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World's Greatest Draft (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
dparker713
Footballguy
There are plenty of genre writers that do belong in the discussion. Just because the story includes elfs or jedi or whatever, doesnt mean that the work cant be thought provoking and illuminate the human condition.
Fennis
Footballguy
Abrantes
Footballguy
Man, your last two picks are excellent! I considered Pol Pot for the villain category as well.
timschochet
Footballguy
Pol Pot is a great villian. A true monster. Definitely top 5.
This makes the Judas pick look worse, frankly.
This makes the Judas pick look worse, frankly.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
Team CIA through eight rounds
A lot of heavyweights ....
Darwin
Buddha
Cleopatra
Lao Tzu
Rumi
Kant
Tchaikovsky
Pol PotI have a solid pick in the author category that I hopes slides to the next turn where I pick. Same for leader (assuming I shift Cleopatra to wildcard), but I expect the guy I'm eying will get picked soon. Miltary, I probably missed the boat here, but choices had to be made. I'll be googling furiously before making my artist selections.
A lot of heavyweights ....
Darwin
Buddha
Cleopatra
Lao Tzu
Rumi
Kant
Tchaikovsky
Pol PotI have a solid pick in the author category that I hopes slides to the next turn where I pick. Same for leader (assuming I shift Cleopatra to wildcard), but I expect the guy I'm eying will get picked soon. Miltary, I probably missed the boat here, but choices had to be made. I'll be googling furiously before making my artist selections.
timschochet
Footballguy
No, they don't belong.I'm not trying to disparage these genres, and I agree with your general point. I enjoy both science fiction and fantasy. If this was a top 100 list of greatest novelists ever, I would absolutely agree that there should be room for the genres of science fiction, fantasy, crime, mystery, intrigue, etc.But this is a top 20 list. And within that small limitation, I think you've got to stick to the big guys.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
I penciled Pol Pot in early on my cheat sheet. Never expected him to last this long. I'm not saying he deserves third ranking, but after Hitler and Stalin, he's the next guy that crosses my mind in this category.
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
now you disqualify people just because they write stories in certain genres? Really?Sorry, that's absurd...
flysack
Footballguy
Poe is often considered to have "invented" the short story though. Even his detractors say he was instrumental in its creation. Inventing a form >>>>> a genre. For what it's worth, I wavered between Poe and Proust as my #5 Novel/Short Story person because of this. Poe not only invented/helped invent the short story, he was damn good at writing them.
FUBAR
Footballguy
He is a great author, but there are probably 50 great authors. There are a few still writing that I'd rank right up with Tolkien or possibly higher. I don't know that these current authors would be drafted. ETA: two that I'm thinking of have indeed created their own universe, one of which has done a whole lot more in other books. More I think about it, I very well may draft this person late just to see what the opinion is.
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The Real Hipster Doofus
Footballguy
Yea he is a big time value at that spot. After Hitler and Stalin you could make a case for him or the Chairman at #3.
flysack
Footballguy
Awesome, awesome pick. Another guy whom I expected to go far earlier than he did. Ever hear of The Killing Fields? They're STILL finding human bones there. It's grotesque. This guy is a villain second only to Hitler and Stalin, IMO.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
Oops, forgot about Mao. Mao probably trumps Pol Pot.
timschochet
Footballguy
You're right, I didn't consider this. Good point.
HERBERT THE HIPPO
REAL Ultimate Power
8.4 Andrea Palladio - Artist/non painter
In every field there is at least one individual whose contributions far outweigh that of his predecessors and contemporaries. In architectural design those person is Andrea Palladio. A product of the High Renaissance, Palladio's villas are to architecture what Shakespeare's plays are to literature and Michelangelo's full-figure statues are to sculpture. Many would argue that his designs have been more influential than those of any other architect. While we know that's a strong statement, many architects have been using his work as a prototype for their own designs for the last four hundred and fifty years. That says a lot!
The majority of Palladio's villas still stand today and can be viewed, and in some cases toured, in his adopted city, Vicenza, as well as in Venice and on the mainland province around Venice. But his influence can be seen in the architecture throughout the world. For example, his double portico-loggia motif was employed in Jefferson's Monticello and became a recurrent feature in Georgian, Adam, and Colonial American architecture.
His work was central to the development of the American Southern style as well as the whole of American architecture, but his influence is not limited to America. His work also helped to shape Western architecture in the 17th and 18th century, and even today we see his influence in contemporary homes.
Palladio was born in Padua, a mainland possession of the island-based Republic of Venice, in the year 1508, and was first named Andrea di Pietro della Gondola. When he was thirteen years old, he had a short stint as an apprentice to a stonecutter, but after eighteen months, he broke his contract and moved to the nearby town of Vicenza, where he would remain for much of his life. There, he became an assistant in the workshops of stonecutters and masons. Then, at the age of 30, he formed the most important relationship of his career. He began working with XXXXX, a highly respected scholar of the time. The two men worked together on adding new additions to Trissino's villa.
XXXXX became a mentor to Palladio, instructing him on the principles of classical architecture and the other disciplines of Renaissance education. He also introduced his protege to a flourishing group of patrons in Vicenza, Padua, and Venice, many of whom he would later work for. XXXXX also coined the name that the world would forever associate with the famous architect – Palladio. During this period, as the designer developed his skills, he spent a great deal of time studying –learning the principles of the classical Roman architect, XXXXX, and the Renaissance architectural commentator, XXXXX. Palladio also began to circulate in the community of architects in Vicenza.
The year 1538 was a highly productive point in Palladio's career. During this time, he began construction on Villa Godi, which was the first in a series of villas and urban palaces that he would design for the nobility of Vicenza. After a decade of successes, Palladio began receiving commissions for country villas from the nobility of Venice. The wealth of his clientele allowed the architect to experiment a great deal more than he previously had. As a result, this period of his career was marked by his innovative and distinctive creations, which elevated his status among his fellow architects. In time, the homes and buildings of the entire Western world would become inspired by Palladio's creations from this period.
Most notably, Palladio introduced the concept that a house should accommodate the individuals living in it. His designs of four-walled rooms and how the rooms in a house fit together have remained the prototype for contemporary homes. The fact that his influence is still felt today is testament to the reality that the needs of the individual four hundred and fifty years ago are, in many respects, the same as ours today.
Palladio ensured his prominence in the history of architecture by writing his highly revered treatise, The Four Books of Architecture. In the publication, he covers the principles of the field, and he also gives practical advice. It is still an important resource for architectural students today and has been translated into every European language.
At age seventy-two, Palladio died in his adopted town of Vicenza.
Students of design should study Palladio's work not only because he is a master in his field, but also because students will further understand the basic needs of human beings, upon which his work drew. To understand Palladio's work is to understand the marriage between people and architecture.
In every field there is at least one individual whose contributions far outweigh that of his predecessors and contemporaries. In architectural design those person is Andrea Palladio. A product of the High Renaissance, Palladio's villas are to architecture what Shakespeare's plays are to literature and Michelangelo's full-figure statues are to sculpture. Many would argue that his designs have been more influential than those of any other architect. While we know that's a strong statement, many architects have been using his work as a prototype for their own designs for the last four hundred and fifty years. That says a lot!
The majority of Palladio's villas still stand today and can be viewed, and in some cases toured, in his adopted city, Vicenza, as well as in Venice and on the mainland province around Venice. But his influence can be seen in the architecture throughout the world. For example, his double portico-loggia motif was employed in Jefferson's Monticello and became a recurrent feature in Georgian, Adam, and Colonial American architecture.
His work was central to the development of the American Southern style as well as the whole of American architecture, but his influence is not limited to America. His work also helped to shape Western architecture in the 17th and 18th century, and even today we see his influence in contemporary homes.
Palladio was born in Padua, a mainland possession of the island-based Republic of Venice, in the year 1508, and was first named Andrea di Pietro della Gondola. When he was thirteen years old, he had a short stint as an apprentice to a stonecutter, but after eighteen months, he broke his contract and moved to the nearby town of Vicenza, where he would remain for much of his life. There, he became an assistant in the workshops of stonecutters and masons. Then, at the age of 30, he formed the most important relationship of his career. He began working with XXXXX, a highly respected scholar of the time. The two men worked together on adding new additions to Trissino's villa.
XXXXX became a mentor to Palladio, instructing him on the principles of classical architecture and the other disciplines of Renaissance education. He also introduced his protege to a flourishing group of patrons in Vicenza, Padua, and Venice, many of whom he would later work for. XXXXX also coined the name that the world would forever associate with the famous architect – Palladio. During this period, as the designer developed his skills, he spent a great deal of time studying –learning the principles of the classical Roman architect, XXXXX, and the Renaissance architectural commentator, XXXXX. Palladio also began to circulate in the community of architects in Vicenza.
The year 1538 was a highly productive point in Palladio's career. During this time, he began construction on Villa Godi, which was the first in a series of villas and urban palaces that he would design for the nobility of Vicenza. After a decade of successes, Palladio began receiving commissions for country villas from the nobility of Venice. The wealth of his clientele allowed the architect to experiment a great deal more than he previously had. As a result, this period of his career was marked by his innovative and distinctive creations, which elevated his status among his fellow architects. In time, the homes and buildings of the entire Western world would become inspired by Palladio's creations from this period.
Most notably, Palladio introduced the concept that a house should accommodate the individuals living in it. His designs of four-walled rooms and how the rooms in a house fit together have remained the prototype for contemporary homes. The fact that his influence is still felt today is testament to the reality that the needs of the individual four hundred and fifty years ago are, in many respects, the same as ours today.
Palladio ensured his prominence in the history of architecture by writing his highly revered treatise, The Four Books of Architecture. In the publication, he covers the principles of the field, and he also gives practical advice. It is still an important resource for architectural students today and has been translated into every European language.
At age seventy-two, Palladio died in his adopted town of Vicenza.
Students of design should study Palladio's work not only because he is a master in his field, but also because students will further understand the basic needs of human beings, upon which his work drew. To understand Palladio's work is to understand the marriage between people and architecture.
timschochet
Footballguy
Larry, it's not absurd, because we're talking top 20.now you disqualify people just because they write stories in certain genres? Really?Sorry, that's absurd...
Mario Kart
Footballguy
OUCH, I have never used popularity as a barometer for greatness. Tolkien created something, and something big, from something that was not there. What author before Tolkien or even after created something of that magnitude? His work spawned a whole new genre much like Monet did with his work. Different medium, similar results... on a graduated scale.
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
you know what's crazy about this draft?
The older you are, the more important you are in this draft in every single category but one...
That category? Villain...
modern villains are MASSIVELY getting more airtime than ancient ones (and even the ancient ones are being considered for the military or leader categories)
I mean Atilla the Hun is, according to Wikipedia, remembered as "the epitome of cruelty and rapacity." I don't even know what rapacity is but it sure sounds completely and utterly evil... But yet we're saying he's #5 most evil person at best...
Why?
Because we are downgrading any recent military leader, political leader, military leader, artist, composer, musician, intellectual, or anything else in favor of the ancient...
but we are upgrading recent villains because their acts of evil are so much more fresh on our minds...
Its just an interesting contrast to our reaction to the rest of the draft (where recent = bad)...
The older you are, the more important you are in this draft in every single category but one...
That category? Villain...
modern villains are MASSIVELY getting more airtime than ancient ones (and even the ancient ones are being considered for the military or leader categories)
I mean Atilla the Hun is, according to Wikipedia, remembered as "the epitome of cruelty and rapacity." I don't even know what rapacity is but it sure sounds completely and utterly evil... But yet we're saying he's #5 most evil person at best...
Why?
Because we are downgrading any recent military leader, political leader, military leader, artist, composer, musician, intellectual, or anything else in favor of the ancient...
but we are upgrading recent villains because their acts of evil are so much more fresh on our minds...
Its just an interesting contrast to our reaction to the rest of the draft (where recent = bad)...
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
so what... the best books are the best books no matter if they include guns, spaceships, lightsabres, or time travel. Who cares what the writer uses to tell their story, all that matters is if the story is good...Larry, it's not absurd, because we're talking top 20.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Wow. CIA you took my two next guys. Pol Pot is a serious fiend. His death toll isn't high enough to challenge but his methods are as depraved as anyone on the list.
Eta. Proportionately his toll is probably higher than the others.
Eta. Proportionately his toll is probably higher than the others.
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The Real Hipster Doofus
Footballguy
Attila is slotted as a leader so why would we be discussing him for the villian category?
timschochet
Footballguy
In the case of villains, sheer numbers prevail. Atilla killed thousands of people. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot killed millions.
Abrantes
Footballguy
Hmmm. I'm sure others are more knowledgeable than me in this particular subject, so hopefully they can help me out. Did Poe really "invent" the short story? At any rate, he was instrumental in formalizing its structure, by all accounts. I'm just curious as to how much credit he actually gets for the short story as a medium.
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
last I head Mao was slotted as a leader, too...plus, I want you to realize something...someone who is describes as "the epitome of cruelty and rapacity" is a leader in this draft...does "cruelty and rapacity" sound like good leadership qualities to anyone else around here?My point isn't that Attila is a bad leader, obviously he did great at leading his empire, it was huge and expanded a ton under him...My point was that if he were a villain, where would he be ranked? From how people talk, it seems like we'd put all 4 of the modern villains above both him and Khan... Which just doesn't sound right to me...Like I said, I think we're downgrading ancient villains (as I can think of people in the ancient world who did things just as bad as what these modern villains did, they just had lower death counts because they had to use sharp objects to kill instead of bombs, guns, and ovens) and then downgrading modern everything else...I just find it interesting that evil is the only thing we give equal credence to in the modern world... We assume that our art, our music, our leaders, and our military are inferior to those who are past... But we also assume that our villains are worse...
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
sheer numbers are irrelevant...I mean the guy who flew the plane that dropped the A bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki have a higher death count than some truly evil people from history, doesn't mean that that person is more evil than they are...I've never heard the word "rapacity" used to describe Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or Pol Pot... It is used to describe Attila the Hun...plus you need to include technology (we have ways to kill more than one person at a time now, they didn't have that when Attila was being evil) and population (we have more people living in at least 3 countries on earth right now than were on the planet when Atilla was alive)...
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larry_boy_44
Footballguy
I mean, do you really think if you gave Attila the Hun machine guns, death ovens, artillery, bombs, and nukes he wouldn't kill more people than Hitler, Stalin, Mao, & Pol Pot did?
he ravages half a continent with swords, spears, bows, and arrows... imagine what he'd do with bullets and bombs...
same with Genghis Khan and a ton others...
he ravages half a continent with swords, spears, bows, and arrows... imagine what he'd do with bullets and bombs...
same with Genghis Khan and a ton others...
dparker713
Footballguy
Big guys like Proust? Drivel wrapped up in 500 word sentences. Or Dickens? The guy got paid by the word and it shows. Social commentary and human relationships dont need to be set in 18th century Russia to contain truth.
timschochet
Footballguy
Are you talking about this thread, or the FFA in general?Because I can think of a few people...
Mister CIA
Footballguy
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
I'm assuming people who don't think that evil is good... lol
The Real Hipster Doofus
Footballguy
Well for one we are talking about different eras. When Attilla was around conquest was everything, and the world is general was not a nice place. He was a great leader for that time period. Mao was slotted as a leader but I think he works better as a villian. Whereas Attila is slotted as a leader and that is probably his best spot.
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
so you think someone who is described as the "epitomy of cruelty and rapacity" qualifies better for leader than villain? really?because I don't understand that...
Abrantes
Footballguy
Without spotlighting too much, I feel that sheer numbers should definitely play a role in the villain category, given proper context. It gives an idea of just how far a person is willing to go in order to accomplish his/her goals. Judging the monstrosity and evilness of a person's disposition is a valid argument, but heads into extremely subjective ground, so it shouldn't be the only criteria. These two points of view have to be taken into account.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
Interesting because last I heard the people you mentioned maybe killed 100+ people by themselves. Now, were millions killed in "their name" or "for them", probably, but the person themselves did not do the killing. In that same respect, given your statement, Jesus and possibly Muhammad would be 1a/1b in the Villain category due to sheer numbers.
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
I agree...for instance, I think Pol Pot's murder of more than 25% of the population of his country is more impressive than how many people Mao has killed (unless of course Mao has killed, say, 100,000,000 or more)...its not just about sheer number, its about % of population, its about how many people you convinced that killing 1/4 of the people around them is a good idea...also, the more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards thinking that Pol Pot is the #1 villain... yes, even over Hitler...
Mister CIA
Footballguy
When it comes to ranking villains, I think that the two main areas of concern are death toll and terror. How to best weight these is hard to say.
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
but how can you purely compare death toll from today (when you can destroy the entire planet pretty much literally with the push of a button) to 10,000 years ago when they had pointy sticks???
The Real Hipster Doofus
Footballguy
He built his country into an empire while being the "epitome of cruelty and rapacity" so yea I think he qualifies as a good leader. Here is the line after the one you quoted: " In contrast, some histories and chronicles lionize him as a great and noble king, and he plays major roles in three Norse sagas." Not all great leaders have to be people like George Washington. Khan and Attila built empires, whether they were nice guys or not.
The Real Hipster Doofus
Footballguy
There is still a big time leader out there for the taking. Can't believe he is still there.
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
Mao, Stalin, & Hitler built empires, too...Heck, Hitler was a few errors and some incredible luck away from literally taking over the entire earth (rather than just the entire "known world")...my point still stands that we are overrating the evil of the modern world and massively underrating the good of it...
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The Real Hipster Doofus
Footballguy
As I said you are comparing different eras. Hitler, Stalin and Mao operated in what we like to refer to as the civilized age, so their atrocities stand out in comparison. Look back though history and you will find countless stories of what you would probably classify as cruelty and rapacity. Hitler was a very skilled leader, who built a torn down country into a superpower. That is all overlooked because of what else he did. Last I checked Attila did not kill 6 million plus people of a certain ethnicity. This whole draft people has been focused on the ancient history with modern history as almost an afterthought. That should tell you all you need to know about these guys coming off the board as early as they did.
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
no, Attila didn't, he just killed everyone in his path...and nothing you said invalidates what I said about how we are over-valuing modern evil and under-valuing modern good... If anything what you just said is actually agreeing with my premise...
The Real Hipster Doofus
Footballguy
What I said is that almost every single category in this draft has been dominated by people from before the modern era. Yet villian is almost completely modern era. That tells you all you need to know, and it does not support your premise.
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
yes it does...EVERY CATEGORY is almost devoid of modern era people... and the categories most likely to have modern people (athlete, musical performer, celebrity) are almost void of picks...except villain...We had 2 villains from the modern era picked in round 1... another person considered truly evil and a "definite top 5 villain" drafted in round 2...in all the other categories combined we have Einstein, Ghandi, and maybe Tesla drafted in round 1 who lived after 1900...The Beatles and Mother Theresa in round 2...Himmler (another villain who was actually secondary to one of the prior villains) in round 3...Armstrong, Ali, Lee, Lenin (ANOTHER villain) and Gagarin in round 4... (note: not sure about Hugo, Voltaire, or Van Gogh)so AT BEST through 4 rounds we had 5 villains drafted who lived after 1900... and 11 people in every other category combined drafted who lived after 1900...and 2 of the 5 villains were secondary villains to 2 of the other villains drafted... (note: I realize that Mao and Lenin weren't put in Villain, but everyone reacted like they should have been when they were drafted)Sorry, but the evidence shows us absolutely that we think our evil is the worst the world has ever seen and that our good just doesn't measure up...
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
also, seriously... I'd love to hear the other reasoning for why what I'm describing is happening...
Do you actually think that the five most evil men ever to live have all lived in the last 100 years of human history?
That the combined evil of the last hundred years is really greater than the combined evil of the entire rest of human history?
Really?
Do you actually think that the five most evil men ever to live have all lived in the last 100 years of human history?
That the combined evil of the last hundred years is really greater than the combined evil of the entire rest of human history?
Really?
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