it has become more the standard of leagues.

Fantasy football, (and all fantasy sports, I guess baseball was first), was invented to draft players to make your team superior to others who drafted with you in your league. You need to quantify it somehow by assigning points.

Call me old school, which I am, but assigning a point for a reception while assigning a point for 10 yards gained (as most leagues do) doesn't reflect that players' value to his team. For example, you can rush for 5 yards, but get outscored by a player who makes a reception for a 4 yard loss . The best caliber for a players' value is points scored then yardage gained. Why would you be in a league that values a statistic that is at best 3rd on the list of value to his team?

People say they do it "to even out scoring of the positions", so you "don't have all running backs drafted in the 1st round". This doesn't hold too much merit for me, so what if running backs are drafted earlier, to me they hold more value than most receivers anyway. To me a running back benefits from a great offensive line (to me the most important positions on the offense) but you really can't quantify offensive lineman stats, you have to do it from position player's stats. so, in order of value you have:

1. offensive line (can't quatify move on, all player positions are effected by the o-line)

1. Quarterback (generally tiers are larger and not as separated statistically so drafted later by VBD)

2. running backs

3. wide receivers (sure there are exceptions and drafts will be indicative as such)

4. tight ends

Why do people feel the need to even the positions when in reality these are the order of value in the NFL? Ok, I hear ya, this isn't reality, but fantasy. Yeah yeah yeah, the point of fantasy is to try to mirror reality as much as possible, at least the old school way. Why skew the value of a player to a statistic not as significant?

I have no respect for PPR leagues and will never participate in one, (unless it is free with prizes). It's a layman's game and shows lack of the true spirit of fantasy football. Hopefully this thread will help you see the light.

Or rather than incorporating a 1pt per 10 yards and 1pt per reception you use 1pt per reception and 0.1 pt per yard and take away points for negative yardage. Is that not the solution.

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

maybe you should start a league that scores based on DVOA - points scored and yards are just as flawed as receptions in reflecting the true value of a player to his team

 

[newteech]

I happen to agree.

In a Phenoms PPR auction last year, all my opponents started going crazy over the top RBs. I just sat back and picked off about 5 top WRs. I ended up easily outscoring the rest of the league.

I really think a 1/2 point per reception would make a better league.

 

[Donsmith753]

Or just remove PPR from lost yardage plays?

Many simple solutions.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

I only have 1 league left that isnt PPR. IMO its the better scoring system

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

PPR does not add value to WR compared to RB. Starting more WR in your starting lineup and less RB will do that.

 

[Bamac]

maybe you should start a league that scores based on DVOA - points scored and yards are just as flawed as receptions in reflecting the true value of a player to his team

I think receptions may be slightly more flawed than yards, but your basic point is dead on.A DVOA-based scoring system actually sounds intriguing. But I suspect pre-draft predictions would be too accurate, maybe making injury the main variable for success.

 

[thriftyrocker]

Do you only play in 2QB leagues or leagues with at least 20 teams?

 

[B. Nugget]

The OP sounds like most of the guys in my local softball team/friends keeper league. What they don't understand is that only 3 WRs scored in the top 20 in our format and 11 the top 12 were RB or QB, so it basically becomes an arms race to get RBs and top tier QBs...if you have both, you waltz right through the regular season and playoffs.

I finally got them to add a 3rd starting WR spot to go with the flex where if you happen to be strong at WR you can actually play them to equal out the RB heavy scoring, but with no ppr, it still devalues the elite WRs compared to the elite RBs. The fact that during our draft owners took Coffee and other marginal RBs instead of Crabtree or others from the deep WR class tells you all you need to know. If you don't have RBs, you aren't competing and since it is a 10 player keeper league, you don't have a chance at them if you don't draft them.

They will probably never change and I will never play in a league like that again. If it was redraft, I would have bailed on them long ago because they haven't adapted to the times...but instead I've rebuilt my team up after a few down years where I finished in the middle of the pack and couldn't land the top RBs and plan to take their money for the next few years.

They've actually contacted me about trying to acquire RBs...ironic????

 

[GregR_2]

...People say they do it "to even out scoring of the positions", so you "don't have all running backs drafted in the 1st round". This doesn't hold too much merit for me, so what if running backs are drafted earlier, to me they hold more value than most receivers anyway. ...

You do a poor job of describing the other side here. You're talking about how you cure the symptoms but completely ignore the "why" doing that might be a good thing.If the rules make it so that the correct move is to take the same position early and often in the draft, the role of skill in assembling a top roster is diminished. The ability and understanding to correctly weigh the value of positions doesn't help you as much when the most valuable players for the game are mainly all at one position. Even if a team is at the spot where taking that first QB is the best move, he still likely doesn't lose out much if he errs by sticking with picking the uber-valued position.My goal in changes like PPR are to introduce levels of complexity where understanding the game and how to determine values is maximized to play as large of a role as possible. Bringing some parity across positions at the top of the draft is but one way of accomplishing this... others include using auctions, having player contracts, and introducing new positions that lend themselves well to good predictions. Even in bringing some more parity to the positions at the top of the draft, adding PPR is but one way to do it. Adjusting starting lineup spots is another, and I use both in my leagues to up the complexity.

 

[Ned]

I don't get the lure of PPR leagues. I am increasingly aware of the fact that it has become more the standard of leagues.

Fantasy football, (and all fantasy sports, I guess baseball was first), was invented to draft players to make your team superior to others who drafted with you in your league. You need to quantify it somehow by assigning points.

Call me old school, which I am, but assigning a point for a reception while assigning a point for 10 yards gained (as most leagues do) doesn't reflect that players' value to his team. For example, you can rush for 5 yards, but get outscored by a player who makes a reception for a 4 yard loss . The best caliber for a players' value is points scored then yardage gained. Why would you be in a league that values a statistic that is at best 3rd on the list of value to his team?

People say they do it "to even out scoring of the positions", so you "don't have all running backs drafted in the 1st round". This doesn't hold too much merit for me, so what if running backs are drafted earlier, to me they hold more value than most receivers anyway. To me a running back benefits from a great offensive line (to me the most important positions on the offense) but you really can't quantify offensive lineman stats, you have to do it from position player's stats. so, in order of value you have:

1. offensive line (can't quatify move on, all player positions are effected by the o-line)

1. Quarterback (generally tiers are larger and not as separated statistically so drafted later by VBD)

2. running backs

3. wide receivers (sure there are exceptions and drafts will be indicative as such)

4. tight ends

Why do people feel the need to even the positions when in reality these are the order of value in the NFL? Ok, I hear ya, this isn't reality, but fantasy. Yeah yeah yeah, the point of fantasy is to try to mirror reality as much as possible, at least the old school way. Why skew the value of a player to a statistic not as significant?

I have no respect for PPR leagues and will never participate in one, (unless it is free with prizes). It's a layman's game and shows lack of the true spirit of fantasy football. Hopefully this thread will help you see the light.

Or rather than incorporating a 1pt per 10 yards and 1pt per reception you use 1pt per reception and 0.1 pt per yard and take away points for negative yardage. Is that not the solution.

You still lose to the -4yd reception.

 

[Black]

One point you made that I agree with is that giving a PPR and the reception yardage is a bit redundant. Taken to an extreme, points for completion or points per carry starts to become a little bit excessive. I don't like those leagues.

For my leagues, I did a spreadsheet with different values for TDs, yards, receptions, etc. My goal was to put equal numbers of different positions (RB, WR, QB, TE) in the top 20, top 40, etc. I used 10 yards/1 point for yardage.

PPR is a quick and dirty way to even out that balance. 0.5 PPR is a bit closer, but a sliding scale (0.5 PPR RB, 1.0 PPR WR, 1.5 PPR TE) does the best job of it. Keeping 4 points/Pass TD also helps reduce the number of QBs in the top.

So, my goal was to make other positions more valuable and it was absolutely to reduce the value of TD vulture RBs with stat lines like 2 carries, 1 yard, 2 TDs.

I have been extremely happy with PPR and only play in PPR now.

For most people it is simply a matter of what they are accustomed to. I would have a hard time resetting my 'value meter' if I went into a draft with no PPR. I'd have to work off cheatsheets for sure.

 

[JohnnyU]

I would be on board with not giving the point for the reception if the yardage gained isn't at least 10 yards. I do think it's stupid to give someone a point for a reception for lost yardage or a short gain.

 

[GregR_2]

I'll also add that my experiences with leagues that make changes like PPR or adjusting lineup slots to have some parity across the top show that they do achieve exactly what I stated as the intentions.

I think you can segment FF owners into three groups.

Owners who consciously understand how to value players in most any set of rules.

Owners who unconsciously learned a correct concept of value for the rules that they played in, but how cannot figure out value in a different rule set.

Owners who can't even figure out proper value in the rule set they are familiar with.

The third group are really easy to spot. They do things like don't draft RBs early enough year after year, but then complain about there not being RBs available or about teams who hoard them. Smart enough to notice they are in a hole without good RBs, but not smart enough to adjust their strategy to account for that.

The second group are the ones I'm referring to when I say in my experience, PPR and adding QB, WR and/or TE slots differentiate fantasy sports skill. The second group can compete at the top level in a league where stud RB works. But put them in a league where RBs aren't king and their failings become apparent very quickly. These are the guys who were always in the top few in standard format, non-PPR leagues, but the first year we changed up formats to have staggered PPR, a 2nd QB through superflex, and extra WRs and TE, they paid for RBs twice what they were worth in the auction and then got slaughtered by the owners who did understand how to determine actual value.

In those same leagues that went through rule changes, the owners who could actually determine who was more valuable from one position to the next all the way down the draft list, they were the ones who stood out head and shoulders above the rest of the league. Eventually some of that second group start to catch on as they see that what they did failed and so they start to adopt the strategies of the teams they see succeeding. But the people who can actually determine value end up having a bigger edge.

Throw in contracts, extensions, use of franchise tags, etc, as more components that need to be factored into value... and I find that the "layman's leagues" mentioned in the OP's title are the "standard" format, non-PPR ones... not the other way around. Those take less skill to excel in.

 

[massraider]

Those arguments are such a joke, I don't think the OP is legit.

 

[Phurfur]

I don't get the lure of PPR leagues. I am increasingly aware of the fact that it has become more the standard of leagues.

Fantasy football, (and all fantasy sports, I guess baseball was first), was invented to draft players to make your team superior to others who drafted with you in your league. You need to quantify it somehow by assigning points.

Call me old school, which I am, but assigning a point for a reception while assigning a point for 10 yards gained (as most leagues do) doesn't reflect that players' value to his team. For example, you can rush for 5 yards, but get outscored by a player who makes a reception for a 4 yard loss . The best caliber for a players' value is points scored then yardage gained. Why would you be in a league that values a statistic that is at best 3rd on the list of value to his team?

People say they do it "to even out scoring of the positions", so you "don't have all running backs drafted in the 1st round". This doesn't hold too much merit for me, so what if running backs are drafted earlier, to me they hold more value than most receivers anyway. To me a running back benefits from a great offensive line (to me the most important positions on the offense) but you really can't quantify offensive lineman stats, you have to do it from position player's stats. so, in order of value you have:

1. offensive line (can't quatify move on, all player positions are effected by the o-line)

1. Quarterback (generally tiers are larger and not as separated statistically so drafted later by VBD)

2. running backs

3. wide receivers (sure there are exceptions and drafts will be indicative as such)

4. tight ends

Why do people feel the need to even the positions when in reality these are the order of value in the NFL? Ok, I hear ya, this isn't reality, but fantasy. Yeah yeah yeah, the point of fantasy is to try to mirror reality as much as possible, at least the old school way. Why skew the value of a player to a statistic not as significant?

I have no respect for PPR leagues and will never participate in one, (unless it is free with prizes). It's a layman's game and shows lack of the true spirit of fantasy football. Hopefully this thread will help you see the light.

Why do you care how other people play? I play in both PPR and non PPR leagues and find my PPR leagues more fun because they are more competitive.You better wake up and check out the NFL, the WR position is becoming more and more dominate. I feel PPR reflect the new NFL while you are still playing in the 60’s.

 

[Mr.Underhill]

I like PPR.

A WR has to do things right to even get the catch. A RB doesn't really have that handicap. My guess is that a reception has a greater chance of resulting in a first down than does a carry. Moving the chains gives you a better chance of scoring. Scoring wins games.

PPR evens the value for guys that catch more balls on shorter patterns compared to the deep homerun threat guys. There's a reason the possession guys are there. They serve a very valuable purpose in the NFL. So we try and carry over that importance in fantasy.

Non-PPR scoring rewards a guy who made one 80 yard catch (thus affecting one drive in the game) the same as a guy who made 8 catches for 80 yards which more than likely moved the chains on multiple drives rather than just one drive.

I can't say the argument is without flaws. But I think across the board, over the course of the whole season, guys who get high reception numbers are doing just as much to help their teams as are the high yardage guys.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

I play in a PPR only league. No points for yards or TDs. It is the most fun league I am a part of.

 

[brownhelmets]

Why do you care how other people play? I play in both PPR and non PPR leagues and find my PPR leagues more fun because they are more competitive.You better wake up and check out the NFL, the WR position is becoming more and more dominate. I feel PPR reflect the new NFL while you are still playing in the 60’s.

The WR is more important now and reflects the NFL more then they used to.I am a huge fan of 0.5 per reception. It adds some relevancy to receptions without making it too crazy. For instance an RB has 8 catches for 26 yards. 10 points for those numbers do seem a little high to me. However, 6 seems a little more reasonable with 0.5 ppr

 

[ddarroch4]

I was against adding ppr to our league but finally tried it a few years ago. There is a reason why it's so popular, it's way better. Before whoever had the best RB always finished in the top 2 usually 1. Now the league is a lot more balanced and there are more ways for you to win. We also give 6 points for passing TD's. Now the big 3 positions are important and you don't just luck out by having the best RB.

 

[Donnybrook]

I am not a fan of PRR but to each his own. I find it odd that in PRR leagues NYG's Steve Smith is more valued than Greg Jennings because he requires 40-50 more receptions to gain the same amount of yards. I rather play in a league were a players value is determined on yards they produced and includes their special teams play.

 

[Zoomanji]

LOL

I'll never play a non-PPR. Its the "basic" version of FFB. I hope you at least use a TE in your league.

And really you aren't playing till you add IDP and punters.

 

[Fred Lane]

Has anybody played or considered playing in a league where there is no PPR, but the Ru and Re yards are weighed differently? For example:

1 pt/10 Re Yds

1 pt/20 Ru Yds

1 pt/40 Pa Yds

This would also increase the value of the WR without needing to factor receptions...

 

[netnalp]

I play in .5PPR but, I'd prefer a system that scores like Jeff Pasquino's article "Points Per Deception" from this site. It argues for point per receptions that result in a 1st down rather than PPR. I haven't been able to convince my commish to make the change, and I'm not sure CBS allows the scoring to be set up that way. MFL didn't either last time I checked.

 

[Holy Schneikes]

I dislike PPR as well. As the OP stated, it doesn't really make sense. I do LOWER myself to play in them ( ), but I'd prefer other solutions.

What is more valuable, 10 catches for 100 yards or 200 yards rushing? In PPR, they are worth the same. In reality, the rushing yards are worth MUCH more (and are generally accomplished by a much better player). What about 10 catches for 100 yards on 20 targets or 5 catches for 100 yards on 7 targets. The latter is a MUCH better performance, but in PPR the former is scored much higher. I understand some folks want to "balance" scoring bit, but that isn't the best way to do it. You really want to balance? Just assign different weights to the yardage depending on position. In the old days, that would be hard. In the era of online, real-time applications, it's cake. We already do it for QBs anyway. Why are receiving yards worth more than passing yards? In the NFL they are exactly the same of course, but in fantasy the QB gets a lot less per yard simply because it is "easier" for the QB to rack up those stats than it is for the WR.

I guess the whole thing stuck because people thought the twist was cool and "advanced". But really, it just adds artificial value to players who don't NECESSARILY deserve it. To each his own, and if you like it, that's OK by me. But it doesn't make a lot of sense IMO, and there are much more logical ways to accomplish the same goal it was intended to accomplish.

 

[radballs]

I'll also add that my experiences with leagues that make changes like PPR or adjusting lineup slots to have some parity across the top show that they do achieve exactly what I stated as the intentions.I think you can segment FF owners into three groups. Owners who consciously understand how to value players in most any set of rules. Owners who unconsciously learned a correct concept of value for the rules that they played in, but how cannot figure out value in a different rule set. Owners who can't even figure out proper value in the rule set they are familiar with. The third group are really easy to spot. They do things like don't draft RBs early enough year after year, but then complain about there not being RBs available or about teams who hoard them. Smart enough to notice they are in a hole without good RBs, but not smart enough to adjust their strategy to account for that.The second group are the ones I'm referring to when I say in my experience, PPR and adding QB, WR and/or TE slots differentiate fantasy sports skill. The second group can compete at the top level in a league where stud RB works. But put them in a league where RBs aren't king and their failings become apparent very quickly. These are the guys who were always in the top few in standard format, non-PPR leagues, but the first year we changed up formats to have staggered PPR, a 2nd QB through superflex, and extra WRs and TE, they paid for RBs twice what they were worth in the auction and then got slaughtered by the owners who did understand how to determine actual value.In those same leagues that went through rule changes, the owners who could actually determine who was more valuable from one position to the next all the way down the draft list, they were the ones who stood out head and shoulders above the rest of the league. Eventually some of that second group start to catch on as they see that what they did failed and so they start to adopt the strategies of the teams they see succeeding. But the people who can actually determine value end up having a bigger edge.Throw in contracts, extensions, use of franchise tags, etc, as more components that need to be factored into value... and I find that the "layman's leagues" mentioned in the OP's title are the "standard" format, non-PPR ones... not the other way around. Those take less skill to excel in.

Terrific post. I've honestly never understood why folks are either strongly against or for certain scoring systems (although I do enjoy PPR a bit more but I don't mind if it's not). I just look at it like this: understand your league's scoring system and then apply the scoring parameters to your projections, adjust your draft board, factor in current ADP data also assuming that some aren't making the correct modifications, and then draft accordingly and pick up value as it falls to you.

 

[The Fighting MaGoos]

What a joke post!

Seriously, if we weren't willing to adapt to changes in life we would still be getting around via horse and buggy.

The game of football has changed over the past 10 years and to morph fantasy football into something that will relate is only natural. Some of the biggest changes include, TE's, Wildcat, running back by committee and Shotgun/Pass Happy teams.

The TE trend really expanded in the 1990s with Shannon Sharpe, but more and more, college teams running spread offenses directed their tight ends to split out from the tackle and go slot, flex, or wide. These days, you'll see many teams with specific pass-catching and blocking tight ends. The number of top tier TEs are almost x10 compared to the days when Shannon Sharpe was it.

In Week 3 of the 2008 season, the woeful Miami Dolphins drew up a series of blocking-heavy option plays that decimated the Pats. Ronnie Brown scored four touchdowns on the ground and passed for another. More than half the teams in the NFL have taken direct snaps to non-quarterbacks in the following years. I understand that the "Wildcat" or single wing dates back to the origins of football, but they aren't the same. Now days the players have the option to run, option or pass the ball.

The furtherance of running back committees... More and more, teams are becoming aware of the effects of running back overuse, leading to committees of running backs where before, there was one workhorse. The days of TD having 2000 rushing yards are gone. Today RBs catch the ball more and share the load between 2 and 3 RBs. You rarely see stud Rb’s anymore take the load by them self. They even work their way into taking direct snaps under center.

Modern day shot gun was started by Tom Landry w/ Staubach and Danny White, but the pass back then wasn't a substitute for the run like it is today. In 2007, the New England Patriots became the first NFL team to pass more than half the time from the shotgun formation. This coincidentally brought out the copycats. The number of shotgun snaps not only went up over the last few years, but dramatically went up.

- 1999 through 2005, 15.55 percent

- 2006, 19.42 percent

- 2007, 27.03 percent

- 2008, 32.29 percent

In the second half of Super Bowl XLIII, the Steelers and Cardinals essentially quit running the ball and went no huddle with roughly 90 percent of snaps being shotgun.

All of that being said... With the passing game being more prevalent in today’s NFL, I completely agree that changing the fantasy football scoring and system is essential. It reflects the true game of football today where receiving RBs, possession receivers, pass catching TE's should be rewarded for what they do. Not just point for yards, but catches as well.

Fantasy football is a game of rules. Set the expectations from the start and go with it. All team owners know the rules and those rules are across the board. My league personally does .5 per reception accross the board and also gives points to QBs for pass efficiency. (1 pt for 3 compl, -1 for -3 compl.)

How is this approach is lackluster or laymans game?

Get out of the stone ages (old school) and see how real fantasy football is supposed to be played.

 

[Glaven]

I don't get the lure of PPR leagues. I am increasingly aware of the fact that it has become more the standard of leagues. Fantasy football, (and all fantasy sports, I guess baseball was first), was invented to draft players to make your team superior to others who drafted with you in your league. You need to quantify it somehow by assigning points. Call me old school, which I am, but assigning a point for a reception while assigning a point for 10 yards gained (as most leagues do) doesn't reflect that players' value to his team. For example, you can rush for 5 yards, but get outscored by a player who makes a reception for a 4 yard loss . The best caliber for a players' value is points scored then yardage gained. Why would you be in a league that values a statistic that is at best 3rd on the list of value to his team? People say they do it "to even out scoring of the positions", so you "don't have all running backs drafted in the 1st round". This doesn't hold too much merit for me, so what if running backs are drafted earlier, to me they hold more value than most receivers anyway. To me a running back benefits from a great offensive line (to me the most important positions on the offense) but you really can't quantify offensive lineman stats, you have to do it from position player's stats. so, in order of value you have:1. offensive line (can't quatify move on, all player positions are effected by the o-line)1. Quarterback (generally tiers are larger and not as separated statistically so drafted later by VBD)2. running backs3. wide receivers (sure there are exceptions and drafts will be indicative as such)4. tight endsWhy do people feel the need to even the positions when in reality these are the order of value in the NFL? Ok, I hear ya, this isn't reality, but fantasy. Yeah yeah yeah, the point of fantasy is to try to mirror reality as much as possible, at least the old school way. Why skew the value of a player to a statistic not as significant? I have no respect for PPR leagues and will never participate in one, (unless it is free with prizes). It's a layman's game and shows lack of the true spirit of fantasy football. Hopefully this thread will help you see the light.

In reality for real NFL teams, runningback may be the least important position. If a team has a good OL, they can throw in anyone at the RB spot and that RB will put up good numbers. If your fantasy league is making RBs the most important position by a wide margin, than it doesn't get any more unrealistic than that. Ways to fix this is to use Jeff Pasquino's favourite stat, PPFDR (point per first down reception). That way, a WR (or RB or TE) only gets a point per reception if the player gets a first down on the play. This way, a WR won't get a point for a -4 yard reception.

 

[PranksterJD]

I am not a fan of PRR but to each his own. I find it odd that in PRR leagues NYG's Steve Smith is more valued than Greg Jennings because he requires 40-50 more receptions to gain the same amount of yards. I rather play in a league were a players value is determined on yards they produced and includes their special teams play.

I'm with this guy. Its the edge cases that make PPR the lesser choice for me ( though I do play in a few ). The excessive guys that whose NFL significance is exaggerated in fantasy because of receptions.I still honestly don't understand why simply adding WRs to the starting lineup isn't the default means to "equalize" the positions.

 

[moderated]

1/2 ppr is ok, 1 ppr is weetarded.

 

[Hooper31]

Blue is the best color. Anyone that disagrees is either a troll or fishing.

 

[Andrew Garda]

I am not a fan of PRR but to each his own. I find it odd that in PRR leagues NYG's Steve Smith is more valued than Greg Jennings because he requires 40-50 more receptions to gain the same amount of yards. I rather play in a league were a players value is determined on yards they produced and includes their special teams play.

I actually find that just as arbitrary. I assume you figure a ST ace is worth more because he helps get field position and is important that way?Isn't Smith just as important to field position? If he gets 50 more receptions isn't it in part because he's relied upon more to move the chains and in perhaps in key situations? That Manning looks his way consistently? I think it's a huge assumption that he needs those catches because he's a lesser player (that's an assumption on my part but seems to be what you're saying) or less important. Maybe just used differently.

In fact one thing that holds Jennings back is the fact that he doesn't get looked at as much as people hoped when he first broke out.m So really, who is more valuable to his team? Is either?

 

[renesauz]

I don't get the lure of PPR leagues. I am increasingly aware of the fact that it has become more the standard of leagues.

Fantasy football, (and all fantasy sports, I guess baseball was first), was invented to draft players to make your team superior to others who drafted with you in your league. You need to quantify it somehow by assigning points.

Call me old school, which I am, but assigning a point for a reception while assigning a point for 10 yards gained (as most leagues do) doesn't reflect that players' value to his team. For example, you can rush for 5 yards, but get outscored by a player who makes a reception for a 4 yard loss . The best caliber for a players' value is points scored then yardage gained. Why would you be in a league that values a statistic that is at best 3rd on the list of value to his team?

People say they do it "to even out scoring of the positions", so you "don't have all running backs drafted in the 1st round". This doesn't hold too much merit for me, so what if running backs are drafted earlier, to me they hold more value than most receivers anyway. To me a running back benefits from a great offensive line (to me the most important positions on the offense) but you really can't quantify offensive lineman stats, you have to do it from position player's stats. so, in order of value you have:

1. offensive line (can't quatify move on, all player positions are effected by the o-line)

1. Quarterback (generally tiers are larger and not as separated statistically so drafted later by VBD)

2. running backs

3. wide receivers (sure there are exceptions and drafts will be indicative as such)

4. tight ends

Why do people feel the need to even the positions when in reality these are the order of value in the NFL? Ok, I hear ya, this isn't reality, but fantasy. Yeah yeah yeah, the point of fantasy is to try to mirror reality as much as possible, at least the old school way. Why skew the value of a player to a statistic not as significant?

I have no respect for PPR leagues and will never participate in one, (unless it is free with prizes). It's a layman's game and shows lack of the true spirit of fantasy football. Hopefully this thread will help you see the light.

In reality for real NFL teams, runningback may be the least important position. If a team has a good OL, they can throw in anyone at the RB spot and that RB will put up good numbers. If your fantasy league is making RBs the most important position by a wide margin, than it doesn't get any more unrealistic than that. Ways to fix this is to use Jeff Pasquino's favourite stat, PPFDR (point per first down reception). That way, a WR (or RB or TE) only gets a point per reception if the player gets a first down on the play. This way, a WR won't get a point for a -4 yard reception.

Always thought Pasquino's idea was interesting, but ultimately, just as flawed. A RB often serves as an "outlet" receiver. IN order to avoid a sack, or throw the ball away on a pass play where the downfield receiver's are covered...the RB takes a short pass in the flat, and gains 4 yards. Had the QB taken the sack...the team would have lost 5-6 yards...so isn't the RB's 4 yard gain just as big a plus for his team as a WR who caught a pass for 10 yards? Also...why is a 9 yard reception on first down less valuable then a 2 yard catch on 3rd and 2? Pasquino's system might be an improvement, but that improvement is very small. Considering the relative complexity of the stat...I don't think it's worth the trouble, IMO.THERE IS NO PERFECT SCORING SYSTEM. I prefer PPR, but to each his own.

 

[Glaven]

I don't get the lure of PPR leagues. I am increasingly aware of the fact that it has become more the standard of leagues.

Fantasy football, (and all fantasy sports, I guess baseball was first), was invented to draft players to make your team superior to others who drafted with you in your league. You need to quantify it somehow by assigning points.

Call me old school, which I am, but assigning a point for a reception while assigning a point for 10 yards gained (as most leagues do) doesn't reflect that players' value to his team. For example, you can rush for 5 yards, but get outscored by a player who makes a reception for a 4 yard loss . The best caliber for a players' value is points scored then yardage gained. Why would you be in a league that values a statistic that is at best 3rd on the list of value to his team?

People say they do it "to even out scoring of the positions", so you "don't have all running backs drafted in the 1st round". This doesn't hold too much merit for me, so what if running backs are drafted earlier, to me they hold more value than most receivers anyway. To me a running back benefits from a great offensive line (to me the most important positions on the offense) but you really can't quantify offensive lineman stats, you have to do it from position player's stats. so, in order of value you have:

1. offensive line (can't quatify move on, all player positions are effected by the o-line)

1. Quarterback (generally tiers are larger and not as separated statistically so drafted later by VBD)

2. running backs

3. wide receivers (sure there are exceptions and drafts will be indicative as such)

4. tight ends

Why do people feel the need to even the positions when in reality these are the order of value in the NFL? Ok, I hear ya, this isn't reality, but fantasy. Yeah yeah yeah, the point of fantasy is to try to mirror reality as much as possible, at least the old school way. Why skew the value of a player to a statistic not as significant?

I have no respect for PPR leagues and will never participate in one, (unless it is free with prizes). It's a layman's game and shows lack of the true spirit of fantasy football. Hopefully this thread will help you see the light.

In reality for real NFL teams, runningback may be the least important position. If a team has a good OL, they can throw in anyone at the RB spot and that RB will put up good numbers. If your fantasy league is making RBs the most important position by a wide margin, than it doesn't get any more unrealistic than that. Ways to fix this is to use Jeff Pasquino's favourite stat, PPFDR (point per first down reception). That way, a WR (or RB or TE) only gets a point per reception if the player gets a first down on the play. This way, a WR won't get a point for a -4 yard reception.

Always thought Pasquino's idea was interesting, but ultimately, just as flawed. A RB often serves as an "outlet" receiver. IN order to avoid a sack, or throw the ball away on a pass play where the downfield receiver's are covered...the RB takes a short pass in the flat, and gains 4 yards. Had the QB taken the sack...the team would have lost 5-6 yards...so isn't the RB's 4 yard gain just as big a plus for his team as a WR who caught a pass for 10 yards? Also...why is a 9 yard reception on first down less valuable then a 2 yard catch on 3rd and 2? Pasquino's system might be an improvement, but that improvement is very small. Considering the relative complexity of the stat...I don't think it's worth the trouble, IMO.THERE IS NO PERFECT SCORING SYSTEM. I prefer PPR, but to each his own.

It's not perfect, but I think the improvement is much more than "very small". Making a 2 yard catch on 3rd and 2 is very valuable, if that player didn't make that catch the drive is over, catches don't get much more valuable than that. Sure PPFDR doesn't contain all valuable receptions, like the 5+ yard gain on a first down for example, but the good thing about it is that points are ONLY given to valuable receptions. That example of the RB catching the ball when a QB is about to get sacked doesn't sound like a valuable reception to me. Even if the RB dropped the pass, the QB is no worse off because he still avoided the sack. Those type of plays mean that the QB did a good job, not necessarily that the RB did a good job just because he's been sitting out in the flat the entire play.

 

[Zoomanji]

Blue is the best color. Anyone that disagrees is either a troll or fishing.

 

[munchkin]

LOL

I'll never play a non-PPR. Its the "basic" version of FFB. I hope you at least use a TE in your league.

And really you aren't playing till you add IDP and punters.

IDP is interesting but in 1 pt per tackle Leagues the Defensive players score so few points that they become an after thought. How is this reflective to the value of outstanding defensive skill players weather they be LB's, DL or DB's? It is difficult to come up with a way to put accurate values on Defensive Linemen, particularly Tackles, or CB's who don't get thrown at but to distinguish IDP from other formats the Defensive players have to have relevant value to offensive players.

The complaint I have with drafting in Standard Scoring Rookie drafts for Dynasty Leagues is that little is reflected in the mindset of NFL GM's. With relatively little value put on defensive players the strategy isn't to build a balanced team but a team heavy in RB's followed by QB's and WR's. It's not hard to see why teams will take a chance on a QB at the top of the draft or "reach" for a potential impact player like Gholston or JPP early because impact players at those positions are harder to come by than 2nd Round picks, or later, like Hardesty or James Starks yet those Rb's are almost assuredly drafted first in a Standard Scoring IDP FF Leagues.

I believe the more balanced the League scoring the more interesting the drafts become and the more challenging the League's dynamics will be.

 

[Lott's Fingertip]

I'm with this guy. Its the edge cases that make PPR the lesser choice for me ( though I do play in a few ). The excessive guys that whose NFL significance is exaggerated in fantasy because of receptions.I still honestly don't understand why simply adding WRs to the starting lineup isn't the default means to "equalize" the positions.

A 10 yard rush is every bit as valuable to a NFL team as a 10 yard catch, but in PPR the catch is twice as valuable. 5 for 50 receiving is not as good as 100 yards rushing.That is silly, imo.If the NFL is becoming such a passing league and RBBC is becoming the norm, then why do we need PPR to even out the positions?A player that gets 2000+ yards SHOULD be more valuable than a player that gets 1400 yards... it is just logical.Adjust starting lineup requirements to even out positional value, don't artificially inflate one stat at the expense of another.

 

[Glaven]

LOL

I'll never play a non-PPR. Its the "basic" version of FFB. I hope you at least use a TE in your league.

And really you aren't playing till you add IDP and punters.

IDP is interesting but in 1 pt per tackle Leagues the Defensive players score so few points that they become an after thought. How is this reflective to the value of outstanding defensive skill players weather they be LB's, DL or DB's? It is difficult to come up with a way to put accurate values on Defensive Linemen, particularly Tackles, or CB's who don't get thrown at but to distinguish IDP from other formats the Defensive players have to have relevant value to offensive players.

The complaint I have with drafting in Standard Scoring Rookie drafts for Dynasty Leagues is that little is reflected in the mindset of NFL GM's. With relatively little value put on defensive players the strategy isn't to build a balanced team but a team heavy in RB's followed by QB's and WR's. It's not hard to see why teams will take a chance on a QB at the top of the draft or "reach" for a potential impact player like Gholston or JPP early because impact players at those positions are harder to come by than 2nd Round picks, or later, like Hardesty or James Starks yet those Rb's are almost assuredly drafted first in a Standard Scoring IDP FF Leagues.

I believe the more balanced the League scoring the more interesting the drafts become and the more challenging the League's dynamics will be.

That's why you need to play in an IDP league where defensive scoring doesn't make defensive players an afterthought. In my IDP league last season, Patrick Willis was a top 10 player overall, and Jon Beason and Brian Cushing were in the top 15 overall.

 

[CaptainHook]

fantasy football is about crunching numbers not relative contribution to a team.

the person compiling stats on a given play deserves about 1/11 of the credit for it yet he gets 100% credit in fantasy football. its a numbers game the fact that its based around football doesnt really matter.

 

[kremenull]

I don't get the lure of PPR leagues. I am increasingly aware of the fact that it has become more the standard of leagues. Fantasy football, (and all fantasy sports, I guess baseball was first), was invented to draft players to make your team superior to others who drafted with you in your league. You need to quantify it somehow by assigning points. Call me old school, which I am, but assigning a point for a reception while assigning a point for 10 yards gained (as most leagues do) doesn't reflect that players' value to his team. For example, you can rush for 5 yards, but get outscored by a player who makes a reception for a 4 yard loss . The best caliber for a players' value is points scored then yardage gained. Why would you be in a league that values a statistic that is at best 3rd on the list of value to his team? People say they do it "to even out scoring of the positions", so you "don't have all running backs drafted in the 1st round". This doesn't hold too much merit for me, so what if running backs are drafted earlier, to me they hold more value than most receivers anyway. To me a running back benefits from a great offensive line (to me the most important positions on the offense) but you really can't quantify offensive lineman stats, you have to do it from position player's stats. so, in order of value you have:1. offensive line (can't quatify move on, all player positions are effected by the o-line)1. Quarterback (generally tiers are larger and not as separated statistically so drafted later by VBD)2. running backs3. wide receivers (sure there are exceptions and drafts will be indicative as such)4. tight endsWhy do people feel the need to even the positions when in reality these are the order of value in the NFL? Ok, I hear ya, this isn't reality, but fantasy. Yeah yeah yeah, the point of fantasy is to try to mirror reality as much as possible, at least the old school way. Why skew the value of a player to a statistic not as significant? I have no respect for PPR leagues and will never participate in one, (unless it is free with prizes). It's a layman's game and shows lack of the true spirit of fantasy football. Hopefully this thread will help you see the light.

LOL! I didn't want to give up my Sony Walkman when MP3's came out, or my music cassettes and 8-tracks when CDs came out, either.......It's called evolution. The NFL is a passing league, get on board soon my friend, it's not to late to learn how to implement REAL fantasy strategy.Every year it's just like this for you, right, in a non-ppr draft.....Rd 1 - RB........Rd 2 - RB.........Rd 3 - Considering a good Wide Re, awwwww shucks, let me get that Tier 3 RB like always in the 3rd Rd, I'll take Donald Brown........

 

[Lott's Fingertip]

LOL! I didn't want to give up my Sony Walkman when MP3's came out, or my music cassettes and 8-tracks when CDs came out, either.......It's called evolution. The NFL is a passing league, get on board soon my friend, it's not to late to learn how to implement REAL fantasy strategy.Every year it's just like this for you, right, in a non-ppr draft.....Rd 1 - RB........Rd 2 - RB.........Rd 3 - Considering a good Wide Re, awwwww shucks, let me get that Tier 3 RB like always in the 3rd Rd, I'll take Donald Brown........

Asinine and condescending oversimplification.

 

[massraider]

LOL

I'll never play a non-PPR. Its the "basic" version of FFB. I hope you at least use a TE in your league.

And really you aren't playing till you add IDP and punters.

IDP is interesting but in 1 pt per tackle Leagues the Defensive players score so few points that they become an after thought. How is this reflective to the value of outstanding defensive skill players weather they be LB's, DL or DB's? It is difficult to come up with a way to put accurate values on Defensive Linemen, particularly Tackles, or CB's who don't get thrown at but to distinguish IDP from other formats the Defensive players have to have relevant value to offensive players.

There's nothing to stop you from increasing the tackle scoring. Tweaking the sacks, assists, passes defensed, whatever. And in almost any format, DTs and CBs will be an afterthought. Just the nature of the position.

You know, one of the benefits from getting away from the 'standard' fantasy format is that it tends to reward those that put in the work. And I am not just talking about PPR. Going to an auction, flex positions, IDP, whatever. To my mind, it helps eliminate the luck factor, and rewards the more prepared, skilled fantasy player. If you are doing a standard league, 10 team, start 2 RB, no PPR, snake draft format, blah blah blah, then any shlub can show up with a magazine the day of the draft, and put together a decent team. Anyone that has played a lot of fantasy football has seen this, more than once.

The more variables, or differences from the norm, that your league has, the better.

The biggest advantage of PPR is that it gives you more than one way to build your team. You can go WR-WR in the first two rounds (if you still must use the 'draft format') and field a competitive team. If you use standard scoring, it's a tough position to put yourself in. And if your league uses a flex, it is not an option.

Either way, the idea that it's a major crime to value receptions is absurd. Every single game, players rack up fantasy points that aren't a true indicator of their value. MLB making tackles 8 yards down the field, QBs on crappy teams getting garbage yards in the 4th quarter after playing badly, RBs racking up yardage vs. prevent defenses. We aren't trying to measure exact value per point here, it's impossible. We are trying to have fun, and improve the fantasy football experience. For me, and a lot of other people, PPR enhances the experience.

 

[Faust]

FBG had an article suggesting 1 point per first down catch. I can't find it right now, but it seems like a great idea to achieve the goal of equalizing position values and yet not award points for meaningless catches.

I can't find it right now with the site redesign, but if they update the archive with previous articles - I highly recommend that you look at it for your league.

 

[netnalp]

FBG had an article suggesting 1 point per first down catch. I can't find it right now, but it seems like a great idea to achieve the goal of equalizing position values and yet not award points for meaningless catches.I can't find it right now with the site redesign, but if they update the archive with previous articles - I highly recommend that you look at it for your league.

Love this article. The article titled "Points Per Deception" can be found in the archives, I believe only paid subscribers can view it. I found it in 2009 archives but it has been around for longer than that so it should be in other years as well.Articles> 2009 Archives > Strategy articles > Points Per Deception - Pasquino - 8/10 $

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

Any serious attempt to reflect real NFL value would make QBs the most valuable position by a significant margin and drafts would start out with 8-9 QBs in the first 10 picks. And they would do this with only one starting QB.

 

[munchkin]

LOL

I'll never play a non-PPR. Its the "basic" version of FFB. I hope you at least use a TE in your league.

And really you aren't playing till you add IDP and punters.

IDP is interesting but in 1 pt per tackle Leagues the Defensive players score so few points that they become an after thought. How is this reflective to the value of outstanding defensive skill players weather they be LB's, DL or DB's? It is difficult to come up with a way to put accurate values on Defensive Linemen, particularly Tackles, or CB's who don't get thrown at but to distinguish IDP from other formats the Defensive players have to have relevant value to offensive players.

There's nothing to stop you from increasing the tackle scoring. Tweaking the sacks, assists, passes defensed, whatever.

And in almost any format, DTs and CBs will be an afterthought. Just the nature of the position.



You know, one of the benefits from getting away from the 'standard' fantasy format is that it tends to reward those that put in the work. And I am not just talking about PPR. Going to an auction, flex positions, IDP, whatever. To my mind, it helps eliminate the luck factor, and rewards the more prepared, skilled fantasy player. If you are doing a standard league, 10 team, start 2 RB, no PPR, snake draft format, blah blah blah, then any shlub can show up with a magazine the day of the draft, and put together a decent team. Anyone that has played a lot of fantasy football has seen this, more than once.

The more variables, or differences from the norm, that your league has, the better.

The biggest advantage of PPR is that it gives you more than one way to build your team. You can go WR-WR in the first two rounds (if you still must use the 'draft format') and field a competitive team. If you use standard scoring, it's a tough position to put yourself in. And if your league uses a flex, it is not an option.

Either way, the idea that it's a major crime to value receptions is absurd. Every single game, players rack up fantasy points that aren't a true indicator of their value. MLB making tackles 8 yards down the field, QBs on crappy teams getting garbage yards in the 4th quarter after playing badly, RBs racking up yardage vs. prevent defenses. We aren't trying to measure exact value per point here, it's impossible. We are trying to have fun, and improve the fantasy football experience. For me, and a lot of other people, PPR enhances the experience.

Well there is if you don't control the League. The gist of my arguments are that the more balanced the scoring the more competitive the League and defensive players AREN"T an after-though in NFL drafts. Playing in an IDP League isn't all that difficult if there isn't commensurate vale for the Defensive players. Again it's tough to come up with truly weighted scoring across the board that will reflect NFL values but some Leagues don't even try.

 

[Black]

I was against adding ppr to our league but finally tried it a few years ago. There is a reason why it's so popular, it's way better. Before whoever had the best RB always finished in the top 2 usually 1. Now the league is a lot more balanced and there are more ways for you to win. We also give 6 points for passing TD's. Now the big 3 positions are important and you don't just luck out by having the best RB.

You know, I forgot but THAT was the reason I started doing the PPR point calculations in the first place! In a league I was in, the guys with LT (now ADP or C.Johnson) needed to hit on one more good RB, and they could be fairly dominant. Because it was redraft, the draft order was random each year (although, I always seemed to be 8, 9 or 10 every year!) and whoever had a top 3 pick had a huge advantage. I actually quit that league after winning 3 years in a row, because I always drafted QB/WR early, then stashed about 6-7 RBs in middle rounds. I'd lose about 1/2 of my first 4-5 games, then go on a tear in the second half of the season when a couple of my #2 RBs would be promoted due to injury, etc. I guess I didn't need PPR then, but it was because I did alot of research on #2-3 RBs types and hit on those later in the season.