Mjolnirs
Footballguy
Was waiting to post this.Your link isn't working.
(changed my link to one with images of the ship)
Last edited by a moderator:
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
World War II (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
(changed my link to one with images of the ship)
CBusAlex
Footballguy
Ozymandias
Footballguy
Great map! Almost as good as 1000 words.
timschochet
Footballguy
The Conflict In America
All this time, while England was losing one battle after another, FDR was attempting more and more to intercede, and drawing the wrath of Congress and the isolationists. He told the press he would not convoy, yet under his orders the Navy ran "security patrols" across the Atlantic, which were eseentially the same thing. Without consulting Congress, FDR warned neutrals Spain, Portugal, and Vichy France that he would stop trade if they helped the Germans in any way.
Under Roosevelt's orders, the highest levels of the military, including General Marshall of the Army and Admiral King of the Navy, held staff talks with English officers in which it was determined how the war would proceed once America had entered which was privately assumed to be an eventuality. It was also assumed in these talks that Japan would evntually join the war on the Axis side, and the determination was made: "Germany first". This was a policy that would last all throughout the war, much to the eventual chagrin of Douglas MacArthur. The plans that emerged from these meetings came to be known as "The Victory Program". Congress was suspicious, and called several members of the Administration to testify about these meetings, including George Marshall. Marshall, who was known for his integrity, lied under oath and denied that these were actual staff talks. So did all the other FDR aides. Roosevelt was now blatantly breaking the law.
Meanwhile, the struggle between isolatonists and interventionists throughout the country had reached new heights. William Allen White, a newspaper editor, formed the Commitee to Defend America by Aiding the Allies, and received the support of a wide number of celebrities and VIPs, including some movie stars and Eleanor Roosevelt. In response, Charles Lindbergh and Senator Nye formed the America First Movement. At first Lindbergh's statements were mild and somewhat reasonable. He said:
This is the climax of all political failure. We are in danger of war today not because European people have attempted to interfere in America, but because we American people have attempted to interfere with the internal affairs of Europe. Our danger in America is an internal danger. We need not fear a foreign invasion unless American people bring it on through their own quarreling and meddling with affairs abroad. President Roosevelt and the administration are seizing every opportunity to push us over the edge.
Lindbergh was criticized by the New York press, and he bitterly resented it. He had hated the press ever since their treatment of his family when his child had been kidnapped and killed. Liberal columnists referred to him as "Herr von Lindbergh", and Roosevelt called him a "Copperhead" and a "defeatist", which caused Lindbergh to angrily resign his reserve commission as an Air Corps colonel. None of this was fair. But then the former aviation hero went too far, and ruined his reputation forever. In Des Moines, Iowa, he gave a speech for America First, in which he waned the Jews to shut up:
Because of Jewish ownership and influence in our motion pictures, our press, our radio, and our government, if war comes, they will be blamed for it.
At once the America First movement lost much of it's moderate support, including that from Thomas Dewey, a rising Republican politician from New York. (Let me say as a Jew that because of this speech, my entire family, and almost every other Jew I have ever discussed this issue with, has assumed that Charles Lindbergh was an anti-Semite. I myself am not so sure. He had very good friends that were Jewish, including the influential Annenberg family. I suspect that Lindbergh was bitter and angry and simply said things that he did not mean. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt on this; of course I have no way of knowing. My family thinks I'm naive.)
As pointed out earlier, the far left in America was on the side of the isolationists. This abruptly changed on June 22, 1941- after that date, the far left were suddenly the strongest interventionists in the country, and even pushed for an immediate second front in France.
All this time, while England was losing one battle after another, FDR was attempting more and more to intercede, and drawing the wrath of Congress and the isolationists. He told the press he would not convoy, yet under his orders the Navy ran "security patrols" across the Atlantic, which were eseentially the same thing. Without consulting Congress, FDR warned neutrals Spain, Portugal, and Vichy France that he would stop trade if they helped the Germans in any way.
Under Roosevelt's orders, the highest levels of the military, including General Marshall of the Army and Admiral King of the Navy, held staff talks with English officers in which it was determined how the war would proceed once America had entered which was privately assumed to be an eventuality. It was also assumed in these talks that Japan would evntually join the war on the Axis side, and the determination was made: "Germany first". This was a policy that would last all throughout the war, much to the eventual chagrin of Douglas MacArthur. The plans that emerged from these meetings came to be known as "The Victory Program". Congress was suspicious, and called several members of the Administration to testify about these meetings, including George Marshall. Marshall, who was known for his integrity, lied under oath and denied that these were actual staff talks. So did all the other FDR aides. Roosevelt was now blatantly breaking the law.
Meanwhile, the struggle between isolatonists and interventionists throughout the country had reached new heights. William Allen White, a newspaper editor, formed the Commitee to Defend America by Aiding the Allies, and received the support of a wide number of celebrities and VIPs, including some movie stars and Eleanor Roosevelt. In response, Charles Lindbergh and Senator Nye formed the America First Movement. At first Lindbergh's statements were mild and somewhat reasonable. He said:
This is the climax of all political failure. We are in danger of war today not because European people have attempted to interfere in America, but because we American people have attempted to interfere with the internal affairs of Europe. Our danger in America is an internal danger. We need not fear a foreign invasion unless American people bring it on through their own quarreling and meddling with affairs abroad. President Roosevelt and the administration are seizing every opportunity to push us over the edge.
Lindbergh was criticized by the New York press, and he bitterly resented it. He had hated the press ever since their treatment of his family when his child had been kidnapped and killed. Liberal columnists referred to him as "Herr von Lindbergh", and Roosevelt called him a "Copperhead" and a "defeatist", which caused Lindbergh to angrily resign his reserve commission as an Air Corps colonel. None of this was fair. But then the former aviation hero went too far, and ruined his reputation forever. In Des Moines, Iowa, he gave a speech for America First, in which he waned the Jews to shut up:
Because of Jewish ownership and influence in our motion pictures, our press, our radio, and our government, if war comes, they will be blamed for it.
At once the America First movement lost much of it's moderate support, including that from Thomas Dewey, a rising Republican politician from New York. (Let me say as a Jew that because of this speech, my entire family, and almost every other Jew I have ever discussed this issue with, has assumed that Charles Lindbergh was an anti-Semite. I myself am not so sure. He had very good friends that were Jewish, including the influential Annenberg family. I suspect that Lindbergh was bitter and angry and simply said things that he did not mean. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt on this; of course I have no way of knowing. My family thinks I'm naive.)
As pointed out earlier, the far left in America was on the side of the isolationists. This abruptly changed on June 22, 1941- after that date, the far left were suddenly the strongest interventionists in the country, and even pushed for an immediate second front in France.
That's the same video, just a better link. Thanks.
I know that Robert Ballard found the wreck of Bismarck, but has anyone found Hood?
timschochet
Footballguy
The only other major event to discuss before we get to Barbarossa (the invasion of Russia) is Rommel's push through North Africa. I want to wait until tonight to start that narrative, because it's lengthy and will take some time. In the meantime, there are several other little issues I want to mention here. These are not necessarily in order, but they all fit into the timeline of the Spring of 1941.
timschochet
Footballguy
All throughout the Spring of 1941, England and America received reports of German troop buildups in Poland and on the borders with the Soviet Union. The inference was obvious; Russia was about to be attacked. These reports were sent to Josef Stalin, who rejected them. He was convinced that the Allies were trying to get him into a war with the Nazis, and he was not going to fall for it. He stubbornly held onto this position until he was attacked by surprise.
Stalin also at this time had gathered an impressive network of spies within the West he so distrusted. These included, as we now know, Klaus Fuchs, an important scientist who worked on the Manhattan Project. As the technology for the eventual atom bomb progressed, this information was copied by Fuchs and given to Julius Rosenberg, who with his wife Ethel sneaked it into the Russian consulate in New York. Another American spy was Algier Hiss, who was an influential New Dealer, and who worked with Whittaker Chambers in sending important American policy decisions to Russia. In England, Kim Philby, Guy Burgess, and Donald McClean were all key members of Military Intelligence who secretly worked for the Soviet Union.
Stalin also at this time had gathered an impressive network of spies within the West he so distrusted. These included, as we now know, Klaus Fuchs, an important scientist who worked on the Manhattan Project. As the technology for the eventual atom bomb progressed, this information was copied by Fuchs and given to Julius Rosenberg, who with his wife Ethel sneaked it into the Russian consulate in New York. Another American spy was Algier Hiss, who was an influential New Dealer, and who worked with Whittaker Chambers in sending important American policy decisions to Russia. In England, Kim Philby, Guy Burgess, and Donald McClean were all key members of Military Intelligence who secretly worked for the Soviet Union.
RudiStein
*Not really a bail bondsman
Well?
timschochet
Footballguy
Rudolf Hess
Rudolf Hess was nominally the number two Nazi after Hitler, but since the late 1930's, he was little more than a figurehead. Himmler, Goering, and Bormann all possessed much more power, and Hess was seen as something of a dullard. During the 1936 Olympics, Hess had met the Duke of Hamilton, and the two had become friends. Hess was terrified of a two front war, and in May, 1941, he learned of Germany's plans to invade Russia. Hess was determined that there should be no two front war- he personally would make a peace with England, and then Germany could attack Russia without this added threat. On May 10, 1940, Hess, dressed in the outfit of a Luftwaffe lt. colonel, flew an ME-110 to England, evaded two Spitfire interceptors, and parachuted near the Duke of Hamilton's estate, bringing his offer of peace.
...Or so the story goes. Even today, this seems too implausible even for a member of the Third Reich. I have never been one for conspiracy theories, but surely something else was involved in this story. But to continue the "official" narrative:
The British debriefed Hess and determined he was mad as a hatter. Germany released a statement that Hess had lost his mind, and never mentioned him again. Hess was kept locked away throughout the rest of the war. Stalin was always suspicious about Hess; he suspected Hess made England a genuine offer of a peace on behalf of the German government, and that England considered it. After the war, Hess was put on trial at Nuremberg, sentenced for war crimes and sent to Spandau Prison, where he was not allowed to be seen by the public. Even after all the other Nazis were eventually released (or died) Hess was kept in Spandau, away from the other prisoners, until he finally died in the late 1980's.
That's what we know. What we don't know has filled the pages of all kinds of books, both non-fiction (guesswork?) and fiction. If the truth is out there, it is still hidden.
Rudolf Hess was nominally the number two Nazi after Hitler, but since the late 1930's, he was little more than a figurehead. Himmler, Goering, and Bormann all possessed much more power, and Hess was seen as something of a dullard. During the 1936 Olympics, Hess had met the Duke of Hamilton, and the two had become friends. Hess was terrified of a two front war, and in May, 1941, he learned of Germany's plans to invade Russia. Hess was determined that there should be no two front war- he personally would make a peace with England, and then Germany could attack Russia without this added threat. On May 10, 1940, Hess, dressed in the outfit of a Luftwaffe lt. colonel, flew an ME-110 to England, evaded two Spitfire interceptors, and parachuted near the Duke of Hamilton's estate, bringing his offer of peace.
...Or so the story goes. Even today, this seems too implausible even for a member of the Third Reich. I have never been one for conspiracy theories, but surely something else was involved in this story. But to continue the "official" narrative:
The British debriefed Hess and determined he was mad as a hatter. Germany released a statement that Hess had lost his mind, and never mentioned him again. Hess was kept locked away throughout the rest of the war. Stalin was always suspicious about Hess; he suspected Hess made England a genuine offer of a peace on behalf of the German government, and that England considered it. After the war, Hess was put on trial at Nuremberg, sentenced for war crimes and sent to Spandau Prison, where he was not allowed to be seen by the public. Even after all the other Nazis were eventually released (or died) Hess was kept in Spandau, away from the other prisoners, until he finally died in the late 1980's.
That's what we know. What we don't know has filled the pages of all kinds of books, both non-fiction (guesswork?) and fiction. If the truth is out there, it is still hidden.
timschochet
Footballguy
Last post for this morning (tonight, I will try to cover Rommel):
Redwes did a fine job earlier of describing the German attack plan, but I wanted to add that in order to truly understand the German thinking, we have to study the failure of Napoleon to conquer Russia. That would take too long to detail here, but as a very quick summary: Napoleon took the same path as the Germans would with Army Group Center- the Borodino road, straight to Moscow. This allowed the French to get to Moscow with speed. But it also allowed the Russians to attack their flanks, as the Grande Armee grew thin and exceeded it's supply lines. Napoleon occuppied Moscow, but was forced out when he was surrounded.
The Germans were determined not to make this same mistake. By dividing the attack into three armies, North, Center, and South, they would prevent the Russians from eventually flanking them. However, this also meant they could not advance with the same speed that they would have if they had followed Napoleon's plan. So essentially they were giving up one weakness only to assume another.
In the end, just as with Napoleon, Germany simply did not have enough men to conquer Russia. Whether you attack in a straight line, and allow the Russians to flank you, or whether you divide your forces and attack in a wide front, which allows the Russians to regroup behind the lines, Russia is just too large and too populated a country unless the attacker had an overwhelming number of men, and neither the French nor Germans did.
Redwes did a fine job earlier of describing the German attack plan, but I wanted to add that in order to truly understand the German thinking, we have to study the failure of Napoleon to conquer Russia. That would take too long to detail here, but as a very quick summary: Napoleon took the same path as the Germans would with Army Group Center- the Borodino road, straight to Moscow. This allowed the French to get to Moscow with speed. But it also allowed the Russians to attack their flanks, as the Grande Armee grew thin and exceeded it's supply lines. Napoleon occuppied Moscow, but was forced out when he was surrounded.
The Germans were determined not to make this same mistake. By dividing the attack into three armies, North, Center, and South, they would prevent the Russians from eventually flanking them. However, this also meant they could not advance with the same speed that they would have if they had followed Napoleon's plan. So essentially they were giving up one weakness only to assume another.
In the end, just as with Napoleon, Germany simply did not have enough men to conquer Russia. Whether you attack in a straight line, and allow the Russians to flank you, or whether you divide your forces and attack in a wide front, which allows the Russians to regroup behind the lines, Russia is just too large and too populated a country unless the attacker had an overwhelming number of men, and neither the French nor Germans did.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
Stalin also received the information about the almost exact date of Operation Barbarossa from Richard Sorge, who was probably the best and most effective spy in WW2. Sorge, Russian born of a German father who was working in the Soviet Union, spent time as a journalist in Germany and China, while working for the GRU (Soviet Military Intelligence). He was in Japan from 1933 onward, ostensibly a German journalist, and knew and was trusted by the German Embassy there. However, Sorge's information became so reliable to the Soviets, that his key input into the fact that the Japanese were not going to attack the Soviet Union in the Far East enabled Stalin to transfer huge numbers of troops to the defense of Moscow. This information may have saved the Soviet Union.
Last edited by a moderator:
timschochet
Footballguy
Thanks. Per the timeline, I should have mentioned Matsuoka's deal with the Nazis regarding this issue, but my plan is to go back and discuss it when I start to discuss the events that led to Pearl Harbor. But I completely forgot about Sorge.
Copeman
Footballguy
Today is Thursday, August 27, 2009
Today in
World War II History
1939 - Nazi Germany demanded the Polish corridor and Danzig.
1945 - American troops landed in Japan after the surrender of the Japanese government at the end of World War II.
2001 - Work began on the future site of a World War II memorial on the U.S. capital's historic national Mall. The site is between the Washington Monument and the Lincoln Memorial.
Random World War II Quote
"Before us stands the last problem which must be solved and will be solved. It is the last territorial claim which I have to make in Europe, but it is the claim from which I shall not recede."
- Adolf Hitler, about storming Prague, 1939.
Today in
World War II History
1939 - Nazi Germany demanded the Polish corridor and Danzig.
1945 - American troops landed in Japan after the surrender of the Japanese government at the end of World War II.
2001 - Work began on the future site of a World War II memorial on the U.S. capital's historic national Mall. The site is between the Washington Monument and the Lincoln Memorial.
Random World War II Quote
"Before us stands the last problem which must be solved and will be solved. It is the last territorial claim which I have to make in Europe, but it is the claim from which I shall not recede."
- Adolf Hitler, about storming Prague, 1939.
Uwe Blab
Footballguy
Been loving the thread, but I have a quick, likely dumb question. I read the entry last page about the horrific plans the Nazis had for the people of Britain once they would have successfully invaded. From earlier entries it was mentioned that actually didn't mind the British from a genetic standpoint and felt they were at least from pretty decent stock. What did they feel about the French? I mean they controlled that country for 4 years and yet there wasn't some large liquidation or slave labor program there, correct?
Keep up the great thread, guys....
Keep up the great thread, guys....
Redwes25
Footballguy
Hitler was clearly focused on the Army and not on the political aspects of the conflict. To be honest, he really felt the Soviet government would collapse and did not understand the absolute control that Stalin which is odd given the numerous purges that basically removed all chalengers to Stalin. The problem with the plan is that it delayed the tempo of the attack giving the Russians time to regroup and reform shattered armies. If you have someone on the ropes you don't give them breathing room. Hitler also seemed to focus on gaining territory for future resources rather than on winning the conflict outright at times. It was a confused strategy and if the Army would have had complete control results could have been different. The Soviets also came to play as it will be shown.Also, the French invasion was very different since while they controlled the field after Borodino Napolean's army was given a mortal wound that it would not recover from.
Last edited by a moderator:
Ozymandias
Footballguy
Force, mobility, space. If you've ever played Risk, you've seen a simplistic version of the problem. The further you advance, the weaker you are, because you have to leave troops behind. It is 1,000 air miles from Berlin to Moscow, and longer than that by road; although probably only about 750 from the German troops jumping off point. But the USSR had the vastness of Russia to play with, and their defense in depth assumed that the first or second echelons would be brushed aside. And then there is the Russian winter. If you are going to defeat Russia, you'd better do it by the end of September. By October, the advantage swings to them. They are used to the bitter cold.
Redwes25
Footballguy
Agreed but holding troops still for no reason other than Hitler's fears does not play out. There are times in the conflict when the general staff hoped Guderian would disobey orders like he did in France!!! That is no way to win a fight.
timschochet
Footballguy
The zealous Nazi types did not view the French as exactly equal to German Nordic Aryan stock, but on the other hand they were not inferior in the way the Slav states were (including Poland and Russia.) Actually, Hitler's plan was to release France from occupation once England surrendered, so long as the French govenment remained subserviant. The French were probably among the best treated country in the New Order (though resistance was met with reprisals.)For a realistic description of events in occupied France, I highly recommend the documentary The Sorrow And The Pity. For a very UNrealistic (but completely riveting) film about this subject matter, I highly recommend Inglorius BasterdsUwe Blab said:
timschochet
Footballguy
Erwin Rommel
Unlike so many of the other German Generals, Rommel did not come from a military, Prussian background. There was no "von" in front of his name. His father was a schoolmaster (principal.) Because of this, in the Reichswehr (army) that Rommel first joined as an aspirant for military academy in 1910, the highest position he could have hoped for is that of Major.
But World War I changed all that. In that war, Rommel's record as a young officer is simply amazing. Here is just ONE example, to give you guys a measure of this EXTRAORDINARY man- on August 22, 1914, his regiment was moving against the French near Longwy. Rommel was sent forward on horseback to scout the village of Bleid. He had not slept for over 24 hours and was ill from food poisoning. But he went forward alone in a thick fog. Locating the village, he returned to his platoon and took three men with him. Through the fog he saw 15-20 French soldiers. What to do? Go back and allow them to get away? Or attack now with surprise, even though he was badly outnumbered?
True to the form that would last his entire life, Rommel attacked. He and his three men rushed forward, shouting and firing. Some French fell, but the others broke and ran for cover. The rest of Rommel's platoon now came up, and within 10 minutes they had captured the entire village, defeating a French foe which turned out to be 5 times their number. Thus Erwin Rommel.
Whether it was incredible bravery, insanity, or a suicidal wish fulfillment, Rommel repeated this feat and several like it numerous times during the war. He was constantly willing to throw himself against great odds, so long as he achieved surprise. Perhaps he because he put himself at risk and never ordered his men to do anything that he would not do himself, his men loved him. Rommel's last exploit in the war was an attack against the Austrian village of Longarone, held by Italians. In order to achieve this surprise, Rommel roped himself to six other men and they swam an icy river at night. The seven then surrounded the village on all sides and at 2 in the morning commenced firing into the village from 7 different directions. At daybreak, Rommel entered the village alone and demanded it's surrender, which was quickly given. After this feat, he was given a staff appointment, to his immense disgust, which lasted until the end of the war.
During the 1920's Erwin Rommel was part of 100,000 soldiers allowed in the Reichwehr. He itched for combat, but had to be content teaching at a military college. When the Nazis rose to power, Rommel scorned them as barbaric, but he liked the fact that Hitler was rebuilding the military. His former exploits had made Rommel a legend in the army, and he came to the attention of Hitler, who also admired that Rommel was handsome, tall, blond haired and blue-eyed- the perfect Aryan. Rommel was named part of the handpicked elite battalion that served as Hitler's personal bodyguard.
In this role, Rommel came to admire Hitler's leadership, intuition, and charisma, though he still detested the Nazis and especially the SS. (Himmler never trusted Rommel either- the two men would always be enemies.) When war began, Rommel begged for battle, and thanks to Hitler's intercession he was given command of the 7th Panzer division, where once again he showed great resourcefulness (as I have already described in the invasion of France). In January of 1941 Hitler summoned him personally and asked him to rescue the Italian fortunes in North Africa.
Unlike so many of the other German Generals, Rommel did not come from a military, Prussian background. There was no "von" in front of his name. His father was a schoolmaster (principal.) Because of this, in the Reichswehr (army) that Rommel first joined as an aspirant for military academy in 1910, the highest position he could have hoped for is that of Major.
But World War I changed all that. In that war, Rommel's record as a young officer is simply amazing. Here is just ONE example, to give you guys a measure of this EXTRAORDINARY man- on August 22, 1914, his regiment was moving against the French near Longwy. Rommel was sent forward on horseback to scout the village of Bleid. He had not slept for over 24 hours and was ill from food poisoning. But he went forward alone in a thick fog. Locating the village, he returned to his platoon and took three men with him. Through the fog he saw 15-20 French soldiers. What to do? Go back and allow them to get away? Or attack now with surprise, even though he was badly outnumbered?
True to the form that would last his entire life, Rommel attacked. He and his three men rushed forward, shouting and firing. Some French fell, but the others broke and ran for cover. The rest of Rommel's platoon now came up, and within 10 minutes they had captured the entire village, defeating a French foe which turned out to be 5 times their number. Thus Erwin Rommel.
Whether it was incredible bravery, insanity, or a suicidal wish fulfillment, Rommel repeated this feat and several like it numerous times during the war. He was constantly willing to throw himself against great odds, so long as he achieved surprise. Perhaps he because he put himself at risk and never ordered his men to do anything that he would not do himself, his men loved him. Rommel's last exploit in the war was an attack against the Austrian village of Longarone, held by Italians. In order to achieve this surprise, Rommel roped himself to six other men and they swam an icy river at night. The seven then surrounded the village on all sides and at 2 in the morning commenced firing into the village from 7 different directions. At daybreak, Rommel entered the village alone and demanded it's surrender, which was quickly given. After this feat, he was given a staff appointment, to his immense disgust, which lasted until the end of the war.
During the 1920's Erwin Rommel was part of 100,000 soldiers allowed in the Reichwehr. He itched for combat, but had to be content teaching at a military college. When the Nazis rose to power, Rommel scorned them as barbaric, but he liked the fact that Hitler was rebuilding the military. His former exploits had made Rommel a legend in the army, and he came to the attention of Hitler, who also admired that Rommel was handsome, tall, blond haired and blue-eyed- the perfect Aryan. Rommel was named part of the handpicked elite battalion that served as Hitler's personal bodyguard.
In this role, Rommel came to admire Hitler's leadership, intuition, and charisma, though he still detested the Nazis and especially the SS. (Himmler never trusted Rommel either- the two men would always be enemies.) When war began, Rommel begged for battle, and thanks to Hitler's intercession he was given command of the 7th Panzer division, where once again he showed great resourcefulness (as I have already described in the invasion of France). In January of 1941 Hitler summoned him personally and asked him to rescue the Italian fortunes in North Africa.
Mjolnirs
Footballguy
One of my personal favorite historical figures. I even did a a term paper on him in high school, many, many years ag
n another note. While this isn't within our timeline I thought this the perfect place to post a link to this story in today's Charleston paper:Gone, but not forgotten. WWII bomb group gathers to reminisce, pay respects to dead
timschochet
Footballguy
Rommel Strikes
After training his panzer troops in conditions to that would simulate the desert, Rommel arrived in Tripoli in late February, 1941. The British knew he was coming, but knew almost nothing about him and expected him to consolidate his position before taking any action. They figured he would not attack until late May, at which time they hoped to have more troops to replace the ones Churchill had sent to Greece. Even Hitler had instructed Rommel only to have plans developed for attack by late April.
Instead, Rommel attacked on March 31. His first assault so surprised the British that their entire command at Cyreaica was swept away. Even worse, the one man who might have proved to be Rommel's equal, General O'Connor, was captured in this initial battle!
With great delight, Rommel flew to the site of victory in his Stork (a small aircraft similar to a Piper Club) and instructed his soldiers to present the famed captured British general. Rommel was extremely courteous to O'Connor, complimenting him on his exploits "which I have studied in great detail". He saw a pair of huge sand and sun goggles, which had belonged to O'Connor, and said, "Booty of war- permissible, even for a General!" Laughing, he adjusted the goggles above the gold braided rim of his cap. A legend was born- that of the Desert Fox.
Within less than 2 weeks, Rommel drove the British back 400 miles, all the way to the western edge of Egypt. However, the fortress of Tobruk was still held by Australians. Rommel knew he could not advance further with this fortress thwarting his lines of communications. On April 13-14, he attempted to storm Tobruk and was beaten back. He failed again on April 16-17. Meanwhile, the bulk of his troops were driving on Egypt and captured Fort Capuzzo. For the third time, from April 30-May 4, Rommel assaulted Tobruk and was again driven off. Now he faced the same dilemma that O'Connor had months earlier driving in the opposite direction: his main forces were almost out of fuel, and therefore were forced to halt at the border. A lull descended on the desert war.
At this point Winston Churchill decided on a bold move to destroy Rommel once and for all, before he could grow stronger. A huge reinforcement of tanks was sent to Egypt, depleting England of their supply. Meanwhile Rommel radioed Berlin- send me four more panzer divisions, and I can take Egypt right now. Halder, Chief of Staff, thought he crazy. Mussolini objected; the Germans were only supposed to reinforce Libya, not take Egypt! That honor belonged to the Italian army. Hitler hesitated, and the chance was lost.
One RN ship carrying tanks sank, the other four made it to Alexandria on May 12 with 238 tanks. These were thrown immediately into what Wavell called "Operation Battleaxe." But Wavell was missing his great General, the innovative Richard O'Connor. So the task for defeating Rommel was given to Beresford-Peirse, an unimaginative soldier who had never commanded armor. It was on this soldier now that the British, under Churchill's direct orders from London, expected to gain a decisive victory in North Africa. Peirse planned a frontal assault against Fort Capuzzo and the pass of Halfaya, nicknamed "Hellfire."
The battle of Hellfire Pass was about to begin.
After training his panzer troops in conditions to that would simulate the desert, Rommel arrived in Tripoli in late February, 1941. The British knew he was coming, but knew almost nothing about him and expected him to consolidate his position before taking any action. They figured he would not attack until late May, at which time they hoped to have more troops to replace the ones Churchill had sent to Greece. Even Hitler had instructed Rommel only to have plans developed for attack by late April.
Instead, Rommel attacked on March 31. His first assault so surprised the British that their entire command at Cyreaica was swept away. Even worse, the one man who might have proved to be Rommel's equal, General O'Connor, was captured in this initial battle!
With great delight, Rommel flew to the site of victory in his Stork (a small aircraft similar to a Piper Club) and instructed his soldiers to present the famed captured British general. Rommel was extremely courteous to O'Connor, complimenting him on his exploits "which I have studied in great detail". He saw a pair of huge sand and sun goggles, which had belonged to O'Connor, and said, "Booty of war- permissible, even for a General!" Laughing, he adjusted the goggles above the gold braided rim of his cap. A legend was born- that of the Desert Fox.
Within less than 2 weeks, Rommel drove the British back 400 miles, all the way to the western edge of Egypt. However, the fortress of Tobruk was still held by Australians. Rommel knew he could not advance further with this fortress thwarting his lines of communications. On April 13-14, he attempted to storm Tobruk and was beaten back. He failed again on April 16-17. Meanwhile, the bulk of his troops were driving on Egypt and captured Fort Capuzzo. For the third time, from April 30-May 4, Rommel assaulted Tobruk and was again driven off. Now he faced the same dilemma that O'Connor had months earlier driving in the opposite direction: his main forces were almost out of fuel, and therefore were forced to halt at the border. A lull descended on the desert war.
At this point Winston Churchill decided on a bold move to destroy Rommel once and for all, before he could grow stronger. A huge reinforcement of tanks was sent to Egypt, depleting England of their supply. Meanwhile Rommel radioed Berlin- send me four more panzer divisions, and I can take Egypt right now. Halder, Chief of Staff, thought he crazy. Mussolini objected; the Germans were only supposed to reinforce Libya, not take Egypt! That honor belonged to the Italian army. Hitler hesitated, and the chance was lost.
One RN ship carrying tanks sank, the other four made it to Alexandria on May 12 with 238 tanks. These were thrown immediately into what Wavell called "Operation Battleaxe." But Wavell was missing his great General, the innovative Richard O'Connor. So the task for defeating Rommel was given to Beresford-Peirse, an unimaginative soldier who had never commanded armor. It was on this soldier now that the British, under Churchill's direct orders from London, expected to gain a decisive victory in North Africa. Peirse planned a frontal assault against Fort Capuzzo and the pass of Halfaya, nicknamed "Hellfire."
The battle of Hellfire Pass was about to begin.
Last edited by a moderator:
Redwes25
Footballguy
At think the interplay of the Russian invasion and the prelude attacks in Yugoslavia have a interplay here b/c without those events those four panzer divisions are probably sent to North Africa and events are much different.
timschochet
Footballguy
The Battle of Hellfire Pass
The main body of the armor and part of the infantry were to swing left towards Capuzzo, while two separate forces were to make a frontal assault on Halfaya. Through this vital pass the coast road climbed up from the sea. One British force would attack from the bottom, the other at the top. Once the breakthrough was achieved, and the armor destroyed, it would be exploited in conjunction with the Tobruk garrison.
It was an orthodox plan, and the British lacked the overwhelming air superiority necessary for a frontal assault. Also, though they outnumbered Rommel, he could reinforce with his troops surrounding Tobruk; the British, who had sent everything forward could not. Rommel realized that the crucial point of the battle was the pass, and he put both of his new 88 mm guns there.
The assault into Halfaya pass was led by 13 huge "Matilda" tanks. Peirse had ordered that the tanks could not begin moving until the artillery was ready to fire, and this was delayed past dawn when sand got into one of the batteries. This was the example of too orthodox thinking; when Peirse noticed the delay, he should have sent the tanks forward anyhow; instead, he waited until all was ready. We shall see this sort of thinking lose battles again and again, both on land and sea. The victorious general is often the one who changes his plans when the situation changes. By the time the tanks were finally ready to go, the Germans were prepared. The 88s tore the Matildas to shreds. Of the 13, only one survived.
Meanwhile, the main force took Fort Capuzzo, which Rommel had left only slightly defended. However, a brigade of the medium Cruiser tanks attempting to turn Rommel's right flank blundered into his antitank trap on the Hafid Ridge. Checked, they paused, then resumed the advance. When panzers appeared to their left, they withdrew. This little adventure had lost the British roughly half their tanks. Now Rommel reinforced with his Panzers from Tobruk, and he seized the initiative.
During the next two days Rommel attacked with full armor, but was repulsed from Capuzzo. Peirce held a hasty staff conference with his men and decided to retreat. Only the stubborn and brave fighting by the tanksmen at Capuzzo saved the British from all being captured or destroyed; they allowed the bulk of the British army to flee. When it was all over, Rommel had recaptured Capuzzo, and the British were back where they had started, minus more than half of their tanks.
Churchill was outraged. He had taken great risks to get these tanks to Egypt. He had depleted his supply. He expected victory, and here was a stunning defeat. Churchill blamed Wavell. In a move he later regretted (per his memoirs) he replaced Wavell with Sir Claude Auchinleck, who was currently serving in India. Churchill's orders to Auchinleck were, "Do whatever must be done, but destroy Rommel!" The date was June 21, 1941. The next day, Germany attacked Russia.
Redwes, it's all yous.
The main body of the armor and part of the infantry were to swing left towards Capuzzo, while two separate forces were to make a frontal assault on Halfaya. Through this vital pass the coast road climbed up from the sea. One British force would attack from the bottom, the other at the top. Once the breakthrough was achieved, and the armor destroyed, it would be exploited in conjunction with the Tobruk garrison.
It was an orthodox plan, and the British lacked the overwhelming air superiority necessary for a frontal assault. Also, though they outnumbered Rommel, he could reinforce with his troops surrounding Tobruk; the British, who had sent everything forward could not. Rommel realized that the crucial point of the battle was the pass, and he put both of his new 88 mm guns there.
The assault into Halfaya pass was led by 13 huge "Matilda" tanks. Peirse had ordered that the tanks could not begin moving until the artillery was ready to fire, and this was delayed past dawn when sand got into one of the batteries. This was the example of too orthodox thinking; when Peirse noticed the delay, he should have sent the tanks forward anyhow; instead, he waited until all was ready. We shall see this sort of thinking lose battles again and again, both on land and sea. The victorious general is often the one who changes his plans when the situation changes. By the time the tanks were finally ready to go, the Germans were prepared. The 88s tore the Matildas to shreds. Of the 13, only one survived.
Meanwhile, the main force took Fort Capuzzo, which Rommel had left only slightly defended. However, a brigade of the medium Cruiser tanks attempting to turn Rommel's right flank blundered into his antitank trap on the Hafid Ridge. Checked, they paused, then resumed the advance. When panzers appeared to their left, they withdrew. This little adventure had lost the British roughly half their tanks. Now Rommel reinforced with his Panzers from Tobruk, and he seized the initiative.
During the next two days Rommel attacked with full armor, but was repulsed from Capuzzo. Peirce held a hasty staff conference with his men and decided to retreat. Only the stubborn and brave fighting by the tanksmen at Capuzzo saved the British from all being captured or destroyed; they allowed the bulk of the British army to flee. When it was all over, Rommel had recaptured Capuzzo, and the British were back where they had started, minus more than half of their tanks.
Churchill was outraged. He had taken great risks to get these tanks to Egypt. He had depleted his supply. He expected victory, and here was a stunning defeat. Churchill blamed Wavell. In a move he later regretted (per his memoirs) he replaced Wavell with Sir Claude Auchinleck, who was currently serving in India. Churchill's orders to Auchinleck were, "Do whatever must be done, but destroy Rommel!" The date was June 21, 1941. The next day, Germany attacked Russia.
Redwes, it's all yous.
timschochet
Footballguy
I am now going to let Redwes relate the main details of the invasion of Russia. If he wants or needs it, I will back him up. I plan on mixing in narratives about the Einsatzgruppen, the Atlantic Charter, the Manhattan Project, and the duel between Auchinleck and Rommel. As the narrative approaches December of 1941, I will backtrack and discuss the rise of Japan and Japanese-American relations up to this point.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
As has been said, no plan survives contact with the enemy. The nature of war had changed greatly since the Blitzkrieg showed what armor could do. Some commanders still persisted in thinking that tanks were artillery with wheels. The value of the tank was in the breakthrough. This is something that Guderian and Rommel and Patton understood.
Last edited by a moderator:
TwinTurbo
Footballguy
Yes thanks for this thread. Great stuff.Thanks, timmy et al, for doing this.
Redwes25
Footballguy
Operation Barborossa - 1st Stage
As Tim mentioned, German operations in Greece and Yogoslavia delayed the attack by just over a month. A long muddy season in Russia also contributed to the delay. How much this would contribute to the German defeat is up for debate.
On June 22, 1941 at 3:15 am the German artillery bombardment began and select bombing raids occurred. At dawn just over 1,000 aircraft struck the Soviet Airfields with the goal of destroying the Red Airforce. In the morning of first day of the battle, the Soviet Union lost over 1,200 aircraft and would lose over 3,000 in the first 3 days of the war. As a comparison the German’s lost 35 plane on the first day. The Germans would have virtual air superiority for much of the first year of the conflict. In addition, surprise was complete and very few soldiers on the border had any warning that the war had begun.
Army Group North - Led by the fourth Panzer group, Army Group North would swept rapidly through Lithuania and Lativia. The Fourth Panzer group would bypass the 3d and 14th mechanized corps which were defeated piecemeal as they lacked communication and supplies. By July 26th the Panzer units had reached the Dvina and seized the bridges across it while they waited for the rest of the Army to catch up on foot.
Army Group Center - In the center, the giant pincer movement by the 2nd and 3rd Panzer groups described above was a complete success and by June 27th the two group met up in Minsk having surrounded three soviet armies. In fact these units comprised the soviet western front which basically ceased to exist and over 400,000 soviets were trapped. However, there were flaws in the attack and many troops escaped to fight another day as the German’s were not able to bring the infantry units relying on foot and horse to help seal up all of the troops. These encirclements would also become bloody battles as the Russian fought to the death with orders from Stalin not to surrender. In addition, Hitler ordered the armor to stop as he did not want to risk it by pushing ahead by itself giving the Soviets time to regroup.
Army Group South - The German’s faced fierce resistance and the 1st Panzer group and its 600 tanks was counterattacked by 5 Soviet mechanized corps and over 1,000 tanks. The Germans would succeed after a week of bloody fighting but the 1st Panzer group and the Army Group South would be weakened tto the point that it would need help of Army Group Center to take the rest of the Ukraine.
The first week of the conflict cost the Russian’s 600,000 casualties.
As Tim mentioned, German operations in Greece and Yogoslavia delayed the attack by just over a month. A long muddy season in Russia also contributed to the delay. How much this would contribute to the German defeat is up for debate.
On June 22, 1941 at 3:15 am the German artillery bombardment began and select bombing raids occurred. At dawn just over 1,000 aircraft struck the Soviet Airfields with the goal of destroying the Red Airforce. In the morning of first day of the battle, the Soviet Union lost over 1,200 aircraft and would lose over 3,000 in the first 3 days of the war. As a comparison the German’s lost 35 plane on the first day. The Germans would have virtual air superiority for much of the first year of the conflict. In addition, surprise was complete and very few soldiers on the border had any warning that the war had begun.
Army Group North - Led by the fourth Panzer group, Army Group North would swept rapidly through Lithuania and Lativia. The Fourth Panzer group would bypass the 3d and 14th mechanized corps which were defeated piecemeal as they lacked communication and supplies. By July 26th the Panzer units had reached the Dvina and seized the bridges across it while they waited for the rest of the Army to catch up on foot.
Army Group Center - In the center, the giant pincer movement by the 2nd and 3rd Panzer groups described above was a complete success and by June 27th the two group met up in Minsk having surrounded three soviet armies. In fact these units comprised the soviet western front which basically ceased to exist and over 400,000 soviets were trapped. However, there were flaws in the attack and many troops escaped to fight another day as the German’s were not able to bring the infantry units relying on foot and horse to help seal up all of the troops. These encirclements would also become bloody battles as the Russian fought to the death with orders from Stalin not to surrender. In addition, Hitler ordered the armor to stop as he did not want to risk it by pushing ahead by itself giving the Soviets time to regroup.
Army Group South - The German’s faced fierce resistance and the 1st Panzer group and its 600 tanks was counterattacked by 5 Soviet mechanized corps and over 1,000 tanks. The Germans would succeed after a week of bloody fighting but the 1st Panzer group and the Army Group South would be weakened tto the point that it would need help of Army Group Center to take the rest of the Ukraine.
The first week of the conflict cost the Russian’s 600,000 casualties.
timschochet
Footballguy
600,000 casualties in one week. That's a stunning number. 200 x 9/11. 12 x our losses in Vietnam in the entire conflict. And this was only the beginning. Unreal.
Are those KIA/MIA or total casulties?
SofaKings
Footballguy
Probably KIA/MIA/POW
Ozymandias
Footballguy
By the way, the Russians were not surprised that Hitler attacked them. They were surprised at when. Hitler had made his intentions clear in Mein Kampf, written when he was in prison in 1925. Or at least, that's when he started it. Millions of Germans had read the book, and Hitler had made it very clear that Germany needed living space to the East, and that the Slavs were some kind inferior race. So the Soviet Union had been preparing for war, but they thought they would have more time.
It is interesting that Stalin, who was devious and cunning and ruthless, seemed to be taken in by someone who shared his devious cunning and cruel nature. He did not think that Germany would attack right then.
It is interesting that Stalin, who was devious and cunning and ruthless, seemed to be taken in by someone who shared his devious cunning and cruel nature. He did not think that Germany would attack right then.
In many of the places the Germans went through, especially in Belarussia and Ukraine, the locals aided the invaders agaisnt the Russians because they had been treated so badly by the Soviets and Stalin. This collaboration would then come back to bite them in the butt when the Russians returned later in the war. IIRC, the Wehrmacht incorporated several Belarussian divisions into it's Order of Battle as the war went on.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
Correct. But the Nazis wasted the opportunity to have huge numbers of them come over to the German side because the invading troops were closely followed by the SS extermination groups. As soon as that happened, resistance stiffened.
timschochet
Footballguy
The Einsatzgruppen
Behind each one of the Army Groups followed the Einsatzgruppen (Special Action Groups) with a specific mission that had been ordered directly by Adolf Hitler: Seek out all political commissars and other Communist officials. Seek out all Jews. Kill them all.
In terms of the Jews, this seemed a near impossible task. The area that the Germans were entering, especially that of Army Group C, held the highest concentration of Jews in the world. These were the Jews of "Fiddler on the Roof", who had been put into the area known as the Pale (Southwestern Russia) on order of Catherine the Great. Though decimated by progroms, emigration to America (and to a much lesser extent, Palestine) and dispersion across Russia with the coming of the revolution, the bulk had remained where they were.
The Einsatzgruppen were methodical. They ordered the Jews separated, and marched away from the towns to open areas where they were ordered to build ditches. Then they were stripped naked and made to stand in the ditches. Men, women, children, babies. Then the Germans opened fire. The largest such killing in a single day took place outside Kiev, once it was taken, at a ravine known as Babi Yar (Grandmother's Pits). Over 33,000 were killed in one day.
Who were the Special Action Groups? It would be somewhat comforting to relate that they were barbarians like the hordes of Ghenghis Khan or Atilla the Hun, slaughtering as they went and making piles of heads. But the truth is perhaps more horrifying, as it demonstrates what sociologist Hannah Arendt later termed "The Banalilty of Evil"- they were ordinary men. Among them were businessmen, doctors, ministers, and lifelong civil servants. For the most part these men were college educated. For the most part they were married, with children. For the most part they were churchgoers, and had been given religious and moral instruction. Yet they had been taught that these people were enemies of the Reich, who must be exterminated. They obeyed.
But there were too many Jews, and too many bullets were being expended. Himmler and Heydrich decided to search for other methods.
Behind each one of the Army Groups followed the Einsatzgruppen (Special Action Groups) with a specific mission that had been ordered directly by Adolf Hitler: Seek out all political commissars and other Communist officials. Seek out all Jews. Kill them all.
In terms of the Jews, this seemed a near impossible task. The area that the Germans were entering, especially that of Army Group C, held the highest concentration of Jews in the world. These were the Jews of "Fiddler on the Roof", who had been put into the area known as the Pale (Southwestern Russia) on order of Catherine the Great. Though decimated by progroms, emigration to America (and to a much lesser extent, Palestine) and dispersion across Russia with the coming of the revolution, the bulk had remained where they were.
The Einsatzgruppen were methodical. They ordered the Jews separated, and marched away from the towns to open areas where they were ordered to build ditches. Then they were stripped naked and made to stand in the ditches. Men, women, children, babies. Then the Germans opened fire. The largest such killing in a single day took place outside Kiev, once it was taken, at a ravine known as Babi Yar (Grandmother's Pits). Over 33,000 were killed in one day.
Who were the Special Action Groups? It would be somewhat comforting to relate that they were barbarians like the hordes of Ghenghis Khan or Atilla the Hun, slaughtering as they went and making piles of heads. But the truth is perhaps more horrifying, as it demonstrates what sociologist Hannah Arendt later termed "The Banalilty of Evil"- they were ordinary men. Among them were businessmen, doctors, ministers, and lifelong civil servants. For the most part these men were college educated. For the most part they were married, with children. For the most part they were churchgoers, and had been given religious and moral instruction. Yet they had been taught that these people were enemies of the Reich, who must be exterminated. They obeyed.
But there were too many Jews, and too many bullets were being expended. Himmler and Heydrich decided to search for other methods.
Last edited by a moderator:
higgins
Footballguy
:( This just ruined my day, but I'm still glad I read it...
timschochet
Footballguy
The Green Folder
In the Nuremberg Trials there was a document referred to as the "Green Folder" of Reichsmarshall Hermann Göring. This was the master policy directive for the economic exploitation of the conquered Soviet Union. The implications of this document was the death by starvation of millions of Slavic people, something that partially came to pass in the Holocaust, the neglect of Soviet soldiers captured by the Nazis which led to huge mortality rates, and the general expropriation of food in the occupied areas of the Soviet Union
Plan "Oldenburg" (Goering's "Green Folder") was the code-name of the economic subsection of the planned attack of the USSR.
Following the approval of Hitler of the Operation Barbarossa plan, the Fuhrer instructed Reichsmarshall Goering to develop a plan for the future exploitation of conquered territory in the East. Under Goering's leadership, a plan known as Oldenburg was created to include the seizing for the service of the Reich all stocks of raw materials and large industrial enterprises in the territory between the Vistula and the Urals. According to this plan the most valuable manufacturing equipment was to be sent to the Reich and that which was not sent to Germany would be destroyed. The European part of the Soviet Union would be economically decentralized and be made an agricultural appendage of Germany.
The original plan was approved at a secret meeting on March 1, 1941. Over the next two months the plan was flushed out in detail and finally adopted on April 29, 1941. A headquarters was formed to coordinate the "Oldenburg" plan.
According to the plan, the territory of the Soviet Union would be divided into four economic Inspectorates (Leningrad, Moscow, Kiev, and Baku) with 23 economic commandants, as well as 12 offices. Subsequently, under the plan, the European part of the USSR would be split into seven states, each of which was to be economically dependent on Germany. The Baltic territories would be made into protectorates of Germany.
A separate committee was formed to organize the collection of food in the occupied territories, as per Backe's Hunger Plan. It was tasked with ensuring that by 1942, the German armed forces would be fully nourished by the resources of the USSR, without taking into account the needs of its population.
In accordance with the order of the Supreme Command Chief of Staff of the Wehrmacht Wilhelm Keitel (dated June 16, 1941), the main economic challenge for the territories seized by the Soviet Union, was described as "an immediate and full exploitation of the occupied areas in favor of the war economy of Germany, particularly in the areas of food and oil".
Reichsmarshall Goering, directly supervising the "Oldenburg" headquarters, wrote:
In the East, I intend to loot and pillage effectively. All that may be suitable for the Germans in the East, should be extracted and brought to Germany immediately.
At the beginning of World War II in the East, July 15, 1941, he wrote in his "green folder":
Using the occupation of areas should be made primarily in the areas of food and oil sectors of economy. Get to Germany as much food and oil as possible - that is the main economic goal of the campaign.
Initially, the German military leadership believed that it was not necessary during the war to rebuild the industry and use the natural wealth of the Soviet Union and that a policy of seizing finished products and raw materials in warehouses would be sufficient.
Subsequently they made an accounting of industry and mines to ensure their safety and to establish civil administration of captured territories.
However, when the expected rapid end of the war did not materialize and Germany had suffered great losses in manpower, equipment and weapons, established stocks started to quickly deplete, and the German leadership urgently started to develop a plan of economic use of the occupied territories, during the war itself. Thus German leadership had to abandon the implementation of the plan Oldenburg, recognizing its unsuitability.
After the war ended, the activities of Staff Oldenburg was the subject of consideration and condemnation at the Nuremberg Tribunal.
In the Nuremberg Trials there was a document referred to as the "Green Folder" of Reichsmarshall Hermann Göring. This was the master policy directive for the economic exploitation of the conquered Soviet Union. The implications of this document was the death by starvation of millions of Slavic people, something that partially came to pass in the Holocaust, the neglect of Soviet soldiers captured by the Nazis which led to huge mortality rates, and the general expropriation of food in the occupied areas of the Soviet Union
Plan "Oldenburg" (Goering's "Green Folder") was the code-name of the economic subsection of the planned attack of the USSR.
Following the approval of Hitler of the Operation Barbarossa plan, the Fuhrer instructed Reichsmarshall Goering to develop a plan for the future exploitation of conquered territory in the East. Under Goering's leadership, a plan known as Oldenburg was created to include the seizing for the service of the Reich all stocks of raw materials and large industrial enterprises in the territory between the Vistula and the Urals. According to this plan the most valuable manufacturing equipment was to be sent to the Reich and that which was not sent to Germany would be destroyed. The European part of the Soviet Union would be economically decentralized and be made an agricultural appendage of Germany.
The original plan was approved at a secret meeting on March 1, 1941. Over the next two months the plan was flushed out in detail and finally adopted on April 29, 1941. A headquarters was formed to coordinate the "Oldenburg" plan.
According to the plan, the territory of the Soviet Union would be divided into four economic Inspectorates (Leningrad, Moscow, Kiev, and Baku) with 23 economic commandants, as well as 12 offices. Subsequently, under the plan, the European part of the USSR would be split into seven states, each of which was to be economically dependent on Germany. The Baltic territories would be made into protectorates of Germany.
A separate committee was formed to organize the collection of food in the occupied territories, as per Backe's Hunger Plan. It was tasked with ensuring that by 1942, the German armed forces would be fully nourished by the resources of the USSR, without taking into account the needs of its population.
In accordance with the order of the Supreme Command Chief of Staff of the Wehrmacht Wilhelm Keitel (dated June 16, 1941), the main economic challenge for the territories seized by the Soviet Union, was described as "an immediate and full exploitation of the occupied areas in favor of the war economy of Germany, particularly in the areas of food and oil".
Reichsmarshall Goering, directly supervising the "Oldenburg" headquarters, wrote:
In the East, I intend to loot and pillage effectively. All that may be suitable for the Germans in the East, should be extracted and brought to Germany immediately.
At the beginning of World War II in the East, July 15, 1941, he wrote in his "green folder":
Using the occupation of areas should be made primarily in the areas of food and oil sectors of economy. Get to Germany as much food and oil as possible - that is the main economic goal of the campaign.
Initially, the German military leadership believed that it was not necessary during the war to rebuild the industry and use the natural wealth of the Soviet Union and that a policy of seizing finished products and raw materials in warehouses would be sufficient.
Subsequently they made an accounting of industry and mines to ensure their safety and to establish civil administration of captured territories.
However, when the expected rapid end of the war did not materialize and Germany had suffered great losses in manpower, equipment and weapons, established stocks started to quickly deplete, and the German leadership urgently started to develop a plan of economic use of the occupied territories, during the war itself. Thus German leadership had to abandon the implementation of the plan Oldenburg, recognizing its unsuitability.
After the war ended, the activities of Staff Oldenburg was the subject of consideration and condemnation at the Nuremberg Tribunal.
timschochet
Footballguy
Sorry. My purpose is not to dwell too much on the Holocaust and the other horrors. We could spend pages and pages on this stuff alone, and I don't think it's really necessary. But the main events should be related.
Last edited by a moderator:
The numbers have to be included to do it justice.Sorry. My purpose is not to dwell too much on the Holocaust and the other horrors. We could spend pages and pages on this stuff alone, and I don't think it's really necessary. But the main events should be related.This just ruined my day, but I'm still glad I read it...
Redwes25
Footballguy
The vast bulk is POW.
timschochet
Footballguy
This is true, but let's be careful and not define these "prisoners of war" in the same way we would others. For instance, British and French military captured by the Germans were placed into POW camps, and for the most part were treated with all rights as accorded by the Geneva Convention. They were placed into barracks (Stalags), decently fed and not tortured. (There are some exceptions which we may get to, but this is the general rule.)The Germans did not recognize the Russians as soldiers and did not use the Geneva Convention in regard to them. The Russian POWs were generally herded into large camps and given no food, or very little. The idea was to starve to death all but those who proved themselves the hardiest, and these were eventually shipped to Poland and Germany for slave labor. These camps, as described by the very few survivors, were beyond Hell. At night, the living would wander among the new dead and feed themselves on their bodies before they decomposed.
Very quickly the Russians learned that it was better to die in battle than to surrender to the Germans.
Part of that was due to Stalin's own decrees. Anyone attempting to surrender would be shot, anyone refusing to shoot a comrade who was surrendering would be shot. The families of deserters were killed or sent to prison camps... In many cases the Soviet troops were choosing between death in a hopeless battle and death for your entire family (and likely your own death in a POW camp).
Workhorse
Footballguy
Excellent thread so far, folks.
I'll try to sprinkle in some tidbits from my grandfather's war journal when you get to Fall '42 and North Africa. He was a clerk with the 9th Evac Hospital which spent time in North Africa, Italy, Southern France and Germany. His journal had excerpts that were published during and after the war and some of his descriptions of war life are quite interesting. His brother was a B-17 navigator who got shot down over Germany in the waning days of the war in '45 and spent some time as a POW.
I'll try to sprinkle in some tidbits from my grandfather's war journal when you get to Fall '42 and North Africa. He was a clerk with the 9th Evac Hospital which spent time in North Africa, Italy, Southern France and Germany. His journal had excerpts that were published during and after the war and some of his descriptions of war life are quite interesting. His brother was a B-17 navigator who got shot down over Germany in the waning days of the war in '45 and spent some time as a POW.
timschochet
Footballguy
This would be great, Workhorse! I look forward to reading it.
timschochet
Footballguy
World Reaction to the slaughters
Surviving Jews, Russians, Ukranians, and even some Germans risked their lives to escape beyond the front lines to Moscow, and also to neutral countries such as Switzerland, and from there to London. Their purpose was to give the world press the story of the slaughters of the Einsatzgruppen. Statements were taken, photographs, and in one case, even film of the Babi Yar slaughter, which had been hidden in the ###### of a Jew who managed to get to London.
The reaction of the press was skeptical. Most news editors remembered how British propaganda had fabricated horror stories of Germany turning Belgians into soap in the last war. They decided that these refugees were NKVD plants attempting to gain sympathy among the Americans for the Russian plight. To a man, they refused to report the stories. "Besides", said Geoffrey Dawson, editor of the London Times, "Nobody wants to read about the Jews. Everyone is sick of hearing about it."
In desperation, the World Zionists, led by Chaim Weizmann, approached the British Government and pleaded with them to open up Palestine to Jewish emigration- it had been shut tight since 1939. The British refused- they had enough trouble on their hands in Egypt and North Africa and they were anxious not to anger the Palestinians. A pathetic old, creaking Turkish ship called the Struma carrying 800 Jewish families crammed together like sardines, (all refugees from the Nazis who had found their way to Turkey but were not allowed to stay there) attempted to land in Haifa but was blocked entry by the Royal Navy. The ship eventually drownedl only 3 survived.
In America, Jewish leaders begged FDR to allow more Jewish refugees to emigrate to the United States. He demurred, stating that this was an issue for Congress. They then pleaded with him to make a public statement denouncing the Nazi atrocitries in the Soviet Union. FDR agreed to this, but made no statement for another 6 months. When it finally was released, it was somewhat tepid and made very little press.
I shall return to the issue of refugees later in the narrative.
Surviving Jews, Russians, Ukranians, and even some Germans risked their lives to escape beyond the front lines to Moscow, and also to neutral countries such as Switzerland, and from there to London. Their purpose was to give the world press the story of the slaughters of the Einsatzgruppen. Statements were taken, photographs, and in one case, even film of the Babi Yar slaughter, which had been hidden in the ###### of a Jew who managed to get to London.
The reaction of the press was skeptical. Most news editors remembered how British propaganda had fabricated horror stories of Germany turning Belgians into soap in the last war. They decided that these refugees were NKVD plants attempting to gain sympathy among the Americans for the Russian plight. To a man, they refused to report the stories. "Besides", said Geoffrey Dawson, editor of the London Times, "Nobody wants to read about the Jews. Everyone is sick of hearing about it."
In desperation, the World Zionists, led by Chaim Weizmann, approached the British Government and pleaded with them to open up Palestine to Jewish emigration- it had been shut tight since 1939. The British refused- they had enough trouble on their hands in Egypt and North Africa and they were anxious not to anger the Palestinians. A pathetic old, creaking Turkish ship called the Struma carrying 800 Jewish families crammed together like sardines, (all refugees from the Nazis who had found their way to Turkey but were not allowed to stay there) attempted to land in Haifa but was blocked entry by the Royal Navy. The ship eventually drownedl only 3 survived.
In America, Jewish leaders begged FDR to allow more Jewish refugees to emigrate to the United States. He demurred, stating that this was an issue for Congress. They then pleaded with him to make a public statement denouncing the Nazi atrocitries in the Soviet Union. FDR agreed to this, but made no statement for another 6 months. When it finally was released, it was somewhat tepid and made very little press.
I shall return to the issue of refugees later in the narrative.
Redwes25
Footballguy
Operation Barborossa - 2nd Stage Smolensk
On July 3rd, General Franz Halder head of the OKH which had overall operational control of all German forces in the Eastern Front said “It is probably no overstatement to say that the Russian Campaign has been won in the space of two weeks.” Given what the German’s knew about Russian formations this was not a far off statement given that the entire Russia center had collapsed and believed only remnants of already defeated forces lay ahead of them. This could not have been more wrong as in addition to the remnants of the Western Front forces and the reserve armies previously mentioned two newly mobilized armies were formed behind Smolensk on the approaches to Moscow.
Army Group Center and the Battle of Smolensk - On July 3 the Germans would begin the March to Moscow with the immediate goal being Smolensk. Once again the German’s would attempt a giant envelopment hoping to net what they thought were the last Soviet troops in front of Moscow in a second giant pocket. However, Soviet resistance continued stiffen and the Germans faced a series of counterattacks as the 2nd Panzer pushed to within 11 miles of Smolensk by July 11th at the same time the counterattacks reached a crescendo when 20 divisions struck the Germans. A combination of armor and airpower caused the Soviet attacks to fail and Guderian was able to take Smolensk by July 16th but the Russian’s continued to stiffen resistance. The 2nd pincer led by the 3rd panzer under Hoth did not move as quickly and also faced continuous counterattacks but by the July 18th the two pincers were within a dozen miles of each other but the Russian’s held open the narrow for 8 days and 200,000 soviet troops escaped. It would take another ten days to close the pocket and Soviet Unions would continue to breakout from the trap. It was becoming clear to the German’s that the strategy of encircling Soviet troops was not working as they could not keep the doors closed and fighting within the pockets were costing the German’s valuable time, men and supplies. At the start of August, the German drive on Moscow had basically ground to a halt and the focus would move to securing the flanks of army group center. Russian counter attacks would continue along the Moscow access and the German’s would be forced to give up their bridgehead across the Dneaper river on September 8th.
On July 3rd, General Franz Halder head of the OKH which had overall operational control of all German forces in the Eastern Front said “It is probably no overstatement to say that the Russian Campaign has been won in the space of two weeks.” Given what the German’s knew about Russian formations this was not a far off statement given that the entire Russia center had collapsed and believed only remnants of already defeated forces lay ahead of them. This could not have been more wrong as in addition to the remnants of the Western Front forces and the reserve armies previously mentioned two newly mobilized armies were formed behind Smolensk on the approaches to Moscow.
Army Group Center and the Battle of Smolensk - On July 3 the Germans would begin the March to Moscow with the immediate goal being Smolensk. Once again the German’s would attempt a giant envelopment hoping to net what they thought were the last Soviet troops in front of Moscow in a second giant pocket. However, Soviet resistance continued stiffen and the Germans faced a series of counterattacks as the 2nd Panzer pushed to within 11 miles of Smolensk by July 11th at the same time the counterattacks reached a crescendo when 20 divisions struck the Germans. A combination of armor and airpower caused the Soviet attacks to fail and Guderian was able to take Smolensk by July 16th but the Russian’s continued to stiffen resistance. The 2nd pincer led by the 3rd panzer under Hoth did not move as quickly and also faced continuous counterattacks but by the July 18th the two pincers were within a dozen miles of each other but the Russian’s held open the narrow for 8 days and 200,000 soviet troops escaped. It would take another ten days to close the pocket and Soviet Unions would continue to breakout from the trap. It was becoming clear to the German’s that the strategy of encircling Soviet troops was not working as they could not keep the doors closed and fighting within the pockets were costing the German’s valuable time, men and supplies. At the start of August, the German drive on Moscow had basically ground to a halt and the focus would move to securing the flanks of army group center. Russian counter attacks would continue along the Moscow access and the German’s would be forced to give up their bridgehead across the Dneaper river on September 8th.
The novel "City of Thieves" about the Siege of Leningrad has a scene where the two heroes (both Russians from Leningrad) are captured by the Germans outside the city. They are placed with a much larger group of other captured Russian peasants and citizens. A German officer comes to the group and gives them all a copy of a Russian newspaper and tells them that the ones who can read will be sent to work in a baracks doing various clerk type jobs for the Germans. The ones who can't read will be marched 100 km to work in a steel mill, almost certain death as the workers were essentially slaves. Both the heroes can read, but intentionally show that they can't (one even speaks German) because they figure it's easier to escape from the march to the steel mill. So they are placed in the group of non-readers. Those who could read all seem smug and happy about how they will be comfortable and well fed working for the Germans. Then as the non-readers march away, the trucks pull up and troops with machine pistols get out and gun down all the readers. The German officer makes a remark about how stupid the Russians are to fall for such a trick, as anyone who could read was obviously a Party member and an intellectual and thus must be liquidated.BTW, "City of Thieves" is a very good novel, well worth anyone's time to read it. It's not to long and tells a very engaging story. I recommend it highly. The author is David Benioff.timschochet said:
Copeman
Footballguy
Today is Friday, August 28, 2009
Today in
World War II History
1941 - In occupied Ukraine, more than 23,000 Hungarian Jews were murdered by the Gestapo.
Random World War II Quote
"Soldiers of the Reich! This day you are to take part in an offensive of such importance that the whole future of the war may depend on its outcome."
Adolf Hitler - July 5, 1943
Today in
World War II History
1941 - In occupied Ukraine, more than 23,000 Hungarian Jews were murdered by the Gestapo.
Random World War II Quote
"Soldiers of the Reich! This day you are to take part in an offensive of such importance that the whole future of the war may depend on its outcome."
Adolf Hitler - July 5, 1943
Ozymandias
Footballguy
STALIN'S REACTION TO THE GERMAN INVASION
Stalin believed that war with Germany was inevitable. In fact, when he spoke to the Military Academy in May of 1941, he told the graduates that they would be called on to fight the Germans, and that they had to provide the leadership necessary to defend the homeland.
However, in spite of all the information given to him by the intelligence services, and by his military advisers, Stalin believed that Germany would not attack the Soviet Union until Britain had been defeated. So he went to bed on the night of June 21, fully confident that for the moment, the Soviet Union was safe.
When word was brought to him about the German invasion, he thought it must be some rogue general who had launched some attack, and refused to believe that it was a full scale invasion. What happened next is the subject of some controversy. Krushchev and Mikoyan claimed that he retreated to his dascha and was in despair and almost in a daze. However, this is controversial because there were some orders issued at that time which appeared to come from Stalin. However, there is no doubt that it was a severe shock to Stalin, particularly since he believed implicitly in his own judgment, and did not usually take advice from others.
Stalin believed that war with Germany was inevitable. In fact, when he spoke to the Military Academy in May of 1941, he told the graduates that they would be called on to fight the Germans, and that they had to provide the leadership necessary to defend the homeland.
However, in spite of all the information given to him by the intelligence services, and by his military advisers, Stalin believed that Germany would not attack the Soviet Union until Britain had been defeated. So he went to bed on the night of June 21, fully confident that for the moment, the Soviet Union was safe.
When word was brought to him about the German invasion, he thought it must be some rogue general who had launched some attack, and refused to believe that it was a full scale invasion. What happened next is the subject of some controversy. Krushchev and Mikoyan claimed that he retreated to his dascha and was in despair and almost in a daze. However, this is controversial because there were some orders issued at that time which appeared to come from Stalin. However, there is no doubt that it was a severe shock to Stalin, particularly since he believed implicitly in his own judgment, and did not usually take advice from others.
Similar threads
