rockaction
Footballguy
I've taken the night to think about what this means for DK Metcalf. All I can come up with is:
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Wilson to Denver! (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Gatorman
- Start date
Getting rid of Max Unger and then only using Graham as a blocker was horrific. The trade for Adams was awful.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
On the surface, that's an appropriate response. But let's see who the Hawks roll out at QB before anyone jumps off a ledge.I've taken the night to think about what this means for DK Metcalf. All I can come up with is:
farfromforgotten
Footballguy
DeKaylin (that’s his name?) had some big games last year but during one 8 game stretch he had 31 receptions on 59 targets for 309 yards and 3 TDs. He was almost unstartable for a time. I could see the TDs falling off some from the 12 he had but the other numbers shouldn’t change much given his size and catch radius.
moleculo
Footballguy
Yes, the Broncos have had some hard times since Manning retired. As it turns out, finding a franchise QB is hard. As a Chief fan, you know that too well (how many good QB's have the Chiefs had between Len Dawson and Patrick Mahomes?) Bag on Elway you want, but at least he went down swinging. He drafted guys that didn't work out (Lynch, Lock, Osweiler). He signed the young hot shot free agent who won playoff games (Keenum). He traded for care-taker veteran QBs (Flacco,). He did everything you can do to get your franchise QB short of selling the farm to get a top 5 pick.
To be fair, with full benefit of hindsight, Elway could have drafted Russell Wilson instead of Osweiler, Dak ahead of Lynch), and Josh Allen instead of Bradley Chubb. But of course - nearly every team in the league missed on Wilson and Dak. At least Elway didn't pull the trigger on guys like Rosen, Turbisky, Haskins, etc.
The coach hires - less good. I was happy with Fox - he was the right man to turn a bad team into a good team, but couldn't make them great. Kubiak was the right guy to get the Broncos over the line. Vance Joseph - that was a bad hire. Fangio was less than stellar.
Still - I'll take it. I mean, how many GM's have been able to transition their team from the most prolific offenses of all time (2013 when Manning set the record in passing yards and TDs) to one of the best defenses of the SB era? I mean, come on. That's crazy. How many GM's fire their head coach 1 year after a superbowl appearance? How many GM's are willing to completely re-tool the focus of their team? This wasn't purely riding on Mannings coat tails.
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voiceofunreason
Footballguy
Well unless they're using those picks for Brady i don't see how it's good. Seattle is a dumpster fire. I'm expecting a year or 2 of horrible play and everyone is fired. Bad defense, bad o line, bad qb, bad gm. Only positive is there should be tons of garbage time but with these coaches I'm not sure even that will save Metcalf value.
Got into an argument about that years ago, they kept making terrible picks and trades. Don't trust these guys to rebuild this.
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Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I can see a scenario where SEA adds a lineman or two to help give mystery QB more time to throw. The defense shouldn't be great, and they may be forced to throw a lot. I don't think they will be a dumpster fire, so I think they will get behind and make quasi-comebacks to go from "losing big" to "losing" in the second halves of games. There could be lots of empty calorie garbage time fantasy points to be had. Hard to tell until we get a sense of who the signal caller will be and what they do with the picks they got.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Of course that wasn't their plan - just the net result in hindsight. It was meant as more of a joke though.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
You know Pete is in love with that DL beast from Georgia that ran 40 yds in 4.7, Jordan Davis might be his name?
While I agree that I would rather have Wilson than Cousins all things being equal I don't think it's as far off as the narrative suggests. As someone mentioned in another thread Wilson got to two SB's and won one on the back of a great defense and running game where he wasn't counted on doing much. He made a horrendous throw to seal a SB loss. How much of that was his fault? Who knows but it happened.
Cousins has been on far inferior teams throughout his "low dollar contract" days that there really isn't even a comparison to match playoff wins. In Minnesota he was held back by extremely conservative coaching, a terrible O-line, and a bad defense. The Vikings should have been in the playoffs this year if not for coaching, defense, and special teams. Cousins put them in a position to win at least 4-5 more games that were blown by bad coaching.
As a Viking fan I have watched a lot of Cousins since he has been in Minny. He has not been the problem at all and has gotten a raw deal. Now, there is something to be said that his cap hit does contribute to the overall team construction it doesn't change the terrible coaching and play calling that occurred over that time.
Yes Wilson is better but not by as much as the narrative has led people to believe.
Courtjester
The Town Drunk
As a lifelong Bronco fan, it just amazes me the people saying this was a bad trade.
We gave up a QB, who as much as I wanted to see him succeed, was dumb as a box of rocks. The worst part is he kept making the same mistakes over and over and over, throwing off his back foot into double coverage and either an INT or incomplete pass was the result. You can argue (I sure did in several Bronco threads) that he was never given any mentorship or help--but the fact of the matter is you can't fix stupid. He relies on his arm and not his head.
Now on to Noah--a good pass catching TE--that's it. When you asked him to block or pass protect, he simply was unable to do it and the results were either a missed assignment or a called penalty on him. Again, not a smart player. Several games you could see him getting wrapped up in some on the field drama and he would just disappear. Denver has other TE's--he won't be missed.
Losing Shelby hurts. His ability to knock down passes was legendary. He had a strong pass rush, but his personality was contagious, and his teammates loved him by all accounts. Those guys are hard to replace in the locker-room. Seattle will enjoy him.
Let's look at the picks, pre-trade--Denver had the 9th pick. This was probably going to the defensive side of the ball--edge rusher or LB and the 2nd round pick was probably going to be similar. Which of these draft picks were going to make this team a playoff contender? The answer is none. Denver was going to end up starting a junk QB again this year and at best finish .500 or below. Meanwhile the strength of the team is its youth and they get older and older. Denver still has NINE picks in this draft--a 2nd--two thirds and two fourths--plenty of chances to acquire talent. Denver has cap room, so they may not be done dealing.
Let's assume Denver doesn't pull it together this year and finishes with just 9 wins, the 2023 1st round draft pick is going to be in the teens and the 2nd will be in the middle somewhere as well.. However, if Denver makes the playoffs, those picks are going to be close to worthless. .
For all the people looking at just the numbers, you're totally missing what actually happened here. This trade was basically Harris, a top ten draft pick and a decent 2nd round pick this year for the possibility of 3-5 years of Wilson (a pro bowl QB with a Superbowl ring, who brings with him maturity and stability to a very young team). Seattle has to absolutely nail those picks, otherwise this was a big of a no-brainer, one sided trade if there ever was one and a glimmer of hope for a fanbase that needs something to cheer for.
We gave up a QB, who as much as I wanted to see him succeed, was dumb as a box of rocks. The worst part is he kept making the same mistakes over and over and over, throwing off his back foot into double coverage and either an INT or incomplete pass was the result. You can argue (I sure did in several Bronco threads) that he was never given any mentorship or help--but the fact of the matter is you can't fix stupid. He relies on his arm and not his head.
Now on to Noah--a good pass catching TE--that's it. When you asked him to block or pass protect, he simply was unable to do it and the results were either a missed assignment or a called penalty on him. Again, not a smart player. Several games you could see him getting wrapped up in some on the field drama and he would just disappear. Denver has other TE's--he won't be missed.
Losing Shelby hurts. His ability to knock down passes was legendary. He had a strong pass rush, but his personality was contagious, and his teammates loved him by all accounts. Those guys are hard to replace in the locker-room. Seattle will enjoy him.
Let's look at the picks, pre-trade--Denver had the 9th pick. This was probably going to the defensive side of the ball--edge rusher or LB and the 2nd round pick was probably going to be similar. Which of these draft picks were going to make this team a playoff contender? The answer is none. Denver was going to end up starting a junk QB again this year and at best finish .500 or below. Meanwhile the strength of the team is its youth and they get older and older. Denver still has NINE picks in this draft--a 2nd--two thirds and two fourths--plenty of chances to acquire talent. Denver has cap room, so they may not be done dealing.
Let's assume Denver doesn't pull it together this year and finishes with just 9 wins, the 2023 1st round draft pick is going to be in the teens and the 2nd will be in the middle somewhere as well.. However, if Denver makes the playoffs, those picks are going to be close to worthless. .
For all the people looking at just the numbers, you're totally missing what actually happened here. This trade was basically Harris, a top ten draft pick and a decent 2nd round pick this year for the possibility of 3-5 years of Wilson (a pro bowl QB with a Superbowl ring, who brings with him maturity and stability to a very young team). Seattle has to absolutely nail those picks, otherwise this was a big of a no-brainer, one sided trade if there ever was one and a glimmer of hope for a fanbase that needs something to cheer for.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
I think the Wentz-Commanders trade makes this look even better for the Broncos. The Colts and Commanders are just churning through mediocre QBs that it will be almost impossible to ever win a title with. Denver is at least taking a shot on a proven winner
Grahamburn
Footballguy
@Courtjester
I don't think it's a bad trade for Denver necessarily. Just that I would have questions surrounding Wilson for that amount of return considering his play style. He had the Seahawks in pretty good position for multiple years in a row prior to last season. I would be worried about his body holding up though, and the fact that Denver will not have the same level of young talent coming in to support him.
I just think it's a great move for Seattle considering the landscape and where they're at. They added several impact picks, a couple impact players, and carved out a ton of cap room all at the same time. They're in position to pounce on a franchise QB prospect in the 2023 draft and can surround that player with multiple position players all at the same time.
If I were going to bet on which one of those franchises goes to a Super Bowl sooner? I'd pick Seattle.
I don't think it's a bad trade for Denver necessarily. Just that I would have questions surrounding Wilson for that amount of return considering his play style. He had the Seahawks in pretty good position for multiple years in a row prior to last season. I would be worried about his body holding up though, and the fact that Denver will not have the same level of young talent coming in to support him.
I just think it's a great move for Seattle considering the landscape and where they're at. They added several impact picks, a couple impact players, and carved out a ton of cap room all at the same time. They're in position to pounce on a franchise QB prospect in the 2023 draft and can surround that player with multiple position players all at the same time.
If I were going to bet on which one of those franchises goes to a Super Bowl sooner? I'd pick Seattle.
Jacksonke1
Footballguy
Good trade for Denver IMO and decent return for Seattle under the circumstances with Russ' wanting out and the no trade clause.
Not worried about giving up 1st rounders, teams blow them all the time on perceived QB prospects, including Denver wasting a recent first round pick on Paxton Lynch and a second rounder on Brock. And the future first pick won't likely be as high as the one traded this year either.
Not worried about giving up 1st rounders, teams blow them all the time on perceived QB prospects, including Denver wasting a recent first round pick on Paxton Lynch and a second rounder on Brock. And the future first pick won't likely be as high as the one traded this year either.
Seemed like a lot to give up to me. I think Wilson is a bit over-rated...BUT...you need a decent QB to have any real chance, and Wilson is certainly at least "decent". Deal made sense for both sides under the circumstances I guess but I like Seattles side a bit more.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
As mentioned previously, we won't be able to answer which side got the better end of this for years. The players the Seahawks got back are not earth shaking. Fant is an ok receiving option as a TE but generally does not add much as a blocker. Lock is a marginal QB best suited as a backup that doesn't play. Shelby has had solid seasons but slipped a lot last year.
As for the draft picks, they're great when they pan out and busts when they don't. Here are all the platers Seattle used 1st or 2nd round picks on from the past 10 years.
2021 - 56 - D'Wayne Eskridge WR (Too soon to tell. Had 10 receptions as a rookie.)
2020 - 27 - Jordyn Brooks LB (Hit. Started every game last year.)
2020 - 48 - Darrell Taylor DE (Mostly a miss so far. Started 5 games in two years.)
2019 - 29 - L.J. Collier DE (Mostly a miss so far. Didn't start a game last year in his third season.)
2019 - 47 - Marquise Blair DB (Looking like a bust. Started 3 games in 3 seasons.)
2019 - 64 - D.K. Metcalf WR (Hit. Averaged 1,000+/10 a year so far.)
2018 - 27 - Rashaad Penny RB (Miss. Teams drafting a RB in the first round need consistent Pro Bowl production.)
2017 - 35 - Malik McDowell DT (Bust. Never played a down for Seattle.)
2017 - 58 - Ethan Pocic C (Mostly neutral. Started 40 games so far but not a top center.)
2016 - 31 - Germain Ifedi G (Mostly neutral. Started 60 games for Seattle and then moved on to the Bears.)
2016 - 49 - Jarran Reed DT (Mostly neutral. Started 80 games for SEA. Had one good year. Certainly not a star.)
2015 - 63 - Frank Clark DE (Mostly a hit. Had some big seasons. Made 3 Pro Bowls . . . while on the Chiefs.)
2014 - 45 - Paul Richardson WR (Mostly miss. Had one ok season but what out of the league after 6 seasons.)
2014 - 64 - Justin Britt T (Mostly neutral. Started 86 games for SEA without much distinction.)
2013 - 62 - Christine Michael RB (Miss. Bounced around several teams and did very little for any of them.)
2012 - 15 - Bruce Irvin DE (Borderline hit. Played 4 seasons in SEA when they were good.)
2012 - 47 - Bobby Wagner LB (Home run. Six-time First Team All Pro.)
Seattle got two firsts and to seconds from the Broncos. We won't know for a while how the picks pan out. But it's in the expected range that maybe they hit on one good player, they get two so-so players, and the fourth one flames out. Add that to the players they also received, and it's very possible when things are said and done, SEA got a bunch of average players.
Since joining the league, the winningest QB in that time was Tom Brady. Russell Wilson won the second most games in that time. Russ could fade, flameout, or get hurt in DEN, no doubt. But if he plays like he did in SEA the next 5 years, the Seahawks better hit on more than one guy with those draft picks or they will end up looking like they gave Wilson away.
moleculo
Footballguy
I'm reminded of when Broncos traded cutler to the Bears. Broncos got back Kyle Orton (who was fantastic for 6 games), two first round picks, and a 3rd.
The picks the Broncos received were used to draft Robert Ayers and Richard Quinn in 2009 and then it gets messy in 2010 with all the trading but Broncos ended up drafting Demaryius Thomas and Tim Tebow. Lets say Tebow was the guy here, because if Broncos had cutler, they ain't drafting tebow.
Ayers played in the league for 8 years but was never starting quality so call him a bust. Quinn - in 3 years he caught one pass. Clear bust. DT was a phenomenal player. Tebow - no comment.
Was that worth it? cutler for Orton, Ayers, Quinn, and Tebow?
Anarchy99
Footballguy
It can get really difficult to evaluate trades. NE does stuff like this all the time. They trade for picks, then trade the picks for more picks, then they trade those picks for more picks. I forget which player it was, but at one point they traded someone which fans were outraged over. But ultimately, they ended with like four guys including an All-Pro lineman. By that point, all the guys they got with the draft picks combined cost less than the player they moved on from. But that whole process probably took 3 or 4 years.
But it could just have easily been a disaster if all the picks and trading down on draft day ended up with guys that all flamed out. That's why it's impossible to know at the time a trade is made if it helped one team, both teams, or neither.
Look at the Wentz trade last year. Early this season it looked like the Colts got a steal. But by the end of the season, they couldn't dump him fast enough.
Chaz McNulty
Footballguy
They have had 3 of these 4 things for the last 4 years. And in some cases longer (bad o-line).
Stoneworker
Footballguy
Ah yes. Those silly narratives. Need to be careful not to mislead anyone.
9 pro bowls
2 super bowls
2nd only to Peyton in most wins in first 10 years
One of only four QB's in NFL history with career passer rating > 100
Chaz McNulty
Footballguy
I think you are way off. Anyone could look at certain time frames, subtract events, etc., to make two things more comparable than they really are. At the end of the day Russel Wilson is 9-7 in the playoffs. Why don't we compare that to Drew Brees' or Aaron Rodgers' playoff records.Once both QBs elevated to higher salaries they both have produced about the same results. I'm not saying Wilson isn't better but when you compare the Benjamins being paid out to both of them, it's not as funny as you might think it is gentlemen.
Russell Wilson has taken crappy Seattle teams to the playoffs in 3 of the last 5 years. He has probably had the worse O-line of any team over the last 10 years. At one point he was the best scrambler in the league and still was taking the most sacks.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Shawnky
Footballguy
I'll state again that I'm in no way a Broncos fan, but I do live in Denver. Moved here nearly 4 years ago. I'd like to know why on earth anyone would think this. I've laughed at the talking heads here talking about this team being a 9+ win/playoff team for the past 4 seasons and failing miserably. But, they do have what seams to be one of the top rosters in the NFL. They've lacked a good coach and a QB that can carry them. Now, they have a top 10 QB in Wilson, an offensive minded head coach, young talented WRs, a dynamic 2nd year RB, a very above average OL, and arguably a top 5 defense.
What does Seattle have? Metcalf , Adams, and that's about it.....Lockett I guess.
Your statement make zero sense.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Grahamburn
Footballguy
Did we not just watch the Bengals go to the Super Bowl? The Bengals! In their franchise QB’s third year. How’d they do that?
Well, they landed a franchise QB, maximized early round picks, and utilized massive cap space to sign impact free agents
Seattle can get their QB next year. Hit on a few picks. Sign some timely free agents. Capitalize on their divisional opponents soon to be coming downswing.
Guess I’m crazy though.
Denver has to go through the AFC West’s murderers’ row of franchise QBs with no first or second round picks the next two years and will be tight against the cap once Russ gets his $45M per and their other young players are due for raises. Good luck.
Well, they landed a franchise QB, maximized early round picks, and utilized massive cap space to sign impact free agents
Seattle can get their QB next year. Hit on a few picks. Sign some timely free agents. Capitalize on their divisional opponents soon to be coming downswing.
Guess I’m crazy though.
Denver has to go through the AFC West’s murderers’ row of franchise QBs with no first or second round picks the next two years and will be tight against the cap once Russ gets his $45M per and their other young players are due for raises. Good luck.
Stoneworker
Footballguy
And for every Cincy there are more Miami's. 5 first round picks and 4 second round picks in the past two years.
All they've got is a fired coach...and a city still wondering how to "capitalize on their divisional opponent on the downswing."
Chaz McNulty
Footballguy
Is that all they have to do. What do you think the percentages are of mediocre and below QB's drafted in the 1st round vs. franchise type QB's?
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
That's one way to put it but Wilson isn't 9-7 since becoming one of the highest paid QBs and players in NFL History
I made a side by side with Cousins, i'm not going to re-post but Seattle has not made it past the Divisional Round of the Playoffs since 2014 and in 2015 is when Wilson forced Seattle to pay him, lose him or do the franchise tag which is exactly what Washington did with Kirk Cousins.
You can disagree, always entitled to do so but I find you clinging to the 9-7 playoff record, that's not what I was saying in my post. I was clear about the time frame with links.
-Do you think Wilson was instrumental in Seattle winning a Super Bowl and returning in 2014 only to lose by Wilson's arm in the waning seconds when they finally needed a play to win the game? Most circles feel like one more run or carry to Lynch and they win the game, never has a QB done so little over B2B Super Bowls.
Appreciate you CM, would love to hear more but I need you to understand what I am comparing. Wilson's early success in Seattle was about a decade ago and I don't see fans besides themselves that he is being traded to Denver.
Cheers!
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Yeah, teams in a tough division who trade away a lot of draft picks never win the Super Bowl...
Remind me again who won the Super Bowl a month ago?
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
DropKick
Footballguy
He listed several key things that worked for the Bengals and you highlighted a SINGLE item and phrased a sarcastic question as if only one reason had been presented. Why do you do that?
Chaz McNulty
Footballguy
I said that because that is the most important part of the equation. If they swing and miss with their first pick at a QB, it sets the franchise back at least 2 years or more on the rebuild. Acting like Seattle won the trade because all they have to do is A, B, and C to become a contender isn't easy. And if the very difficult A part doesn't happen...
rockaction
Footballguy
Hitting on a QB is so very hard. Seattle is positioning themselves for a high draft pick in 2023, but don't be surprised if they win more games than even they think they will.
Stuff happens to best-laid plans to acquire a quality QB. One certainly just does not pull franchise QBs willy-nilly from out of thin air. Never mind out of the second round, which is where Russell Wilson went.
You're not going to find another guy as passed over as Wilson was, because the two main reasons for him being passed over (transfer and height) no longer matter to pro scouts unless you're extremely undisciplined and tough to deal with or extremely small. And that has a lot to do with Russ. I mean, Kyler Murray has proven that lack-of-tenure, 5'7" (please don't correct me here) mobile (yes, must be mobile) quarterbacks can get it done in the NFL. The NFL is so desperate for quarterbacks they've defined their own deviancy down, so to speak.
Seattle might wind up rueing this day. At least in my opinion, they will. Perhaps the people running the show there are utter geniuses, but I don't see that either. (Hello, Rashaad Penny in the first.)
Stuff happens to best-laid plans to acquire a quality QB. One certainly just does not pull franchise QBs willy-nilly from out of thin air. Never mind out of the second round, which is where Russell Wilson went.
You're not going to find another guy as passed over as Wilson was, because the two main reasons for him being passed over (transfer and height) no longer matter to pro scouts unless you're extremely undisciplined and tough to deal with or extremely small. And that has a lot to do with Russ. I mean, Kyler Murray has proven that lack-of-tenure, 5'7" (please don't correct me here) mobile (yes, must be mobile) quarterbacks can get it done in the NFL. The NFL is so desperate for quarterbacks they've defined their own deviancy down, so to speak.
Seattle might wind up rueing this day. At least in my opinion, they will. Perhaps the people running the show there are utter geniuses, but I don't see that either. (Hello, Rashaad Penny in the first.)
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Chaz McNulty
Footballguy
Seattle hasn't made it past the divisional round in the playoffs for so long because they have had really poor teams. The fact that they have been making the playoffs is because they have had a top 5 QB for most of those years.
I agree that 2nd and dumb was the worse play call in the history of the Superbowl. Give it to Lynch or roll Wilson out and give him a run/pass option. No reason for that play to happen. Besides the safety jumping the route, so many other bad things could have happened (tip ball, etc.).
I'm surprised you're calling out Wilson for his overall superbowl performances. He has a decent rating in those games with 4TD passed, 1 int, and 453 yards. But he did make the pass that cost him in the 2nd game.
Harry Frogfish
Footballguy
Part of the business/fun/BS of sports is questioning every last move. Some writers are great at finding holes and selling their story. But they are just generating interest or controversy (clicks), etc, it’s fodder.
The Broncos have a team in position right now that HAS to have a QB that can win a SB. There were two out there and Paton managed to get one. Huge win. Most deals and drafts, in any sport, value is super important, like anything. But there is also that time where "value" has to become secondary to the goal -- a SB. If that means paying a premium, so be it.
No position in all of pro sports is more important than QB, as we all know. To even have the chance at one, you need to take it if you can get it. If that means paying more than you would prefer, so what? You got your shot at sinking the eight ball, take it. This is the price you have to pay when you have the ONE remaining piece missing. The alternative is what? More .500 seasons and searching for gold that's not there? Fruitless and futile.
Go for it while it’s there because it may not come again for another decade. How many conservative/cheap ### teams do you see win it? Take your shot while you can, or run with the herd, which is just owners stuffing their coffers. Hi Spanos!
How did it work out for the Bucs and Rams the last two years when they went all in? The Patriots mortgaged the house for that last Brady run and got two. BB said it himself. Anyhow, the Broncos clearly have one of those windows right now, but without the one piece they MUST have to do it. There's no way a couple of first and second round rookies were going to get them there, so what is the point in fielding all that talent without the key piece in winning it all? It makes no sense.
And there were 2 QBs that can do it for them. To land one of them was sensational by Paton.
And who here thinks some average QB vet was going to get them over the top? Name one.
This team is peaking and what they need most is a top QB, leadership and belief. They got it all in Wilson. The entire team just got a shot in the arm, knowing now that they can actually win it. Make no mistake, the mindset a guy like Wilson delivers to the rest of a team is not calculable in draft picks. He may not get there, but he was one of the two best chances they had to take.
And the odds of those draft picks ending up anywhere near a Russell Wilson level is oh so slim. It’s nice to have draft capital but sometimes what's lost in it is that dream of what it will get you, when the truth is what it "might" get you. That can be a far cry. You trade one for the other. In this case, a proven commodity, on the Broncos side of it.
Denver is in win-now mode, as they should be. Beyond the stats comes leadership Wilson will provide for a team that has been drifting in the wind for too many years now. It's not just the psyche of the team that will surely change, but expect a higher standard all around.
And they just became a much more desirable place to play for guys that want a ring. Like guys that have their bankrolls already. They'll draw interest they didn't have before. A couple of days ago, they wouldn’t pick up the phone with a 303 area code on it. But now, with Wilson, you watch, they'll end up with some players that can't be quantified in the "deal", or draft capital. Forget the stats for a moment and see what/who else he will bring to the table. There's more to this than numbers.
Manning had a noodle arm in the end, but that leadership got them a Superbowl. Getting Rodgers or Wilson was do or die for the Broncos at this point and they got one. It's not possible to calculate what he brings to the entire franchise until it's all over. If it's a Superbowl, this was a steal.
Expect a solid OL FA, btw, which Seattle neglected time and again, even after he asked (sound familiar?). And once the team starts to gel, you will see the levels of those players rise. Just like Manning, Brady, Elway, etc.
Sorry, but no kids out of college are bringing anything close to that to the table in a win-now situation, period.
We'll see, but I'll say the Broncos will regain that swagger and Mile High is gonna be lit again with Wilson at the helm.
The Broncos have a team in position right now that HAS to have a QB that can win a SB. There were two out there and Paton managed to get one. Huge win. Most deals and drafts, in any sport, value is super important, like anything. But there is also that time where "value" has to become secondary to the goal -- a SB. If that means paying a premium, so be it.
No position in all of pro sports is more important than QB, as we all know. To even have the chance at one, you need to take it if you can get it. If that means paying more than you would prefer, so what? You got your shot at sinking the eight ball, take it. This is the price you have to pay when you have the ONE remaining piece missing. The alternative is what? More .500 seasons and searching for gold that's not there? Fruitless and futile.
Go for it while it’s there because it may not come again for another decade. How many conservative/cheap ### teams do you see win it? Take your shot while you can, or run with the herd, which is just owners stuffing their coffers. Hi Spanos!
How did it work out for the Bucs and Rams the last two years when they went all in? The Patriots mortgaged the house for that last Brady run and got two. BB said it himself. Anyhow, the Broncos clearly have one of those windows right now, but without the one piece they MUST have to do it. There's no way a couple of first and second round rookies were going to get them there, so what is the point in fielding all that talent without the key piece in winning it all? It makes no sense.
And there were 2 QBs that can do it for them. To land one of them was sensational by Paton.
And who here thinks some average QB vet was going to get them over the top? Name one.
This team is peaking and what they need most is a top QB, leadership and belief. They got it all in Wilson. The entire team just got a shot in the arm, knowing now that they can actually win it. Make no mistake, the mindset a guy like Wilson delivers to the rest of a team is not calculable in draft picks. He may not get there, but he was one of the two best chances they had to take.
And the odds of those draft picks ending up anywhere near a Russell Wilson level is oh so slim. It’s nice to have draft capital but sometimes what's lost in it is that dream of what it will get you, when the truth is what it "might" get you. That can be a far cry. You trade one for the other. In this case, a proven commodity, on the Broncos side of it.
Denver is in win-now mode, as they should be. Beyond the stats comes leadership Wilson will provide for a team that has been drifting in the wind for too many years now. It's not just the psyche of the team that will surely change, but expect a higher standard all around.
And they just became a much more desirable place to play for guys that want a ring. Like guys that have their bankrolls already. They'll draw interest they didn't have before. A couple of days ago, they wouldn’t pick up the phone with a 303 area code on it. But now, with Wilson, you watch, they'll end up with some players that can't be quantified in the "deal", or draft capital. Forget the stats for a moment and see what/who else he will bring to the table. There's more to this than numbers.
Manning had a noodle arm in the end, but that leadership got them a Superbowl. Getting Rodgers or Wilson was do or die for the Broncos at this point and they got one. It's not possible to calculate what he brings to the entire franchise until it's all over. If it's a Superbowl, this was a steal.
Expect a solid OL FA, btw, which Seattle neglected time and again, even after he asked (sound familiar?). And once the team starts to gel, you will see the levels of those players rise. Just like Manning, Brady, Elway, etc.
Sorry, but no kids out of college are bringing anything close to that to the table in a win-now situation, period.
We'll see, but I'll say the Broncos will regain that swagger and Mile High is gonna be lit again with Wilson at the helm.
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BoltBacker
Footballguy
IMO SEA were not in SB contention in 2022 with a Wilson(34yo) as their leader on offense and Wagner(32yo) as their leader on defense. Then they would go into the next offseason having to make the decision whether or not to give Wilson the "Big Ben Contact" where you give a guy a massive extension(I'm guessing close to $50mil/season after the salary cap goes up again) based on the fact he won the SB in the past and just ride him until he finally nosedives. I'd argue staying with Big Ben has put the Steelers franchise back 2 years or more.
To me, the trade is a clear "WIN" for Seattle based on the fact I don't think SEA was a realistic contender and now they aren't giving a QB in their mid 30's a contract close to $50mil/season extension based on what he's done in the past. SEA doesn't win or lose this trade based on how many regular season games either SEA or den win in 2022.
Whether den wins the trade is up for more debate imo. If Wilson can make a 7-10 team a SB team is left to be seen. If Wilson doesn't win a SB in den after giving up this much in future capital I think most level headed people would agree this trade was a failure. You don't make this type of trade to simply make the playoffs and lose. But he'll more than likely win you more regular season games, which has been no small mountain to climb for the broncos in the past several years. If the goal for den was to win more regular season games in 2022 I think den has won the trade as well.
How you view this trade really depends on whether or not you think SEA was a legit SB contender with Wilson in 2022 or whether or not you think den is a legit SB contender in 2022 with Wilson. I think Wilson has had a great career but I don't see him as a QB that drags either team to a SB anymore and avoiding the ~$50mil/season extension based on past performance is huge. THAT contract is what will really end up setting a franchise back for 2 or more years.
Grahamburn
Footballguy
I have no idea of course. Lately there have been several QBs picked in the top 15 that look like franchise guys.
If Seattle’s plan is to start Lock or Smith in 2022 with their eyes on a top 3 pick in 2023 (with a stacked QB class) that they can surround with multiple other early round picks in the next two drafts I think they’re in a good spot to have a quick turnaround.
Grahamburn
Footballguy
Keep in mind Denver actually traded 3 first round picks and 3 second round picks in this deal.
They might have a few key guys, but injuries do happen and depth matters.
They might have a few key guys, but injuries do happen and depth matters.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
I think it was a fine move for Denver. What was the alternative? Stay the course and guarantee to keep sucking? Or add a good QB to your offensive talent and good D and see what happens.
Probably a good move for Seattle as well so long as they commit to the plan and move some more guys
Probably a good move for Seattle as well so long as they commit to the plan and move some more guys
Anarchy99
Footballguy
You can't really count Lock and Fant as "draft picks." Sure, they were drafted in the first and second round, but at this point Lock is hovering on being a bust and Fant as a first-round pick is not much to write home about (not a bad TE but not first-round worthy to date).
If the Patriots packaged Sony Michel, Isaiah Wynn, N'Keal Harry, and Dont'a Hightower in a trade last off-season, would you say the Patriots traded 4 first round picks for PLAYER X? Clearly not the same as trading future draft picks.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Wonderful post back. Agree with you and I should lay off Wilson, at this point most can figure out I am a little salty towards him and Seattle '12-'14 mainly because he was the first of several QBs to either get to or win the Super Bowl in their rookie deal vs Sam Bradford as an outlier of one of the last guys who got paid upfront and semi-crippled the Rams from building around him. It started he Rookie QB time clock as I call it where teams that are smart and already decent in their OL/DL etc can find a rookie QB if they get lucky and have a high pick or move up and that rookie QB has a much better chance of success.
My brother is a Seattle fan, he lived there for several years and I bought a few Wilson jerseys for him, my favorite was the armed services edition a few years back, brother is a ex-Navy Corpsman. So while I'm salty I also I know first hand people absolutely love this guy.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Would you have signed off on a trade if the Fins were the ones that pulled the trigger on Wilson? Same type of trade (two firsts, two seconds, a fifth, and three rostered players).
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Well sure but it’s a disingenuous way to look at it. You’re trying to be clever by calling Fant a first round pick because that’s where he was drafted. Do you really think that’s his value now? Can Seattle flip him for a first round pick? They’d be lucky to get a 4th.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
You really go for the throat with that question.
MoP flying solo-No!
MoP as the Miami GM/Owner representing 75k strong every week at Hard Rock and wanting to sell jerseys like the rest of the greedy owners in the NFL, YES! YES! YES! What has Miami got to lose at this point?
Phins screwed up their rebuild and have only 2022 left to evaluate Tua before they hand him something in the realm of about $40M next Spring in a signing bonus, perhaps even more. The other option is to exercise the 5th Year on his 1st-Rd Rookie deal, that should go over well.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I think we’ve become so conditioned to believe first round picks are gold that we get all crazy when we see two firsts and two seconds in a deal.
It was surely a good deal for Seattle based on where they are now but it was also a great deal for Denver based on where they are now.
What people are missing is that the Broncos would likely be using a lot of that draft capital they sent to Seattle to try and secure a QB one way or the other - now they get one of the best in the league. Would they really be better off with more depth and Drew Lock at QB (or a rookie QB - after using one of those first round picks they sent away) because that’s what those bashing the deal are basically saying?
It was surely a good deal for Seattle based on where they are now but it was also a great deal for Denver based on where they are now.
What people are missing is that the Broncos would likely be using a lot of that draft capital they sent to Seattle to try and secure a QB one way or the other - now they get one of the best in the league. Would they really be better off with more depth and Drew Lock at QB (or a rookie QB - after using one of those first round picks they sent away) because that’s what those bashing the deal are basically saying?
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Agreed. If you can trade draft picks for a proven above average NFL player, that is almost always a good thing. Just ask the Rams. Teams blow more draft picks that you can shake a stick at. Russell Wilson is a proven commodity. Even in a "down" year in 2021, when he missed time and then struggled for a few weeks when he came back too early, he still had a very good individual season by NFL standards. No, the Broncos do not have a Metcalf at WR, but they have a lot of young talent at WR who should be able to perform better now that they will have a consistent passer throwing it to them.
