parrot
Footballguy
Of course they are. But at least a couple of Wilbon's statements were in reference to attempting to take out Brady in response to a blowout, not as a strategic way to help you win the game. There's a big difference there.
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Wilbon Advocates Intentionally Injuring Brady (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter tombonneau
- Start date
Ah, not exactly. More like the next guy up gets some chin music.BTW, Dex, condoning dirty and illegal play is not something to beat your chest over. Albeit, that would be in line with Dex's personality - coked out or not.
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SharkBait
Footballguy
Capella
Footballguy
This is actually the best point here. At some point somebody is going to reason that taking him out of the game is the only chance to beat them. Seeing as how you can't even get a lick on the guy though, it would probably have to be an extraordinarily late hit.
If you are trying to win the game, you take your shot at Brady early in the game. Not necessarily to take him out of the game, but to put it in the back of his mind that he is going to take some tough shots. If that means taking a few late hit penalties, then so be it. I would definitely trade a 1st quarter score for some happy feet and quick throws later in the game.It is all a mind game - that is what the Patriots are doing now. They are not running up the score to embarrass the other team, they are doing it to send a message to their next opponents. They want their opponents to be in awe before the game even starts. If you pop Brady in the mouth a few times, the aura wears off a little bit, and then you get a game. Otehrwise, most teams have a "defeated" mindset before the opening kick-off.Having said that, obtw, the Patriots are very good. Knocking Brady around might not help unless he is watching from the sidelines.
sholditch
Footballguy
Wilbon is an idiot. That's not a matter of debate. His comments are ones that would only come from an idiot who substitutes strong opinions for actually knowing anything about what he's talking about (ie Kronheiser, Cowherd). That shouldn't be a matter of debate even though it apparently is. What I can't beleive being a debate, however, is this sense that somehow one team owes something to its opponent. That is total BS. If Bellichik doesn't think he has anything to gain from benching a player, then why should he? That should be the only reason a coach ever considers taking out one of his starters if they aren't playing hurt. And this is coming from a UGA fan that had to watch Spurrier throw for a last second TD instead of taking a knee up by 35 many, many times. Did I fault him for it? No, it's a game and the point is to score points against your opponent. I faulted our program for not being able to stop him. And that's college, where words like class and gamesmanship actually have a place in the discussion. This is the NFL, where those words are basically meaningless.
As one of the quoted posters pointed out, Washington is a professional team that pays it players millions of dollars. Furthermore, they boasted one of the toughest, best secondaries in the NFL. Then, when they get exposed, they whine about their opponent not having class. I watched the game and it was awful. The Redskins looked helpless. NE moved the ball at will wiithout even really trying. IF your opponent puts up zero resistance, what are the Pats supposed to do? Drive down the field and kick a field goal on first down? Tell the opposing DC their play calls? Intentionally fumble?
Regardless of the score, both teams should compete to the best of their ability until the game ends. If a coach wants to pull his players and protect them because he thinks it benefits his team, fine. If he wants to keep them in and get them more PT, or get them more convinced of their own dominance, or for whatever reason, that's his right to do so. And if the opposing coach can't stop them at any point, then the opposing coach isn't doing his job.
Sometimes, your getting beat, and there's nothing you can do about it. Georgia was basically in that situation for 12 years. But did anyone hear Jim Donnan, or Mark Richt call out Spurrier? No. You take your lumps, and do what you have to do better. You may not be able to do anything to prevent a 43-point loss, but you can sure as hell make sure you don't look like some whiney crybaby afterwards.
As one of the quoted posters pointed out, Washington is a professional team that pays it players millions of dollars. Furthermore, they boasted one of the toughest, best secondaries in the NFL. Then, when they get exposed, they whine about their opponent not having class. I watched the game and it was awful. The Redskins looked helpless. NE moved the ball at will wiithout even really trying. IF your opponent puts up zero resistance, what are the Pats supposed to do? Drive down the field and kick a field goal on first down? Tell the opposing DC their play calls? Intentionally fumble?
Regardless of the score, both teams should compete to the best of their ability until the game ends. If a coach wants to pull his players and protect them because he thinks it benefits his team, fine. If he wants to keep them in and get them more PT, or get them more convinced of their own dominance, or for whatever reason, that's his right to do so. And if the opposing coach can't stop them at any point, then the opposing coach isn't doing his job.
Sometimes, your getting beat, and there's nothing you can do about it. Georgia was basically in that situation for 12 years. But did anyone hear Jim Donnan, or Mark Richt call out Spurrier? No. You take your lumps, and do what you have to do better. You may not be able to do anything to prevent a 43-point loss, but you can sure as hell make sure you don't look like some whiney crybaby afterwards.
BusterTBronco
Footballguy
Poor baby. Are you wetting yourself? Maybe it is time for you to be changed!
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
What do you think Belichick would do if he saw Tony Dungy videotaping the Patriots sidelines this weekend? Do nothing, right? Belichick has always held back in his pursuit of winning games.
redman
Footballguy
Wilbon's been in D.C. for a while, but his Chicago roots come out pretty readily. He's fairly neutral about the Redskins all in all.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
The Pats don't really need to trade for 1st quarter scores these days.
buster c
Footballguy
other than Randall Godfrey - who should be cut - who on the Redskins is whining? Did you hear the head coach's comments? so ease up on the misinformation.and learn one thing: you can say 'it's not up for debate' a dozen times, but you're fooling yourself if you believe that about anything.
now get back to your 8th grade math homework
Ron_Mexico
I Love Doggies
What a joke.When the Rams and the "Greatest Show on Turf"were running it up whenever possible, no one seemed to care.
sholditch
Footballguy
whoever said it should just shut up. I know Gibbs didn't say anything because he's an old-school guy and knows stuff like that. My post was more directed at whiney fans who have taken up the "classless" label because they got hammered. They need to #### and accept the fact that the Patriots are now their daddy. Just like any team who plays the Pats.
The only thing I said wasn't a matter of debate was Wilbon being an idiot. The stupid insult at the end really wasn't necessary.
The only thing I said wasn't a matter of debate was Wilbon being an idiot. The stupid insult at the end really wasn't necessary.
tombonneau
Footballguy
Actually, the comments were exactly in context, but that's besides the point.I agree that ESPN won't see his comments as a "big deal whatsoever"; however, I'm sure his editors at a publication as august as the Washington Post will have more than a few words with him.
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JamesTheScot
Footballguy
I can't whip the guy I'm facing across the line of scrimmage with enough regularity to prevent his team from dropping 50 on me so I'm going to take a cheap shot at his QB. Real tough guy, huh.a.k.a. "I suck, you exposed me, now everyone knows, you gotta pay."I have no problem with anything he said. Going for the knees or trying to deliver a hit that could end his career?
Milwalkeysbeast
Footballguy
I have no problems with those statements. NFl is turning into a "pretty" game.
sholditch
Footballguy
And when Payton was going for the TD record, they all screamed with delight for it. How is this different? Maybe they are going for most points in a season by one team (hell, they might already have it).
buster c
Footballguy
hey man, sorry for the cheap shot. but you gotta understand that there are many many people who actually like Wilbon. like your ol' pal buster. so it's entirely debatable. in fact, I'd say there is probably just one thing that is NOT debatable...that there is anything not debatable!
twitch
Footballguy
Dude, we both know he'd be smart enough to have an answer to that. But do I think he'd have NFL officials ready and waiting there on the spot to make a huge public spectacle out of it? We both know the answer to that question. Mangini is cheese. He stabbed the back of the very person that put him in his current position. Its not as if NE needed him. They have not missed that guy one bit. Im sure youre not going to argue that. He's getting what he deserves. This was a 10-6 team that's slid to 1-7. Give me the specific breakdowns of that collapse.
Bizkiteer
Footballguy
LOL @ anyone bashing Wilbon for saying what others are thinking. He is being realist in that if he had some say so, that is what he would do. He's not saying that it's alright, but it's the nature of things. Players celebrating on a TD, when they are up 40+ pts is the classless part. Not the score, their actions...the nature of things is...someone is going to take exception to it. As men of a violent sport, their response is usually with violence.
What comes around goes around!
What comes around goes around!
"Dude, you have to give me time to guess. If you're going to quiz me, you have to insert a pause." -- Mitch Hedberg
AnonymousBob
Footballguy
The Patriots exposed the Redskins. Repeatedly. Then they continued to play the game of football as though they were playing a Madden video game. The Patriots have every right to score as much as they can. When they're up by numerous scores in the fourth quarter and still passing the ball on nearly every down, what is that trying to show? How great they are? They're trying to intimidate next week's opponent? They blew out the Redskins but continued to play as though they were losing and were desperately playing catchup.I can't whip the guy I'm facing across the line of scrimmage with enough regularity to prevent his team from dropping 50 on me so I'm going to take a cheap shot at his QB. Real tough guy, huh.a.k.a. "I suck, you exposed me, now everyone knows, you gotta pay."I have no problem with anything he said. Going for the knees or trying to deliver a hit that could end his career?Short of that, if they're running up the score on you I have no problem with someone delivering some nasty blows.
Again-they have every right to score as much as possible. Just don't be surprised when the opposing team takes offense to being insulted.
It's one thing to destroy your opponent-the Patriots are to be commended for doing that. It's another to pile on needlessly. Up by two scores? Heck, go for more points-that lead isn't bulletproof. Up by five or more scores in the fourth quarter? Give it up, you're not going to lose.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Belichick would absolutely have NFL officials ready and waiting.
if you think Belichick would see another coach stealing his signs and say "aw shucks, oh well."
King of the Wolfies
Footballguy
I was watching one of the NFL talk shows yesterday and they were getting kinda upset with the Pats. These were ex players and they were saying that the unwritten rule is to never embarrass your opponent by running up the score late in the game when the outcome is no longer in doubt. Up 31-0 4th qtr, its ok to leave your players in but to be throwing bombs is disrespectful.
If they did that to my team, I'd put all 11 guys on the line and fine any of my players that didnt hit Brady each turn. If the TD record is that important to him, let him have his 10 TDs against me, but my guys are gonna knock his teeth down his throat and I'm going to pay the fines for the late hits.
Its called sportsmanship, and if you are gonna ignore the unwritten rules, I'm going to ignore ALL the rules.
If they did that to my team, I'd put all 11 guys on the line and fine any of my players that didnt hit Brady each turn. If the TD record is that important to him, let him have his 10 TDs against me, but my guys are gonna knock his teeth down his throat and I'm going to pay the fines for the late hits.
Its called sportsmanship, and if you are gonna ignore the unwritten rules, I'm going to ignore ALL the rules.
twitch
Footballguy
No. He's been around too long. And he knows others do it. Or have done it. After hearing what Parcells and Jimmy Johnson said on the subject, I realized it wasnt so uncommon. Its completely hypothetical speculation, so I realize you cant really be wrong, but it wouldnt happen. These tapings are things that other coaches have acknowledged exist. So a youngster with his chest puffed out like Mangini thinks he's got everything figured out tries to right the world by doing it, Im going to think an old dog like BB, who's been in the league for 32 years coaching would do the same? He's earned his stripes. He didnt get a job handed to him because his former employer was a brilliant man. I think we all recognize at this point who the brilliant man is. BB knows how things are done. You can think as lowly of him as you choose, but you dont get to his point in the NFL by throwing people under the bus. he's got the respect of alot of people in the league. Im not saying he's loved by them. But respected. How many admirers are we going to kid ourselves into thinking Eric Mangini has? Not many.Chase Stuart said:Belichick would absolutely have NFL officials ready and waiting.twitch said:if you think Belichick would see another coach stealing his signs and say "aw shucks, oh well."
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Judge Smails
Footballguy
If Charles Barkley said this no one would blink. He says what everyone else is thinking but doesn't have the balls to say. I applaud Wilbon, even if he backtracked like a crab afterwards. Now, if would have said taking a shot at his knee from the blind side - that's one thing. I disagree with that. But do I also agree that a message needs to be sent to the arrogant Patriots? Absolutely. A late, late knockout type hard hit to the back would do the trick. Must be in the 4th quarter when they are up 40+ points though after he drops back to pass. And based on these boards, I think you could easily find 100,000 people to kick in a buck each to pay for the fine. My check is in the mail.
tombonneau
Footballguy
The mindless trolls that have cropped up in the pool to spout their hatred I don't mind so much. But when posters like you, Judge, and MoP, who I respect and have interacted with for years on these boards join in, it kind of stinks.
/sanctimonyAGREE!It is the truth. Someone is going to take a cheap shot on Brady. I remember when that dude on the Packers ended McMahon's career with that super late body slam. As sad as it is - that pretty much ended the domination of the Bears.
This happens in hockey all the time.
If you get your stick up, get busy with the stick work, a really really big guy is going to come and punch you in the face. That's just how it works.
If I was the Skins, I would have blitzed his blindside ever play. And I would have taken a few 15 yard penalties. They were trying to run it up. And they should have been showed that there is a price for that. And it's getting hit, a lot, and sometimes illegally.
Anyone who gets offended at this is a woman or a guy with way too much time on his hands.
If you get your stick up, get busy with the stick work, a really really big guy is going to come and punch you in the face. That's just how it works.
If I was the Skins, I would have blitzed his blindside ever play. And I would have taken a few 15 yard penalties. They were trying to run it up. And they should have been showed that there is a price for that. And it's getting hit, a lot, and sometimes illegally.
Anyone who gets offended at this is a woman or a guy with way too much time on his hands.
tombonneau
Footballguy
AnonymousBob
Footballguy
Perhaps the fact posters you respect are saying this should be done should cause you to rethink your stance?The mindless trolls that have cropped up in the pool to spout their hatred I don't mind so much. But when posters like you, Judge, and MoP, who I respect and have interacted with for years on these boards join in, it kind of stinks./sanctimony
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Good post. I am surprised that you are surprised that columnists are speaking out against the Pats...they ran the score up. As I said I have no problem with that but these kinds of posts, articles, reports are going to happen. Wilbon perhaps crossed a line but Stink on the NFL Live show on ESPN was basically saying the same exact thing in a roundabout way. I don't think team are going to take cheap shots but I do think they are going to have to start apllying some extreme pressure. Not sure Indy can do it or not but I do think Blittsburgh will have some very interesting schemes for NE in a few weeks.tombonneau said:Ministry of Pain said:
buster c
Footballguy
"As you sow so shall you reap" this is the Law of Karma. but I hate to mess with an actual FBG Buddhist
tombonneau
Footballguy
I see people over and over again saying that the way to beat NE is blitzing, and for some reason it's a common misconception.Some Boston beat writer is keeping track of Brady's rating vs. the blitz and right now it's something like 140.On the contrary, the way to beat Brady & the Pats (same as Manning & Colts) is to get pressure with the front 4 and drop 7 into coverage. That is the only way to consistently beat either of these guys.Exotic blitz packages are nice and might work for a time early, but both teams' coaching staffs are too smart & will make adjustments.But if you can consistently get pressure with the front 4, it forces them to keep a TE and/or RB in there to chip or give some extra help and there's 1 or 2 fewer receiving options and 1 or 2 extra defenders. Math doesn't get any easier than that.To that end, one team that matches up well with both is the NYG with two stud pass rushers.Good post. I am surprised that you are surprised that columnists are speaking out against the Pats...they ran the score up. As I said I have no problem with that but these kinds of posts, articles, reports are going to happen. Wilbon perhaps crossed a line but Stink on the NFL Live show on ESPN was basically saying the same exact thing in a roundabout way. I don't think team are going to take cheap shots but I do think they are going to have to start apllying some extreme pressure. Not sure Indy can do it or not but I do think Blittsburgh will have some very interesting schemes for NE in a few weeks.tombonneau said:Ministry of Pain said:
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Accessory to criminal negligence?
redman
Footballguy
ChrisHenrysDD
Footballguy
This whole situation is really weird.
On one hand we have paste-eaters advocating, and in some cases even hoping for, a career ending injury to Brady. This is horribly childish.
On the other hand we have (mostly) pompous Patriots fans who are convinced that, for some reason, the Patriots are exempt from suffering repercussions from refusing to display any scrap of professional decency(blatantly running the score up). And that if someone on the defense were to take offense to it and knock Brady's block off, that this would be unprecedented in sports history.
I'm glad that in fantasy land, where you are the star defensive player for an NFL team, you don't have a problem with a team running up the score on you. The fact is that you don't know how it feels to be on national TV getting your brains beaten in. Nobody here does. I don't know how I'd feel if someone was telling the whole nation that I am terrible and hopelessly outclassed at my job, my life, and my passion. Most likely I'd be angry about it.
Here's how I see it. If they want to keep Brady in for the fourth quarter when everybody but Belicheck and Patriots fans are well aware that the game is over, that's fine. I just think a team with a mean defense with a few questionable character guys(*cough* Baltimore *cough*) might take exception to Brady winging it all over the field after I've already started subbing out some defensive players like Washington did last week. This is not about right or wrong. This is not about karma. This is about how it is, how it has always been, and will always be.
On one hand we have paste-eaters advocating, and in some cases even hoping for, a career ending injury to Brady. This is horribly childish.
On the other hand we have (mostly) pompous Patriots fans who are convinced that, for some reason, the Patriots are exempt from suffering repercussions from refusing to display any scrap of professional decency(blatantly running the score up). And that if someone on the defense were to take offense to it and knock Brady's block off, that this would be unprecedented in sports history.
I'm glad that in fantasy land, where you are the star defensive player for an NFL team, you don't have a problem with a team running up the score on you. The fact is that you don't know how it feels to be on national TV getting your brains beaten in. Nobody here does. I don't know how I'd feel if someone was telling the whole nation that I am terrible and hopelessly outclassed at my job, my life, and my passion. Most likely I'd be angry about it.
Here's how I see it. If they want to keep Brady in for the fourth quarter when everybody but Belicheck and Patriots fans are well aware that the game is over, that's fine. I just think a team with a mean defense with a few questionable character guys(*cough* Baltimore *cough*) might take exception to Brady winging it all over the field after I've already started subbing out some defensive players like Washington did last week. This is not about right or wrong. This is not about karma. This is about how it is, how it has always been, and will always be.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Beaning a guy the next time up after he's takes ten seconds in the batters' box to admire a home run is illegal.
Having your goon beat the effing daylights out of the other team's center forward in retaliation for a cheap shot on your star the last time you played is illegal.
Taking a forward's head off as he drives the lane the time after he woofed a bit too much about a dunk is illegal.
Taking Brady out with a series of 'late hits' for running up the score is illegal too. But he sure does have it coming - break the unwritten rules and you should expect to suffer the unwritten consequences.
Having your goon beat the effing daylights out of the other team's center forward in retaliation for a cheap shot on your star the last time you played is illegal.
Taking a forward's head off as he drives the lane the time after he woofed a bit too much about a dunk is illegal.
Taking Brady out with a series of 'late hits' for running up the score is illegal too. But he sure does have it coming - break the unwritten rules and you should expect to suffer the unwritten consequences.
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Neofight
Footballguy
I'm not so sure he should do that. Perhaps he had just misjudged the Judge?Seriously, I ask you guys to search your hearts to determine exactly what it is that Brady has done to have this type of target put on his back. Why so much hatred and anonymosity? Yes, that was intentional; I feel that the vast majority of people here and elsewhere would, when confronting the man in person, have little to say to him but "Nice job, Tom." I even imagine Wilbon would do an about face when face to face with a man who apparently so offends his sensibilities (though those are limited and obviously dulled). The power of the internet is that we can all hide behind our monitors while we spew such vitriol. But really, is that you Judge? Is that what you really feel? Do we harbor so much frustration and hate in our own little lives that we need to express it in this way?And for what: because the man is doing his job, and doing it better than anyone in the history of the game has done?It's a game, and the Patriots at this point in time are better at it than anyone else playing. While we may not like that, nor the manner in which they play it, that still does not necessitate unnecessary violence. There's plenty of that going on as is, in the game we all enjoy watching and playing, as well as outside of the game. There is something in all of this talk that makes me think a man like Kevin Everett, and others who have suffered catastrophic injuries in the sport, wince when they hear these views.Perhaps the fact posters you respect are saying this should be done should cause you to rethink your stance?The mindless trolls that have cropped up in the pool to spout their hatred I don't mind so much. But when posters like you, Judge, and MoP, who I respect and have interacted with for years on these boards join in, it kind of stinks./sanctimony
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ChrisHenrysDD
Footballguy
The thing is, if it was possible to get Belicheck on the field, it would be him taking the cheap shot. People are pissed at Belicheck, but Brady is going to be the one to pay. Unfortunate, but that's the way it is.And it's the internet, "anonymosity" is the name of the game.I'm not so sure he should do that. Perhaps he had just misjudged the Judge?Seriously, I ask you guys to search your hearts to determine exactly what it is that Brady has done to have this type of target put on his back. Why so much hatred and anonymosity? Yes, that was intentional; I feel that that the vast majority of people here and elsewhere would, when confronting the man in person, have little to say to him but "Nice job, Tom." I even imagine Wilbon would do an about face when face to face with a man who apparently so offends his sensibilities (though those are limited and obviously dulled). The power of the internet is that we can all hide behind our monitors while we spew such vitriol. But really, is that you Judge? Is that what you really feel? Do we harbor so much frustration and hate in our own little lives that we need to express it in this way?Perhaps the fact posters you respect are saying this should be done should cause you to rethink your stance?The mindless trolls that have cropped up in the pool to spout their hatred I don't mind so much. But when posters like you, Judge, and MoP, who I respect and have interacted with for years on these boards join in, it kind of stinks.
/sanctimony
And for what: because the man is doing his job, and doing it better than anyone in the history of the game has done?
It's a game, and the Patriots at this point in time are better at it than anyone else playing. While we may not like that, nor the manner in which they play it, that still does not necessitate unnecessary violence. There's plenty of that going on as is, in the game we all enjoy watching and playing, as well as outside of the game. There is something in all of this talk that makes me think a man like Kevin Everett, and others who have suffered catastrophic injuries in the sport, wince when they hear these views.
phthalatemagic
Footballguy
"Cheap shots are part of the game"
- Rodney Harrison and Mike Vrabel
- Rodney Harrison and Mike Vrabel
Judge Smails
Footballguy
I hear ya. I've been trying to process this intellectually as much as I can. But for me, like a lot of others on this board who had no predisposition one way or another about the Patriots - this is a highly charged emotional response. I played more baseball than football. I know that in college if a team stole up 10 runs in the 9th inning there would be a price to pay. Fastball in the ear for sure. Extra wide barrel slide at second on a double play ball, etc. Would not be tolerated. This is no different in my opinion.The mindless trolls that have cropped up in the pool to spout their hatred I don't mind so much. But when posters like you, Judge, and MoP, who I respect and have interacted with for years on these boards join in, it kind of stinks./sanctimony
phthalatemagic
Footballguy
Ministry of Pain said:
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