Will you get a Covid vaccine when available? (2 Viewers)

[-fish-]

I don't know what you mean by antivaxxer... certainly I can tell you the best surgeon I know has no plans to get vaccinated.  Really has no bearing on his credibility that I can see.

The second best has been vaccinated.  Also has made no difference in his credibility that I can see.

Then I'd let the second best treat me, and I would be happy with my decision.   The "best" has no credibility.   I think you're confusing skill or experience with credibility.   

 

[matuski]

Are you saying DO's aren't properly trained to practice medicine?

Of course not?

 

[-fish-]

Of course not?

So what about her training are you critical of?  Where she went to school? 

 

[matuski]

Then I'd let the second best treat me, and I would be happy with my decision.   The "best" has no credibility.   I think you're confusing skill or experience with credibility.   

Interesting.  If you asked the second he would tell you the first has more credibility.  He worships the guy.

 

[-fish-]

Interesting.  If you asked the second he would tell you the first has more credibility.  He worships the guy.

Again, I don't think you're using the word "credibility" the way people typically use it.  

 

[matuski]

Again, I don't think you're using the word "credibility" the way people typically use it.  

I'm using it in the way we would use it in the field we are discussing.

A patient choosing a doctor or not based on their vaccine status does not in any way shape or form influence or reflect the credibility of that doctor.

 

[-fish-]

Let's put it this way:  if I was representing a client in a medical malpractice case, I would present a health-care provider's anti-vax position to a jury to attack their credibility.    

 

[-fish-]

I'm using it in the way we would use it in the field we are discussing.

A patient choosing a doctor or not based on their vaccine status does not in any way shape or form influence or reflect the credibility of that doctor.

Yes, it does.   Just like I won't go to an aromatherapist or a witch doctor, I won't go to an anti-vaxxer.

 

[matuski]

Let's put it this way:  if I was representing a client in a medical malpractice case, I would present a health-care provider's anti-vax position to a jury to attack their credibility.    

Does not getting vaccinated mean you are anti-vax? News to me.

 

[-fish-]

Does not getting vaccinated mean you are anti-vax? News to me.

In that case it would make the decision making more questionable.   "I understand the benefit and efficacy of this vaccine, but refuse to take it anyway" is a tough decision to defend, and lacks credibility.   Just like taking one shot of a two shot series, but arbitrarily refusing the second.  The position lacks sound logic, and is therefore not credible.

 

[matuski]

In that case it would make the decision making more questionable.   "I understand the benefit and efficacy of this vaccine, but refuse to take it anyway" is a tough decision to defend, and lacks credibility.   Just like taking one shot of a two shot series, but arbitrarily refusing the second.  The position lacks sound logic, and is therefore not credible.

The refusal or inability? to represent the position you are arguing against is astounding.

 

[-fish-]

The refusal or inability? to represent the position you are arguing against is astounding.

Nobody has discussed inability.   Are you now claiming that the doctors you referred to are unable to be vaccinated?  Because that would be completely different than everything you've been saying and obviously different from what's being discussed. 

 

[-fish-]

No - they are saying they don't see the risk to themselves or their kids from covid.  For them it is something they have quantified personally over the last year+.  They then take that known (to them) quantity and weigh it versus the vaccine.

If you fear covid, you view it as a risk, you see a larger need for the vaccine.  

If you don't have a fear of it, if you don't view it as a risk, you see less need.  You may even see the small risk of side effects from the vaccine as the greater risk.

I'll be in a procedure where everyone is vaccinated, that same afternoon a case where only one or two in the room are.  Those vaccinated are no more credible than those who are not... they simply came to a different conclusion.

This is what you said.    Are you now claiming that their lack of vaccination was not because of a conclusion they came to, but instead was because of an inability to be vaccinated?  

 

[Doug B]

The refusal or inability? to represent the position you are arguing against is astounding.

Nobody has discussed inability.

You're talking past each other a bit here. Matuski is talking about your -- fish's -- refusal/inability to represent the position you're arguing against. Not "inability" as in "unable to get the vaccine".

 

[matuski]

You're talking past each other a bit here. Matuski is talking about your -- fish's -- refusal/inability to represent the position you're arguing against. Not "inability" as in "unable to get the vaccine".

We are boat buddies now.

 

[Doug B]

Are you saying DO's aren't properly trained to practice medicine?

Of course not?

@-fish- , see here to start. Also here: Osteopathic Physicians versus Doctors.

 

[-fish-]

@-fish- , see here to start. Also here: Osteopathic Physicians versus Doctors.

I have my own concerns about DO's.  The point here is that that lady is clearly insane, but is also actively practicing medicine.   As long as whackjobs like her can practice medicine, you can't convince me that refusal to get vaccinated is somehow valid just because a person is trained in medicine.   There are people like Lin Wood and Sidney Powell practicing law; that doesn't mean that their opinions are credible. 

Someone would have to present me with a valid, fact-based argument showing that the risks outweigh the benefits.   At this point, except for persons that have already have Covid or those that have a condition preventing them from being vaccinated, I haven't seen a compelling argument against vaccination, and I'd be wary of a health care professional that refuses to be vaccinated if they otherwise could be.

 

[-fish-]

You're talking past each other a bit here. Matuski is talking about your -- fish's -- refusal/inability to represent the position you're arguing against. Not "inability" as in "unable to get the vaccine".

I think I was confused by his punctuation.   

 

[-fish-]

We are boat buddies now.

You can disagree with people, even strongly, and still get along with them.   With very few exceptions, I'd sit down and have a beer with just about anyone on these boards.   There are a couple people that I'm pretty sure I wouldn't enjoy spending time with, but they're generally just here to troll anyway.   

 

[The Z Machine]

I made this comment off the cuff.

I apologize, after a quick googling, I also misrepresented the odds.

Kids are WAY WAY more likely to be victims of gun violence.

Paging @Stealthycat.  Another one that wants to take yur gunz.

 

[Stealthycat]

Paging @Stealthycat.  Another one that wants to take yur gunz.

probably so - I've said all along people under 18 rarely rarely get covid - of course assaults with guns would be more likely as would being killed in auto accidents, DUI incidents, suicide, general accidents, ATV's etc etc

perspective based on facts

 

[KarmaPolice]

Paging @Stealthycat.  Another one that wants to take yur gunz.

Dude, don't call him into the FFA! 

 

[matuski]

Paging @Stealthycat.  Another one that wants to take yur gunz.

Oh no. I have and like my guns.

 

[matuski]

You can disagree with people, even strongly, and still get along with them.   With very few exceptions, I'd sit down and have a beer with just about anyone on these boards.   There are a couple people that I'm pretty sure I wouldn't enjoy spending time with, but they're generally just here to troll anyway.   

It seems we are in the minority.  It is apparently hard for some people to keep a fantasy football sub forum in perspective.

 

[matuski]

So what about her training are you critical of?  Where she went to school? 

I missed this, but yes.

Even dodging the "is a DO even a doctor" debate.... nobody has ever heard of that school.  And yes, these things matter.  A lot.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

I missed this, but yes.

Even dodging the "is a DO even a doctor" debate.... nobody has ever heard of that school.  And yes, these things matter.  A lot.

if i'm reading her credentials correctly, that is the first and founding school for DO's.    

 

[matuski]

if i'm reading her credentials correctly, that is the first and founding school for DO's.    

The can of worms Im trying to avoid.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

The can of worms Im trying to avoid.

my statement doesn't address that can of worms either.  i had heard of that school. that's all.

 

[Terminalxylem]

No. Tens Millions of infectious people moving about.. Somewhat unlikely to get in an accident bad enough to be hurt, but still Hundreds of thousands dead. Simple precaution with a miniscule downside apart from trivial discomfort that is proven to all but eliminate risk. 

It's really pretty straightforward: the likelihood of the vaccine preventing serious infection, including death and long term debility + societal benefit in reaching herd immunity more quickly (less illness and death among vulnerable + decreased chance of more virulent/vaccine resistant virus evolving) exceeds the risk of a serious vaccine-related AE and inconvenience posed by vaccination.

It takes no special training to understand those relative risks.

 

[Terminalxylem]

That's fine. Pinpoint "long term," then. Scratch "pinpoint" -- a ballpark figure is helpful, too.

Do you know anyone personally that is actually waiting for, say, two or three years to pass and then will likely be eager to take the COVID vaccine? Are you quite sure it's not politics/worldview first, politics/worldview second, and then ... "oh yeah, no long term data! ... that's the ticket ..."?

While he's at it, I'd like to know what AEs concern him?  While one can never say never, there's little evidence for serious delayed AEs from any vaccine, nor is there biologic plausibility suggesting mRNA vaccines warrant more scrutiny.  

 

[Terminalxylem]

Having a linear conversation here has never been less possible.

Thanks for taking this tangent... maybe someone else can follow you there.

eta - im gonna go on a limb and suggest I know more people in healthcare.  Many did what you describe.  Many did not and have not.

I know quite a few healthcare workers as well, and @Ilov80s statement is pretty much spot-on for the vast majority. But I'm sure there is a lot of variability based on the type of HCW, where they live and political affiliation, unfortunately.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I love when drug reps think they’re doctors 

I think he's a device rep.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I missed this, but yes.

Even dodging the "is a DO even a doctor" debate.... nobody has ever heard of that school.  And yes, these things matter.  A lot.

You're right: education does impact one's credibility.  And it seems more educated healthcare professionals favor vaccination:

The Washington Post-Kaiser Family Foundation poll shows 35 percent of health-care workers aren’t too confident or aren’t confident at all that the vaccines have been properly tested — a number that’s very similar to the general population. What’s more, 3 in 10 either don’t currently plan to get vaccinated (18 percent) or haven’t yet decided (12 percent). And 1 in 6 says they would actually quit if their employer required them to get vaccinated.

This will undoubtedly be seen by some vaccine skeptics as legitimizing their fears. Even many health-care workers won’t take it, period, or are hesitant. And if even they aren’t convinced?

But it’s worth a closer look at just where the hesitancy comes from.

As The Post’s story notes, health-care workers run the gamut from doctors to hospital staff to caregivers. And the poll shows that those in higher-profile jobs and with more formal education are significantly less skeptical.

...

The biggest gap in the poll, though, is in education.

While 24 percent of those with less than a bachelor’s degree say they don’t plan to get the vaccine, that number is just 11 percent for those with college degrees and just 8 percent for those with postgraduate degrees.

That last one is a reasonable analog for doctors and other top professionals with the most medical knowledge. And of all the demographic groups broken out in the poll, they are the least skeptical of the vaccine. Fully 72 percent of them say they have already gotten at least one dose, and 85 percent have either gotten it or plan to.

I believe you that some (hopefully not many) highly skilled surgeons in Texas don't want the vaccine. 

But I wouldn't value a surgeon's opinion on vaccination much more than a layperson's - they have minimal training in immunology and infectious disease, and probably little contact with covid patients. Cutting and sewing doesn't impart any special vaccination expertise.

Instead, I'd listen to infectious disease practitioners and those who treat/follow infected individuals - especially hospitalists and critical care docs. I don't have nationwide stats on those groups, but anecdotally in Hawaii, almost all favor vaccination.

 

[Doug B]

Punjab govt decides to block SIM cards of people refusing vaccines (Dawn [Karachi, Pakistan], 6/10/2021)

The Punjab government on Thursday decided to block the SIM cards of people refusing to get vaccinated against the coronavirus, an official said.

The step was among several decisions taken by the provincial government to control the spread of Covid-19 and speed up the vaccination process, including opening walk-in vaccination for all adults from June 12.

...

The decisions come a day after the National Command and Operation Centre (NCOC) announced that coronavirus vaccines will be mandatory for all public- and private-sector employees, and that government employees must be fully vaccinated by June 30.

Among other drastic measures seen in the country to increase the pace of vaccinations, the Sindh government last week issued directions to stop the salaries of government employees who refuse to get themselves vaccinated from July.

Wow ... they're not playing around.

 

[beer 30]

We're well past a year into this and still having the same conversations. Not judging one side or the other as I support your right to not get a vaccine, just don't think we are ever going to fully come to an agreement on it.

 

[gianmarco]

We're well past a year into this and still having the same conversations. Not judging one side or the other as I support your right to not get a vaccine, just don't think we are ever going to fully come to an agreement on it.

What's amazing to me is that the vaccine has CLEARLY brought a sharp decline in cases, hospitalizations, and deaths and things are opening up as a result and yet there are still those against them in not insignificant numbers.

 

[culdeus]

What's amazing to me is that the vaccine has CLEARLY brought a sharp decline in cases, hospitalizations, and deaths and things are opening up as a result and yet there are still those against them in not insignificant numbers.

They got caught flat footed a little on this and have struggled to adjust.  The talking points were going to be that why take a 60% eff vax to a 99% asymptomatic virus?   

Now that the vax is more or less 100% eff. They have to go with the "wait two years" stuff that they laughed at as "wait two weeks" in an earlier phase of this virus.  It's awesome.  

 

[AAABatteries]

@Terminalxylem @gianmarco 

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/evidence-grows-stronger-covid-vaccine-link-heart-issue-cdc-says-n1270339

Any insight here?  My mother (who won’t get the vaccine for herself) called me about this as we are deciding what to do now that our 13/15 year olds are eligible.  Is this something to keep an eye on and/or talk to our pediatrician about?

 

[gianmarco]

@Terminalxylem @gianmarco 

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/evidence-grows-stronger-covid-vaccine-link-heart-issue-cdc-says-n1270339

Any insight here?  My mother (who won’t get the vaccine for herself) called me about this as we are deciding what to do now that our 13/15 year olds are eligible.  Is this something to keep an eye on and/or talk to our pediatrician about?

That's the first I've heard of it. Certainly something to pay attention to and I'm sure they will start looking at the numbers.

Overall, there are things in that article that just don't make sense. In particular, myocarditis is anything but "usually a mild disease". In fact, it is not very common but unfortunately can be very devastating with a pretty high mortality. So I don't understand where the author of that article got their information but it makes me question the rest of it.

 

[Doug B]

Overall, there are things in that article that just don't make sense. In particular, myocarditis is anything but "usually a mild disease". In fact, it is not very common but unfortunately can be very devastating with a pretty high mortality.

If the bolded is true of myocarditis, then the media (or someone) may be misidentifying the specific malady. Or maybe the identification is too broad or something? Reports have been that the kids experiencing post-vaccine are typically recovering fully (from AAA's link):
 

The CDC had information on the recovery of patients in 220 cases; in more than 80 percent of these cases, patients got better on their own.

...

Generally, children who have myocarditis will follow up with a cardiologist for about six months to make sure there are no other significant problems. Most cases are generally mild and go away on their own.

 

[Doug B]

WebMD on myocarditis:

Signs and Symptoms

Myocarditis often has no symptoms. In fact, most people recover and never even know they had it.

... followed by a lot of information about severe cases, how they present, how to treat, etc.

 

[gianmarco]

WebMD on myocarditis:

... followed by a lot of information about severe cases, how they present, how to treat, etc.

It must be different for adults than for kids. Mortality for kids can approach 20%. Another significant number require heart transplants.

There's nothing "mild" about myocarditis in children even though enough completely recover.

 

[Doug B]

It must be different for adults than for kids. Mortality for kids can approach 20%. Another significant number require heart transplants.

There's nothing "mild" about myocarditis in children even though enough completely recover.

No doubt about it. There's a Myocarditis Foundation, and I've gone down the rabbit hole on their site a bit to learn more. It's not an illness that gets a lot of public attention.

 

[Pip's Invitation]

Overall, 226 cases of myocarditis or pericarditis after vaccination in people younger than age 30 have been confirmed, Dr. Tom Shimabukuro, deputy director of the CDC's Immunization Safety Office, said during a presentation to a Food and Drug Administration advisory group. Further investigation is needed, however, to confirm whether the vaccination was the cause of the heart problem.

Normally, fewer than 100 cases would be expected for this age group.

Denominators matter. If we're talking about everyone under age 30 who has been vaccinated, 226 still produces a really damn small percentage. Of course we shouldn't take it lightly, and should try to figure out whether there is anything to it, but based on what we currently know, these cases are exceedingly rare and should not be used as evidence against vaccination. 

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Myocarditis has been on the radar for a couple of months now. This post is a couple weeks old and different subset of data they are analyzing, but here's what YLE said about it: 

Inflammation of the heart and vaccines

 

[Doug B]

Denominators matter. If we're talking about everyone under age 30 who has been vaccinated, 226 still produces a really damn small percentage. Of course we shouldn't take it lightly, and should try to figure out whether there is anything to it, but based on what we currently know, these cases are exceedingly rare and should not be used as evidence against vaccination. 

Agreed 100%. That's one of the bad things about this kind of reporting. Now some will say "The vaccines cause heart problems!" as a blanket statement.

 

[Pip's Invitation]

Agreed 100%. That's one of the bad things about this kind of reporting. Now some will say "The vaccines cause heart problems!" as a blanket statement.

Yep. It's a byproduct of too many people in the media not understanding things like "denominators matter." 

If this were a statement to the general public, I would fault the CDC as well, but it wasn't. When CDC and FDA people discuss issues like this, "denominators matter" is understood and doesn't need to be explicitly stated to each other. Unfortunately in this case, someone who doesn't understand that heard the conversation and reported it without context to large numbers of people. 

 

[Doug B]

Vaccinate or terminate: Houston Methodist hospital workers leave jobs behind over COVID vaccine requirement (KHOU-TV [CBS], Houston)

Should be interesting to see what happens with that. 

This got wrapped up faster than I thought it would (though there will likely be an appeal):

Judge rules in favor of a Houston hospital requiring employees to be vaccinated against Covid-19 (CNN, 6/13/2021)

A judge has dismissed a lawsuit against Houston Methodist Hospital by employees who opposed a Covid-19 vaccine mandate as a condition of employment.

On Saturday, US District Court Judge Lynn Hughes ruled against Jennifer Bridges and 116 of her fellow Houston Methodist coworkers who sued to block the Covid-19 vaccination requirement. Houston Methodist Hospital moved to dismiss the case.

Bridges and her co-workers claimed the Covid-19 vaccines used in the US were "experimental and dangerous," and that it would be "wrongful" to be terminated for refusing the get vaccinated.

...

The privately run Houston Methodist Hospital countered, saying not only were Bridges' claims untrue, but that under Texas law, workers are protected from termination only if they refuse to commit a criminal act that carries criminal penalties.

Receiving a Covid-19 vaccine is not an illegal act, and it carries no criminal penalties.

The judge agreed with Houston Methodist Hospital. Hughes admonished Bridges' analogy that her threat of termination in this case was like "forced medical experimentation during the Holocaust."

Judge Hughes called that claim "reprehensible" and said Bridges was not being coerced.

"Methodist is trying to do their business of saving lives without giving them ... COVID-19," Hughes wrote in the dismissal of the lawsuit.

"It is a choice made to keep staff, patients, and their families safer. Bridges can freely choose to accept or refuse a COVID-19 vaccine; however if she refuses she will simply need to work somewhere else."

 

[KarmaPolice]

Our store finally gave the green light for people fully vaccinated to go maskless at work if they choose.  Predictably, there were already grumbling of "discrimination" and customers knowing who and who isn't vaccinated.  

Oh well - at least I am excited about going maskless tomorrow!  Now I actually have to start brushing my teeth and trimming my nose hairs again.   

 

[bostonfred]

Agreed 100%. That's one of the bad things about this kind of reporting. Now some will say "The vaccines cause heart problems!" as a blanket statement.

Denominators matter. If we're talking about everyone under age 30 who has been vaccinated, 226 still produces a really damn small percentage. Of course we shouldn't take it lightly, and should try to figure out whether there is anything to it, but based on what we currently know, these cases are exceedingly rare and should not be used as evidence against vaccination. 

Anti vax logic is neat 

I dont need to get vaccinated because there's a very small risk of getting covid or dying from it!

Also I can't get the vaccine because there's a much, much smaller number risk of side effects!

I'm just following the science!