Why Tom Brady may be the best of the best (1 Viewer)

[Tanner9919]

Watching this weekend's games just seems to reinforce the idea that Brady may indeed be the elite of the QB's of the modern era (last 5-10 seasons).

This guy absolutely gets it done in the playoffs, time and time again. Yesterday, absolutely destroying the opposition while Rodgers and Brees choke. Sure, Brees, Rodgers, and P. Manning have all won a superbowl, but with Brady it seems you get a guy you can rely on in the clutch, in the playoffs when it matters the most. Having won 3 superbowls in the last 10 years just re-inforces the argument. Sure you can make a case that Belicheck puts a solid team behind him, but even so, Brady just seems to get it done no matter what.

IMO, Brady is the best QB of the last 10 years, hands down.

Im sure many will disagree, but just my thoughts.

He's 1-3 in his last 4 postseason games.

Brady is 15-5 in 20 playoff games. He's thrown 36 TDs to 17 INTs. Those numbers are second only to Joe Montana. Peyton Manning is 9-10 in the playoffs and has 29 TDs to 19 INTs.

Brady's numbers skewed by 136 rating,6-1 td-int last week v. denver.

Big Ben, prior to start of this postseason, has a better postseason winning % than Brady, Montana, Elway, etc. it's probably still the same despite loss to denver..

he ranks 4th all time, reg season winning percentage.10th all time QB Rating ( 92.9),11th in comp %, 5th in ypa,

won a SB as a rookie,first ever QB to do so, and has won another SB on his own ( Holmes pass) while nearly winning another SB last season.

For all his prowess, Brady has a postseason QB rating of just 89.1 - again,partially skewed by a 136 rating tossed last week v. denver ( 83 for Big Ben, including a 22.6 in a SB win over Seattle)..

for my money, they are equals..but Brady gets the love because he's a pretty boy with plucked eyebrows and Jim Nantz has a man-crush on him..

from BostonFredsince spygate, tom brady has led his team to an 18-0 record, broken the td record, set the int record, and broken marinos yardage record, while leading his team to a nearly .800 win percentage, two league mvps, two afc chamionship games, and helping welker lead the league in receptions, moss set the td record, and gronkowski have the greatest season for a te in nfl history in just his second year in the league.

[/quote}

when Matthew Stafford falls 46 yards short of breaking Marino's record, tosses 41 TDs in a year when 4 QB's were the fastest to 4000 yards in NFL history, when Rodgers is/was playing out of his mind, and when Brees sets the all-time passing record, and in a day and age when 10 different NFL qb's throw for 4000+ yards in a single season, I'm beginning to summarily dismiss anyone's accomplishments like the TD record, int record, yardage record,Gronkowski nothwithstanding..

again, when Matthew friggin Stafford passes for 5000+ yards and 41 tds, Brady's stat compiling over the years should be taken with a grain of salt..

this is not the same NFL as it was in the 80's or 90's.the rules have made is SO much easier to pass the ball,easier for WR's to do their thing,etc..

we'll see what Brady brings to the table against Ed Reed and the Ravens..last time they met in post season - 2009 - Brady had a 54.8 comp percentage, 2tds/3ints, 3.67 ypa, and a paltry 49.1 rating...

we're likely to see the same Brady this weekend...

 

[bostonfred]

The idea that postseason performance is just normal variance is a bit silly. I fully agree that postseason performance is not the only measurement of a player, nor the most important. But if you repeatedly make mistakes in big games - like manning or romo - for long stretches of time, that means something. If you can make good decisions and big plays at the end of a game, that also means something.

Is alex smith a better player because vernon davis held on to a ball in tight coverage with seconds left on the clock? No, he made the same throw regardless of what happened after it left his hand. But he put his teammate in a position to win the game, and his decisions and play on those final two drives were impeccable (ok, maybe he should have stopped at the one on that run). You have to give him credit for that. In the grand scheme of things we saw that alex smith was able to handle that kind of pressure. Despite the small sample size with smith, if I had to bet on a cowboys 49ers game next year and the line were a pickem based on all the other factors involved, give me the 49ers.

In the nfl, every play is not played with the same passion, the same desire to leave it all on the field and get the extra yard or get out of bounds or take the big hit to make this catch on every play. These are professionals whose career depends on them being able to line up for the next play and survive a sixteen game season. Some guys can turn up that level of play a little more when it counts. Some guys shrivel up. Sure, variance plays a role. But if I see a guy shrivel a few times, and another guy step up a few times, the odds of it being just variance go down

 

[David Yudkin]

Brady's numbers skewed by 136 rating,6-1 td-int last week v. denver.

Big Ben, prior to start of this postseason, has a better postseason winning % than Brady, Montana, Elway, etc. it's probably still the same despite loss to denver..

he ranks 4th all time, reg season winning percentage.10th all time QB Rating ( 92.9),11th in comp %, 5th in ypa,

won a SB as a rookie,first ever QB to do so, and has won another SB on his own ( Holmes pass) while nearly winning another SB last season.

For all his prowess, Brady has a postseason QB rating of just 89.1 - again,partially skewed by a 136 rating tossed last week v. denver ( 83 for Big Ben, including a 22.6 in a SB win over Seattle)..

for my money, they are equals..but Brady gets the love because he's a pretty boy with plucked eyebrows and Jim Nantz has a man-crush on him..

from BostonFred

since spygate, tom brady has led his team to an 18-0 record, broken the td record, set the int record, and broken marinos yardage record, while leading his team to a nearly .800 win percentage, two league mvps, two afc chamionship games, and helping welker lead the league in receptions, moss set the td record, and gronkowski have the greatest season for a te in nfl history in just his second year in the league.

when Matthew Stafford falls 46 yards short of breaking Marino's record, tosses 41 TDs in a year when 4 QB's were the fastest to 4000 yards in NFL history, when Rodgers is/was playing out of his mind, and when Brees sets the all-time passing record, and in a day and age when 10 different NFL qb's throw for 4000+ yards in a single season, I'm beginning to summarily dismiss anyone's accomplishments like the TD record, int record, yardage record,Gronkowski nothwithstanding..again, when Matthew friggin Stafford passes for 5000+ yards and 41 tds, Brady's stat compiling over the years should be taken with a grain of salt..

this is not the same NFL as it was in the 80's or 90's.the rules have made is SO much easier to pass the ball,easier for WR's to do their thing,etc..

we'll see what Brady brings to the table against Ed Reed and the Ravens..last time they met in post season - 2009 - Brady had a 54.8 comp percentage, 2tds/3ints, 3.67 ypa, and a paltry 49.1 rating...

we're likely to see the same Brady this weekend...

LOL that Brady's post season passer rating is getting skewed from one game when he's played in 20 post-season games.Look, you can pick whoever you what to be better than whomever you want. That's your call. But statistics can be very misleading.

Joe Flacco has already won more playoff road games than any player in league history. He's the only QB to lead his team to the playoffs the first 4 years he played. For all QBs through 4 seasons played, he ranks Top 5 in passing yards.

But do many people consider Flacco to be one of the best QBs in the history of the game?

 

[dgreen]

Brady's numbers are skewed by his awesomeness.

 

[parrot]

we'll see what Brady brings to the table against Ed Reed and the Ravens..last time they met in post season - 2009 - Brady had a 54.8 comp percentage, 2tds/3ints, 3.67 ypa, and a paltry 49.1 rating...

we're likely to see the same Brady this weekend...

The Patriots didn't have Welker in that game and obviously didn't have the two young TEs. He had Moss and Edelman. The pass rush didn't allow him to get deep to Moss, and while Edelman is a nice player, he ain't Welker underneath. Also their leading back that day was Kevin Faulk. This is a COMPLETELY different offense.

 

[David Yudkin]

we'll see what Brady brings to the table against Ed Reed and the Ravens..last time they met in post season - 2009 - Brady had a 54.8 comp percentage, 2tds/3ints, 3.67 ypa, and a paltry 49.1 rating...

we're likely to see the same Brady this weekend...

The Patriots didn't have Welker in that game and obviously didn't have the two young TEs. He had Moss and Edelman. The pass rush didn't allow him to get deep to Moss, and while Edelman is a nice player, he ain't Welker underneath. Also their leading back that day was Kevin Faulk. This is a COMPLETELY different offense.

I agree that comparing the 2011 Patriots team to the 2009 one makes very little sense.New England players that played in the 2009 playoff game and will be playing this weekend:

T Matt Light

G Logan Mankins

PK Stephen Gostkowski

DT Vince Wolfork

LB Jerod Mayo

QB Tom Brady

WR Julian Edelman (now a back up)

RB Kevin Faulk (now a back up)

C Dan Connolly (then a back up)

T Sebastian Vollmer (then a back up)

CB Kyle Arrington (then a back up)

S Pat Chung (then a back up)

DE Rob Ninkovich (then a back up)

WR (Matt Slater (back up)

G Ryan Wendell (back up)

New England players that played in the 2009 playoff game but are currently on IR:

C Dan Koppen

DT Mike Wright

DT Myron Pryor (back up)

New England players that did not play in the 2009 playoff game:

WR Wes Welker

RB BenJarvus Green-Ellis

New England players that were not on the team in 2009:

P Zoltan Mesko

T Nate Solder

G Brian Waters

TE Rob Gronkowski

TE Aaron Hernandez

WR Deion Branch

WR Chad Ochocinco

RB Danny Woodhead

RB Stevan Ridley

DE Shaun Ellis

DE Mark Anderson

DT Kyle Love

DT Brandon Deadrick

DT Gerard Warren

LB Brandon Spikes

LB Dane Flecther

CB Devin McCourty

S James Ihedigbo

S Sergio Brown

New England players that played in the 2009 playoff game no longer with the team:

T Nick Kaczur

G Stephen Neal

TE Chris Baker

LB Tully Banta-Cain

CB Leigh Bodden

DE Derrick Burgess

CB Darius Butler

WR Randy Moss

RB Sammy Morris

WR Sam Aiken

TE Ben Watson

RB Laurence Maroney

RB Fred Taylor

P Chris Hanson

S James Sanders

LB Adelius Thomas

DE Ty Warren

LB Gary Guyton

S Brandon Meriweather

LB Junior Seau

S Brandon McGowan

WR Brandon Tate

LB Pierre Woods

CB Shawn Springs

LB Eric Alexander

C Jake Ingram

T Mark LeVoir

Basically, the Patriots will be playing only 6 players that were starters in the 2009 playoff game with the Ravens. The huge majority of the team has been replaced. I don't see much relevance at this point in how that game will have any bearing on a team that has a roster of 80-90% different players.

 

[Bossman]

Brady is the best at what he does ... but I wouldn't go so far as to call him "the best of the best".

Brady is a system QB. He's the best at knowing where to go with the ball, either reading the d before the snap or progressing thru his reads quickly and finding the open guy. (which his predecessor, Bledsoe, was awful at). Short passes and tons of YAC are where most of his passing yards come from.

As a Pats homer, I feel Peyton Manning and even Brees are the better pure QB's. Able to throw the accurate deep ball consistently... which Brady doesn't seem to do very often. (could be because of his lack of speedy WR's .. or maybe because he just doesn't have to?)

Matt Cassel had success in the NE system the year Brady was on IR. He's not nearly as successful in the KC system.

 

[bostonfred]

Brady can certainly throw it deep, and often does when he has receivers to throw to. Its not just his deep balls to moss, his seam routes to gronk and hernandez are outstanding as well. Bradys deep ball needed work early in his career but he improved. He also didn't have to throw deep early, which makes his early productivity all the more impressive since he was often asked to control the clock for a more balanced team.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Basically, the Patriots will be playing only 6 players that were starters in the 2009 playoff game with the Ravens. The huge majority of the team has been replaced. I don't see much relevance at this point in how that game will have any bearing on a team that has a roster of 80-90% different players.

To save space I didn't want to quote the whole thing but that is an excellent post David, great info, ty for doing the heavy lifting. All that said, the Ravens are going to be wheeling out quite a lot of the same folks from 2009, the good players at any rate so I think the Ravens have an excellent chance to pull the upset again.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Is alex smith a better player because vernon davis held on to a ball in tight coverage with seconds left on the clock? No, he made the same throw regardless of what happened after it left his hand. But he put his teammate in a position to win the game, and his decisions and play on those final two drives were impeccable

That may be the truth of the matter, but it's typically not where perception falls. If Vernon Davis had dropped that ball and SF ended up losing there would be a huge contingent of people saying that Alex Smith is a choker, almost all of which would be the same people that right now think he's clutch.We see it everywhere. When Indy lost to Pitt in the playoffs in 2005 after Vanderjagt missed a 46 yard field goal Peyton was a choker for not getting Vanderjagt closer. Meanwhile, when Vinatieri nailed a 48 yard field goal to win the Super Bowl Brady was clutch to set up that 48 yard field goal. If Vinatieri misses those two FGs in those early Super Bowls and NE loses those games in OT without even getting the ball on offense then Brady's legacy is completely different even though he will have done absolutely nothing differently. He is the exact same player with the exact same performance either way, yet the perception of him is completely different.

Kurt Warner is another example of this. His ranking on the all-time best QBs list probably dropped 20 spots when Big Ben led Pittsburgh down the field for a last second touchdown against Arizona in the Super Bowl. If he doesn't do that than Warner tacks a game-winning drive in the Super Bowl against the #1 defense in the league onto his legacy. Instead, his spot on the all-time QB list was altered by 20 spots while he stood on the sidelines watching. He did nothing differently either way. As far as most people are concerned, Kurt Warner is 20 spots worse of a player because his stare from the sideline didn't stop the Pittsburgh offense in the last minute.

Meanwhile, where would Aaron Rodgers be right now if his defense didn't do what Warner's couldn't by stopping Big Ben in the last minute of the Super Bowl last year? Tack a Super Bowl loss onto this year's early exit despite a 15-1 record and Rodgers we'd see a big contingent of people saying that Rodgers is a choker that will never win the big one.

 

[David Yudkin]

Basically, the Patriots will be playing only 6 players that were starters in the 2009 playoff game with the Ravens. The huge majority of the team has been replaced. I don't see much relevance at this point in how that game will have any bearing on a team that has a roster of 80-90% different players.

To save space I didn't want to quote the whole thing but that is an excellent post David, great info, ty for doing the heavy lifting. All that said, the Ravens are going to be wheeling out quite a lot of the same folks from 2009, the good players at any rate so I think the Ravens have an excellent chance to pull the upset again.

All we can do at this point is guess what is going to happen, but looking back at the 2009 game . . .- The Pats had lost Wes Welker the week before, and he was the main cog in the offense at that point. - Laurence Maroney, the primary ball carrier getting 18-20 touches over a 2-month stretch, mysteriously got benched at the end of the season. He received 5 carries in Week 16, none in Week 17,and 1 carry in the playoff game with the Ravens. Maroney at that point was halfway out the door and ultimately was dumped on the Broncos.- With Sammy Morris and Fred Taylor aging and banged up, Kevin Faulk was the primary weapon for the Pats that game, garnering 20 touches and leading NE with a paltry 89 yards from scrimmage. That workload was FAR GREATER than any other game that year. The last time he had 20 touches in a game was 2003.- Randy Moss had already seen his numbers take a tumble and like Maroney was on his way out the door. He was down to an average of 3-4 catches a game and basically served as a red zone threat only. He was in the middle of what ended up as a 19-game string of games without a 100 yards receiving.- Joe Flacco racked up a total of THIRTY FOUR passing yards. I don't think I am going out on a limb by suggesting that the Ravens won't blow out the Pats again with Flacco throwing for 34 yards.Overall, the Pats had offensive issues in 2009 and were a fundamentally challenged team. Most of their tried and true defenders were gone and they were nowhere near a complete team and were rebuilding. I don't think that the 09 Patriots team in any way shape or form resembles the 11 Patriots team. The offense is way better and the defense is a fair amount worse. But both units are way healthier than they have been all year, and that will bolster the overall performance of NEw England.

 

[bostonfred]

Is alex smith a better player because vernon davis held on to a ball in tight coverage with seconds left on the clock? No, he made the same throw regardless of what happened after it left his hand. But he put his teammate in a position to win the game, and his decisions and play on those final two drives were impeccable

That may be the truth of the matter, but it's typically not where perception falls. If Vernon Davis had dropped that ball and SF ended up losing there would be a huge contingent of people saying that Alex Smith is a choker, almost all of which would be the same people that right now think he's clutch.We see it everywhere. When Indy lost to Pitt in the playoffs in 2005 after Vanderjagt missed a 46 yard field goal Peyton was a choker for not getting Vanderjagt closer. Meanwhile, when Vinatieri nailed a 48 yard field goal to win the Super Bowl Brady was clutch to set up that 48 yard field goal. If Vinatieri misses those two FGs in those early Super Bowls and NE loses those games in OT without even getting the ball on offense then Brady's legacy is completely different even though he will have done absolutely nothing differently. He is the exact same player with the exact same performance either way, yet the perception of him is completely different.

Kurt Warner is another example of this. His ranking on the all-time best QBs list probably dropped 20 spots when Big Ben led Pittsburgh down the field for a last second touchdown against Arizona in the Super Bowl. If he doesn't do that than Warner tacks a game-winning drive in the Super Bowl against the #1 defense in the league onto his legacy. Instead, his spot on the all-time QB list was altered by 20 spots while he stood on the sidelines watching. He did nothing differently either way. As far as most people are concerned, Kurt Warner is 20 spots worse of a player because his stare from the sideline didn't stop the Pittsburgh offense in the last minute.

Meanwhile, where would Aaron Rodgers be right now if his defense didn't do what Warner's couldn't by stopping Big Ben in the last minute of the Super Bowl last year? Tack a Super Bowl loss onto thiswan year's early exit despite a 15-1 record and Rodgers we'd see a big contingent of people saying that Rodgers is a choker that will never win the big one.

Sure, but my point is tnat some of that is deserved. Over a large enough sample size, vernon davis would make that catch, warner would withstand that comeback, and rodgers would beat big ben an appropriate number of times based on their skill. We talk about sample size as if it were a number of games, but each game is a series of opportunities for a player to make plays. There are a lot of dynamics involved - if your guard flinches, or your running back fumbles a handoff, or your receiver misreads the defense or bobbles a ball, you might not get enough opportunities to show how good you are. But the quarterback gets more opportunities than anyone on the field, and most qbs experience the same bad luck of false starts or needless turnovers at a similar rate.

Tom brady has played 1200 minutes of postseason football, mostly outdoors, all (by definition) against playoff caliber teams. In some cases, he was asked to win a shootout or lead a game winning drive. In others, he was asked to slow the game down to keep a high powered opponent in check. Sometimes his teammates have turned the ball over or kicked the ball well. But brady's performance, unlike many others, was good enough to win multiple championships, an unbelievable sixth afccg in ten years starting, and a chance to go to a fifth superbowl and possibly a fourth championship. Whether he had some good bounces from a lucky call in 2001 and some outstanding kicker play, or some bad bounces when his defense couldn't stop ray rice whatsoever and his offensive line couldn't slow down the giants four man rush, it all evens out over the course of his career. And at this point in his career, he appears to be one of the best, if not the best, ever.

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

Brady needs to not throw Ints against Baltimore. He doesn't need to go for 350 and 4 td's against Baltimore. He'll need to be more patient and more of a game manager than he has been recently.

If New England has a shot, their defense will have to play better than their ranking.

 

[ivnabru]

Brady needs to not throw Ints against Baltimore. He doesn't need to go for 350 and 4 td's against Baltimore. He'll need to be more patient and more of a game manager than he has been recently.If New England has a shot, their defense will have to play better than their ranking.

NE Offense 3 Defense 15Balt Offense 12 Defense 3Look pretty evenly matched by the rankings.

 

[cstu]

Is alex smith a better player because vernon davis held on to a ball in tight coverage with seconds left on the clock? No, he made the same throw regardless of what happened after it left his hand. But he put his teammate in a position to win the game, and his decisions and play on those final two drives were impeccable

That may be the truth of the matter, but it's typically not where perception falls. If Vernon Davis had dropped that ball and SF ended up losing there would be a huge contingent of people saying that Alex Smith is a choker, almost all of which would be the same people that right now think he's clutch.We see it everywhere. When Indy lost to Pitt in the playoffs in 2005 after Vanderjagt missed a 46 yard field goal Peyton was a choker for not getting Vanderjagt closer. Meanwhile, when Vinatieri nailed a 48 yard field goal to win the Super Bowl Brady was clutch to set up that 48 yard field goal. If Vinatieri misses those two FGs in those early Super Bowls and NE loses those games in OT without even getting the ball on offense then Brady's legacy is completely different even though he will have done absolutely nothing differently. He is the exact same player with the exact same performance either way, yet the perception of him is completely different.

Kurt Warner is another example of this. His ranking on the all-time best QBs list probably dropped 20 spots when Big Ben led Pittsburgh down the field for a last second touchdown against Arizona in the Super Bowl. If he doesn't do that than Warner tacks a game-winning drive in the Super Bowl against the #1 defense in the league onto his legacy. Instead, his spot on the all-time QB list was altered by 20 spots while he stood on the sidelines watching. He did nothing differently either way. As far as most people are concerned, Kurt Warner is 20 spots worse of a player because his stare from the sideline didn't stop the Pittsburgh offense in the last minute.

Meanwhile, where would Aaron Rodgers be right now if his defense didn't do what Warner's couldn't by stopping Big Ben in the last minute of the Super Bowl last year? Tack a Super Bowl loss onto thiswan year's early exit despite a 15-1 record and Rodgers we'd see a big contingent of people saying that Rodgers is a choker that will never win the big one.

Sure, but my point is tnat some of that is deserved. Over a large enough sample size, vernon davis would make that catch, warner would withstand that comeback, and rodgers would beat big ben an appropriate number of times based on their skill. We talk about sample size as if it were a number of games, but each game is a series of opportunities for a player to make plays. There are a lot of dynamics involved - if your guard flinches, or your running back fumbles a handoff, or your receiver misreads the defense or bobbles a ball, you might not get enough opportunities to show how good you are. But the quarterback gets more opportunities than anyone on the field, and most qbs experience the same bad luck of false starts or needless turnovers at a similar rate.

Tom brady has played 1200 minutes of postseason football, mostly outdoors, all (by definition) against playoff caliber teams. In some cases, he was asked to win a shootout or lead a game winning drive. In others, he was asked to slow the game down to keep a high powered opponent in check. Sometimes his teammates have turned the ball over or kicked the ball well. But brady's performance, unlike many others, was good enough to win multiple championships, an unbelievable sixth afccg in ten years starting, and a chance to go to a fifth superbowl and possibly a fourth championship. Whether he had some good bounces from a lucky call in 2001 and some outstanding kicker play, or some bad bounces when his defense couldn't stop ray rice whatsoever and his offensive line couldn't slow down the giants four man rush, it all evens out over the course of his career. And at this point in his career, he appears to be one of the best, if not the best, ever.

He's a great QB but he is only 6-5 in the playoffs since winning the Superbowl in 2004. He needs to win another SB before throwing around phrases like 'the best ever'.

 

[fantasizing]

I can see my original post has created quite the commotion.

Note that I meant, in my opinion, Tom Brady is the best QB of the last 10 years.

Many good arguments/stats all over the place here.

Well done! Keep them coming

 

[fantasizing]

Final regular season statistics:

D. Brees: 5,476 yards (NFL record, incredible), 46 TDs, 14 INTs

T. Brady: 5,235 yards, 39 TDs, 12 INTs

M. Stafford: 5,038 yards, 41 TDs, 16 INTs

E. Manning: 4,933 yards, 29 TDs, 15 INTs

A. Rodgers: 4,643 yards, 46 TDs, 6 INTs (incredible)

The statistics for D. Brees and A. Rodgers are nothing short of outstanding......

Yet, in the playoffs when it matters the most, they fall apart.

Speaks volumes.........

Who knows, maybe Alex Smith will be the superbowl winning QB in a few weeks...

 

[cstu]

I can see my original post has created quite the commotion.

Note that I meant, in my opinion, Tom Brady is the best QB of the last 10 years.

Many good arguments/stats all over the place here.

Well done! Keep them coming

I think Brady is the best since he entered the league, HOWEVER:Before being handed a gimme playoff game against the Broncos, Brady was only 5-5 in the playoffs since 2004.

In that time frame, Manning was 6-5 with the a SB win and loss - the same as Brady.

Brees is 5-3 and has a SB win.

 

[David Yudkin]

I think Brady is the best since he entered the league, HOWEVER:Before being handed a gimme playoff game against the Broncos, Brady was only 5-5 in the playoffs since 2004. In that time frame, Manning was 6-5 with the a SB win and loss - the same as Brady. Brees is 5-3 and has a SB win.

Wasn't PIT handed a gimme playoff game, too? I mean, there have been posts this week suggesting Roethlisberger and Brady are equals. Why were the Broncos a lay up for Brady but not Roethlisberger?Things get dicey when looking at a slice of a player's career. For example, PLAYER X went 0-3 in the playoffs over a 3-year period, posting passer ratings of 65, 34, and 42 in those games with 0 TD (and 2 games under 100 passing yards).Despite an average 11+ wins in those years, in those games, his team lost by an average score of 34-10. They were bounced from the playoffs after only one playoff game in each of those seasons.PLAYER X, of course, was Joe Montana and the team was the 49ers. They were coached by Bill Walsh with George Seifert and Mike Holmgren on the coaching staff and Jerry Rice, Roger Craig, Dwight Clark, John Taylor, Russ Francis, Brent Jones, Ronnie Lott, Dwight Hicks, Michael Carter, Randy Cross, and several other Pro Bowl players on the roster.If the same FBG posters had been around then, we would have seen the same types of posts about Montana as we see about Brady now . . . Montana can't win in the playoffs anymore. And I forget to mention that SF had Top 5 ranked offenses and defenses (if not Top 3) and Top 10 rushing teams (one year ranked #1) in all of those years.Compare that to Brady in recent seasons. He's had middle of the road running games and a defense that has ranked 25th and 31st the past two seasons. A QB can only do so much by himself. Posters would have had a better gripe over Montana not winning, as his teams were LOADED on both sides of the ball.The Pats put up better records the past few years than the Niners did with a lot less talent. Sure, the league is a lot different now and there likely is more parity, but even so winning 27 games with what could only be described as a poor defense and average running game the past two seasons is pretty impressive. The Pats haven't been doing it with a ton of uber talents and HOFs like Rice and Lott (or Craig going for 2,000 yards as a RB).Come playoff time, it usually takes a complete team to win (which will likely be the Pats undoing again this year), and as the Niners showed, even showcasing the best and most well rounded team still could get you nowhere some years.

 

[cstu]

Wasn't PIT handed a gimme playoff game, too? I mean, there have been posts this week suggesting Roethlisberger and Brady are equals. Why were the Broncos a lay up for Brady but not Roethlisberger?

The Broncos were at home vs. a gimpy Steelers team while Brady was at home. Even as a fan you have to admit the Broncos were an easy match up.

 

[cstu]

Compare that to Brady in recent seasons. He's had middle of the road running games and a defense that has ranked 25th and 31st the past two seasons. A QB can only do so much by himself. Posters would have had a better gripe over Montana not winning, as his teams were LOADED on both sides of the ball.

This is the first year since 2005 that the Pats haven't had a defense ranked 8th or better in points allowed since 2005 - and even then they were 15th.

 

[the moops]

He's a great QB but he is only 6-5 in the playoffs since winning the Superbowl in 2004. He needs to win another SB before throwing around phrases like 'the best ever'.

Isnt this like the whole "take away that RB's 45 yard TD run and he had a very average day" argument?

 

[dgreen]

He's a great QB but he is only 6-5 in the playoffs since winning the Superbowl in 2004. He needs to win another SB before throwing around phrases like 'the best ever'.

Isnt this like the whole "take away that RB's 45 yard TD run and he had a very average day" argument?

Joe Montana is 3-3 since his last SB. Loser.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Is alex smith a better player because vernon davis held on to a ball in tight coverage with seconds left on the clock? No, he made the same throw regardless of what happened after it left his hand. But he put his teammate in a position to win the game, and his decisions and play on those final two drives were impeccable

That may be the truth of the matter, but it's typically not where perception falls. If Vernon Davis had dropped that ball and SF ended up losing there would be a huge contingent of people saying that Alex Smith is a choker, almost all of which would be the same people that right now think he's clutch.We see it everywhere. When Indy lost to Pitt in the playoffs in 2005 after Vanderjagt missed a 46 yard field goal Peyton was a choker for not getting Vanderjagt closer. Meanwhile, when Vinatieri nailed a 48 yard field goal to win the Super Bowl Brady was clutch to set up that 48 yard field goal. If Vinatieri misses those two FGs in those early Super Bowls and NE loses those games in OT without even getting the ball on offense then Brady's legacy is completely different even though he will have done absolutely nothing differently. He is the exact same player with the exact same performance either way, yet the perception of him is completely different.

Kurt Warner is another example of this. His ranking on the all-time best QBs list probably dropped 20 spots when Big Ben led Pittsburgh down the field for a last second touchdown against Arizona in the Super Bowl. If he doesn't do that than Warner tacks a game-winning drive in the Super Bowl against the #1 defense in the league onto his legacy. Instead, his spot on the all-time QB list was altered by 20 spots while he stood on the sidelines watching. He did nothing differently either way. As far as most people are concerned, Kurt Warner is 20 spots worse of a player because his stare from the sideline didn't stop the Pittsburgh offense in the last minute.

Meanwhile, where would Aaron Rodgers be right now if his defense didn't do what Warner's couldn't by stopping Big Ben in the last minute of the Super Bowl last year? Tack a Super Bowl loss onto this year's early exit despite a 15-1 record and Rodgers we'd see a big contingent of people saying that Rodgers is a choker that will never win the big one.

This is a great post worthy of multiple s. And yesterday makes this post even more worthy of a bump. Brady played like crap, yet the Patriots eked out a win, and if they beat the Giants, all we will hear is how awesome Tom Brady is for tying Montana for Super Bowl wins, and most will forget his poor performance from yesterday. Meanwhile, just wait till next year: the minute Flacco struggles in a big moment again, we'll hear about how he never comes through when it counts, as if it is his fault that Evans dropped that pass and Cundiff blew a chip shot.

 

[DoubleG]

Is alex smith a better player because vernon davis held on to a ball in tight coverage with seconds left on the clock? No, he made the same throw regardless of what happened after it left his hand. But he put his teammate in a position to win the game, and his decisions and play on those final two drives were impeccable

That may be the truth of the matter, but it's typically not where perception falls. If Vernon Davis had dropped that ball and SF ended up losing there would be a huge contingent of people saying that Alex Smith is a choker, almost all of which would be the same people that right now think he's clutch.We see it everywhere. When Indy lost to Pitt in the playoffs in 2005 after Vanderjagt missed a 46 yard field goal Peyton was a choker for not getting Vanderjagt closer. Meanwhile, when Vinatieri nailed a 48 yard field goal to win the Super Bowl Brady was clutch to set up that 48 yard field goal. If Vinatieri misses those two FGs in those early Super Bowls and NE loses those games in OT without even getting the ball on offense then Brady's legacy is completely different even though he will have done absolutely nothing differently. He is the exact same player with the exact same performance either way, yet the perception of him is completely different.

Kurt Warner is another example of this. His ranking on the all-time best QBs list probably dropped 20 spots when Big Ben led Pittsburgh down the field for a last second touchdown against Arizona in the Super Bowl. If he doesn't do that than Warner tacks a game-winning drive in the Super Bowl against the #1 defense in the league onto his legacy. Instead, his spot on the all-time QB list was altered by 20 spots while he stood on the sidelines watching. He did nothing differently either way. As far as most people are concerned, Kurt Warner is 20 spots worse of a player because his stare from the sideline didn't stop the Pittsburgh offense in the last minute.

Meanwhile, where would Aaron Rodgers be right now if his defense didn't do what Warner's couldn't by stopping Big Ben in the last minute of the Super Bowl last year? Tack a Super Bowl loss onto this year's early exit despite a 15-1 record and Rodgers we'd see a big contingent of people saying that Rodgers is a choker that will never win the big one.

This is a great post worthy of multiple s. And yesterday makes this post even more worthy of a bump. Brady played like crap, yet the Patriots eked out a win, and if they beat the Giants, all we will hear is how awesome Tom Brady is for tying Montana for Super Bowl wins, and most will forget his poor performance from yesterday. Meanwhile, just wait till next year: the minute Flacco struggles in a big moment again, we'll hear about how he never comes through when it counts, as if it is his fault that Evans dropped that pass and Cundiff blew a chip shot.

(yours and the one you quoted)Proof that there is intelligent life in the pool after all.

 

[Kenny Powers]

Greatest QB ever just got outplayed by Joe Falco, and maybe the most surprising thing is everybody realizes/admits it

 

[bostonfred]

Im fine with saying that brady had a bad game yesterday, but his impact on the game was enormous. The pats were able to dictate the flow of the game, and they put together some crucial drives early to keep the ravens from repeating their last performance. Green ellis and co benefitted hugely when one of the historically great defenses in league history sold out to stop brady. I was happier with bradys performance against the ravens than I was against the broncos, where his sixth td was altogether unnecessary. Hard to get down on brady for leading the pats to almost exactly the score that everyone said they would get.

 

[David Yudkin]

Greatest QB ever just got outplayed by Joe Falco, and maybe the most surprising thing is everybody realizes/admits it

Including Brady.More surprising, Brady is still playing and Flacco is not. Funny thing is that sometimes there are other players on the field besides quarterbacks. Who knew?I would be shocked if the Pats stood a chance against the Giants if Brady has 0 TD and 2 INT against the Giants, but I also would be very surprised if Brady played the same way against New York as he did against Baltimore. The odd part might be that Brady could go for 350 yds and 3 TD . . . and still lose.

 

[roadkill1292]

Im fine with saying that brady had a bad game yesterday, but his impact on the game was enormous. The pats were able to dictate the flow of the game, and they put together some crucial drives early to keep the ravens from repeating their last performance. Green ellis and co benefitted hugely when one of the historically great defenses in league history sold out to stop brady. I was happier with bradys performance against the ravens than I was against the broncos, where his sixth td was altogether unnecessary. Hard to get down on brady for leading the pats to almost exactly the score that everyone said they would get.

His expertise certainly opened up avenues for the Pats' surprisingly successful running game and that shouldn't go unacknowledged. Peyton Manning has done much the same kind of thing to the Ravens in years past, dominating the game with his presence even if his numbers don't make it appear that he has done so.

 

[chidoy]

5 friggin Superbowls... FIVE...

IMO.... It don't matter how he got there.... In this day of age with free agency, salary caps, holdouts, trades, CBA's, etc...... 5 Superbowls in that span of time is INSANE.

I can throw out stats and numbers in favor or against Peyton, Brees, Arod, etc.... but when it comes down to it, Brady is going to his 5th Superbowl and might win his 4th ring!

 

[DoubleG]

Greatest QB ever just got outplayed by Joe Falco, and maybe the most surprising thing is everybody realizes/admits it

Including Brady.More surprising, Brady is still playing and Flacco is not. Funny thing is that sometimes there are other players on the field besides quarterbacks. Who knew?

Ummmmm....your tone here is noticeably different than in the "If the Pats win SB, is Brady GOAT?" poll/thread.Note to self: even staffers become irrational when talking about their hometown teams/guys.

 

[David Yudkin]

Greatest QB ever just got outplayed by Joe Falco, and maybe the most surprising thing is everybody realizes/admits it

Including Brady.More surprising, Brady is still playing and Flacco is not. Funny thing is that sometimes there are other players on the field besides quarterbacks. Who knew?

Ummmmm....your tone here is noticeably different than in the "If the Pats win SB, is Brady GOAT?" poll/thread.Note to self: even staffers become irrational when talking about their hometown teams/guys.

As I mentioned in the other thread, I don't think Brady is the GOAT, but compared to his current peers he has the best resume across all the various points of comparison. From this generation, I think Peyton is a better overall passer but has slightly less to offer in the SB department.I doubt many people would say Brady had a great game against the Ravens. But as mentioned mant times, it's a team game and his team is still playing. Lots of QBs have had meh games in the post season, so Brady still gets credit for being on the winning team without bringing his "A" game.

 

[Run It Up]

Greatest QB ever just got outplayed by Joe Falco, and maybe the most surprising thing is everybody realizes/admits it

Kenny, think about what you just said - logically.Now reflect on why it could possibly be the dumbest thing you've ever posted.Brady played like crap (against the 3rd overall defense in the NFL) and it wasnt enough for them to lose the game, Flacco played better than ive ever seen since being in the league (against the 31st overall defense in the NFL) and it wasnt enough for them to win the game.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Greatest QB ever just got outplayed by Joe Falco, and maybe the most surprising thing is everybody realizes/admits it

Being the greatest, or one of the greatest, doesn't mean you are gonna be the best QB in every game. That is an impossible standard to live up to.

 

[Phlash]

Greatest QB ever just got outplayed by Joe Falco, and maybe the most surprising thing is everybody realizes/admits it

Kenny, think about what you just said - logically.Now reflect on why it could possibly be the dumbest thing you've ever posted.Brady played like crap (against the 3rd overall defense in the NFL) and it wasnt enough for them to lose the game, Flacco played better than ive ever seen since being in the league (against the 31st overall defense in the NFL) and it wasnt enough for them to win the game.

Yeah, Brady had bad numbers and Joe Flacco had good numbers but just WATCHING those two play told a vastly different story.Brady had 2 terrible tipped passes. One of them was probably the worst playcall I've ever seen in my life. Neither of them were his fault at all.Flacco had 2 passing TDs. One came on a play where Torrey Smith was flagrantly face-masking Devin McCourty and the other was an actual nice pass. I'll give him 1 legit one.Flacco LOOKED scared that game. Sure, he was heaving bombs at times, but he looked like he was feeling pressure that first half. He calmed down after a bit, but Brady was calm the whole game.Numbers wise they were different QBs. Play wise, though, Brady was fine.

 

[ivnabru]

Greatest QB ever just got outplayed by Joe Falco, and maybe the most surprising thing is everybody realizes/admits it

Kenny, think about what you just said - logically.Now reflect on why it could possibly be the dumbest thing you've ever posted.

Brady played like crap (against the 3rd overall defense in the NFL) and it wasnt enough for them to lose the game, Flacco played better than ive ever seen since being in the league (against the 31st overall defense in the NFL) and it wasnt enough for them to win the game.

Yeah, Brady had bad numbers and Joe Flacco had good numbers but just WATCHING those two play told a vastly different story.Brady had 2 terrible tipped passes. One of them was probably the worst playcall I've ever seen in my life. Neither of them were his fault at all.

Flacco had 2 passing TDs. One came on a play where Torrey Smith was flagrantly face-masking Devin McCourty and the other was an actual nice pass. I'll give him 1 legit one.

Flacco LOOKED scared that game. Sure, he was heaving bombs at times, but he looked like he was feeling pressure that first half. He calmed down after a bit, but Brady was calm the whole game.

Numbers wise they were different QBs. Play wise, though, Brady was fine.

It's too bad Brady isn't allowed to throw to his 2nd option.

 

[DoubleG]

Greatest QB ever just got outplayed by Joe Falco, and maybe the most surprising thing is everybody realizes/admits it

Kenny, think about what you just said - logically.Now reflect on why it could possibly be the dumbest thing you've ever posted.

Brady played like crap (against the 3rd overall defense in the NFL) and it wasnt enough for them to lose the game, Flacco played better than ive ever seen since being in the league (against the 31st overall defense in the NFL) and it wasnt enough for them to win the game.

Yeah, Brady had bad numbers and Joe Flacco had good numbers but just WATCHING those two play told a vastly different story.Brady had 2 terrible tipped passes. One of them was probably the worst playcall I've ever seen in my life. Neither of them were his fault at all.

Flacco had 2 passing TDs. One came on a play where Torrey Smith was flagrantly face-masking Devin McCourty and the other was an actual nice pass. I'll give him 1 legit one.

Flacco LOOKED scared that game. Sure, he was heaving bombs at times, but he looked like he was feeling pressure that first half. He calmed down after a bit, but Brady was calm the whole game.

Numbers wise they were different QBs. Play wise, though, Brady was fine.

The bolded is what I saw as well. Their onfield demeanor was much different than there stat lines.But all this who won/who lost is somewhat silly. If Cundiff doesn't miss a very makeable FG and the Ravens do go on to win, many would be harping about how Brady cost his team the game. But the Pats eeked it out, so Brady somehow gets credit for a win - and Flacco a loss.

 

[Run It Up]

Flacco LOOKED scared that game. Sure, he was heaving bombs at times, but he looked like he was feeling pressure that first half. He calmed down after a bit, but Brady was calm the whole game.Numbers wise they were different QBs. Play wise, though, Brady was fine.

I saw it as well, it was still the best I had seen him play. He had a reason to be playing scared, the Pats front 7 were on their A game.

 

[bostonfred]

Greatest QB ever just got outplayed by Joe Falco, and maybe the most surprising thing is everybody realizes/admits it

Kenny, think about what you just said - logically.Now reflect on why it could possibly be the dumbest thing you've ever posted.

Brady played like crap (against the 3rd overall defense in the NFL) and it wasnt enough for them to lose the game, Flacco played better than ive ever seen since being in the league (against the 31st overall defense in the NFL) and it wasnt enough for them to win the game.

Yeah, Brady had bad numbers and Joe Flacco had good numbers but just WATCHING those two play told a vastly different story.Brady had 2 terrible tipped passes. One of them was probably the worst playcall I've ever seen in my life. Neither of them were his fault at all.

Flacco had 2 passing TDs. One came on a play where Torrey Smith was flagrantly face-masking Devin McCourty and the other was an actual nice pass. I'll give him 1 legit one.

Flacco LOOKED scared that game. Sure, he was heaving bombs at times, but he looked like he was feeling pressure that first half. He calmed down after a bit, but Brady was calm the whole game.

Numbers wise they were different QBs. Play wise, though, Brady was fine.

The bolded is what I saw as well. Their onfield demeanor was much different than there stat lines.But all this who won/who lost is somewhat silly. If Cundiff doesn't miss a very makeable FG and the Ravens do go on to win, many would be harping about how Brady cost his team the game. But the Pats eeked it out, so Brady somehow gets credit for a win - and Flacco a loss.

Not just the field goal. Over the course of any game, there are dozens of opprtunities for weird bounces like that. If one or two earlier bounces go the pats' way, they win handily as the ravens are forced to press. If the ravens get up early, the pats could easily have seen a repeat of their last matchup. Things don't always work out on every play, but over the course of the game, the more skilled player will make more positive plays than the less skilled player. 60 minutes isn't enough time to negate all the luck, but in 1200 minutes of postseason football, brady has played well enough to win 15 of 20 including some close games like the tyree catch or the tuck rule. It evens out over time.

Saying that brady benefitted from luck on any one play is disingenuous. He survived the initial onslaught from a great defense, went toe to toe with a good qb while his mediocre defense let up some first half points, and he put them in position to win yet again. It might not sound like much, but if it were easy, everyone would be doing it.

 

[Kenny Powers]

Greatest QB ever just got outplayed by Joe Falco, and maybe the most surprising thing is everybody realizes/admits it

Kenny, think about what you just said - logically.Now reflect on why it could possibly be the dumbest thing you've ever posted.Brady played like crap (against the 3rd overall defense in the NFL) and it wasnt enough for them to lose the game, Flacco played better than ive ever seen since being in the league (against the 31st overall defense in the NFL) and it wasnt enough for them to win the game.

First, I posted that half jokingly. Second, I think Flacco is the epitome of an average NFL QB, but clearly you havent seen many of his games if you think thats his best game evah. He had a good game, but I was shocked that his comp % was over 60% and he ended up with over 300 yards. I would say he did extremely well considering how much pressure he was under, but it wasnt the best game he's ever played. Hard to say that when he lost as well, just like its hard to give Brady a lot of credit for getting the Patsies to the SB after his game.

 

[Run It Up]

Greatest QB ever just got outplayed by Joe Falco, and maybe the most surprising thing is everybody realizes/admits it

Kenny, think about what you just said - logically.Now reflect on why it could possibly be the dumbest thing you've ever posted.

Brady played like crap (against the 3rd overall defense in the NFL) and it wasnt enough for them to lose the game, Flacco played better than ive ever seen since being in the league (against the 31st overall defense in the NFL) and it wasnt enough for them to win the game.

First, I posted that half jokingly. Second, I think Flacco is the epitome of an average NFL QB, but clearly you havent seen many of his games if you think thats his best game evah. He had a good game, but I was shocked that his comp % was over 60% and he ended up with over 300 yards. I would say he did extremely well considering how much pressure he was under, but it wasnt the best game he's ever played. Hard to say that when he lost as well, just like its hard to give Brady a lot of credit for getting the Patsies to the SB after his game.

Ive owned Flacco in my two main leagues for the last 3 years and its been a terrible experience, I can safely say its the best ive ever seen him play.

 

[Donnybrook]

Greatest QB ever just got outplayed by Joe Falco, and maybe the most surprising thing is everybody realizes/admits it

Kenny, think about what you just said - logically.Now reflect on why it could possibly be the dumbest thing you've ever posted.

Brady played like crap (against the 3rd overall defense in the NFL) and it wasnt enough for them to lose the game, Flacco played better than ive ever seen since being in the league (against the 31st overall defense in the NFL) and it wasnt enough for them to win the game.

Yeah, Brady had bad numbers and Joe Flacco had good numbers but just WATCHING those two play told a vastly different story.Brady had 2 terrible tipped passes. One of them was probably the worst playcall I've ever seen in my life. Neither of them were his fault at all.

Flacco had 2 passing TDs. One came on a play where Torrey Smith was flagrantly face-masking Devin McCourty and the other was an actual nice pass. I'll give him 1 legit one.

Flacco LOOKED scared that game. Sure, he was heaving bombs at times, but he looked like he was feeling pressure that first half. He calmed down after a bit, but Brady was calm the whole game.

Numbers wise they were different QBs. Play wise, though, Brady was fine.

You can't be serious. What game were you watching?

 

[Tanner9919]

If Eli has beaten him twice in four years shouldnt that then make Manning the best ever????

Brady hasnt won anything since spygate..BB has won SB's with Parcells' guys. Brady gets rattled like no one ever has...Montana never got rattled.Eli never does, neither did Elway...or Big Ben..

Brady takes it on the chin for this one.costly INT...inability to win the big one sans cheating.face it..

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

Stats and Tds mean nothing anymore. Stafford was 5000 yards and 41 tds in his first full seadon in the NFL.

Qbs are measured in SB wins and losses.

Brady is one game over .500, although there's no denying he's great, you couldn't give him the title as greatest ever.

Montana is the greatest QB if all time. I can still see his arms go straight up after a Td pass to beat you. That guy was a cold blooded killer.

 

[Ghost Rider]

If Eli has beaten him twice in four years shouldnt that then make Manning the best ever????Brady hasnt won anything since spygate..BB has won SB's with Parcells' guys. Brady gets rattled like no one ever has...Montana never got rattled.Eli never does, neither did Elway...or Big Ben..Brady takes it on the chin for this one.costly INT...inability to win the big one sans cheating.face it..

LOL.

 

[nxmehta]

Stats and Tds mean nothing anymore. Stafford was 5000 yards and 41 tds in his first full seadon in the NFL.

Qbs are measured in SB wins and losses.

Brady is one game over .500, although there's no denying he's great, you couldn't give him the title as greatest ever.

Montana is the greatest QB if all time. I can still see his arms go straight up after a Td pass to beat you. That guy was a cold blooded killer.

If that's the case then let me introduce you to the greatest QB of all time.

 

[Tau837]

Stats and Tds mean nothing anymore. Stafford was 5000 yards and 41 tds in his first full seadon in the NFL.

Qbs are measured in SB wins and losses.

Brady is one game over .500, although there's no denying he's great, you couldn't give him the title as greatest ever.

Montana is the greatest QB if all time. I can still see his arms go straight up after a Td pass to beat you. That guy was a cold blooded killer.

If that's the case then let me introduce you to the greatest QB of all time.

Pretty sure Otto Graham never played in a Super Bowl.

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

It's possible NX.

It's hard to rank some of the old time greats due to the game changing so much. Whether it's fair or not, I think most fans rank teams and players in the SB era, I guess that's how big the SB has become, that championships before them didn't even count, like preseason games. I know here in Detroit we don't talk about Championships won in the 50s with Bobby Lane, we talk about zero SB appearances and only 1 playoff win in franchise history.

I'm not going to be the one to say Graham isn't the best but in the SB era, Montana is the greatest QB.

 

[TBIST]

Tom Brady is the worst QB in the league when he's pressured. He gets rattled so easily, he's lucky his offensive line is the greatest in the league.

 

[5Rings]

Joe would have won today's game. No shame in Tommie's game, though. Top 10 all-time hands down, and a first ballot HOF.