WINNING SUPER BOWL TEAMS (1 Viewer)

[renesauz]

First of all, if you’re a fan of a moribund franchise, a franchise that’s struggled to pull off 8 wins in a good year, it may be next to impossible for you to understand, let alone accept, the arguments I’m going to post here. Fans of the Lions, the Raiders, the Bills, Browns or Redskins, followers of the Rams or Niners the last decade are justifiably irritated by the incessant whining perpetually coming from Philadelphia as it relates to the Eagles QB’s. Fans of these franchises would LOVE to have been able to root for a consistent winner for the last decade instead of losing year in and out. Fans of franchises who’ve known recent (championship) success, like the Patriots, Colts, or Steelers, will have a slightly different take. Most fans of such teams point out that the Eagles have had chances, and have, in most years, come ever so close to winning it all. Only “bad luck” has plagued the Eagles.

Last year, the Eagles decided to part ways with Donovan McNabb, a perennial pro bowl player, in order to start a relatively unproven 4th year QB named Kevin Kolb. Supporters of Kolb pointed out his attributes, and his success in limited action, and swore up and down he could get the job done. Supporters of McNabb pointed out his winning record and borderline HOF credentials. The move was called reckless by many, gutsy by most, and right by a slim majority of Eagles fans. Today, the Eagles announced that after just 10 pass attempts, the team was abandoning the Kolb experiment in favor of another proven, winning QB, Michael Vick. By an almost overwhelming majority, this move has been applauded as the right one. WHY?

I’m a Kevin Kolb supporter. I’m also a Michael Vick supporter. I BLEED Eagles green…always have. I KNOW this team will win more games with Michael Vick in 2010. They’ll win 10, maybe even 12 games and make the playoffs, maybe even go deep. I KNOW that Kevin offers an absolute ceiling of 9 or 10 wins in 2010, with a wildcard berth and early exit as an absolute best case scenario. I would still rather play Kevin Kolb. I KNOW the Eagles can keep Vick, and play him for the next 5 years. Kevin Kolb doesn’t have to be the future for the Philadelphia Eagles. I know Michael Vick will bring a lot of wins to the Eagles given a real opportunity…and it’s true, I’m not as sure that Kolb, given that same opportunity, would perform as well. So why on Earth do some Eagles fans, like myself, STILL prefer to start Kevin Kolb? There’s two big reasons:

FIRST: Think back on the super bowl champions of the last 15 years. Recall the QB’s who’ve won those big games. Who are they? HOF guys like Brees, Manning, and Brady quickly come to mind. Premier QB’s who could pick ANY defense apart with decent pass protection. Guys like Big Ben and Trent Dilfer come to mind, but these QB’s were mostly along for the ride, winning on elite defenses and strong running games. The QB’s who ACTUALLY WON THE GAMES for their teams are limited to a very small category…elite pocket passers with strong leadership skills. No scramblers, no runners. These QB’s all boast terrific completion percentages...they are accurate enough to throw to even the best covered WR’s, given enough pocket space.

Guys like Donovan McNabb, and Michael Vick don’t win championships. They can be a part of a championship caliber team, like Big Ben was, but they can’t CARRY a team that far. Their games eat up marginal defenses. Their games often eat up good defenses, and often, they pull off upset wins to win big games they shouldn’t. Some argued that McNabb couldn’t win the big one, but when the definition of “the big one” is realistically defined, McNabb won plenty of big ones. That wasn’t the problem. The problem is that while their skill sets allow them to carry teams for a game or two, their games have flaws which preclude them from carrying a team for MULTIPLE STRAIGHT GAMES against the league’s best defenses….which is precisely what needs to happen for them to carry their teams in the playoffs. IN the playoffs, teams face ELITE defenses, and ELITE defenses are beaten with ELITE pocket passers…with guys who can thread the needle regardless of how good the coverage is. McNabb wins a ton of games…but he can’t thread the needle. He can buy time, but not enough time consistently when the pressure is ELITE. Championship caliber teams, teams that make it to conference championship teams and Super Bowls, often have ELITE defenses. You can’t win a Super Bowl without passing through at least a couple of these teams…and guys like McNabb and Vick, much like guys like Cunningham before them, don’t possess the right skill set to consistently carry their teams against the Elite.

SECOND: As explained, they can’t carry their teams THAT FAR. SO, is there anything else on this Eagles team that screams ELITE…anything else that can carry the team? The running game looks good, but not good enough to carry the Eagles. The defense is flashing tons of potential, but is extremely young and inexperienced, with highly questionable depth at CB and MLB. In fact, this team, even with Michael Vick playing at QB, shows the general characteristics of NOT ONE SINGLE CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM OF THE LAST 15 YEARS!!! Eagles fans have been fried on these and other forums for suggesting that the Eagles aren’t a Super Bowl caliber team, but I’ve yet to hear a single coherent argument that makes them a champion caliber team.

In the end, teams win championships with elite pocket passing QB’s, or elite defenses. This line isn’t good enough to protect a pocket passer right now, thus Michael Vick offers significantly higher short term potential. But as Eagles fans…that’s simply not enough anymore. I’ve been down that road eight times in ten years. I know how it ends, and it isn’t with a ring. It ends with you guys, fans of other teams, laughing at us because either A) We still haven’t won the big one, or B) We’re still whining after a “great season”.

Kevin Kolb is an unknown. We know he’s VERY accurate given time. We know he’s a decent leader that’s well liked and respected in the locker room. We know he’s (at least outwardly) confidant. We also know that he’s a bit of a gunslinger, making too many questionable decisions…a problem Kolb must overcome if he’s to become an “elite” pocket QB. Kolb can’t learn these things on a sideline, and he’s not likely to learn them with a Michael Vick coming in every 3 or 4 plays.

I, and many fans like me, would rather take a chance on Kolb, and pray he progresses enough to make a real run next year (when, presumably, the young defense has grown enough to be a more consistant supporting element, and the O-line is better addressed in an off-season), then watch another 11 win Eagles team fall in yet another high profile playoff loss. Guys like Cunningham, McNabb, and Vick are terrific assets for teams trying to re-establish themselves, they’re guys you want when the rest of your team is questionable and you’re desperate to turn around the direction of your franchise, but there’s an enormous difference between leading a franchise out of perdition, and leading that franchise into the promised land. It takes a different skillset. This Eagles team doesn’t need Moses...it needs Joshua.

Naming Vick the starter is a colossal mistake, and given Reid’s track record and statements, I can’t help but think he’s been over-ridden. The Eagles won’t just lose in the playoffs this year…they’ll lose their coach and the trust of the one player on the roster with most realistic chance to become an elite pocket passer. They’ll be exciting, they’ll be dangerous. They’ll be scary to play against…but ultimately, they’ll still be ringless.

I think I’m gonna be sick.

 

[Garts]

you should be the HC...not Reid.

 

[CaptainHook]

bravo

 

[Tony Jabroni]

Kolb owner no doubt.

Good Reid..I mean read..

 

[renesauz]

Kolb owner no doubt. Good Reid..I mean read..

I have Kolb in many leagues, but in several he was handcuffed with Vick because I feared the line would get him hurt. But in the end, fantasy takes a backseat when the Eagles play. This is purely from a Eagles fan perspective.

 

[CalBear]

Naming Vick the starter is a colossal mistake, and given Reid’s track record and statements, I can’t help but think he’s been over-ridden. The Eagles won’t just lose in the playoffs this year…they’ll lose their coach and the trust of the one player on the roster with most realistic chance to become an elite pocket passer. They’ll be exciting, they’ll be dangerous. They’ll be scary to play against…but ultimately, they’ll still be ringless.

First of all, your insistence that only pocket passers win Super Bowls is incorrect. For one thing, Roethlisberger is hardly a traditional pocket passer and neither was Elway. For another, your 15-year window conveniently leaves out Steve Young, who is probably the single best comparison to Michael Vick at QB. And finally, it leaves out the fact that the past doesn't predict the future. The West Coast offense was once not the way to win Super Bowls, either.Second, just because Kolb is a pocket passer doesn't mean that he's more likely to win a Super Bowl than Vick. Ryan Leaf was a pocket passer, too. The better QB is more likely to win a Super Bowl, and Kolb right now is not looking like the better QB. It's very likely the Eagles will not win a Super Bowl this year, but it's hard to see their chances improving with Kolb at QB.

 

[Babu Bhatt2]

So guys like Donovan McNabb and Michael Vick, in your opinion, won't ever win. Guys like Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Drew Brees are the real winners, and you say Kolb falls into this category.

I'm just curious, so I'll throw some names out there. Into which category would an in-his-prime Steve Young fall? What about an in-his-prime Warren Moon? What about Doug Williams?

 

[The Ref]

Dilfer?

 

[renesauz]

Naming Vick the starter is a colossal mistake, and given Reid’s track record and statements, I can’t help but think he’s been over-ridden. The Eagles won’t just lose in the playoffs this year…they’ll lose their coach and the trust of the one player on the roster with most realistic chance to become an elite pocket passer. They’ll be exciting, they’ll be dangerous. They’ll be scary to play against…but ultimately, they’ll still be ringless.

First of all, your insistence that only pocket passers win Super Bowls is incorrect. For one thing, Roethlisberger is hardly a traditional pocket passer and neither was Elway. For another, your 15-year window conveniently leaves out Steve Young, who is probably the single best comparison to Michael Vick at QB. And finally, it leaves out the fact that the past doesn't predict the future. The West Coast offense was once not the way to win Super Bowls, either.Second, just because Kolb is a pocket passer doesn't mean that he's more likely to win a Super Bowl than Vick. Ryan Leaf was a pocket passer, too. The better QB is more likely to win a Super Bowl, and Kolb right now is not looking like the better QB. It's very likely the Eagles will not win a Super Bowl this year, but it's hard to see their chances improving with Kolb at QB.

THe last 15 years is an arbitrary timeline, but a critical one. Young won in a different era, with teams that dominated in EVERY phase of the game...the pre-salary cap era. (Or at least, the very beginning of it, when most teams were still figuring out how to work with it.) Young fit the same profile, but the teams around him didn't.Championship teams in the last 15 years rarely dominated in all phases, but without fail they dominated in one of these two:Elite DefenseElite Pocket PasserI never said "pocket passer" , I said "elite pocket passer". I don't know if Kolb is, or even can become "elite" as a passer, but I know Vick isn't, and likely never will be. (IN this discussion, I'm useing the term elite to describe the pure passing...the accuracy and touch a QB possesses...it is not an attempt to degrade QB's with other elite skills) I never said the Eagles would be better this year...I clearly said they'd win fewer games this year. It's not about how many games this year...it's about the winning formula.

 

[Babu Bhatt2]

Naming Vick the starter is a colossal mistake, and given Reid’s track record and statements, I can’t help but think he’s been over-ridden. The Eagles won’t just lose in the playoffs this year…they’ll lose their coach and the trust of the one player on the roster with most realistic chance to become an elite pocket passer. They’ll be exciting, they’ll be dangerous. They’ll be scary to play against…but ultimately, they’ll still be ringless.

First of all, your insistence that only pocket passers win Super Bowls is incorrect. For one thing, Roethlisberger is hardly a traditional pocket passer and neither was Elway. For another, your 15-year window conveniently leaves out Steve Young, who is probably the single best comparison to Michael Vick at QB. And finally, it leaves out the fact that the past doesn't predict the future. The West Coast offense was once not the way to win Super Bowls, either.Second, just because Kolb is a pocket passer doesn't mean that he's more likely to win a Super Bowl than Vick. Ryan Leaf was a pocket passer, too. The better QB is more likely to win a Super Bowl, and Kolb right now is not looking like the better QB. It's very likely the Eagles will not win a Super Bowl this year, but it's hard to see their chances improving with Kolb at QB.

THe last 15 years is an arbitrary timeline, but a critical one. Young won in a different era, with teams that dominated in EVERY phase of the game...the pre-salary cap era. Young fit the same profile, but the teams around him didn't.Championship teams in the last 15 years rarely dominated in all phases, but without fail they dominated in one of these two:Elite DefenseElite Pocket PasserI never said "pocket passer" , I said "elite pocket passer". I don't know if Kolb is, or even can become "elite" as a passer, but I know Vick isn't, and likely never will be. (IN this discussion, I'm useing the term elite to describe the pure passing...the accuracy and touch a QB possesses...it is not an attempt to degrade QB's with other elite skills)

What about Elway?

 

[renesauz]

So guys like Donovan McNabb and Michael Vick, in your opinion, won't ever win. Guys like Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Drew Brees are the real winners, and you say Kolb falls into this category.I'm just curious, so I'll throw some names out there. Into which category would an in-his-prime Steve Young fall? What about an in-his-prime Warren Moon? What about Doug Williams?

Read agin...guys like McNabb and VBick can certainly win...but not because they're elite...if they ever win, it will because they have an elite defense backing them up.Steve Young played in a different era, and had elite players all around him on both sides of the ball.This is my opinion...and I attempted to articulate it as best as I could. I know it's a minority opinion, but I also know I'm not on an island alone. No QB has ever carried a team like this to a championship, and IMHO, no QB ever will. As a liefelong Diehard Eagles fan, I can only pray I'm wrong.

 

[CalBear]

THe last 15 years is an arbitrary timeline, but a critical one. Young won in a different era, with teams that dominated in EVERY phase of the game...the pre-salary cap era. Young fit the same profile, but the teams around him didn't.Championship teams in the last 15 years rarely dominated in all phases, but without fail they dominated in one of these two:Elite DefenseElite Pocket Passer

So, the Eagles lack both an elite defense and an elite pocket passer. Therefore they should stick with their non-elite pocket passer because...why?

 

[renesauz]

Naming Vick the starter is a colossal mistake, and given Reid’s track record and statements, I can’t help but think he’s been over-ridden. The Eagles won’t just lose in the playoffs this year…they’ll lose their coach and the trust of the one player on the roster with most realistic chance to become an elite pocket passer. They’ll be exciting, they’ll be dangerous. They’ll be scary to play against…but ultimately, they’ll still be ringless.

First of all, your insistence that only pocket passers win Super Bowls is incorrect. For one thing, Roethlisberger is hardly a traditional pocket passer and neither was Elway. For another, your 15-year window conveniently leaves out Steve Young, who is probably the single best comparison to Michael Vick at QB. And finally, it leaves out the fact that the past doesn't predict the future. The West Coast offense was once not the way to win Super Bowls, either.Second, just because Kolb is a pocket passer doesn't mean that he's more likely to win a Super Bowl than Vick. Ryan Leaf was a pocket passer, too. The better QB is more likely to win a Super Bowl, and Kolb right now is not looking like the better QB. It's very likely the Eagles will not win a Super Bowl this year, but it's hard to see their chances improving with Kolb at QB.

THe last 15 years is an arbitrary timeline, but a critical one. Young won in a different era, with teams that dominated in EVERY phase of the game...the pre-salary cap era. Young fit the same profile, but the teams around him didn't.Championship teams in the last 15 years rarely dominated in all phases, but without fail they dominated in one of these two:Elite DefenseElite Pocket PasserI never said "pocket passer" , I said "elite pocket passer". I don't know if Kolb is, or even can become "elite" as a passer, but I know Vick isn't, and likely never will be. (IN this discussion, I'm useing the term elite to describe the pure passing...the accuracy and touch a QB possesses...it is not an attempt to degrade QB's with other elite skills)

What about Elway?

Elway didn't win until he had both a strong defense and an elite running game...he perpetually failed until he was no longer the star, but just another supporting player.

 

[renesauz]

THe last 15 years is an arbitrary timeline, but a critical one. Young won in a different era, with teams that dominated in EVERY phase of the game...the pre-salary cap era. Young fit the same profile, but the teams around him didn't.Championship teams in the last 15 years rarely dominated in all phases, but without fail they dominated in one of these two:Elite DefenseElite Pocket Passer

So, the Eagles lack both an elite defense and an elite pocket passer. Therefore they should stick with their non-elite pocket passer because...why?

-Elite pocket passers don't become elite sitting on the sidelines...they have to PLAY!-We don't know whether Kolb is, or can become elite, but we know Vick hasn't been in his past, and isn't likely to become one now. We need to find out what we have in Kolb. Vick needs a franchise to lead out of Egypt, he's no Joshua.-If you accept the premise that you need one or the other to win the ring, why mess around with a formula gaurenteed to produce nothing but lower draft picks? If Kolb's a colossal failure, you have a high pick to use at QB while keeping the skill position players already in place.

 

[renesauz]

Dilfer?

Hello...Elite defense.

 

[None_More_Black]

Elite passers do win championships, but the vast majority of qbs in the league are not elite. Kolb will never be elite. If he had played better in camp and in the pre-season, he would never have been benched. If you do not have an elite pocket passer as your qb, you still have to try and find other ways to win. Vick is the answer for the Eagles.

 

[renesauz]

Elite passers do win championships, but the vast majority of qbs in the league are not elite. Kolb will never be elite. If he had played better in camp and in the pre-season, he would never have been benched. If you do not have an elite pocket passer as your qb, you still have to try and find other ways to win. Vick is the answer for the Eagles.

So...how do you suggest a team aquires an elite passer? Wait until the whole team sucks and get one in the draft? Wait for your starter to get hurt and pray your backup is the elite one? Vick absolutely wins more games short term...but no ring. Kolb loses more games short term...but if he becomes an elite pocket passer...a real shot at a ring.Starting Vick is the safe, chicken-#!$^ play, it's not a championship play.

 

[CalBear]

THe last 15 years is an arbitrary timeline, but a critical one. Young won in a different era, with teams that dominated in EVERY phase of the game...the pre-salary cap era. Young fit the same profile, but the teams around him didn't.Championship teams in the last 15 years rarely dominated in all phases, but without fail they dominated in one of these two:Elite DefenseElite Pocket Passer

So, the Eagles lack both an elite defense and an elite pocket passer. Therefore they should stick with their non-elite pocket passer because...why?

-Elite pocket passers don't become elite sitting on the sidelines...they have to PLAY!-We don't know whether Kolb is, or can become elite, but we know Vick hasn't been in his past, and isn't likely to become one now. We need to find out what we have in Kolb. Vick needs a franchise to lead out of Egypt, he's no Joshua.-If you accept the premise that you need one or the other to win the ring, why mess around with a formula gaurenteed to produce nothing but lower draft picks? If Kolb's a colossal failure, you have a high pick to use at QB while keeping the skill position players already in place.

-Pretty much all the elite pocket passers found themselves looking pretty good on the field by the time they were in their fourth year in the league. Kolb has had a grand total of one good NFL game, against a 4-12 team that finished #30 in the league in pass defense. He looked terrible in the pre-season and in pretty much every other opportunity he's gotten. -We have a pretty good idea of whether Kolb can become elite. In his fourth year in the league, he looks lost. He failed to throw a TD in a significant amount of pre-season action, and looked bad before leaving in week 1.-I don't accept the premise; I think it's ridiculous. There's no "guarantee" that starting Vick over Kolb will reduce the Eagles chances to win a Super Bowl.

 

[None_More_Black]

Elite passers do win championships, but the vast majority of qbs in the league are not elite. Kolb will never be elite. If he had played better in camp and in the pre-season, he would never have been benched. If you do not have an elite pocket passer as your qb, you still have to try and find other ways to win. Vick is the answer for the Eagles.

So...how do you suggest a team aquires an elite passer? Wait until the whole team sucks and get one in the draft? Wait for your starter to get hurt and pray your backup is the elite one? Vick absolutely wins more games short term...but no ring. Kolb loses more games short term...but if he becomes an elite pocket passer...a real shot at a ring.Starting Vick is the safe, chicken-#!$^ play, it's not a championship play.

My point is elite qbs are scarce. An team can go decades without finding one. You better have a plan b.

 

[CalBear]

Elite passers do win championships, but the vast majority of qbs in the league are not elite. Kolb will never be elite. If he had played better in camp and in the pre-season, he would never have been benched. If you do not have an elite pocket passer as your qb, you still have to try and find other ways to win. Vick is the answer for the Eagles.

So...how do you suggest a team aquires an elite passer? Wait until the whole team sucks and get one in the draft? Wait for your starter to get hurt and pray your backup is the elite one? Vick absolutely wins more games short term...but no ring. Kolb loses more games short term...but if he becomes an elite pocket passer...a real shot at a ring.

And if Desean Jackson becomes **** Butkus you could put him at linebacker, but no amount of wishing is going to make that happen. Kolb has not shown anything to suggest that he can become an elite QB.

 

[Babu Bhatt2]

Elite passers do win championships, but the vast majority of qbs in the league are not elite. Kolb will never be elite. If he had played better in camp and in the pre-season, he would never have been benched. If you do not have an elite pocket passer as your qb, you still have to try and find other ways to win. Vick is the answer for the Eagles.

So...how do you suggest a team aquires an elite passer? Wait until the whole team sucks and get one in the draft? Wait for your starter to get hurt and pray your backup is the elite one? Vick absolutely wins more games short term...but no ring. Kolb loses more games short term...but if he becomes an elite pocket passer...a real shot at a ring.

And if Desean Jackson becomes **** Butkus you could put him at linebacker, but no amount of wishing is going to make that happen. Kolb has not shown anything to suggest that he can become an elite QB.

He looks more like the "elite" QBs though.

 

[renesauz]

Elite passers do win championships, but the vast majority of qbs in the league are not elite. Kolb will never be elite. If he had played better in camp and in the pre-season, he would never have been benched. If you do not have an elite pocket passer as your qb, you still have to try and find other ways to win. Vick is the answer for the Eagles.

So...how do you suggest a team aquires an elite passer? Wait until the whole team sucks and get one in the draft? Wait for your starter to get hurt and pray your backup is the elite one? Vick absolutely wins more games short term...but no ring. Kolb loses more games short term...but if he becomes an elite pocket passer...a real shot at a ring.

And if Desean Jackson becomes **** Butkus you could put him at linebacker, but no amount of wishing is going to make that happen. Kolb has not shown anything to suggest that he can become an elite QB.

This is the only argument I can respect, even if I disagree with it. I think Kolb has shown enough to be given a real shot. His performance last year was VERY promising. Reid NEVER shows anything in pre-season...Eagles O always looks bad pre-season, always will under Reid.Ten passes this year under pressure is not even remotely a fair assessment period.

If you truly believe Kolb is the suck, that's OK...my argument with you is different. This thread is about the best CHAMPIONSHIP winning strategy...an electric, but ultimately flawed QB like McNabb/Vick, or take a chance on developeing an relatively unproven pocket passer with potentially elite accuracy.

Kolb has shown accuracy, which is the key attribute of the elusive "elite pocket QB". He has to play to evaluate the rest.

 

[Godsbrother]

Guys like Big Ben and Trent Dilfer come to mind, but these QB’s were mostly along for the ride, winning on elite defenses and strong running games. The QB’s who ACTUALLY WON THE GAMES for their teams are limited to a very small category

You are selling Roethlisberger way short here. Check Roethlisberger's career and postseason passer ratings. He certainly was not "mostly along for the ride".Here is a paragraph from wikipedia listing his accomplishments:

Roethlisberger earned the AP NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year in 2004. He became the youngest Super Bowl-winning quarterback in NFL history, helping lead the Steelers, in his second professional season, to a 21–10 victory over the Seattle Seahawks in Super Bowl XL at the age of 23. He was named to his first Pro Bowl in 2007. Roethlisberger led the Steelers to a second Super Bowl title in four seasons as they defeated the Arizona Cardinals in Super Bowl XLIII, 27–23, after he made a game-winning touchdown pass to Santonio Holmes in the final 35 seconds. Roethlisberger has been one of the most efficient passers in NFL history. He currently ranks 9th all-time in NFL passer rating (91.7), 5th in yards per attempt (8.01), and 8th in completion percentage (63.29%) among quarterbacks with a minimum of 1500 career attempts. He has the 5th highest winning percentage (.698) as a starter in the regular season among quarterbacks with a minimum of 80 starts.

But back to your point: teams in the NFL can and do win championships with all kinds of different teams and types of quarterbacks. There is no one way to win a Super Bowl.

 

[SSOG]

Naming Vick the starter is a colossal mistake, and given Reid’s track record and statements, I can’t help but think he’s been over-ridden. The Eagles won’t just lose in the playoffs this year…they’ll lose their coach and the trust of the one player on the roster with most realistic chance to become an elite pocket passer. They’ll be exciting, they’ll be dangerous. They’ll be scary to play against…but ultimately, they’ll still be ringless.

First of all, your insistence that only pocket passers win Super Bowls is incorrect. For one thing, Roethlisberger is hardly a traditional pocket passer and neither was Elway. For another, your 15-year window conveniently leaves out Steve Young, who is probably the single best comparison to Michael Vick at QB. And finally, it leaves out the fact that the past doesn't predict the future. The West Coast offense was once not the way to win Super Bowls, either.Second, just because Kolb is a pocket passer doesn't mean that he's more likely to win a Super Bowl than Vick. Ryan Leaf was a pocket passer, too. The better QB is more likely to win a Super Bowl, and Kolb right now is not looking like the better QB.

It's very likely the Eagles will not win a Super Bowl this year, but it's hard to see their chances improving with Kolb at QB.

I know he didn't win, but Rich Gannon was hardly the prototypical pocket passer, either. He averaged 305/3 rushing a year from 2000-2002. Do people think that Oakland lost that SB because Rich Gannon was a sidearm thrower with wheels, or did they lose because the head coach didn't change their terminology so the other team literally knew what plays they were calling at the line?

Donovan McNabb made the NFCCG 5 times. Suggesting that the fact that he didn't win a SB was because he was comfortable outside the pocket is beyond asinine. Do you expect me to believe that there's absolutely no barrier to a mobile guy making it to the conference championship game, but after that magical football fairies sneak into his bedroom and steal his mojo so he can't possibly advance any further. Suggesting that Ben Roethlisberger and his 90+ QB rating and clutch game-winning drive were just along for the ride is asinine. Suggesting that the only reason that Steve Young, the MOST DOMINANT QB OF ALL TIME, managed to win a SB is because he played before the salary cap and therefore had a great team at every position is asinine. Suggesting that Green Bay would have a better chance of winning a SB if they benched this guy for this guy is asinine. This whole premise that the only chance a team has at winning a championship is starting an elite pocket passer is asinine. Beyond asinine.

Seriously, the NFL is full of a lot smarter people than you or I. The fact that these smart, smart, smart people even bother rostering mobile QBs sort of suggests that they think they can win with a mobile QB. The fact that these mobile QBs rack up 70%, 57%, or 65% winning rates in the regular season is conclusive proof positive that they're capable of winning in the postseason, because- newsflash- postseason football follows the exact same rules as regular season football (well, except for overtime...).

Sorry renesauz, normally I think you're on point, but personally, I think this is just more of the same crappy logic that leads people to believe the Madden Curse is real. Find a couple of unrelated incidents (Gannon's opponent knew his calls, Donovan McNabb was winded at the end of the superbowl, Ben Roethlisberger had a bad game in his first SB), come up with some arbitrary association to tie them all together (they're all mobile QBs!), gerrymander the cutoffs to make the data look better (Steve Young? See ya!), and create a bunch of arbitrary rules to dismiss the numerous counterexamples (Ben Roethlisberger? Mobile QBs can win if they have a dominant defense! John Elway didn't have a dominant defense? He was just a role player who only accidentally piloted a top-10 passing offense and made the pro bowl). Voila, instant trend!

 

[Insein]

Completely agree with everything the OP stated.

 

[SSOG]

They are usually, QBs whoA) Play for a franchise with organizational stability with a clear set of goals shared by the owner, front office and coaching staff. ( I do not believe this is measurable, I do believe it matters) B) Have high football IQ, can play the game at NFL level speed, have the rare ability to "slow the game down" for themselves and see the game with a different tactical perspective than most despite said NFL level of speed. C) Have remained, for the most part, relatively injury free for their careers. Not saying they don't get hurt, but they tend not to appear as chronically injured or fragileD) Are complemented by an effective defense AND an effective ground assault. E) Play for coaches who can place players in a position to succeed and are willing to adapt given the circumstanceThe Eagles will never win a Super Bowl as long a Andy Reid is coach. I have nothing against Andy Reid. I have nothing against the Eagles. Regardless of who you put in at QB, Andy Reid will refuse to commit to the running game. He's also questionable in late game and clock management. He also appears to refuse to adapt from his game plan ( Both good and bad come from that, he is not a fair weather coach, for the most part, that's great when something is working, it keeps working. It's when it's not working that's a problem) It's not rocket science. You win playoff football with good defense and an effective ground assault. Teams that are designed to shoot it out or ignore the run or can't effectively run don't usually get very far in the playoffs. Reid has a large enough body of work to see what he will probably do and continue to do as a coach. Something to note about Vick is this, he benefited greatly from 1) Being in a stable organization for several years in a low pressure situation2) Having no real expectations placed upon him for most of his Eagle career3) Having NFL defenses not be acclimated to him within the Eagles offense yet4) Having time to rest and heal physically. He aged but he saved himself a few years of battering. Maybe this is the offense Vick needs to be in, where he is essentially a proxy for a running game. How much attrition can he take though? How will he look in six games when teams can scheme and adjust to him, set game plans and find his tendencies and weaknesses? Can he make adjustments? Is his football IQ good enough to adjust? Can he "slow the game down" for himself to make a critical third down pass? You can't run the ball as an afterthought and win playoff football. A game here and there? Sure. Consistently? I have my doubts. People look at Vick versus Kolb as if it's the biggest issue. I don't think it's all the complex. Sometimes coaches make no sense. Not to our definition of what they should do, but to what NFL playoff football has shown us after decades and decades. Bill Belichick has decided, strangely, to not improve his pass rush. You can't win if you can't hit the QB. People could argue all day about his lack of coordinators or what a third string back might do, but who cares when no one can hit the QB? The fundamentals of winning playoff NFL football are not that complex. I'm not saying you don't need a good QB. I am saying there have been plenty of good QBs who have teams that have faltered in the playoffs because they couldn't play defense or effectively run the ball. As for Kolb, Reid just destroyed this kid's confidence in this franchise. If Vick doesn't pan out and Kolb lights it up mid season, this can get really ugly for Reid. A young QB is going to struggle some. Let him actually play a few games before you put a round in the back of his head.

The problem with saying "always" or "never" is that you're always wrong and never right.No team had ever won the superbowl with a below-average run defense... until 2006, when the Indianapolis Colts won the SB with the worst run defense in NFL history (at least, in terms of YPA allowed). Those 2006 Colts also ranked 18th in rushing yards, so they also throw a nice wrench in your "team must be able to run the ball" theory. The 2003 New England Patriots ranked 27th in rushing yards and 30th in rushing YPA. The '02 Bucs were 27th and 28th, respectively. That's back-to-back SB Championships for a team with a bottom-5 running game.I think, at the end of the day, the key to winning in the postseason is exactly the same as winning in the regular season, except the sample size is so small that the results are immeasurably more volatile. The key to winning the SB, though, usually just boils down to having one of the better teams in football and getting hot (or lucky) at the right time. There's no magic formula. Some teams do it with elite defenses. Others do it with elite offenses. Some do it with elite QBs, while others do it with liabilities at QB and elite running games. Some do it with elite run defenses, while others play run defense like those pages are missing from their playbook. There's no formula beyond simply having as good of a football team from top to bottom as you can possibly assemble and praying for a good bit of luck.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

Maybe I'm missing something here. Winning 12 games with Vick? Nine or 10 with Kolb? Because they beat Detroit? They lost to the Packers in their own building. This doesn't look like a championship-caliber team to me. They might be the worst team in their division. Tough division, granted. But I don't think it matters who is behind center. The team isn't going anywhere.

I don't think Philadelphia has the coaching to win a title. I think some coaches can only take a team so far. Schottenheimer was one of them, and Reid seems like another. But as far as quarterback goes, neither of their options is better than McNabb. I don't know why they traded him within the division.

Maybe I don't follow them closely enough. I'll wait until they beat a division team on the road before I'll be impressed with them enough to care who is behind center. Until then I think Vick is as good as Kolb. Might as well let him try until he proves he can't handle it. He did get the Falcons to the conference title game (before they lost to Philly).

 

[Slevin Kelevra]

Guys like Donovan McNabb, and Michael Vick don’t win championships.

Guys like Kevin Kolb neither

 

[scratcher]

I dont know about your point about "elite passers" but I completely agree about this move with Vick being extremely shortsighted (uncharacteristic for the Birds). You trade away the best QB in franchise history to a division rival and the ONLY way to justify that is that you think the guy you groomed has IT. Now, after less than two quarters, you give up on him and go for the guy who lit up the Lions defense...



Who cares if Vick can get us into the playoffs for a quick exit. Been there, done that. This season was all about finding out what we have with Kolb.

 

[geoff8695]

I get what you're saying, and there's even a possibility that you are correct. However, the best way to find out for sure is to play Vick right now, and then re-evaluate. I believe that is what Reid is doing here, and IMO you're writing Vick off way too soon.

Vick is a unique type of QB that you can't just simply equate to McNabb, and this is the best set of offensive weapons Vick has ever played with. Is it really impossible that the stars are aligned and Mike Vick could be a great QB at least for one season? Why don't you give him a chance and see what happens?

His accuracy and completion % have been very good so far, and it isn't unreasonable to think that he may have improved this part of his game. What if he turns out to be an even more explosive "Steve Young" at this stage of his career? Besides, his skill set may play to the strengths of his supporting cast (Desean in particular) in such a way that the offense becomes unstoppable. Probably won't work out that way in the end, but the eagles have an opportunity to find out. It doesn't cost them anything really, and I think Reid is doing the right thing.

Oh, and some of the teams that have gotten to the Super Bowl relied on strong offenses with great QBs, and defenses that just happened to come together and gel at the right time (Arizona and Indy v.2006 come to mind). Couldn't the Eagles offense become a one year unstoppable force and the defense mature and develop into a strong enough unit to at least go on a three game postseason run? You can't win anything without at least getting into the playoffs first, and then who knows what will happen? You said it yourself, in this salary cap era you don't have juggernaut teams standing in your path to a championship - every team has a weakness that can be exploited...

 

[Tangerous]

You know what your problem is? You're putting the pocket on a pedestal.

 

[Raider Nation]

Donovan McNabb made the NFCCG 5 times. Suggesting that the fact that he didn't win a SB was because he was comfortable outside the pocket is beyond asinine. Do you expect me to believe that there's absolutely no barrier to a mobile guy making it to the conference championship game, but after that magical football fairies sneak into his bedroom and steal his mojo so he can't possibly advance any further.

Pretty much what I was going to write. Not to mention McNabb was one drive away from getting a ring.A drive in which, for some reason, the offense took its sweet time running plays.

 

[Insein]

Donovan McNabb made the NFCCG 5 times. Suggesting that the fact that he didn't win a SB was because he was comfortable outside the pocket is beyond asinine. Do you expect me to believe that there's absolutely no barrier to a mobile guy making it to the conference championship game, but after that magical football fairies sneak into his bedroom and steal his mojo so he can't possibly advance any further.

Pretty much what I was going to write. Not to mention McNabb was one drive away from getting a ring.A drive in which, for some reason, the offense took its sweet time running plays.

Which all of this leads back to the real problem, Andy Reid. His coaching and decision making have gotten us here. Yea he's won alot of games but he's made some completely boneheaded decisions in games and with personnel.

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Donovan McNabb made the NFCCG 5 times. Suggesting that the fact that he didn't win a SB was because he was comfortable outside the pocket is beyond asinine. Do you expect me to believe that there's absolutely no barrier to a mobile guy making it to the conference championship game, but after that magical football fairies sneak into his bedroom and steal his mojo so he can't possibly advance any further.

Pretty much what I was going to write. Not to mention McNabb was one drive away from getting a ring.A drive in which, for some reason, the offense took its sweet time running plays.

Actually on that drive they did score a TD to cut the Pats lead to 3 pts. McNab to Greg Lewis, just took them way too much time to do so. Eagles did get ball back deep in their zone with less then a minute to play no timeouts, but couldnt do anything except throw a pick

 

[NajehHejan]

Thinly veiled argument that suggests something else.

Who says the D can't be elite by the end of the year? The 2007 Giants gave up 80 points the first two games.

Running attack looks like it could be good too. McCoy looks much better than last year, not as hesitant, hits the hole quickly.

 

[cvnpoka]

Dilfer?

Hello...Elite defense.

2007 new york giants

 

[FreeBaGeL]

The better QB is more likely to win a Super Bowl, and Kolb right now is not looking like the better QB.

Based on what, the quarter and a half we've seen Kolb play this year? Don't say preseason, because people on here were saying they should cut Vick based on how poorly he was playing in the preseason. So Vick came in half way through a game and looked good (which, let's be honest here, if that meant anything then Billy Volek and Tyler Thigpen would be pro bowl QBs right now) and then blew up against the Lions, which everyone does.Kolb looked great in the actual full games he played last year as well. It doesn't seem crazy to anyone else to like a guy so much that you're willing to give up your franchise QB to let him start and then write him off after a quarter?

 

[Peeps Inc.]

[The problem with saying "always" or "never" is that you're always wrong and never right.No team had ever won the superbowl with a below-average run defense... until 2006, when the Indianapolis Colts won the SB with the worst run defense in NFL history (at least, in terms of YPA allowed). Those 2006 Colts also ranked 18th in rushing yards, so they also throw a nice wrench in your "team must be able to run the ball" theory. The 2003 New England Patriots ranked 27th in rushing yards and 30th in rushing YPA. The '02 Bucs were 27th and 28th, respectively. That's back-to-back SB Championships for a team with a bottom-5 running game.I think, at the end of the day, the key to winning in the postseason is exactly the same as winning in the regular season, except the sample size is so small that the results are immeasurably more volatile. The key to winning the SB, though, usually just boils down to having one of the better teams in football and getting hot (or lucky) at the right time. There's no magic formula. Some teams do it with elite defenses. Others do it with elite offenses. Some do it with elite QBs, while others do it with liabilities at QB and elite running games. Some do it with elite run defenses, while others play run defense like those pages are missing from their playbook. There's no formula beyond simply having as good of a football team from top to bottom as you can possibly assemble and praying for a good bit of luck.

 

[CalBear]

The better QB is more likely to win a Super Bowl, and Kolb right now is not looking like the better QB.

Based on what, the quarter and a half we've seen Kolb play this year? Don't say preseason, because people on here were saying they should cut Vick based on how poorly he was playing in the preseason. So Vick came in half way through a game and looked good (which, let's be honest here, if that meant anything then Billy Volek and Tyler Thigpen would be pro bowl QBs right now) and then blew up against the Lions, which everyone does.Kolb looked great in the actual full games he played last year as well. It doesn't seem crazy to anyone else to like a guy so much that you're willing to give up your franchise QB to let him start and then write him off after a quarter?

No, Kolb didn't look great in the actual full games he played. Against New Orleans he threw 3 picks (including a 97 yard pick-6) and had a 73.2 rating in a 26-point loss. He looked good in exactly one game, against 4-12, #30 pass defense Kansas City. That is the only glimmering he's had in his entire career that he could be anything other than a career backup. Frankly, the Eagles blew it by getting rid of McNabb, but starting Kolb isn't going to make that any better.

 

[CaptainHook]

no, kolb looked great against new orleans.

 

[JHuber77]

Elite passers do win championships, but the vast majority of qbs in the league are not elite. Kolb will never be elite. If he had played better in camp and in the pre-season, he would never have been benched. If you do not have an elite pocket passer as your qb, you still have to try and find other ways to win. Vick is the answer for the Eagles.

So...how do you suggest a team aquires an elite passer? Wait until the whole team sucks and get one in the draft? Wait for your starter to get hurt and pray your backup is the elite one? Vick absolutely wins more games short term...but no ring. Kolb loses more games short term...but if he becomes an elite pocket passer...a real shot at a ring.Starting Vick is the safe, chicken-#!$^ play, it's not a championship play.

Your an eagles fan so I wouldn't expect you to understand this. Michael Vick gives them the best chance to win NOW. If it does not work out and they fall short of a championship, there are plenty of teams who could use a game changing QB. SELL HIGH, BUY LOW. They obviously bought Vick at his lowest, why not sell high if he doesn't perform down the stretch? They don't necessarily need to wait until the draft to get the QB they want (if they indeed want Kolb to be their guy). Ride Vick while he is playing well and then trade him (assuming they resign Vick). Whats so hard to understand about that? If he wins you a championship along the way, so be it.

 

[belljr]

Guys like Big Ben and Trent Dilfer come to mind, but these QB’s were mostly along for the ride, winning on elite defenses and strong running games. The QB’s who ACTUALLY WON THE GAMES for their teams are limited to a very small category

You are selling Roethlisberger way short here. Check Roethlisberger's career and postseason passer ratings. He certainly was not "mostly along for the ride".

First SB along for the rideSecond SB driving the bus.

 

[Godsbrother]

Guys like Big Ben and Trent Dilfer come to mind, but these QB’s were mostly along for the ride, winning on elite defenses and strong running games. The QB’s who ACTUALLY WON THE GAMES for their teams are limited to a very small category

You are selling Roethlisberger way short here. Check Roethlisberger's career and postseason passer ratings. He certainly was not "mostly along for the ride".

First SB along for the rideSecond SB driving the bus.

Roethlisberger did not play well in SB XL but he was money in the 2005 playoffs and without him the wildcard Steelers wouldn't have made it to Detroit. Do these stats look like someone that was just along for the ride?PIT @ CIN 14/19 73.7% 208 Yds, 3 TD, 0 INT, 148.7 Rtg

PIT @ IND 14/24 58.3% 197 Yds, 2 TD, 1 INT, 95.3 Rtg

PIT @ DEN 21/29 72.4% 275 Yds, 2 TD, 0 INT, 124.9 Rtg, 1 Rush TD

 

[ROBOPUNTER]

Guys like Big Ben and Trent Dilfer come to mind, but these QB’s were mostly along for the ride, winning on elite defenses and strong running games. The QB’s who ACTUALLY WON THE GAMES for their teams are limited to a very small category

You are selling Roethlisberger way short here. Check Roethlisberger's career and postseason passer ratings. He certainly was not "mostly along for the ride".

I think he was mixing up Brady and BB in that first passage. Later, he says BB put the team on his back, which makes sense.

 

[Amused to Death]

I dont know about your point about "elite passers" but I completely agree about this move with Vick being extremely shortsighted (uncharacteristic for the Birds). You trade away the best QB in franchise history to a division rival and the ONLY way to justify that is that you think the guy you groomed has IT. Now, after less than two quarters, you give up on him and go for the guy who lit up the Lions defense... Who cares if Vick can get us into the playoffs for a quick exit. Been there, done that. This season was all about finding out what we have with Kolb.

What's seems so shocking it that they shipped McNabb out so they could see what they had in Kolb. The entire offseason was planning the transition to Kolb. So now 1 good/great game against that powerhouse known as the Lions and all that planning goes out the window. Extremely short sighted indeed.If anyone ever uses the rationale that something is true because "Andy said so" you should be forced to hand over your NFL fan card.Oh, and try to feed us a line of BS that this benching/demotion will help Kevin in his development

 

[Sudsy]

I don't believe there is one formula for success. I do believe success can be copied, but it is usually reserved for leaders, innovators, the bold, rather than to those trying to duplicate a formula.

 

[renesauz]

You know what your problem is? You're putting the pocket on a pedestal.

Not trying to...I'm trying to put elite accuracy on a pedestal, and that elite accuracy typically comes from the pocket QB's. That type of QB (Manning, Brees, Brady) THROWS a player open, while the more mobile guys buy time with their legs and wait for coverage to break down. The second type comes with more rushing yards, but more incompletions.It's not the escapability I'm focused on...it is indeed ridiculous to count that as a negative attribute...IT"S THE ACCURACY.

 

[renesauz]

Naming Vick the starter is a colossal mistake, and given Reid’s track record and statements, I can’t help but think he’s been over-ridden. The Eagles won’t just lose in the playoffs this year…they’ll lose their coach and the trust of the one player on the roster with most realistic chance to become an elite pocket passer. They’ll be exciting, they’ll be dangerous. They’ll be scary to play against…but ultimately, they’ll still be ringless.

First of all, your insistence that only pocket passers win Super Bowls is incorrect. For one thing, Roethlisberger is hardly a traditional pocket passer and neither was Elway. For another, your 15-year window conveniently leaves out Steve Young, who is probably the single best comparison to Michael Vick at QB. And finally, it leaves out the fact that the past doesn't predict the future. The West Coast offense was once not the way to win Super Bowls, either.Second, just because Kolb is a pocket passer doesn't mean that he's more likely to win a Super Bowl than Vick. Ryan Leaf was a pocket passer, too. The better QB is more likely to win a Super Bowl, and Kolb right now is not looking like the better QB.

It's very likely the Eagles will not win a Super Bowl this year, but it's hard to see their chances improving with Kolb at QB.

I know he didn't win, but Rich Gannon was hardly the prototypical pocket passer, either. He averaged 305/3 rushing a year from 2000-2002. Do people think that Oakland lost that SB because Rich Gannon was a sidearm thrower with wheels, or did they lose because the head coach didn't change their terminology so the other team literally knew what plays they were calling at the line?

Donovan McNabb made the NFCCG 5 times. Suggesting that the fact that he didn't win a SB was because he was comfortable outside the pocket is beyond asinine. Do you expect me to believe that there's absolutely no barrier to a mobile guy making it to the conference championship game, but after that magical football fairies sneak into his bedroom and steal his mojo so he can't possibly advance any further. Suggesting that Ben Roethlisberger and his 90+ QB rating and clutch game-winning drive were just along for the ride is asinine. Suggesting that the only reason that Steve Young, the MOST DOMINANT QB OF ALL TIME, managed to win a SB is because he played before the salary cap and therefore had a great team at every position is asinine. Suggesting that Green Bay would have a better chance of winning a SB if they benched this guy for this guy is asinine. This whole premise that the only chance a team has at winning a championship is starting an elite pocket passer is asinine. Beyond asinine.

Seriously, the NFL is full of a lot smarter people than you or I. The fact that these smart, smart, smart people even bother rostering mobile QBs sort of suggests that they think they can win with a mobile QB. The fact that these mobile QBs rack up 70%, 57%, or 65% winning rates in the regular season is conclusive proof positive that they're capable of winning in the postseason, because- newsflash- postseason football follows the exact same rules as regular season football (well, except for overtime...).

Sorry renesauz, normally I think you're on point, but personally, I think this is just more of the same crappy logic that leads people to believe the Madden Curse is real. Find a couple of unrelated incidents (Gannon's opponent knew his calls, Donovan McNabb was winded at the end of the superbowl, Ben Roethlisberger had a bad game in his first SB), come up with some arbitrary association to tie them all together (they're all mobile QBs!), gerrymander the cutoffs to make the data look better (Steve Young? See ya!), and create a bunch of arbitrary rules to dismiss the numerous counterexamples (Ben Roethlisberger? Mobile QBs can win if they have a dominant defense! John Elway didn't have a dominant defense? He was just a role player who only accidentally piloted a top-10 passing offense and made the pro bowl). Voila, instant trend!

The dispute isn't about winning percentage. Mobile QB's win a ton of games. IN fact, I openly said so in both my opening and closing lines. Vick, like McNabb, will win a ton of games. Where they struggle is in games against the elite teams....in the playoffs. When they face an elite defense they face more pressure from, or an offensive juggernaut (led by the ELite passer) that their own teams defenses simply can't stop. And they struggle because they can't throw a WR open...they don't have the accuracy.Again....VICK WILL WIN MORE GAMES THEN KOLB WOULD IN 2010, and possibly more games going forward then Kolb ever would. That's not the point. They (QB's like Vick)won't win the ring, and ultimately, that's what Eagles fans are screaming for.

And let's stop with Young already. Young was a scrambler, but he was also among the most accurate QB's of his day. He COULD throw a WR open, and often did.

 

[belljr]

Guys like Big Ben and Trent Dilfer come to mind, but these QB’s were mostly along for the ride, winning on elite defenses and strong running games. The QB’s who ACTUALLY WON THE GAMES for their teams are limited to a very small category

You are selling Roethlisberger way short here. Check Roethlisberger's career and postseason passer ratings. He certainly was not "mostly along for the ride".

First SB along for the rideSecond SB driving the bus.

Roethlisberger did not play well in SB XL but he was money in the 2005 playoffs and without him the wildcard Steelers wouldn't have made it to Detroit. Do these stats look like someone that was just along for the ride?PIT @ CIN 14/19 73.7% 208 Yds, 3 TD, 0 INT, 148.7 Rtg

PIT @ IND 14/24 58.3% 197 Yds, 2 TD, 1 INT, 95.3 Rtg

PIT @ DEN 21/29 72.4% 275 Yds, 2 TD, 0 INT, 124.9 Rtg, 1 Rush TD

Good point but I was just thinking about the actual sb. Not the full run which I should have considered

 

[FreeBaGeL]

The better QB is more likely to win a Super Bowl, and Kolb right now is not looking like the better QB.

Based on what, the quarter and a half we've seen Kolb play this year? Don't say preseason, because people on here were saying they should cut Vick based on how poorly he was playing in the preseason. So Vick came in half way through a game and looked good (which, let's be honest here, if that meant anything then Billy Volek and Tyler Thigpen would be pro bowl QBs right now) and then blew up against the Lions, which everyone does.Kolb looked great in the actual full games he played last year as well. It doesn't seem crazy to anyone else to like a guy so much that you're willing to give up your franchise QB to let him start and then write him off after a quarter?

No, Kolb didn't look great in the actual full games he played. Against New Orleans he threw 3 picks (including a 97 yard pick-6) and had a 73.2 rating in a 26-point loss. He looked good in exactly one game, against 4-12, #30 pass defense Kansas City. That is the only glimmering he's had in his entire career that he could be anything other than a career backup. Frankly, the Eagles blew it by getting rid of McNabb, but starting Kolb isn't going to make that any better.

Kolb threw 3 picks against New Orleans, but 2 of them came in garbage time (literally the last 1 minute of a 20 point game), including one of them on basically a hail marry on the last play of the game.You can't blame Kolb for the Philly defense giving up 5 offensive touchdowns to New Orleans.