Ozymandias
Footballguy
And at the same time, Churchill, while lamenting the loss of life in Pearl Harbor, said that he went to bed that night knowing that with the entry of the US into the war, ultimate victory would belong to the Allies.
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
World War II (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
timschochet
Footballguy
This is true. His exact words were, "So we had won after all!" This always struck me as strange, because he had no way of knowing that evening if Germany would declare war on the United States.Churchill may have gone to bed December 7 confident of ultimate victory, but starting the next morning he was to receive one crippling shock after another. The first being the sinking of the Prince of Wales. After that, the news got steadily worse.
timschochet
Footballguy
I think we're now jumping too far ahead of the events in Russia. Starting tommorow morning, I'm going to go back and continue with the Siege of Leningrad, the German drive for Moscow, and the Russian counterattacks before continuing with the Japanese narrative. Somewhere I've got to throw in the Gross Wansee conference too. Lots to cover!
Ozymandias
Footballguy
Looks like Redwes faded in the clutch.
timschochet
Footballguy
No worries. He did a great job while he was here. You have too; keep it up! I really enjoy the commentary you are adding to the narratives.
Mjolnirs
Footballguy
Sunday, December 7, 1941 was a home football game of the Redskins. They were playing the Philadelphia Eagles at Griffith Stadium. Kick-off was 2 pm, which is 9 AM Hawaii time. Thus, bombs were falling on Pearl Harbor at kick-off. Many military and naval officers were in the crowd, and almost immediately PA announcements began, "Admiral Bland is asked to report to his office" General Jones is asked to report to his office" etc. No one knew why these announcemnts were made, except those in the press box who could see the wire copy coming over the teletype. The owner of the Redskins would not allow a general announcement of the bombing, prefering to wait until the game was over. People left the stadium and then learned that their world had just changed with the coming of war.
Oh yeah, the Redskins won, and Sammy Baugh was a hero.
From SI.com:
Everyone in Washington, D.C.'s Griffith Stadium that day knew his role. The wives walked in together, chattering like a flock of birds. The 27,102 fans shoved through the turnstiles, ready to shout and clap, to watch and feel. The press box filled with reporters, prepared to scribble their notes. On the field the players tried to keep warm. Some were stars, some weren't. It was the final pro football game of the season for the Washington Redskins and the Philadelphia Eagles. It was quite cold. People stamped their feet. They could see their breath.
No one was thinking yet about Pearl Harbor. Kickoff was at 2 p.m.—9 a.m. in Hawaii. Bombs had already fallen on the U.S. fleet, men had died, war had come. In the stands, no one knew: The game was still everything. Philadelphia had taken a 7-0 lead on its first drive. Announcements began to pour out of the PA system. Admiral Bland is asked to report to his office.... Captain HX. Fenn is asked to report.... The resident commissioner of the Philippines is urged to report.... "We didn't know what the hell was going on," says Sammy Baugh, the Redskins' quarterback that day. "I had never heard that many announcements one right after another. We felt something was up, but we just kept playing."
Only the boys in the press box had any idea. Just before kickoff an Associated Press reporter named Pat O'Brien got a message ordering him to keep his story short. When O'Brien complained, another message flashed: The Japanese have kicked off. War now! But Redskins president George Marshall wouldn't allow an announcement of Japan's attack during the game, explaining that it would distract the fans. That made Griffith Stadium one of the last outposts of an era that had already slipped away.
The crowd oohed and cheered. When the game—and season—ended with Washington a 20-14 winner, a few hundred fans rushed the goalposts. No one took much notice of Eagles rookie halfback Nick Basca. He hadn't played much all year, making his mark mostly as a kicker and punter, and on this day he'd converted just two extra points. Baugh, with three touchdown passes, was the game's hero.
Then everyone walked out of the stadium: the wives, the future Hall of Famer, the crowd. Outside, newsboys hawked the news. The world tilted; football lost all importance; roles shifted. Women began fearing for their men. Reporters and fans would be soldiers soon. The world would not be divided into players and spectators again for a very long time. "Everybody could feel it," Baugh says.
Baugh went home to Texas and waited for a call from his draft board that never came; he was granted a deferment to stay on his ranch and raise beef cattle. During the war he flew in on the weekends for games.
Nick Basca, meanwhile, had played his final game. A native of tiny Phoenixville, Pa., and a standout at Villanova, Basca enlisted in the Army three days after Pearl Harbor with his younger brother Stephen, who left Europe with three Purple Hearts. Nick was piloting a tank in Gen. George Patton's celebrated Fourth Armored Division in France, when, on Nov. 11, 1944, the tank hit a mine and was blown apart.
In later years no one talked much about Nick's short pro football career. Then, in 1991, 50 years after events had rendered it meaningless, that game between Philadelphia and Washington became everything again. Stephen Basca Jr. says, "My father was lying 60 miles away in a hospital bed when Nick was killed. They recorded on his chart that he had gotten up screaming about the time Nick's tank blew up. [in 1991] my father and I were sitting watching TV, and they showed a clip of that old game. My dad froze in his chair. It was the first time I'd ever seen him cry."
Oh yeah, the Redskins won, and Sammy Baugh was a hero.
From SI.com:
Everyone in Washington, D.C.'s Griffith Stadium that day knew his role. The wives walked in together, chattering like a flock of birds. The 27,102 fans shoved through the turnstiles, ready to shout and clap, to watch and feel. The press box filled with reporters, prepared to scribble their notes. On the field the players tried to keep warm. Some were stars, some weren't. It was the final pro football game of the season for the Washington Redskins and the Philadelphia Eagles. It was quite cold. People stamped their feet. They could see their breath.
No one was thinking yet about Pearl Harbor. Kickoff was at 2 p.m.—9 a.m. in Hawaii. Bombs had already fallen on the U.S. fleet, men had died, war had come. In the stands, no one knew: The game was still everything. Philadelphia had taken a 7-0 lead on its first drive. Announcements began to pour out of the PA system. Admiral Bland is asked to report to his office.... Captain HX. Fenn is asked to report.... The resident commissioner of the Philippines is urged to report.... "We didn't know what the hell was going on," says Sammy Baugh, the Redskins' quarterback that day. "I had never heard that many announcements one right after another. We felt something was up, but we just kept playing."
Only the boys in the press box had any idea. Just before kickoff an Associated Press reporter named Pat O'Brien got a message ordering him to keep his story short. When O'Brien complained, another message flashed: The Japanese have kicked off. War now! But Redskins president George Marshall wouldn't allow an announcement of Japan's attack during the game, explaining that it would distract the fans. That made Griffith Stadium one of the last outposts of an era that had already slipped away.
The crowd oohed and cheered. When the game—and season—ended with Washington a 20-14 winner, a few hundred fans rushed the goalposts. No one took much notice of Eagles rookie halfback Nick Basca. He hadn't played much all year, making his mark mostly as a kicker and punter, and on this day he'd converted just two extra points. Baugh, with three touchdown passes, was the game's hero.
Then everyone walked out of the stadium: the wives, the future Hall of Famer, the crowd. Outside, newsboys hawked the news. The world tilted; football lost all importance; roles shifted. Women began fearing for their men. Reporters and fans would be soldiers soon. The world would not be divided into players and spectators again for a very long time. "Everybody could feel it," Baugh says.
Baugh went home to Texas and waited for a call from his draft board that never came; he was granted a deferment to stay on his ranch and raise beef cattle. During the war he flew in on the weekends for games.
Nick Basca, meanwhile, had played his final game. A native of tiny Phoenixville, Pa., and a standout at Villanova, Basca enlisted in the Army three days after Pearl Harbor with his younger brother Stephen, who left Europe with three Purple Hearts. Nick was piloting a tank in Gen. George Patton's celebrated Fourth Armored Division in France, when, on Nov. 11, 1944, the tank hit a mine and was blown apart.
In later years no one talked much about Nick's short pro football career. Then, in 1991, 50 years after events had rendered it meaningless, that game between Philadelphia and Washington became everything again. Stephen Basca Jr. says, "My father was lying 60 miles away in a hospital bed when Nick was killed. They recorded on his chart that he had gotten up screaming about the time Nick's tank blew up. [in 1991] my father and I were sitting watching TV, and they showed a clip of that old game. My dad froze in his chair. It was the first time I'd ever seen him cry."
timschochet
Footballguy
Great story, DC!
I know that, on the radio, the news in the New York area interrupted another football game being played by the New York Yankees football team. The local station received hundreds of calls complaining that the game was taken off the air, and then there was this call from a man in Manhattan:
"You fooled me with that Martian business, but I'm on to you this time!"
I know that, on the radio, the news in the New York area interrupted another football game being played by the New York Yankees football team. The local station received hundreds of calls complaining that the game was taken off the air, and then there was this call from a man in Manhattan:
"You fooled me with that Martian business, but I'm on to you this time!"
timschochet
Footballguy
The Siege of Leningrad Part One
We now return to the Summer of 1941...
Army Group North was under the command of Marshall Wilhelm Ritter von Leeb. Leeb's orders were to sweep through the Baltic states (Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia) and take Leningrad. After Leningrad was seized, Leeb was supposed to link up with the Finnish army north of the city, and then wheel south to strike at Moscow from the rear, while Rundstedt's Army Group Center attacked from the front. According to the German timetable, Leningrad would fall quickly- Hitler had even scheduled a victory parade there for late July.
St. Petersburg, or Petrograd, as it was called prior to the Revolution, was a modern city by European standards. It was built in 1703 by Peter the Great on a marsh fronting the Finnish borders. From it's conception it was supposed to be a western city- it's architecture and industrial design deliberately modelled after Paris. (Peter was part of a Russian aristocracy which spoke French to each other and disdained their native tongue.) It's citizens never forgot this beginning, and they generally disdained Moscow for it's backwardness and isolation. Though I have never been there (YET) I have been told by people that have that this city is one of the most beautiful on Earth. It was also the home of various revolutions throughout Russian history, including the Soviet one.
Adolf Hitler hated Leningrad. To him, it was even more than Moscow the symbol of Communism. In addition to this, Peter the Great had used the city as a base to extend Russia's power over the Baltic, the very sea which the Germans regarded as their own. Hitler's plan for Leningrad was direct: he would starve it's population to death. If the city surrendered, the Germans would not feed the people living there. If it held out, it would be surrounded by a ring of steel and fire and quickly starved into submission. Once this occurred, then the first plan would be put into effect. After all the people were dead, the city would be destroyed brick by brick.
We now return to the Summer of 1941...
Army Group North was under the command of Marshall Wilhelm Ritter von Leeb. Leeb's orders were to sweep through the Baltic states (Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia) and take Leningrad. After Leningrad was seized, Leeb was supposed to link up with the Finnish army north of the city, and then wheel south to strike at Moscow from the rear, while Rundstedt's Army Group Center attacked from the front. According to the German timetable, Leningrad would fall quickly- Hitler had even scheduled a victory parade there for late July.
St. Petersburg, or Petrograd, as it was called prior to the Revolution, was a modern city by European standards. It was built in 1703 by Peter the Great on a marsh fronting the Finnish borders. From it's conception it was supposed to be a western city- it's architecture and industrial design deliberately modelled after Paris. (Peter was part of a Russian aristocracy which spoke French to each other and disdained their native tongue.) It's citizens never forgot this beginning, and they generally disdained Moscow for it's backwardness and isolation. Though I have never been there (YET) I have been told by people that have that this city is one of the most beautiful on Earth. It was also the home of various revolutions throughout Russian history, including the Soviet one.
Adolf Hitler hated Leningrad. To him, it was even more than Moscow the symbol of Communism. In addition to this, Peter the Great had used the city as a base to extend Russia's power over the Baltic, the very sea which the Germans regarded as their own. Hitler's plan for Leningrad was direct: he would starve it's population to death. If the city surrendered, the Germans would not feed the people living there. If it held out, it would be surrounded by a ring of steel and fire and quickly starved into submission. Once this occurred, then the first plan would be put into effect. After all the people were dead, the city would be destroyed brick by brick.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
It is a beautiful city. On a sunlit summer day, with the sun shining on the water and the buildings modelled on Paris, it comes close to looking like heaven is supposed to look.http://www.starbase1.co.uk/galleries/Photo...lides/ph02.html
timschochet
Footballguy
The Siege of Leningrad Part Two
Defense of Leningrad was given to two Soviet high officials, Commissar Andrei Zhdanov and Marshal Klimint Voroshilov. As per the way things were in Communist Russia, Zhdanov was really in charge. Both men were ruthless, brutal killers. They were cronies of Stalin who had helped engineer the Purges. It must be said that both men were also brave and performed heroically during this incredible ordeal.
The day Molotov announced over the radio that the Germans had invaded, Leningrad went into a panic. Shoppers flooded the grocery stores and bought every item in sight. The population had no confidence whatsoever in the government's ability to feed them. Butter, canned goods, lard, sugar, groats, flour, matches, sausages, salt were all sold out by the end of that day. It is said that all vodka supplies were gone within two hours of the announcement. All banks closed by order of the State within the first few days to prevent collapse from overdrawing. (All banks were government owned, of course.)
But the citizens of Leningrad showed amazing patriotism. In the first week, 212,000 men joined the People's Volunteers. (If you were over the age of 12, becoming a "Volunteer" was compulsory.) NKVD secret police were, of course, everywhere, hunting down suspected saboteurs and Nazi sympathizers. But they needn't have worried. The average Leningrader might have destested the regime (though they would never say so in public) but the news they were hearing from the front of how Germans were treating Russians made them realize that there was no choice but to try to defend the city.
Zhdanov worked tirelessly organizing a second line of defense for the city on the Luga River, 75 miles southwest. More than 30,000 women wielding picks and shovels went there each morning to dig trenches, gun emplacements, and tank traps. Anticipating the Germans quick arrival, more than 400,000 young children were evacuated to the East. (Many of these died en route when their trains were bombed.) Zhdanov also authorized the transhipment of the Hermitage's treasures- paintings and artwork by some of the greatest artists in the history of civilization- back east for the duration of the assault. Zhdanov's main problem was lack of munitions. He transformed all of Leningrad's factories to the task of making weapons. But his low amount of gasoline limited what he could do. He sent panicked messages to Moscow and received the reply, "There are more important fronts than yours. Use your local resources."
Meanwhile, the Northwest Front defending Leningrad was collapsing. The armies, Voroshilov informed Zhdanov, would not make a stand at the Luga. They were fleeing in panic, and clogged the roads already filled with refugees. There was no air support. In desperation, Voroshilov called forward the People's Volunteers from the city itself to make a stand. They had no training, but this did not disturb Voroshilov. As he explained to an approving Zhdanov, at least they were bodies to be thrown in the German path. And indeed, these young "volunteers'" fought bravely and died bravely. German reports at the time express amazement at the young men who were, without strategy, rushing forward to stop to German advance.
This incredible bravery did slow the Germans. But while it was going on, chaos had absorbed the Russian military command. Marshal Timoshenko, apparently desiring to save himself from the eventual wrath of Joseph Stalin since the area he was supposed to defend (all of Northern Russia) was falling apart, began to blame his subordinates for their "treachery". In the midst of the German invasion, he held show trials behind the lines, and had most of his closest adjutants executed for treason.
The Luga Line, as it was called, could not hold the Germans for long. Already Hitler was enraged; the People's Volunteers had delayed his timetable. Finally on August 8, Leeb's panzers broke across the river. The People's Volunteers fled. Their numbers, once at 212,000, had now been reduced to below 30,000. Now the panzers rushed forward, heading straight for Leningrad.
Defense of Leningrad was given to two Soviet high officials, Commissar Andrei Zhdanov and Marshal Klimint Voroshilov. As per the way things were in Communist Russia, Zhdanov was really in charge. Both men were ruthless, brutal killers. They were cronies of Stalin who had helped engineer the Purges. It must be said that both men were also brave and performed heroically during this incredible ordeal.
The day Molotov announced over the radio that the Germans had invaded, Leningrad went into a panic. Shoppers flooded the grocery stores and bought every item in sight. The population had no confidence whatsoever in the government's ability to feed them. Butter, canned goods, lard, sugar, groats, flour, matches, sausages, salt were all sold out by the end of that day. It is said that all vodka supplies were gone within two hours of the announcement. All banks closed by order of the State within the first few days to prevent collapse from overdrawing. (All banks were government owned, of course.)
But the citizens of Leningrad showed amazing patriotism. In the first week, 212,000 men joined the People's Volunteers. (If you were over the age of 12, becoming a "Volunteer" was compulsory.) NKVD secret police were, of course, everywhere, hunting down suspected saboteurs and Nazi sympathizers. But they needn't have worried. The average Leningrader might have destested the regime (though they would never say so in public) but the news they were hearing from the front of how Germans were treating Russians made them realize that there was no choice but to try to defend the city.
Zhdanov worked tirelessly organizing a second line of defense for the city on the Luga River, 75 miles southwest. More than 30,000 women wielding picks and shovels went there each morning to dig trenches, gun emplacements, and tank traps. Anticipating the Germans quick arrival, more than 400,000 young children were evacuated to the East. (Many of these died en route when their trains were bombed.) Zhdanov also authorized the transhipment of the Hermitage's treasures- paintings and artwork by some of the greatest artists in the history of civilization- back east for the duration of the assault. Zhdanov's main problem was lack of munitions. He transformed all of Leningrad's factories to the task of making weapons. But his low amount of gasoline limited what he could do. He sent panicked messages to Moscow and received the reply, "There are more important fronts than yours. Use your local resources."
Meanwhile, the Northwest Front defending Leningrad was collapsing. The armies, Voroshilov informed Zhdanov, would not make a stand at the Luga. They were fleeing in panic, and clogged the roads already filled with refugees. There was no air support. In desperation, Voroshilov called forward the People's Volunteers from the city itself to make a stand. They had no training, but this did not disturb Voroshilov. As he explained to an approving Zhdanov, at least they were bodies to be thrown in the German path. And indeed, these young "volunteers'" fought bravely and died bravely. German reports at the time express amazement at the young men who were, without strategy, rushing forward to stop to German advance.
This incredible bravery did slow the Germans. But while it was going on, chaos had absorbed the Russian military command. Marshal Timoshenko, apparently desiring to save himself from the eventual wrath of Joseph Stalin since the area he was supposed to defend (all of Northern Russia) was falling apart, began to blame his subordinates for their "treachery". In the midst of the German invasion, he held show trials behind the lines, and had most of his closest adjutants executed for treason.
The Luga Line, as it was called, could not hold the Germans for long. Already Hitler was enraged; the People's Volunteers had delayed his timetable. Finally on August 8, Leeb's panzers broke across the river. The People's Volunteers fled. Their numbers, once at 212,000, had now been reduced to below 30,000. Now the panzers rushed forward, heading straight for Leningrad.
timschochet
Footballguy
The Siege of Leningrad Part Three
In Moscow, Stalin was shocked at how quickly the front surrounding Leningrad had attacked. He considered abandoning the city. He was urged in this direction by Molotov, Manlenkov, and Beria, all of whom were in competition with Zhdanov for who might be next in line as General Secretary. Molotov went so far as to imply that Zhdanov was treating with the enemy to surrender Leningrad, and that he should be executed at once.
Stalin decided to give Zhdanov one last chance to defend the city. He did not send any military aid to do so. But he did order Voroshilov, whom he blamed for the collapse of the front, replaced with his troubleshooter, Marshal Georgi Zhukov. He also sent a message to Zhdanov: if Leningrad falls, make sure you fall with it. Don't bother coming back to Moscow.
Zhukov was a short, stocky Slav with great energy. As he took over the Leningrad defenses, his first command to the troops was: "If you retreat, I will kill you. If I retreat, you kill me. Leningrad will not be surrendered. We fight to the death!" And to this he added, "Attack! Attack! Attack!". He meant it. It did not matter how weak a unit might be. It did not matter if men had no weapons or ammunition; they must attack., If they disobeyed, they were shot.
Zhukov had at his disposal one powerful weapon: the Katyusha, an electrically fired multibarreled mortar that the German soldiers called "Stalin's Organs". It did plenty of damage to the Germans, and also created a sense of psychological terror with it's loud hideous noise.Along with the shells from the Baltic Fleet's dreadnoughts and the Red Army's land based artillery, the Katyusha wrought effective destruction among the Germans during their attempt to seize the railway station at Ligovo. But the Nazis kept attacking there. If they could seize the railway station, all of Leningrad could be taken under fire. This was the last line of defense for Leningrad. If this line fell, the panzers would sweep into Leningrad. On September 17, Zhukov issued a general order to the 42nd and 45th armies, who were the last to defend the line: any withdrawal now would be punished with execution.
On the night of September 18 the fiercest battle of the siege took place around the Klivony House at Ligovo, which was the entrance to the railway,. It was repeatedly taken by the Germans only to be lost again in Soviet counterattacks. Finally,the Germans were driven back, and the line straightened out once more. Neither side was aware at the time this battle was the closest the Germans would come to seizing Leningrad.
Leeb was cracking under the pressure by Hitler. He was accused of dragging his feet. It was taking much too long to take Leningrad. Time was precious now, in late September, with Army Group Center under Bock at the edge of Moscow. Leeb's armor was badly needed elsewhere. At this point, the German High Command made the criticial decision: remove the armor from Leeb, and transfer it south to the Ukraine. War strategists for decades have argued whether or not this decision was the correct one, and I will leave that to someone more knowledgable than myself on this issue (Ozy? Redwes? Anyone?) but in any event, it saved Leningrad, for the time being. She would be blockaded, but not invaded. Zhukov had done his job, and on October 5, under Stalin's orders he returned to the defense of Moscow.
Zhdanov remained behind, with the people of Leningrad, who thought they had survived the worst. They were not yet aware of the price they would have to pay for their refusal to surrender: famine.
In Moscow, Stalin was shocked at how quickly the front surrounding Leningrad had attacked. He considered abandoning the city. He was urged in this direction by Molotov, Manlenkov, and Beria, all of whom were in competition with Zhdanov for who might be next in line as General Secretary. Molotov went so far as to imply that Zhdanov was treating with the enemy to surrender Leningrad, and that he should be executed at once.
Stalin decided to give Zhdanov one last chance to defend the city. He did not send any military aid to do so. But he did order Voroshilov, whom he blamed for the collapse of the front, replaced with his troubleshooter, Marshal Georgi Zhukov. He also sent a message to Zhdanov: if Leningrad falls, make sure you fall with it. Don't bother coming back to Moscow.
Zhukov was a short, stocky Slav with great energy. As he took over the Leningrad defenses, his first command to the troops was: "If you retreat, I will kill you. If I retreat, you kill me. Leningrad will not be surrendered. We fight to the death!" And to this he added, "Attack! Attack! Attack!". He meant it. It did not matter how weak a unit might be. It did not matter if men had no weapons or ammunition; they must attack., If they disobeyed, they were shot.
Zhukov had at his disposal one powerful weapon: the Katyusha, an electrically fired multibarreled mortar that the German soldiers called "Stalin's Organs". It did plenty of damage to the Germans, and also created a sense of psychological terror with it's loud hideous noise.Along with the shells from the Baltic Fleet's dreadnoughts and the Red Army's land based artillery, the Katyusha wrought effective destruction among the Germans during their attempt to seize the railway station at Ligovo. But the Nazis kept attacking there. If they could seize the railway station, all of Leningrad could be taken under fire. This was the last line of defense for Leningrad. If this line fell, the panzers would sweep into Leningrad. On September 17, Zhukov issued a general order to the 42nd and 45th armies, who were the last to defend the line: any withdrawal now would be punished with execution.
On the night of September 18 the fiercest battle of the siege took place around the Klivony House at Ligovo, which was the entrance to the railway,. It was repeatedly taken by the Germans only to be lost again in Soviet counterattacks. Finally,the Germans were driven back, and the line straightened out once more. Neither side was aware at the time this battle was the closest the Germans would come to seizing Leningrad.
Leeb was cracking under the pressure by Hitler. He was accused of dragging his feet. It was taking much too long to take Leningrad. Time was precious now, in late September, with Army Group Center under Bock at the edge of Moscow. Leeb's armor was badly needed elsewhere. At this point, the German High Command made the criticial decision: remove the armor from Leeb, and transfer it south to the Ukraine. War strategists for decades have argued whether or not this decision was the correct one, and I will leave that to someone more knowledgable than myself on this issue (Ozy? Redwes? Anyone?) but in any event, it saved Leningrad, for the time being. She would be blockaded, but not invaded. Zhukov had done his job, and on October 5, under Stalin's orders he returned to the defense of Moscow.
Zhdanov remained behind, with the people of Leningrad, who thought they had survived the worst. They were not yet aware of the price they would have to pay for their refusal to surrender: famine.
Last edited by a moderator:
Ozymandias
Footballguy
Stopping the German attack was an incredible mixture of courage, fear, patriotism, recklessness, desperation, despair, bravery and perseverance. Probably 200,000 died in the effort. Famine and starvation would kill many more than that.
The poet Anna Akhmatova, who could have been evacuated, stayed behind and wrote:
..may courage not abandon us!
Let bullets kill us – we are not afraid,
We will preserve you, Russian speech,
from servitude in foreign chains,
keep you alive, great Russian word…”
By the way, Dimitry Shostakovitch's Seventh Symphony was mostly written in Leningrad during 1941, and first performed there in 1942. He based part of it on the 9th Psalm from the Old Testament; but there was a double meaning here...one was of the oppressors who shed blood and would face the judgment of the Lord (the Nazis), but there was also the meaning (which Shostakovitch intended) of the Soviet oppressors.
The poet Anna Akhmatova, who could have been evacuated, stayed behind and wrote:
..may courage not abandon us!
Let bullets kill us – we are not afraid,
We will preserve you, Russian speech,
from servitude in foreign chains,
keep you alive, great Russian word…”
By the way, Dimitry Shostakovitch's Seventh Symphony was mostly written in Leningrad during 1941, and first performed there in 1942. He based part of it on the 9th Psalm from the Old Testament; but there was a double meaning here...one was of the oppressors who shed blood and would face the judgment of the Lord (the Nazis), but there was also the meaning (which Shostakovitch intended) of the Soviet oppressors.
Last edited by a moderator:
Ozymandias
Footballguy
I believe it was Stalin who said: "Britain provided the time, the United States provided the money, and the Soviet Union provided the blood."been listening to the hardcore history segments and he mentioned that 7 out of every 8 deaths in WWII came from the German/Russian part of the war. Had no idea it was such a high ratio.
timschochet
Footballguy
August, 1941- Hitler's decision to drive Southeast.
I have already discussed Hitler's great error to declare war on the United States. I now want to return to what some people believe to be as nearly big an error: In August of 1941, Hitler effectively put the objectives of Leningrad and Moscow on hold, by ordering the transfer of the panzers to Army Group South, in order to smash through the Ukraine and the Crimea. In the north, Leeb made no complaint about this- perhaps he was even relieved that his attack on Leningrad would now become a holding pattern. At Wolf's Lair, (German military headquarters located in a Prussian forest), General Halder, the army chief of staff, protested bitterly to Hitler. Hitler refused to listen to him. Halder then asked Brauschitch (the commander in chief), Keitel, and Jodl to give him support, but these three declined; unlike the independent Halder, they were cronies of the Fuhrer.
Bock, the commander of Army Group Center met with the panzer commander, Heinz Guderian, and both men complained about the decision. Bock urged Guderian to fly to see Hitler and explain. Guderian noticed that Bock was not willing to go himself. Nonetheless, Guderian agreed. But when he arrived at Wolf's Lair, Brauschitch warned him, "I forbid you to mention the question of Moscow to the Fuhrer. The operation to the south has been ordered. The problem now is simply how to carry it out. Discussion is pointless."
Guderian then immediately requested permission to be flown back to Russia. "Not until you see the Fuhrer", the other general replied. "But you must not mention Moscow."
According to Guderian after the war, he disobeyed Brauschitch, and immediately brought up Moscow. Guderian's argument was that Moscow was the true prize. It was the Soviet road, rail and communications center. It's capture would give the Germans an enormous psychological advantage. And it had to be done now, in August, before the Russians had the chance to come up with a defense.
Hitler replied that his generals "know nothing about the economic aspects of war." The Crimea was an "unsinkable aircraft carrier" for attacking the Romanian oilfields and must be neutralized. In sadness, Guderian wrote, he returned to his panzers. Within a few days they were transferred to Rundstedt's Army Group South.
Guderian's version of this story does not match those of Keitel and Jodl at Nuremberg. According to them, Guderian made no objection beyond a brief initial concern. Their mutual description of Heinz Guderian is of a primma donna, eager to show off his skills but unable to make strategic decisions.
The debate over this has raged throughout the years. The books I am using, especially Delivered From Evil by Robert Mackie, comes down hard on the Guderian side. If the panzers had been allowed to stay in the north and center that August, perhaps Moscow and even Leningrad would have fallen, and Stalin might have sued for peace. But there are other books which actually favor Hitler's position here. In war, the first military axiom is to destroy the enemy's army. The bulk of Russia's army was in the south.
I simply don't know enough about this, I have to admit, to give a judgment here. My intuition tells me that, just as with the overall strategy, it really doesn't matter, because Russia was simply too big for the Germans to conquer. Whatever they gained in one area they give up in the other. But again, I'm really not sure. If anyone has a firm opinion on this, now is the time to give it.
I have already discussed Hitler's great error to declare war on the United States. I now want to return to what some people believe to be as nearly big an error: In August of 1941, Hitler effectively put the objectives of Leningrad and Moscow on hold, by ordering the transfer of the panzers to Army Group South, in order to smash through the Ukraine and the Crimea. In the north, Leeb made no complaint about this- perhaps he was even relieved that his attack on Leningrad would now become a holding pattern. At Wolf's Lair, (German military headquarters located in a Prussian forest), General Halder, the army chief of staff, protested bitterly to Hitler. Hitler refused to listen to him. Halder then asked Brauschitch (the commander in chief), Keitel, and Jodl to give him support, but these three declined; unlike the independent Halder, they were cronies of the Fuhrer.
Bock, the commander of Army Group Center met with the panzer commander, Heinz Guderian, and both men complained about the decision. Bock urged Guderian to fly to see Hitler and explain. Guderian noticed that Bock was not willing to go himself. Nonetheless, Guderian agreed. But when he arrived at Wolf's Lair, Brauschitch warned him, "I forbid you to mention the question of Moscow to the Fuhrer. The operation to the south has been ordered. The problem now is simply how to carry it out. Discussion is pointless."
Guderian then immediately requested permission to be flown back to Russia. "Not until you see the Fuhrer", the other general replied. "But you must not mention Moscow."
According to Guderian after the war, he disobeyed Brauschitch, and immediately brought up Moscow. Guderian's argument was that Moscow was the true prize. It was the Soviet road, rail and communications center. It's capture would give the Germans an enormous psychological advantage. And it had to be done now, in August, before the Russians had the chance to come up with a defense.
Hitler replied that his generals "know nothing about the economic aspects of war." The Crimea was an "unsinkable aircraft carrier" for attacking the Romanian oilfields and must be neutralized. In sadness, Guderian wrote, he returned to his panzers. Within a few days they were transferred to Rundstedt's Army Group South.
Guderian's version of this story does not match those of Keitel and Jodl at Nuremberg. According to them, Guderian made no objection beyond a brief initial concern. Their mutual description of Heinz Guderian is of a primma donna, eager to show off his skills but unable to make strategic decisions.
The debate over this has raged throughout the years. The books I am using, especially Delivered From Evil by Robert Mackie, comes down hard on the Guderian side. If the panzers had been allowed to stay in the north and center that August, perhaps Moscow and even Leningrad would have fallen, and Stalin might have sued for peace. But there are other books which actually favor Hitler's position here. In war, the first military axiom is to destroy the enemy's army. The bulk of Russia's army was in the south.
I simply don't know enough about this, I have to admit, to give a judgment here. My intuition tells me that, just as with the overall strategy, it really doesn't matter, because Russia was simply too big for the Germans to conquer. Whatever they gained in one area they give up in the other. But again, I'm really not sure. If anyone has a firm opinion on this, now is the time to give it.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
Don't mention the war!Well, you're the one who started it!
No I didn't!
Yes, you invaded Poland!
Ozymandias
Footballguy
The reality is, Hitler tried to do too much, and in doing so, condemned each of the three main thrusts to failure. Although Germany had enough troops to fully make the three thrusts, there were not enough Panzer divisions to make them all effective. And the whole German strategy was built on the Blitzkrieg. He should have decided on Moscow as the first priority and made the major thrust that way. Everything, absolutely everything should have been made subsidiary to that. If he had taken Moscow by the end of September, Stalin might have sued for peace. But in wanting to take Moscow, and Leningrad and the Caucasus oilfields, he overextended himself.
His generals disagreed vehemently with him. They wanted the main thrust to be toward Moscow; Hitler was seduced by the wheatfields of the Ukraine and the oil of the Caucasus. To be fair, it was true that Germany was experiencing a shortage of oil. But destroying the Soviet center of communications, and taking the capital should have been the overriding priority. After they took Smolensk on July 15th, with the road to Moscow open, Hitler diverted troops to the Ukraine. True, they captured more than 600,000 prisoners. But by the time it was over, it was too late to get to Moscow by the end of September. The Russian winter had taken a seat at the table.
His generals disagreed vehemently with him. They wanted the main thrust to be toward Moscow; Hitler was seduced by the wheatfields of the Ukraine and the oil of the Caucasus. To be fair, it was true that Germany was experiencing a shortage of oil. But destroying the Soviet center of communications, and taking the capital should have been the overriding priority. After they took Smolensk on July 15th, with the road to Moscow open, Hitler diverted troops to the Ukraine. True, they captured more than 600,000 prisoners. But by the time it was over, it was too late to get to Moscow by the end of September. The Russian winter had taken a seat at the table.
timschochet
Footballguy
The Ukraine
No single group within the Soviet Union was more ripe for welcoming the Germans as liberators than the Ukraine. This is because no single area had been more victims of the Soviet Union than the Ukraine. In the late 1920's when Stalin declared a collectivization and elimination of the Kulaks (independent farmers) the bulk of this fell on the Ukraine. Because this area was closed off to the public, we still do not know to this day how many people died as a result of forced mass starvation, but it is believed to be anywhere from 10-20 million, perhaps 40% of the entire population.
Even before this event, the Ukraine was always a region that considered itself separate from Russia, and since the 1400's there had been continuous revolts, usually led by Cossacks, sometimes allied with Poland, sometimes with Russia, but always seeking an independence that would not come until the end of the 20th century. The majority of the population was religious, backwards, and strongly anti-Semitic (another reason they liked the Germans.) Ukrainian peasants cheered during the massacres of the Jews carried out by the Einsatzgruppen.
It is clear, therefore, that the Germans, looking for men to fill their numbers, could have found them in the Ukraine, and used these to defeat the Russians. Stalin very much feared this outcome, the record shows. But it was not to be. As per other citizens of the Soviet Union, the Germans looked at Ukrainians as a inferior people suitable only for slavery. From the moment they invaded, Ukrainians who were well built, both men and women, were put in trucks and sent back behind the lines for slave labor. Any who resisted were shot or hung from lampposts. Heinrich Himmler stated the German policy very clearly:
What happens to a Ukranian, or a Russian, does not interest me in the slightest. What the nations can offer in good blood of our type we will take, as necessary by kidnapping their children and raising them here with us. Whether nations live in prosperity or starve to death interests me only in so far as we need them for our Kultur; otherwise, it is of no interest to me. Whether ten thousand Russian females fall down from exhaustion digging an antitank ditch interests me only insofar as the antitank ditch for Germany is finished.
The result was the Ukranians, instead of welcoming their "liberators" responded to this treatment by becoming the most brutal and savage partisans in the entire war. No brutal treatment of German soldiers was enough for them. Germans were discovered, their eyes and entrails missing, horror on their frozen faces from the torture they had endured while being captured. Signs would be found attached to them: "This is what is in store for the rest of you." The Germans responded by gathering up hordes of civilians and shooting them. Such was the war in the Ukraine. If this is not brutal enough, the Soviet troops fleeing the Ukraine would first destroy both the foodstuffs and the wheat fields. The intent, of course, was to prevent the Germans from taking food. That this policy also forced Ukranians to starve did not seem to bother the Russians much.
The Kiev encirclement was a masterstroke. Guderian's panzers drove south across the Russian rear while Kleist's struck north. The two pincers met 150 miles east of the Ukranian capital and captured, as Ozy mentioned, 665,000 prisoners. Hitler was jubilant. He said:
I declare today- and I declare it without reservation- the enemy in the East has been struck down and will never rise again.
Now Guderian was told he could return his tanks to the Moscow front, where Bock was only 40 miles west of the Russian capital. But it was already October 20- would it be too late?
No single group within the Soviet Union was more ripe for welcoming the Germans as liberators than the Ukraine. This is because no single area had been more victims of the Soviet Union than the Ukraine. In the late 1920's when Stalin declared a collectivization and elimination of the Kulaks (independent farmers) the bulk of this fell on the Ukraine. Because this area was closed off to the public, we still do not know to this day how many people died as a result of forced mass starvation, but it is believed to be anywhere from 10-20 million, perhaps 40% of the entire population.
Even before this event, the Ukraine was always a region that considered itself separate from Russia, and since the 1400's there had been continuous revolts, usually led by Cossacks, sometimes allied with Poland, sometimes with Russia, but always seeking an independence that would not come until the end of the 20th century. The majority of the population was religious, backwards, and strongly anti-Semitic (another reason they liked the Germans.) Ukrainian peasants cheered during the massacres of the Jews carried out by the Einsatzgruppen.
It is clear, therefore, that the Germans, looking for men to fill their numbers, could have found them in the Ukraine, and used these to defeat the Russians. Stalin very much feared this outcome, the record shows. But it was not to be. As per other citizens of the Soviet Union, the Germans looked at Ukrainians as a inferior people suitable only for slavery. From the moment they invaded, Ukrainians who were well built, both men and women, were put in trucks and sent back behind the lines for slave labor. Any who resisted were shot or hung from lampposts. Heinrich Himmler stated the German policy very clearly:
What happens to a Ukranian, or a Russian, does not interest me in the slightest. What the nations can offer in good blood of our type we will take, as necessary by kidnapping their children and raising them here with us. Whether nations live in prosperity or starve to death interests me only in so far as we need them for our Kultur; otherwise, it is of no interest to me. Whether ten thousand Russian females fall down from exhaustion digging an antitank ditch interests me only insofar as the antitank ditch for Germany is finished.
The result was the Ukranians, instead of welcoming their "liberators" responded to this treatment by becoming the most brutal and savage partisans in the entire war. No brutal treatment of German soldiers was enough for them. Germans were discovered, their eyes and entrails missing, horror on their frozen faces from the torture they had endured while being captured. Signs would be found attached to them: "This is what is in store for the rest of you." The Germans responded by gathering up hordes of civilians and shooting them. Such was the war in the Ukraine. If this is not brutal enough, the Soviet troops fleeing the Ukraine would first destroy both the foodstuffs and the wheat fields. The intent, of course, was to prevent the Germans from taking food. That this policy also forced Ukranians to starve did not seem to bother the Russians much.
The Kiev encirclement was a masterstroke. Guderian's panzers drove south across the Russian rear while Kleist's struck north. The two pincers met 150 miles east of the Ukranian capital and captured, as Ozy mentioned, 665,000 prisoners. Hitler was jubilant. He said:
I declare today- and I declare it without reservation- the enemy in the East has been struck down and will never rise again.
Now Guderian was told he could return his tanks to the Moscow front, where Bock was only 40 miles west of the Russian capital. But it was already October 20- would it be too late?
Last edited by a moderator:
I pimped "City of Thieves" by David Benioff before, and will do it again. Read this novel. You'll understand the Seige of Leningrad batter after you do.
timschochet
Footballguy
The Drive on Moscow
Drenching rains swept over western Russia in September, turning the roads into ribbons of mud. For this Germans this represented a huge problem- wheeled vehicles could only advance with the help of tracked vehicles- usually tanks, which was not what the tanks had been designed for. Ropes wer used, and the single road to Moscow simply collapsed under the weight of Guderian's armor. Meanwhile the Soviets expertly blew up every bridge in front of the Germans, and littered the road with minefields. But still, though a triumph of ingenuity and perseverance, the Germans kept moving towards the goals. As I wrote earlier, on October 20 they were only 40 miles outside of Moscow. To the rest of the world, this campaign seemed very similar to the one in Poland. Most American journalists and military experts now assumed it was only a matter of weeks, perhaps days, before Moscow surrendered.
Inside the city, the atmosphere was similar to 1812: feverish, warlike, and patriotic. Stalin had made a very wise choice in his speeches since the invasion began by appealing not to saving the Soviet system but to saving Holy Russia. Mass evacuations from Moscow began on October 15. History records that Stalin sent most of the Politburo on trains to Kuibyshev, including Beria, but he (Stalin) bravely stayed behind and directed the city's defenses. We may never know the accuracy of this statement. One rumor persists to this day that Stalin actually did flee, returned when he realized it was premature, and then had everyone who knew about this shot. There is a famous painting of Stalin looking serenely on at the Moscow soldiers defending the city. Called Stalin at the Front, it was reproduced everywhere in Russia as a sign of patriotism, and accompanied by this poem, written by the famous poet Samed Vurgun:
He is the Bright Sun of my country; with his native born smile.
He warms the different peoples, and happy is the man
Who shakes his hand...and the high heavens
Towering over the earth, envy the earth on which he walks.
Apparently, one of the "happy men" to shake Stalin's hand during this period was Harry Hopkins, who as FDR's envoy visited Stalin in July, 1941. He wrote:
No one could forget the picture of the dictator of Russia as he stood watching me leave- an austere, rugged, determined figure in boots that shone like mirrors, stout baggy trousers, and snug-fitting blouse. He wore no ornament, military or civilian. He's built close to the ground like a football coach's dream of a tackle. His hands are huge, as hard as his mind. His humor is keen and penetrating.
Hopkin's man-love for Stalin, with it's gay overtones (IMO) had an affect on FDR. During the later years of the war, several people close to Roosevelt, including Churchill and Ambassador to Russia William Bullitt, repeatedly attempted to warn him about Stalin's postwar designs. "I have a hunch Stalin is not that kind of man," FDR would reply. "Harry says he's not."
The other result of that first meeting between Hopkins and Stalin, and the subsequent arrival of the first Lend-Lease supplies, was that the Soviets began the pattern that would only increase as the war went on: first, they demanded an immediate second front in Europe, and strongly intimated that the British (and later Americans) were cowards for not providing it. Second, they demanded more and more supplies from the west as their right, without expressing any gratitude for what they were receiving. "You give money, and we give blood" was Stalin's favorite statement. Most importantly, according to Beaverbrook who was there on October 20 as the Germans advanced, Stalin rejoiced on that day, because the snow began to fall from the sky. "Now," said the dictator, "we shall win the war!"
The Germans all knew what had happened to Napoleon's Grand Armee. Despondently they stared at the sky. The temperature dropped, dropped...soon it was at zero, then below zero. There was no winter clothing. Hitler had been so confident of victory that he had scoffed at such provisions. The men's boots froze like blocks of ice. Walking became an ordeal. But still the men kept moving, trudging forward with the tanks, through the month of November, sometimes a few feet a day. By December 5, at least a few German contingents were within the outskirts of Moscow. This was as far as they would ever get. On December 6, 1941, the Russians counterattacked.
Drenching rains swept over western Russia in September, turning the roads into ribbons of mud. For this Germans this represented a huge problem- wheeled vehicles could only advance with the help of tracked vehicles- usually tanks, which was not what the tanks had been designed for. Ropes wer used, and the single road to Moscow simply collapsed under the weight of Guderian's armor. Meanwhile the Soviets expertly blew up every bridge in front of the Germans, and littered the road with minefields. But still, though a triumph of ingenuity and perseverance, the Germans kept moving towards the goals. As I wrote earlier, on October 20 they were only 40 miles outside of Moscow. To the rest of the world, this campaign seemed very similar to the one in Poland. Most American journalists and military experts now assumed it was only a matter of weeks, perhaps days, before Moscow surrendered.
Inside the city, the atmosphere was similar to 1812: feverish, warlike, and patriotic. Stalin had made a very wise choice in his speeches since the invasion began by appealing not to saving the Soviet system but to saving Holy Russia. Mass evacuations from Moscow began on October 15. History records that Stalin sent most of the Politburo on trains to Kuibyshev, including Beria, but he (Stalin) bravely stayed behind and directed the city's defenses. We may never know the accuracy of this statement. One rumor persists to this day that Stalin actually did flee, returned when he realized it was premature, and then had everyone who knew about this shot. There is a famous painting of Stalin looking serenely on at the Moscow soldiers defending the city. Called Stalin at the Front, it was reproduced everywhere in Russia as a sign of patriotism, and accompanied by this poem, written by the famous poet Samed Vurgun:
He is the Bright Sun of my country; with his native born smile.
He warms the different peoples, and happy is the man
Who shakes his hand...and the high heavens
Towering over the earth, envy the earth on which he walks.
Apparently, one of the "happy men" to shake Stalin's hand during this period was Harry Hopkins, who as FDR's envoy visited Stalin in July, 1941. He wrote:
No one could forget the picture of the dictator of Russia as he stood watching me leave- an austere, rugged, determined figure in boots that shone like mirrors, stout baggy trousers, and snug-fitting blouse. He wore no ornament, military or civilian. He's built close to the ground like a football coach's dream of a tackle. His hands are huge, as hard as his mind. His humor is keen and penetrating.
Hopkin's man-love for Stalin, with it's gay overtones (IMO) had an affect on FDR. During the later years of the war, several people close to Roosevelt, including Churchill and Ambassador to Russia William Bullitt, repeatedly attempted to warn him about Stalin's postwar designs. "I have a hunch Stalin is not that kind of man," FDR would reply. "Harry says he's not."
The other result of that first meeting between Hopkins and Stalin, and the subsequent arrival of the first Lend-Lease supplies, was that the Soviets began the pattern that would only increase as the war went on: first, they demanded an immediate second front in Europe, and strongly intimated that the British (and later Americans) were cowards for not providing it. Second, they demanded more and more supplies from the west as their right, without expressing any gratitude for what they were receiving. "You give money, and we give blood" was Stalin's favorite statement. Most importantly, according to Beaverbrook who was there on October 20 as the Germans advanced, Stalin rejoiced on that day, because the snow began to fall from the sky. "Now," said the dictator, "we shall win the war!"
The Germans all knew what had happened to Napoleon's Grand Armee. Despondently they stared at the sky. The temperature dropped, dropped...soon it was at zero, then below zero. There was no winter clothing. Hitler had been so confident of victory that he had scoffed at such provisions. The men's boots froze like blocks of ice. Walking became an ordeal. But still the men kept moving, trudging forward with the tanks, through the month of November, sometimes a few feet a day. By December 5, at least a few German contingents were within the outskirts of Moscow. This was as far as they would ever get. On December 6, 1941, the Russians counterattacked.
The dismantaling and movement east or the Ural Mountains of much of Soviet heavy industry is one of the untold and underappreciated stories of WWII. Also, Tim, have you read Herman Wouk's "The Winds of War"? One of the protaganists, is US naval attache in Moscow during this period. While it's a novel, it contains a lot of history. Wouk clearly did his research. "War and Rememberance" is also very good. It deals with the Holocaust, among other things in the second half of the war.timschochet said:
Ozymandias
Footballguy
Are you kidding? Tim has read it at least three times. I've read it twice, and I'm not Jewish.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
If Hitler had gone for Moscow, he might have preempted the movement of people and industry out of Moscow. Or much of it anyway. He could have had Moscow by the end of September.
timschochet
Footballguy
One of my favorites- I have not yet used Wouk here as a source, but I do plan on it. His narratives in the second book about the battles of Midway and Leyte Gulf I find to be especially insightful, and I plan on referring to them. You have to be careful with some of his other takes, because often he writes the military scenes from the perspective of the German general Von Roon. Wouk also provides some very insightful commentary about the pacific war in his earlier novel, The Caine Mutiny, and I hope to look that up and give the exact quote later on.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
I hope you're not planning on writing the story about Midway, because that's my baby. I majored in Midway.
timschochet
Footballguy
MacArthur's Retreat
In the long history of warfare, we find that most generals deal with military defeats and disasters by collapsing and never being heard from again, especially if that general was the architect of the disaster. Conversely, some of the greatest generals in history prove their worth at this time, by responding to such a dire situation. Lee considered himself at fault for Gettysburg, yet managed a brilliant retreat and through his strategy prolonged the war for another year.
When last we encountered Douglas MacArthur, all of his dreams of a defensible Phillippines had gone up with the smoke of the destroyed Clark Field. Whatever the responsibility of his subordinates for this disaster, MacArthur was to blame for the overall series of events. He had promised Washington that he could defend these islands. He had done so out of a misguided sense of pride and family legacy and had refused to listen to any reasoning that might contradict his emotional response. Now, he, and the American and Filipino army under his command, were in deep trouble. On December 22, 1941, the Japanese 14th Army under General Masaharu Homma began landing in the Lingayan Gulf 100 miles north of Manila. Within a few days he put 43,000 men ashore. On the 24th, another 8,000 soldiers landed in Lamon Bay on Manila's back door. The Filipinos defending broke and ran. MacArthur had no air support. It looked like the whole American contingent would be forced to surrender within a few days.
As I wrote, most generals would have disappeared from history at this point. Not this one. What he did instead is what few men are ever able to do under any circumstances: MacArthur assessed the new situation without emotion, and came up with a new plan. He ordered both of his commanders, Johnathon Wainwright and George Parker, to withdraw from Manila and into the Bataan peninsula. This section of the Phillipines, with the island of Corregidor as it's back, was militarily defensible for an indefinite period. MacArthur declared Manila and open city and moved his headquarters to Corregidor. The idea was to hold out there until US forces could either be rescued at sea or re-supplied for the longer fight.
The retreat was done with masterly skill. Using swamps and rivers as shields, fighting tank actions to cover and check the enemy's motorized advance, while holding roads and bridges until they had to be blown, the Americans got safely to Bataan. This action delayed Japanese timetables by over four months, which may well have had a direct effect on the eventual outcome of the entire Pacific war. Certainly neither MacArthur nor his men realized this at the time (though the General would take credit later on.) They were simply trying to hold out, waiting for the Navy to rescue them. They did not seem to understand that the Navy had for all practical purposes been destroyed at Pearl Harbor.
I had great uncle named Jack Stevenson, whom I never met, but who is a family legend. According to the legend, Uncle Jack grew up on the docks of San Francisco, and quit high school during the Depression to try out a career as a lightweight boxer. When this failed, Uncle Jack joined a gang that robbed grocery stores by gunpoint. He was caught and sentenced to 10 years in prison. After one year, he was offered immediate parole if he was willing to enlist in the United States Army. This was in the fall of 1941. Uncle Jack agreed, and directly after basic training was put on a ship bound for Manila. He arrived in the first week of December, just in time! Jack was part of this retreat to Corregidor. He was also part of the bloody fighting that took place the next four months, and he was a rare member of the Bataan Death March- rare, in that he survived it. I will try to add to his story later on, from what little I know of it.
In the long history of warfare, we find that most generals deal with military defeats and disasters by collapsing and never being heard from again, especially if that general was the architect of the disaster. Conversely, some of the greatest generals in history prove their worth at this time, by responding to such a dire situation. Lee considered himself at fault for Gettysburg, yet managed a brilliant retreat and through his strategy prolonged the war for another year.
When last we encountered Douglas MacArthur, all of his dreams of a defensible Phillippines had gone up with the smoke of the destroyed Clark Field. Whatever the responsibility of his subordinates for this disaster, MacArthur was to blame for the overall series of events. He had promised Washington that he could defend these islands. He had done so out of a misguided sense of pride and family legacy and had refused to listen to any reasoning that might contradict his emotional response. Now, he, and the American and Filipino army under his command, were in deep trouble. On December 22, 1941, the Japanese 14th Army under General Masaharu Homma began landing in the Lingayan Gulf 100 miles north of Manila. Within a few days he put 43,000 men ashore. On the 24th, another 8,000 soldiers landed in Lamon Bay on Manila's back door. The Filipinos defending broke and ran. MacArthur had no air support. It looked like the whole American contingent would be forced to surrender within a few days.
As I wrote, most generals would have disappeared from history at this point. Not this one. What he did instead is what few men are ever able to do under any circumstances: MacArthur assessed the new situation without emotion, and came up with a new plan. He ordered both of his commanders, Johnathon Wainwright and George Parker, to withdraw from Manila and into the Bataan peninsula. This section of the Phillipines, with the island of Corregidor as it's back, was militarily defensible for an indefinite period. MacArthur declared Manila and open city and moved his headquarters to Corregidor. The idea was to hold out there until US forces could either be rescued at sea or re-supplied for the longer fight.
The retreat was done with masterly skill. Using swamps and rivers as shields, fighting tank actions to cover and check the enemy's motorized advance, while holding roads and bridges until they had to be blown, the Americans got safely to Bataan. This action delayed Japanese timetables by over four months, which may well have had a direct effect on the eventual outcome of the entire Pacific war. Certainly neither MacArthur nor his men realized this at the time (though the General would take credit later on.) They were simply trying to hold out, waiting for the Navy to rescue them. They did not seem to understand that the Navy had for all practical purposes been destroyed at Pearl Harbor.
I had great uncle named Jack Stevenson, whom I never met, but who is a family legend. According to the legend, Uncle Jack grew up on the docks of San Francisco, and quit high school during the Depression to try out a career as a lightweight boxer. When this failed, Uncle Jack joined a gang that robbed grocery stores by gunpoint. He was caught and sentenced to 10 years in prison. After one year, he was offered immediate parole if he was willing to enlist in the United States Army. This was in the fall of 1941. Uncle Jack agreed, and directly after basic training was put on a ship bound for Manila. He arrived in the first week of December, just in time! Jack was part of this retreat to Corregidor. He was also part of the bloody fighting that took place the next four months, and he was a rare member of the Bataan Death March- rare, in that he survived it. I will try to add to his story later on, from what little I know of it.
timschochet
Footballguy
No problem. When we get there, you take over. I'll simply add some commentary. We're still a ways off, though...I hope you're not planning on writing the story about Midway, because that's my baby. I majored in Midway.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
I agree with you; it was a brilliant retreat into a defensible position. However, two things turned it into a disaster. The first is that MacArthur believed that the US would come to the rescue, and he kept getting promises that they would do so. But of course, they couldn't. He was not to blame for that. The second is that he failed to make adequate provision to supply enough food in the Bataan peninsula, given the number of troops that were there. He got the troops there, but he didn't have enough food or vitamins. It didn't help that a freighter with food from the US was torpedoed 5 miles short of the shore. The shortage of food and vitamins led to disease and put his troops close to starvation.Of course, it's easy in hindsight to say what should have been done. But overall, it was a masterful achievement.
rsanford
Footballguy
Loving this thread, catching up over the last couple days, up to page 9.
One thing I'd like to learn more about, is how the industrial capacity of the major players contributed to events. At various points in the war, what were the build and loss rates for planes, ships, tanks, etc? Where geographically was most of the production happening, and what were the transport and operator limitations impacting their quick and efficient deployment? How did perceived over/under destruction and construction impact strategic decisions?
One thing I'd like to learn more about, is how the industrial capacity of the major players contributed to events. At various points in the war, what were the build and loss rates for planes, ships, tanks, etc? Where geographically was most of the production happening, and what were the transport and operator limitations impacting their quick and efficient deployment? How did perceived over/under destruction and construction impact strategic decisions?
Ozymandias
Footballguy
I'd also like the names and addresses of all those killed in the Blitz.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
"I want to tell you from the Russian point of view, what the President and the United States have done to win the war. The most important things in this war are machines. The United States has proven that it can turn out from 8,000 to 10,000 airplanes a month. Russia can only turn out, at most, 3,000 airplanes a month. The United States, therefore, is a country of machines. Without the use of those machines, through Lend-Lease, we would lose this war."
Joseph Stalin
Joseph Stalin
Ozymandias
Footballguy
Yes, it was. Stalin said it directly, right back there in post #615.
oops, LOL. I've been listening to the Carlin podcasts and he gave that quote in one. It's pretty interesting to think about what would have happened if any of those three elements was taken out of the equation...Yes, it was. Stalin said it directly, right back there in post #615.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
Yes. The two obvious ones are the Americans and the Russians. However, the Brits bought Russia the time, and diverted resources (think Rommel in North Africa, and Greece and paratroops in Crete) which could have been used in the invasion. As a result Operation Barbarossa was delayed a month, and that could have been all the difference in them getting to Moscow.oops, LOL. I've been listening to the Carlin podcasts and he gave that quote in one. It's pretty interesting to think about what would have happened if any of those three elements was taken out of the equation...Yes, it was. Stalin said it directly, right back there in post #615.
Copeman
Footballguy
Also in the BoB no?However, the Brits bought Russia the time, and diverted resources (think Rommel in North Africa, and Greece and paratroops in Crete) which could have been used in the invasion. As a result Operation Barbarossa was delayed a month, and that could have been all the difference in them getting to Moscow.oops, LOL. I've been listening to the Carlin podcasts and he gave that quote in one. It's pretty interesting to think about what would have happened if any of those three elements was taken out of the equation...Yes, it was. Stalin said it directly, right back there in post #615.
timschochet
Footballguy
Great question. I can answer it for the Americans and for the Germans. Hopefully, someone else will be able to fill you in on the Russians, Japanese, and others:For Germany, the main industrial area was the Ruhr, near the Rhine in western Germany. Krupp, IG Farban, and other factories worked around the clock from 1933 onward to produce the necessary arms and machines for the Third Reich. After Poland and Russia was invaded, these factories often employed slave labor under miserable conditions. Beginning in 1943, however, the Ruhr was bombed to such an extent that continued output seemed impossible, and Germany was under real threat of losing the war even then. That's when Albert Speer took over. Speer was a brilliant architect and close friend of Adolf Hitler (we can discuss his later facade in the latter years of the 20th century on a later date.) Spper moved the factories underground; his organizational skills helped Germany stay in the war.America's industrial success during the war is too detailed to discuss in this one post. Later on I will try to devote several posts to people like Henry Kaiser and others who created a miracle of production.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
Yes. The RAF chewed up the Luftwaffe, making fewer planes and experienced pilots available for Barbarossa.Also in the BoB no?However, the Brits bought Russia the time, and diverted resources (think Rommel in North Africa, and Greece and paratroops in Crete) which could have been used in the invasion. As a result Operation Barbarossa was delayed a month, and that could have been all the difference in them getting to Moscow.oops, LOL. I've been listening to the Carlin podcasts and he gave that quote in one. It's pretty interesting to think about what would have happened if any of those three elements was taken out of the equation...Yes, it was. Stalin said it directly, right back there in post #615.
timschochet
Footballguy
Two States, Two Outcomes
The story of the Nisei (2nd generation Japanese Americans) is one of great shame for America, and also of great triumph. It represents, IMO, all that is wrong and all that is great with our country. I plan, over the course of this narrative, in telling it in detail, but for now I want to focus on the initial reaction in two states, California and Hawaii. These two states had the largest number of Japanese Americans in 1941: approximately 160,000 in Hawaii, and 95,000 in California. Most of these people were farmers or owned small businesses like stores and barbershops.
In both states, the immediate reaction to Pearl Harbor was the same: the newspapers shrilly warned their readers of possible sabatoge and espionage by the "local Japs" and called for their immediate arrest. In both states, there was a wave of angry white people who swept into areas where the Nisei lived, beat them up, smashed windows of stores, and committed what can only be called progroms. In both states, the FBI then arrested every prominent Japanese-American, without any reasons given, and stuck them in jail.
But here is where the similarities end. In Hawaii, a wonderful thing happened. The best and most well-respected citizens of the islands, scions of the families descended from the original missionaries, quietly went to each jail and used their influence to see that those arrested were released. Within one week after Pearl Harbor, not a single Japanese-American was under arrest. Furthermore, because of the influence of these families on the military government of Hawaii, not a singe Japanese-American living there was relocated during the entire war. For the most part, following the initial reaction, the 160,000 Japanese-Americans in Hawaii were allowed to live their lives. This does not mean they had equal rights, nor were they considered citizens. How they won their citizenship is an amazing story which shall be related later.
How I would like to relate that my home state of California behaved as rationally as did Hawaii. It would have made more sense, after all, since California was removed from the battle arena and did not really fear invasion, as Hawaii did (despite locals believing otherwise.) But this is not the case. The prominent Nisei who were imprisoned in California were held for months, until the internment order came. No prominent white citizens spoke up for them here. In fact, it was the opposite. From The Glory And The Dream:
Those who like to stamp labels on public figures should find this instructive, for the racist repression did not come from the Right, where according to liberal dogma it always lurks; it was advocated and administered by liberals celebrated for their freedom from bigotry: Earl Warren, Walter Lippmann, Henry L. Stimson, Abe Fortas, Hugo Black, and John J. McCloy...
The air strike at Pearl Harbor started the harrassment, and the long string of Japanese victories in 1942 stirred a blind vegeance aong American caucasians- so runs the justification. It might be more persuasive had the judges at Nuremberg not ruled that the fever of war is not an extenuating circumstance...
The Nisei were dismissed from civil service jobs; their licenses to practice law and medicine were revoked; in some California communities, they were forbidden to do business of any sort, and those who made their living as commercial fishermen were barred from their boats. Earl Warren said that the absence of any domestic sabatoge by Jaoanese demonstrated "just how devious their plotting is."
Insurance companies cancelled Nisei policies without refund. Milkmen refused to deliver their milk. Grocers wouldn't sell them food. Warren had their funds frozen, and banks would not honor their checks. Children were expelled from elementary schools. Some barbershop windows read: JAPS SHAVED NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ACCIDENTS, and one restaurant in Los Angeles had this sign: THIS MANAGEMENT POISONS BOTH RATS AND JAPS. They couldn't get water, or the use of public toilets. Gas stations refused them gasoline. In Bakersfield, where a Nisei girl found a job, she tried to attend a church. The minister himself blocked the way. He asked, "Wouldn't you feel more at home in your own church?"
All of this was preliminary for the federal action that was coming in a few months. Later on I will narrate how it came about, and who was responsible for this national crime.
The story of the Nisei (2nd generation Japanese Americans) is one of great shame for America, and also of great triumph. It represents, IMO, all that is wrong and all that is great with our country. I plan, over the course of this narrative, in telling it in detail, but for now I want to focus on the initial reaction in two states, California and Hawaii. These two states had the largest number of Japanese Americans in 1941: approximately 160,000 in Hawaii, and 95,000 in California. Most of these people were farmers or owned small businesses like stores and barbershops.
In both states, the immediate reaction to Pearl Harbor was the same: the newspapers shrilly warned their readers of possible sabatoge and espionage by the "local Japs" and called for their immediate arrest. In both states, there was a wave of angry white people who swept into areas where the Nisei lived, beat them up, smashed windows of stores, and committed what can only be called progroms. In both states, the FBI then arrested every prominent Japanese-American, without any reasons given, and stuck them in jail.
But here is where the similarities end. In Hawaii, a wonderful thing happened. The best and most well-respected citizens of the islands, scions of the families descended from the original missionaries, quietly went to each jail and used their influence to see that those arrested were released. Within one week after Pearl Harbor, not a single Japanese-American was under arrest. Furthermore, because of the influence of these families on the military government of Hawaii, not a singe Japanese-American living there was relocated during the entire war. For the most part, following the initial reaction, the 160,000 Japanese-Americans in Hawaii were allowed to live their lives. This does not mean they had equal rights, nor were they considered citizens. How they won their citizenship is an amazing story which shall be related later.
How I would like to relate that my home state of California behaved as rationally as did Hawaii. It would have made more sense, after all, since California was removed from the battle arena and did not really fear invasion, as Hawaii did (despite locals believing otherwise.) But this is not the case. The prominent Nisei who were imprisoned in California were held for months, until the internment order came. No prominent white citizens spoke up for them here. In fact, it was the opposite. From The Glory And The Dream:
Those who like to stamp labels on public figures should find this instructive, for the racist repression did not come from the Right, where according to liberal dogma it always lurks; it was advocated and administered by liberals celebrated for their freedom from bigotry: Earl Warren, Walter Lippmann, Henry L. Stimson, Abe Fortas, Hugo Black, and John J. McCloy...
The air strike at Pearl Harbor started the harrassment, and the long string of Japanese victories in 1942 stirred a blind vegeance aong American caucasians- so runs the justification. It might be more persuasive had the judges at Nuremberg not ruled that the fever of war is not an extenuating circumstance...
The Nisei were dismissed from civil service jobs; their licenses to practice law and medicine were revoked; in some California communities, they were forbidden to do business of any sort, and those who made their living as commercial fishermen were barred from their boats. Earl Warren said that the absence of any domestic sabatoge by Jaoanese demonstrated "just how devious their plotting is."
Insurance companies cancelled Nisei policies without refund. Milkmen refused to deliver their milk. Grocers wouldn't sell them food. Warren had their funds frozen, and banks would not honor their checks. Children were expelled from elementary schools. Some barbershop windows read: JAPS SHAVED NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ACCIDENTS, and one restaurant in Los Angeles had this sign: THIS MANAGEMENT POISONS BOTH RATS AND JAPS. They couldn't get water, or the use of public toilets. Gas stations refused them gasoline. In Bakersfield, where a Nisei girl found a job, she tried to attend a church. The minister himself blocked the way. He asked, "Wouldn't you feel more at home in your own church?"
All of this was preliminary for the federal action that was coming in a few months. Later on I will narrate how it came about, and who was responsible for this national crime.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
There was no doubt that this was wrong, and unjust. And, as it proved, these Japanese Americans were loyal to the United States.
However, it is easier to see that from our vantage point almost 70 years later. At the time, America felt besieged; it had been treacherously attacked by Japan, and there was an undeniable fear of sabotage. Further, there was the experience of Vichy France, where the French had collaborated with the Germans. In the USA, conscription had been passed. That means that if you were a male under 30, the government was going to forcibly take you from whatever you were doing, and put you in the Armed Forces. Material could be requisitioned, gasoline was rationed, food was rationed, and the Armed Forces, if they needed something or some place, could find a way to get it.
That doesn't make it right. But it does make it a little more understandable.
However, it is easier to see that from our vantage point almost 70 years later. At the time, America felt besieged; it had been treacherously attacked by Japan, and there was an undeniable fear of sabotage. Further, there was the experience of Vichy France, where the French had collaborated with the Germans. In the USA, conscription had been passed. That means that if you were a male under 30, the government was going to forcibly take you from whatever you were doing, and put you in the Armed Forces. Material could be requisitioned, gasoline was rationed, food was rationed, and the Armed Forces, if they needed something or some place, could find a way to get it.
That doesn't make it right. But it does make it a little more understandable.
timschochet
Footballguy
The whole point of my post was that the example of Hawaii proved that it did not have to happen. Other than that, I agree with your post.
What's your source for the B-17s from the mainland being armed? In "Day of Infamy," Walter Lord wrote that the planes didn't have any ammunition to save on weight and that their guns were packed away.To the best of my knowledge, the only U.S. pilots to strike a blow that day were Army Lts. Ken Taylor and George Welch, who flew a pair of P-40s and were credited with shooting down seven Japanese planes between the two of them.
timschochet
Footballguy
I got that direct from Delivered From Evil. I can't vouch for the accuracy.
timschochet
Footballguy
Singapore Part One
Ozymandius narrated earlier how the Japanese assault in December of 1941 was amazing- besides Pearl Harbor and the Phillipines, several islands were seized, including Hong Kong. Shanghai taken on the mainland. In the Battle of the Java Sea, a wide number of naval and merchant marine ships of Dutch, British, and American origin were sunk. The British in particular were taking losses all over the Far East. But nowhere was the defeat worse than in Singapore.
Back then, this island on the southern side of the Malayan peninsula was called "Fortress Singapore", and known as the "Gibraltar of the East". It was thought to be military impregregnable, because, similar to Gibraltar it had famous large guns that should defeat any foe. (It is a common myth, expressed in many books describing this battle, that these guns were pointed to the south, towards the sea, and could not be turned around to face the northern invaders. This myth has since been debunked. The guns could turn around, and did, but as it turns out they were not supplied with the correct ammunition for the task they were supposed to carry out.)
The island was also a port that could service a large fleet. The idea developed by the British military between the wars was, in the event of an attack by the Japanese against Singapore, the island would hold out until the British fleet could rush to the port and defend it. However, when the Japanese attacked in December 1941, there was no fleet to send. Churchill carried out a remnant of the plan by sending the Prince of Wales, the Repulse and 4 destroyers. The two capital ships were sunk by Japanese aircraft on December 8, and this probably doomed the defense of Singapore.
The fortress was commanded by General Arthur Percival. He had at his command 85,000 soldiers, about 4 divisions: British, Austrailian, Indian, and Malayan. The attackers, under General Tomoyuki Yama####a, had only 30,000 men, but these were well armed, and they possessed light tanks. They began landing in the peninsula in December, but then Percival blew up the causeway leading to Singapore, and this delayed the assault on the island for a full month. Meanwhile, Japanese aircraft bombed the fortress on a daily basis, causing panic among the civilians and creating chaos in the command structure.
The decision was made by the British high command to evacuate all women and children- of British heritage. No 'half-breeds" or Malayans, or Indians were allowed to leave on the ships provided. Once they were underway, Duff Cooper, a member of Churchill's cabinet, stated publicly, "We have managed to rescue all of the civilians at Singapore." (Italics mine). However, some of the destroyers which carried out this evacuation to Australia were sunk en route.
The Japanese troops moved through the forest on bicycles and light tanks towards the city. Though the British troops fought bravely, (and actually had greater numbers) they could not handle the greater Japanese artillery, tanks, and most of all air support. What few RAF planes were there were quickly destroyed. It was at this point, in February, that Percival began sending Churchill urgent messages that he could not defend the island. Churchill could not understand this in light of the numbers- even now, he still failed to grasp the power of air superiority. He sent this message to Percival:
The battle must be fought to the bitter end at all costs. The 18th Division has a chance to make its name in history. Commanders and senior officers should die with their troops. The honour of the British Empire and of the British Army is at stake. I rely on you to show no mercy to weakness in any form. With the Russians fighting as they are and the Americans so stubborn at Luzon, the whole reputation of our country and our race is involved. It is expected that every unit will be brought into close contact with the enemy and fight it out ...
There is a racist element to Churchill's message, and this would continue all throughout the Pacific War. Though a great man, he was also a man of his time, and did not view Asians as being equal to white people.
Ozymandius narrated earlier how the Japanese assault in December of 1941 was amazing- besides Pearl Harbor and the Phillipines, several islands were seized, including Hong Kong. Shanghai taken on the mainland. In the Battle of the Java Sea, a wide number of naval and merchant marine ships of Dutch, British, and American origin were sunk. The British in particular were taking losses all over the Far East. But nowhere was the defeat worse than in Singapore.
Back then, this island on the southern side of the Malayan peninsula was called "Fortress Singapore", and known as the "Gibraltar of the East". It was thought to be military impregregnable, because, similar to Gibraltar it had famous large guns that should defeat any foe. (It is a common myth, expressed in many books describing this battle, that these guns were pointed to the south, towards the sea, and could not be turned around to face the northern invaders. This myth has since been debunked. The guns could turn around, and did, but as it turns out they were not supplied with the correct ammunition for the task they were supposed to carry out.)
The island was also a port that could service a large fleet. The idea developed by the British military between the wars was, in the event of an attack by the Japanese against Singapore, the island would hold out until the British fleet could rush to the port and defend it. However, when the Japanese attacked in December 1941, there was no fleet to send. Churchill carried out a remnant of the plan by sending the Prince of Wales, the Repulse and 4 destroyers. The two capital ships were sunk by Japanese aircraft on December 8, and this probably doomed the defense of Singapore.
The fortress was commanded by General Arthur Percival. He had at his command 85,000 soldiers, about 4 divisions: British, Austrailian, Indian, and Malayan. The attackers, under General Tomoyuki Yama####a, had only 30,000 men, but these were well armed, and they possessed light tanks. They began landing in the peninsula in December, but then Percival blew up the causeway leading to Singapore, and this delayed the assault on the island for a full month. Meanwhile, Japanese aircraft bombed the fortress on a daily basis, causing panic among the civilians and creating chaos in the command structure.
The decision was made by the British high command to evacuate all women and children- of British heritage. No 'half-breeds" or Malayans, or Indians were allowed to leave on the ships provided. Once they were underway, Duff Cooper, a member of Churchill's cabinet, stated publicly, "We have managed to rescue all of the civilians at Singapore." (Italics mine). However, some of the destroyers which carried out this evacuation to Australia were sunk en route.
The Japanese troops moved through the forest on bicycles and light tanks towards the city. Though the British troops fought bravely, (and actually had greater numbers) they could not handle the greater Japanese artillery, tanks, and most of all air support. What few RAF planes were there were quickly destroyed. It was at this point, in February, that Percival began sending Churchill urgent messages that he could not defend the island. Churchill could not understand this in light of the numbers- even now, he still failed to grasp the power of air superiority. He sent this message to Percival:
The battle must be fought to the bitter end at all costs. The 18th Division has a chance to make its name in history. Commanders and senior officers should die with their troops. The honour of the British Empire and of the British Army is at stake. I rely on you to show no mercy to weakness in any form. With the Russians fighting as they are and the Americans so stubborn at Luzon, the whole reputation of our country and our race is involved. It is expected that every unit will be brought into close contact with the enemy and fight it out ...
There is a racist element to Churchill's message, and this would continue all throughout the Pacific War. Though a great man, he was also a man of his time, and did not view Asians as being equal to white people.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
We were all racists then; the Japanese, the Chinese, the Indians, etc. Everyone tended to think their race and their culture was superior.timschochet said:
timschochet
Footballguy
Singapore, Part Two
On February 14, the Japanese committed a war crime for which the commanding officers, including Yama####a, were later tried by US forces. They surrounded Alexandria Hospital on the outskirts of Singapore, which was flying a white flag and a Red Cross flag. The Japanese decided to use the hospital as a military temporary headquarters, so they ordered everyone inside to leave and marched them back to an industrial area where they could be held captive: doctors, nurses, and patients. Those who could not walk were immediately bayoneted to death. Anyone who was too slow was bayoneted to death. The survivors were then herded into rooms without food and water for several days, after which most of them were killed. Out of 400 inhabitants of the hospital, only 5 survived- they were put into POW camps and their story was told after the war.
By the morning of February 15, the defenders of the city had ran out of food and ammunition. Despite Churchill's continual urges to fight on, Percival decided at this point to surrender. In this, he had the complete consent of his adjutants, though there was some dispute about this after the war. Churchill called this "the worst defeat in the history of the British Empire." All of the remaining defenders, some 70,000 men, including Percival, were taken prisoner and held throughout the war in POW camps.
The writer James Clavell, author of Shogun, was one of these. He was an RAF pilot (Hurricanes) sent to Singapore in November of 1941. He spent most of the remainder of the war in a series of POW camps, most notably Changi, one of the most infamous of these, where over 90% of all prisoners died of disease and malnutrition. Clavell's autobiographical novel King Rat describes his experiences; the character of Peter Marlowe is based on the author. I highly recommend this great novel for anyone who wants to know what these camps were really like.
On February 14, the Japanese committed a war crime for which the commanding officers, including Yama####a, were later tried by US forces. They surrounded Alexandria Hospital on the outskirts of Singapore, which was flying a white flag and a Red Cross flag. The Japanese decided to use the hospital as a military temporary headquarters, so they ordered everyone inside to leave and marched them back to an industrial area where they could be held captive: doctors, nurses, and patients. Those who could not walk were immediately bayoneted to death. Anyone who was too slow was bayoneted to death. The survivors were then herded into rooms without food and water for several days, after which most of them were killed. Out of 400 inhabitants of the hospital, only 5 survived- they were put into POW camps and their story was told after the war.
By the morning of February 15, the defenders of the city had ran out of food and ammunition. Despite Churchill's continual urges to fight on, Percival decided at this point to surrender. In this, he had the complete consent of his adjutants, though there was some dispute about this after the war. Churchill called this "the worst defeat in the history of the British Empire." All of the remaining defenders, some 70,000 men, including Percival, were taken prisoner and held throughout the war in POW camps.
The writer James Clavell, author of Shogun, was one of these. He was an RAF pilot (Hurricanes) sent to Singapore in November of 1941. He spent most of the remainder of the war in a series of POW camps, most notably Changi, one of the most infamous of these, where over 90% of all prisoners died of disease and malnutrition. Clavell's autobiographical novel King Rat describes his experiences; the character of Peter Marlowe is based on the author. I highly recommend this great novel for anyone who wants to know what these camps were really like.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
General Yamaturda (there is a way...lol) was sentenced to death and executed after the war, for this atrocity and for ones committed in the Philippines. The trial is not without its critics.
These were also the soldiers who were sent to build the Burma railroad and built the Bridge on the River Kwai.Not to defend the Japanese, but to them surrender was tantamount to death due to the dishonor of surrender. So those who surrendered were dishonored and not deserving of humane treatment.
Similar threads
