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why should the jets even consider trading up ? (1 Viewer)

jetsman

Footballguy
my thought process is Mangini and Tannenbaum would be foolish to trade up...

they would be the laughingstock of the NFL if they do so. There are four players they can use at the top of the draft and to waste any picks for a trade up would be a waste of resources. whether it's Bush, DBrick, Leinert or Williams, the Jets cant lose unless they Panic and Trade up... New Orleans, desparately wants to entice one o the Jets Or Titans to move up to save money in contract terms and get more in picks, but hy do that and help them ? Mangini and Tannenbaum need toShow they arent fools and take whoever is left and maximize their return in this draft. Its that simple.

Dont reach for a Young or a Cutler, trade down if you like them that much, but under no circumstance trade up unless its straight up for 4 and you like a player better than another, and we all know no one will trade 1 2 or 3 straight up for 4. so the Jets have no valid reason to move up.

 
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Chaos Commish

Footballguy
I read somewhere last night, that seemed very credible at the time, that they have no interest in moving up. Any of the top 4 on their draft board work fine for them, and they like the next two picks too much to dump one for any particular player.

 

Chaos Commish

Footballguy
Also, I cannot find the link. I need to start saving all this stuff and blogging again. But, jetsman, to your dismay the same insider opinion claimed Young was in fact one of the top 4 they would be happy to get. I'd like to add that if that happens have an open mind. Rioting and looting on draft day is unattractive. :)

 
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saintfool

Dead sexy
my thought process is Mangini and Tannenbaum would be foolish to trade up...

they would be the laughingstock of the NFL if they do so. There are four players they can use at the top of the draft and to waste any picks for a trade up would be a waste of resources. whether it's Bush, DBrick, Leinert or Williams, the Jets cant lose unless they Panic and Trade up... New Orleans, desparately wants to entice one o the Jets Or Titans to move up to save money in contract terms and get more in picks, but hy do that and help them ? Mangini and Tannenbaum need toShow they arent fools and take whoever is left and maximize their return in this draft. Its that simple
while the jets have multiple needs, it comes down to needs. do you feel comfortable with pennington all season? if not, do you feel comfortable with ramsey? what about for the future? do you think that matt leinart would be able to take the reins this season? young? if you're the jets front office, you have to have ice water in your veins to pass on a franchise QB, especially one which may be the second coming. to say that you'd be happy with either of them is lying to yourself. would this draft be a success for the jets if they walked away with d'brick? i don't think so as it isn't going to turn the franchise around. potentially letting one or both of those guys slip away, when you are in a position to get them, is insane. seriously, would you risk letting another team grab either of those guys and be left with d'brick, hawk or whoever?

 

jetsman

Footballguy
Also, I cannot find the link. I need to start saving all this stuff and blogging again. But, jetsman, to your dismay the same insider opinion claimed Young was in fact one of the top 4 they would be happy to get. I'd like to add that if that happens have an open mind. Rioting and looting on draft day is unattractive. :)
I wont Riot or loot, but I will campaign to have Mangini and Tannenbaum verify they havent been lobotomized. they can get young at 6 if they feel that strongly, so trade down if they are sold on Young. just show some intelligence
 

Rovers

Footballguy
Trading up makes very little sense, paticularly with a new regime that doesn't seem to have any need to stroke their egos by making a big splash. Nor does their pedigree, ie:mentors philosophy fall in with any sort of trade ups.

At 4, they almost can't make a mistake, and I don't consider Cutler or Leinart at 4 a mistake either. Interestingly, Mangini is not on the QB scouting trip, but the owner, Woody Johnson and Tannenbaum both are. The OC is traveling with them.... Cutler, Leinart, then maybe the Oregon QB, Kellen Clemons, then to Texas to meet with Young.

One of the questions that were thrown at Cutler is if he thinks he can throw in the December winds in NJ. I'm not sure they think Leinart has the arm to battle those winter winds that whip up in that stadium. If Cutler is there at 4, I think it's 50-50 they take him now. Ramsey may or may not work out, but has only one year left on his contract.... and we all know what a china doll Pennington is. Add in the fact that this regime knows it has a minimum of 3 years to rebuild.... I think they'de really like to get whatever QB is at the top of their board, but not enough to trade up to get him.

I think the visit to see Clemons shows they have a contingency plan to formulate if Cutler goes to the Titans. Cutler is the guy they want, but not badly enough to trade up for him....

 

jetsman

Footballguy
there are no Guarantees that Leinert or Young are Franchise QB's. thats a given.... Both QB's have faults and at this Point the team is not a contender, that is a key here, to me, Brady Quinn is at least as good as either. Mangini and Tannenbaum need to think value and build a foundation with this draft...Let the Saints waste their pick on lienert with Brees on the squad or pay an OT # 2 money or get a 3rd DT, just dont cave to them. its the Saints who are desparate, let them panic. Its time the J-E-T-S finally got wise.

 
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Sidewinder

Footballguy
there are no Guarantees that Leinert or you are Franchise QB's. thats a given.... Both QB's have faults and at this Point the team is not a contender, that is a key here, to me, Brady Quinn is at least as good as either. Mangini and Tannenbaum need to think value and build a foundation with this draft...Let the Saints waste their pick on lienert with Brees on the squad or pay an OT # 2 money or get a 3rd DT, just dont cave to them. its the Saints who are desparate, let them panic. Its time the J-E-T-S finally got wise.
The Saints are hardly desperate. Ferguson and Williams are both worthy of the #2 spot (Williams would be a #1 in alot of years). And as far as need goes, even Hawk is not that much of a stretch at 2. But back on topic -- it's really quite simple, if the Jets want Leinart, they have to trade up.
 

saintfool

Dead sexy
so we all agree that they really need to draft a QB? then that begs the question: why settle? get the guy you think can anchor your offense for the next decade instead of playing it cool and potentially missing your chance. remove the possibility of getting your least wanted QB and instead have the good sense to pay for what that guy is worth to your franchise. drafting cutler at 1.4 is a possibility. is that a reach? yes.

 

Rovers

Footballguy
there are no Guarantees that Leinert or Young are Franchise QB's. thats a given.... Both QB's have faults and at this Point the team is not a contender, that is a key here, to me, Brady Quinn is at least as good as either. Mangini and Tannenbaum need to think value and build a foundation with this draft...Let the Saints waste their pick on lienert with Brees on the squad or pay an OT # 2 money or get a 3rd DT, just dont cave to them. its the Saints who are desparate, let them panic. Its time the J-E-T-S finally got wise.
OK, MAJOR pet peeve of mine with the Quinn hype. First of all, he's had only one good season, secondly, who says the Jets will have the first pick if he's the real deal? So many Jets fans talk about Quinn as though all we have to do is will it, and we can get him next year. The bottom line is THIS: If they believe Cutler has the ability to be a solid franchise QB, they have to trust their ability to evaluate the kid. Getting to cute and trading down for Cutler could backfire.... not to mention, there is a real chance he won't even be there at 4.

As far as Leinart goes.... I think he's a little bit too Hollywood for this FO, not to mention his ball may sail in the Meadowlands the same way Pennington's balls do on occassion. If you draft Young, you install a whole O scheme based on him.... very risky.

With the "possible" exception of Leinart, these QB's will need a year, or at LEAST a half season of clipboard carrying to be ready to start. Then, it won't be until 2008 that they might be ready as a QB to make a playoff run. Even if the Jets CAN get Quinn next year.... look at 2009 for a playoff run. UNACCEPTABLE.

 

jetsman

Footballguy
no saintfool thats why I say trade down if you want Young or Cutler, the Saints can have Leinert and tie up cap dollars, the only wrong move is a trade up. If as some have said, the Jets want Cutler, Trade Down. The worst thing that the front office can do is Rescue te Saints from number 2 so they can get what they want anyway at a cheaper price. Force the Saints to overpay. and maximize your own position. The Jets Dont like Leinert that much better than Cutler to move up in any case and Supposedly they are higher on Cutler as is. Let New Orleans twist until they offer us something to move down... wouldn't that be a switch? Like #2 and a 7th for #4. works for me :P :blackdot:

its gonna be 2009 before we can hope to contend anyway... I like Cutler and Id trade down to #6 for even a 6th rounder if Cutler is the FO choice.

Rovers, we really don't disagree here, I just say maximize the value of the pick, unledd you think the pack want Cutler more than whoevers left at #5. I'd be fine with Jay at #6.

 
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Rovers

Footballguy
I can make a prediction here.... someone will say look at Roethlisberger.... and then, the old Brady was a sixth round pick arguement.....

 

saintfool

Dead sexy
if you're in a position to get the guy you want then draft that that guy. if you are in a position to control your destiny then do it. it's such a rare thing that given the opportunity to get *that* player you should. why risk it?

 

Sinrman

Footballguy
The way things are shaking out, I'd think that if they want any chance at D'Brickshaw, they will need to move up. Unless NO pulls off some big trade for the #2, I can see them "settling" for Ferguson. And that wouldn't be bad at all...

Signed,

Drew Brees owner

 

Sidewinder

Footballguy
... The worst thing that the front office can do is Rescue te Saints from number 2 so they can get what they want anyway at a cheaper price. Force the Saints to overpay. and maximize your own position. The Jets Dont like Leinert that much better than Cutler to move up in any case and Supposedly they are higher on Cutler as is. Let New Orleans twist until they offer us something to move down... wouldn't that be a switch? Like #2 and a 7th for #4. works for me :P :blackdot:

...
Why are you stuck on this ? Do you understand the principles of being in a position of strength ? The Saints do not, repeat, do not have to do anything. Loomis has said repeatedly, if we don't get what we feel is fair value in a trade, we'll stay at 2. It really is that simple. Really.
 

jetsman

Footballguy
Saintfool, normally I'd agree but there is no clear cut number one here. an argument can be made for Possibly 6 players this year. why help the saints unless your positive abot one guy ? for a rookie Front office, thats a chance they shouldnt take. that's why i say the saints are the ones who are Desparate, because if they could get the same guy at #2 or #4 they would rather pay number 4 money.

Sidewinder, I do get it. Im just Saying that the Jets let the Saints do just that and pay their pick as a number 2 instead of as a number 4.....that's my point exactly, why help the Saints unless we get something for it. Especially if we dont have someone we like better thaat would cause us to want to trade up..... which I've said all along. it only helps the Saints.

It really is that simple. Really

Sinrmanthat is a good point, and that is more valid than the Leinert Smokescreen, because brick is the consensus best OL prospect, but I'd use 1.29 if thats ok by you.

 
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Sidewinder

Footballguy
...

Sidewinder, I do get it. Im just Saying that the Jets let the Saints do just that and pay their pick as a number 2 instead of as a number 4.....that's my point exactly,
So ? The Saints are not looking to trade down necessarily to save money, they want the extra pick(s), which in effect, may cost more money if we were to get them. But if we don't trade down, it costs a few mil more for the guy we really want. Hardly a desperate situation as you are trying to characterize it.
 

jetsman

Footballguy
then why all the Smokescreens with Williams Leinert and Brown the last few weeks ? Loomis and co are trying desparaely to entice the Titans and the Jets and have said they have no interest in trading down further.

Is that a position od strength youre talking about?

 
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saintfool

Dead sexy
Saintfool, normally I'd agree but there is no clear cut number one here. an argument can be made for Possibly 6 players this year. why help the saints unless your positive abot one guy ? for a rookie Front office, thats a chance they shouldnt take. that's why i say the saints are the ones who are Desparate, because if they could get the same guy at #2 or #4 they would rather pay number 4 money.
i think for a rookie front office to pin their hopes on "we don't care who we get at 1.4" is risky to the point of negligent. if you can say that the jets would be happy with any of them that's one thing. however, we all know they are targeting someone. teams that want one a leinart or young will try to make a move, even if the jets don't. the jets just can't take that chance, quite frankly. if you can assure me that every other team in the draft won't make a play then your logic holds and it's a good call. otherwise, you are risking too much. why characterize your draft behavior as passive aggressive? go after the guy you want, pay the price and move on.
 

saintfool

Dead sexy
then why all the Smokescreens with Williams Leinert and Brown the last few weeks ? Loomis and co are trying desparaely to entice the Titans and the Jets and have said they have no interest in trading down further.

Is that a position od strength youre talking about?
because you have to prepare for all contingencies. it's due diligence. what if the texans surprise everyone and trade out of 1.1? quite honestly, i think this is the most professional i have seen the saints front office act since the late jim finks was in charge.
 

jetsman

Footballguy
saintfool , see now that does make sense. but doesnt the same hold true for the Saints? My entire argument is based on the fact that the Jets have multiple needs, as do the Saints. Why waste an Asset when the JE-E-T-S need to fill multiple holes.... thats exactly what the Saints are trying to do.... I'm saying lets show the same intelligence you guys are and say no.

"if you can assure me that every other team in the draft won't make a play then your logic holds and it's a good call"

No I'm saying at # 4 no one stands out that much to waste an asset with so many holes to fill, otherwise why would you risk trading down from #2 to #4 unless you agree with that premise using your own logic.

And yes the Saints are Playing it right, I'm just saying do not fall for it. I'm very Impressed by what Loomis has done actually. I just want the J-E-T-S to be as SMART.

 
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Gold Plated Nails

Footballguy
saintfool , see now that does make sense. but doesnt the same hold true for the Saints? My entire argument is based on the fact that the Jets have multiple needs, as do the Saints. Why waste an Asset when the JE-E-T-S need to fill multiple holes.... thats exactly what the Saints are trying to do.... I'm saying lets show the same intelligence you guys are and say no.

"if you can assure me that every other team in the draft won't make a play then your logic holds and it's a good call"

No I'm saying at # 4 no one stands out that much to waste an asset with so many holes to fill, otherwise why would you risk trading down from #2 to #4 unless you agree with that premise using your own logic.
Jetsman, the whole premise of your arguement is that "no one stands out that much". This is your opinion, perhaps even a majority opinion. However if the Jets Brass believes somebody truly does stand out, then it is not foolish to make a move up and be sure to get their guy. The difference between getting the next Manning over Leaf, or McNab over Couch, etc, is certainly worth a couple of picks if the Jets believe they can identify their man.
 

saintfool

Dead sexy
saintfool , see now that does make sense. but doesnt the same hold true for the Saints? My entire argument is based on the fact that the Jets have multiple needs, as do the Saints. Why waste an Asset when the JE-E-T-S need to fill multiple holes.... thats exactly what the Saints are trying to do.... I'm saying lets show the same intelligence you guys are and say no.

"if you can assure me that every other team in the draft won't make a play then your logic holds and it's a good call"

No I'm saying at # 4 no one stands out that much to waste an asset with so many holes to fill, otherwise why would you risk trading down from #2 to #4 unless you agree with that premise using your own logic.

And yes the Saints are Playing it right, I'm just saying do not fall for it. I'm very Impressed by what Loomis has done actually. I just want the J-E-T-S to be as SMART.
if i'm the saints, i'm looking to trade down. barring that, if i am forced to take one of those guys then i'm comfy with that. in part, this is because i'm in a position to do this. brees is partically a one year contract after all. if i'm the jets and don't trade up up, i had better be happy with the leftovers and potentially not getting the guy they really want.

 
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TwinTurbo

Footballguy
I think the Jets would be content to stay put at #4. But I would be very interested to see what it would take for them to move up to get Reggie Bush. The cost is probably too high, but he would look really good in a Jets uniform and probably make the most impact in NY out of any of the Top 5 picks in 2006. That said, D'Brick is probably the pick here and a very solid pick at that.

 

jetsman

Footballguy
Gold Plated Nails, In this case with a Rookie front office, Multiple Needs and no clear cut Number 1. the wase of an asset is an unnecessary risk. Do Tannenbaum or Mangini Rsk their careers to trade up when by all accounts the top of this draft is very evenly rated. its an unnecessary risk, once again why else do the saints trade down....?If the saints believe one player is head and shoulders superior to all the others, why trade down and risk losing him ?

it indicates that Loomis is very shrewd and has reached the same conclusion I have, that #2 And #4 are virtually interchangeble talentwise and that Slotting of salary considerations are a factor as well.

Saintfool you gve yourself away wen you say if the Saints are forced to pick at #2. as twin Turbo Says the J-E-T-S are content with what we'll see at #4.

 
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crimsonrebel

Footballguy
i dont think dbrick will be there for them at #4. If the saints stay at #2, i see them drafting him. They just traded a good OT away, and the backup is unproven. Drafting dbrick makes sense for them, since he's a surefire cant miss barring injuries. The saints might trade down, but it wont be out of the top 5.

 

Gold Plated Nails

Footballguy
Gold Plated Nails, In this case with a Rookie front office, Multiple Needs and no clear cut Number 1. the wase of an asset is an unnecessary risk. Do Tannenbaum or Mangini Rsk their careers to trade up when by all accounts the top of this draft is very evenly rated. its an unnecessary risk, once again why else do the saints trade down....?If the saints believe one player is head and shoulders superior to all the others, why trade down and risk losing him ?

it indicates that Loomis is very shrewd and has reached the same conclusion I have, that #2 And #4 are virtually interchangeble talentwise and that Slotting of salary considerations are a factor as well.
Heck yah you risk your career. Most of the time you never get a shot, if you finally do, you better not just play it safe.I'll use 1999 as an example. The Draft looked great on paper, chalk full of outstanding QBs, RBs, playmakers galore. The Bengals sitting at #3 figured they would just wait till their pick and make it, why trade up with all the talent and so many needs? It was difficult to figure the difference in the QBs, they were all going to be stars back then.

1 Tim Couch (Drafted by Policy and the Boys in Cleveland, all long since out of work now, including Couch)

2 Donovan McNabb (Drafted by Reid, universally viewed as great Coach/GM)

3 Cincinnati Akili Smith (Whole sale Front office and coaching changes made since then from Coslet to Lebeau regimes. had Mike Brown not owned the team he would have been fired too, Smith one of biggest busts ever)

Point is, if you see a guy that you think is going to be a real difference maker, by all means I gamble for it.

 

jetsman

Footballguy
Crimson, I tend to agree that you're right on with that... everything I've read says the Sants have no interest in moving lower than #4 and that Indicates the Saints see the top 4 as relatively interchangeable or that they feel the guy they want will be there at #4.... otherwise why trade down?

 

Scorehoard

Footballguy
I see these 3 (Cutler, Leinert, Young) similar to that 99' draft class. I also see all this hype for the 3 similar to the Peyton Manning/ Ryan Leaf debocle. One of these guys and like 99' two of them could prove to be HUGE flops. There IS a first time for everything so maybe all 3 will bust. I am just not buying into the hype and look forward to seeing this progress through the years. I hope no one trades up for one of these 3 so THEY don't go down in history as THAT TEAM!! I am extremely excited about the draft and look forward to it!

 

Gold Plated Nails

Footballguy
I see these 3 (Cutler, Leinert, Young) similar to that 99' draft class. I also see all this hype for the 3 similar to the Peyton Manning/ Ryan Leaf debocle. One of these guys and like 99' two of them could prove to be HUGE flops. There IS a first time for everything so maybe all 3 will bust. I am just not buying into the hype and look forward to seeing this progress through the years. I hope no one trades up for one of these 3 so THEY don't go down in history as THAT TEAM!! I am extremely excited about the draft and look forward to it!
My whole point is if you are the Jets and you view all these guys as interchangeable, then fine yah, sit tight and pick the guy who falls to you. That would be the smart way to operate as you save yourself draft picks from trading up. The reality is, this is usually the wrong approach, and what seperates average GMs from good ones is being able to seperate the Top 4 players and identify the 1 or perhaps 2 stars and thus moving up if need be to acquire them. These GMs now days get paid millions to be able to do just that.
 

jetsman

Footballguy
Gold plated philly stood pat and didnt trade up for Couch. McNabb was a reach at the time but Reid liked him and so he didn't take Ricky as Was the Rumor . Next came Smith, And Coslet liked him and was considering trading up but was overruled by Mike Brown. I tend to think that was bad drafting on the bengals part, Edge James, Ricky Williams, and Torry Holt and Champ Bailey were the next 4 picks... Drafting Akili Smith cost Coslet his Job which really proves my point. thanks!!!!!!!

 
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Gold Plated Nails

Footballguy
Gold plated philly stood pat and didnt trade up for Couch. McNabb  was a reach at the time but Reid liked him and so he didn't take Ricky as Was the Rumor . Next came Smith,  And Coslet  liked him and was considering trading up but was overruled by Mike Brown. I tend to think that was bad drafting on the bengals part, Edge James, Ricky Williams, and Torry Holt and Champ Bailey were the next 4 picks... Drafting Akili Smith cost Coslet his Job  which really proves my point. thanks!!!!!!!
Actually the most of the guys who drafted Williams, Holt, Bailey, and James are all no longer employed by those teams, actually several are just out of football management in general. The only guy who kept his job was the guy smart enough to identify the franchise QB. My point is it is fine to stand pat and take the best available player if you have them all ranked the same. Thats what you apparently believe as do most people. However if the Jets Brass really thinks one of those guys is a Franchise QB, you have to make the play to get him, if you don't you will be unemployed in a few years.
 
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jetsman

Footballguy
oh polian is out in indy? Dont think so...... Coslet wanted to trade up for Smith but was overruled and then reid shocked everyone by reaching for Mcnabb. the point is that Coslet wanted to move up to get Smith and he lost his job because of it The Jets in 2003 traded two firsts to get Robertson when Kevin Williams was a far better pick. you should never move up unless youre sure the guy you want is the guy.

You've never Answered gold Plated why Trade down If thats what you believe ?cant your Saints just tale the best Player out their at two ? just as youve proposed..... arent you risking losing the best player not once but twice by trading down to #4

seems kinda hypocritical to me based on you stated beliefs.

 
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Gold Plated Nails

Footballguy
oh polian is out in indy? Dont think so...... Coslet wanted to trade up for Smith but was overruled and then reid shocked everyone by reaching for Mcnabb. the point is that Coslet wanted to move up to get Smith and he lost his job because of it The Jets in 2003 traded two firsts to get Robertson when Kevin Williams was a far better pick. you should never move up unless youre sure the guy you want is the guy.

You've never Answered gold Plated why Trade down If thats what you believe ?cant your Saints just tale the best Player out their at two ? just as youve proposed.....

seems kinda hypocritical to me based on you stated beliefs.
I'm not arguing on the behalf of the Saints. I'm arguing on the behalf of "Why should the Jets even consider moving up". If the Jets front office believes Leinart (just taking him as an example) is truly the best QB, a franchise can't miss guy, then they need to "Even consider trading up". This entire topic, your premise is that nobody is worth trading up for, why are the Jets considering it? I'm saying if the Jets Brass really thinks there is a guy who stands out, go get him. Don't sit back, that's how you get unemployed.
 

jetsman

Footballguy
gold the Whole point is that the J-E-T-S shouldn't consider it. the fact that the Saints want to move down supports the premise Your own argument supports it as well, unless the Jets can Identify a player Clearly better than any other player available and with the diverse opinions on this draft, there is no reason to do so.

by the way nice sidestepping a direct question on why your saints dont follow your advice. its ok though it just highlights the lack of a clear hierarchy among the top picks among scouts and fans alike

 

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