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World's Greatest Draft (1 Viewer)

I have read the debates in this thread about villains and while I do not totally agree with the "body count" makes the villain the worst argument, it does hold some sway. If Hitler is going to be charged with ~30 million lives or whatever number it is... how many did he kill directly? Probably not many but that number was "in his name" which makes him bad. On the flip side, Jesus was not about killing people nor did he probably take another life but people after him have killed "in his name" and therefore he would be considered bad if put into the Villain category. At least he should be because more people have died "in his name" than any other person in history. So, if those people could be considered bad or villains because people have died "in their name" how would the catalyst to those events stack up? People will not have died in this person's name but it was because of him that many millions of people died. People do not worship this man but millions perished because of what he did. Is he the worst of the worst? Depends who you ask. But, the worst of the worst happened because of this man. People have asked if Hitler never was in power what would have happened? What if Hitler was never given the chance to get into power to begin with? This man, allowed Hitler to rise up into power and cause the damage he did. He also helped Stalin become the evil he did. Sure, Europe was not the most steady of places in the 1910's but a spark is needed before the fire starts. With that said, Mario Kart selects:
This is an absolutely absurd statement. There is a phenomenal difference between preaching hate and enacting a plan to exterminate a race versus having centuries of civilizations go on killing sprees in your name. You could easily make an argument for all of the negative impact Jesus and Christianity has had, one that I won't get into, but there's no way you can compare Jesus to a villain. If that's the way it is then Jodie Foster could be a villain for inspiring the attack on Reagan.Now if you want to put the Church and some Popes in the villain category you won't get much argument from me.

As for your villain, IIRC that was just a final straw in mounting tensions that were about to erupt at any moment anyways. Symbolically he started the war with his act but the war was going to happen with or without him. I think the only person who will say he's the worst of the worst if asked is you.

 
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10.19 The Virgin Mary, Celebrity

Jesus has been bugging me to get His mom on the team for a while now, and I just couldn't take it anymore...

Now, I know this is a strange pick, especially since I'm pretty sure Mary wasn't venerated as much as she is now when she was alive, but seriously now people, what says "celebrity" more than heated debates about a person's sexual history?

In all seriousness, though, Mary's face (or what we think of as her face) is seen everywhere and its always a big deal...

Plus who wouldn't want Holy Toast? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4019295.stm
Nice. I was "thisclose" to drafting her and placing her as my Saint. But I figured I'd get a lot of "what did she actually do except give birth?" comments. Celebrity is a good category, she's one of the most recognized faces now - even though she wasn't during her own time.
I would put her in inventor. Only woman in history to get pregnant from another man and successfully lie her way out of it.Yankee, please don't get offended, it's meant tongue in cheek and by placing her in celebrity category with her image on toast this pick is going to be wide open for jokes.

As with all biblical figures there is a caveat. All of her divine attributes, including the virgin birth and son of God parts, are to be disregarded for judging.

 
For you scoring at home, I present Team Pinko:

Leader--Mao Zedong, Father of Modern China. Let a Million Flowers Bloom.

Military--Georgi Zhukov, Georgy the Victory Bringer

Scientist--Alexander Fleming, Father of anti-biotics

Inventor

Discoverer/Explorer

Humanitarian/Saint/Martyr--Joan of Arc, St. Joan, the Mother of France

Novelist/short story

Playwright/Poet

Villain--Lavrenti Beria, Party Executioner

Athlete

Composer

Muscian/ Performer

Painter Leonardo--Da Vinci THE Renissance Man!

Artist/ Non Painter

Philosopher--Karl Marx, Father of all Communists

Religious Figure--Cardinal Richelieu The Man in Red

Celebrity--King Tutankhamen, Has a condo made of stone-a!

Intellectual

Rebel--V.I. Lenin, the definition of REBEL.

Wildcard

Wildcard

Wildcard

5 loyal Party members and many more, who'd have joined the proletariat comrades if they'd had the chance!

 
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The only problem with Lenin and Fidel Castro as rebels is that they were only rebels until they achieved power. Once on top, both of them were relentless in crushing rebellion and forcing their followers to stick to an orthodox party line under pain of death. They both became extremely conservative, quite the opposite of rebels.

Of course, this may be true for almost anyone who enjoys a successful rebellion...

 
Question for you, Larry: if I were drafting, and I selected Jesus, and immediately put him in celebrity, would it bother you? Would you be offended in any way?
Being Catholicish I know that Jesus would roll with the punches and if people wanted him to be a celebrity then he'd be good with that. Him and his Peeps only care about the message and if more people get the message through his celebrity then so be it.
Only problem I'd have with it is I doubt he'd be recognized.
Recognized I see him all the time at the corner of Bay and Bloor preaching the message. He's not nearly as neat and tidy as he looks in his pictures though.
 
The more I think about the Mary pick, the more I like it. She certainly is a celebrity- just ask about half of the painters chosen, to whom she was a favorite subject.

But the point of my question is that I'm really not sure that Larry would have put Jesus in this category because it's slightly demeaning- being a celebrity essentially means you are more famous for your name rather than any particular thing that you did. That Larry seems willing to assign this role to Mary is somewhat of a contradiction. He claims that Jesus ought to be the #1 religious figure (and #1 draft pick) not because he is divine but because millions of people believe he is divine. Yet millions of people also believe that Mary is divine, or at least semi-divine. They certainly worship her, and have worshipped her for centuries.

 
The more I think about the Mary pick, the more I like it. She certainly is a celebrity- just ask about half of the painters chosen, to whom she was a favorite subject. But the point of my question is that I'm really not sure that Larry would have put Jesus in this category because it's slightly demeaning- being a celebrity essentially means you are more famous for your name rather than any particular thing that you did. That Larry seems willing to assign this role to Mary is somewhat of a contradiction. He claims that Jesus ought to be the #1 religious figure (and #1 draft pick) not because he is divine but because millions of people believe he is divine. Yet millions of people also believe that Mary is divine, or at least semi-divine. They certainly worship her, and have worshipped her for centuries.
I can see your point. I think Larry shouldn't have conceded the divinity reasoning so easily. From a Christian, but non-Catholic, worldview I can see how one would think Jesus qualifies as the #1 religious figure and Mary qualifies as a celebrity. But since more than half of Christians are Catholics, he's torpedoing his own argument, IMHO.
 
Question for you, Larry: if I were drafting, and I selected Jesus, and immediately put him in celebrity, would it bother you? Would you be offended in any way?
not at all...if I were going to go all super religious on this draft the idea that we're drafting Jesus at all would probably be offensive.... But I think people like that are absurd and silly (and I feel quite stupid for all the times that I said/did things that approached that level of... insanity? Sillyness? I dunno something...)The reason i put Mary in celebrity isn't because she wouldn't fit in religious figures or saints/martyrs/humanitarians... Its because I think that's where she best fits and allows me to go other places with my draft...Is she a valid religious figure? Yes, very much so. I think she's probably fit in the humanitarian/saint/martyr category as well (as she is, I think, a saint)... But I have a Religious Figure and I want someone else for my saint/martyr/humanitarian...
 
10.19 The Virgin Mary, Celebrity

Jesus has been bugging me to get His mom on the team for a while now, and I just couldn't take it anymore...

Now, I know this is a strange pick, especially since I'm pretty sure Mary wasn't venerated as much as she is now when she was alive, but seriously now people, what says "celebrity" more than heated debates about a person's sexual history?

In all seriousness, though, Mary's face (or what we think of as her face) is seen everywhere and its always a big deal...

Plus who wouldn't want Holy Toast? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4019295.stm
Nice. I was "thisclose" to drafting her and placing her as my Saint. But I figured I'd get a lot of "what did she actually do except give birth?" comments. Celebrity is a good category, she's one of the most recognized faces now - even though she wasn't during her own time.
:goodposting: I don't get the "and the other shoe drops" comments like its a horrible pick... Mary was an important figure in history and is still a very important figure to well over a billion people (more if you count those who just think she was an important figure and not a saint or always a virgin or the other Catholic-specific stuff)

 
10.19 The Virgin Mary, Celebrity

Jesus has been bugging me to get His mom on the team for a while now, and I just couldn't take it anymore...

Now, I know this is a strange pick, especially since I'm pretty sure Mary wasn't venerated as much as she is now when she was alive, but seriously now people, what says "celebrity" more than heated debates about a person's sexual history?

In all seriousness, though, Mary's face (or what we think of as her face) is seen everywhere and its always a big deal...

Plus who wouldn't want Holy Toast? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4019295.stm
Nice. I was "thisclose" to drafting her and placing her as my Saint. But I figured I'd get a lot of "what did she actually do except give birth?" comments. Celebrity is a good category, she's one of the most recognized faces now - even though she wasn't during her own time.
I would put her in inventor. Only woman in history to get pregnant from another man and successfully lie her way out of it.Yankee, please don't get offended, it's meant tongue in cheek and by placing her in celebrity category with her image on toast this pick is going to be wide open for jokes.

As with all biblical figures there is a caveat. All of her divine attributes, including the virgin birth and son of God parts, are to be disregarded for judging.
I picked her for quite a lot more than just her image on toast...I'm not 100% certain, but I would be greatly surprised to find a Catholic Church that didn't have a statue/image of her somewhere inside of it...

plus there is the toast and all the other "sightings" that happen all the time... the miracles associated with her...

and i didn't pick her for the divine attributes (as I'm not Catholic, I believe simply that she was a woman blessed of God and chosen for a miraculous event), I chose her for what others believe about her...

 
in defense of my pick, this is how "celebrity" is defined:

17. Celebrities Could be movie stars, athletes, other famous people. These are the ones who everywhere they go, people recognize them.
if it would have stopped at "movie stars, athletes, other famous people." I wouldn't have drafted Mary as a celebrity...HOWEVER, I don't see how anyone could argue that the image of Mary isn't recognized everywhere they go and hasn't been recognized like that for over 1000 years...Is Mary more than "just a celebrity"? OF COURSE SHE IS!But that doesn't mean that she doesn't fit into the definition of this category as well...as I said before, I think Mary would be a top 10 Religious Figure and arguable for top 20 as Saint/Martyr... But I think that, going by category description and looking at the whole scope of human history, she is the worlds greatest celebrity as she is the most recognizable face/person in the history of the world (ok, maybe not #1, but real close)...if Paul had fallen to me, I was considering moving Jesus to celebrity (among a few other categories) and I'm one of the biggest Bible Thumpers around here... I mean it as no disrespect at all... Its simply a statement of how recognizable of a figure that she is...
 
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Even Mohammad thought Mary was something special:

Mary, mother of Jesus, is mentioned more in the Qur'an than in the entire New Testament. She enjoys a singularly distinguished and honored position amongst women in the Qur'an. A chapter in the Qur'an is titled "Maryam" (Mary), in which the story of Mary and Jesus is recounted according to the Islamic view of Jesus.She is the only woman directly named in the Qur'an; declared (uniquely along with Jesus) to be a Sign of God to mankind [Qur'an 23:50]; as one who "guarded her chastity" [Qur'an 66:20]; an obedient one [Qur'an 66:12]; chosen of her mother and dedicated to Allah whilst still in the womb [Qur'an 3:36]; uniquely (amongst women) Accepted into service by Allah [Qur'an 3:37]; cared for by (one of the prophets as per Islam) Zakariya (Zacharias) [Qur'an 3:37]; that in her childhood she resided in the Temple and uniquely had access to Al-Mihrab (understood to be the Holy of Holies), and was provided with heavenly 'provisions' by God [Qur'an 3:37]; a Chosen One [Qur'an 3:42]; a Purified One [Qur'an 3:42]; a Truthful one [Qur'an 5:75]; her child conceived through "a Word from God" [Qur'an 3:45]; and "exalted above all women of The Worlds/Universes" [Qur'an 3:42].The Qur'an relates detailed narrative accounts of Maryam (Mary) in two places Sura 3 and Sura 19 [Qur'an 3:35] and [Qur'an 19:16].The account given in Sura 19 [Qur'an 19:1] of the Qur'an is nearly identical with that in the Gospel according to Luke, and both of these (Luke, Sura 19) begin with an account of the visitation of an angel upon Zakariya (Zecharias) and Good News of the birth of Yahya (John), followed by the account of the annunciation.
:goodposting:other than Jesus (who is on my team), Mohammad, and maybe a very small number of people... who else is a more recognized figure in all of human history?If you asked every person on earth "who is _________" about everyone in this draft, who exactly do you think would people know more than Mary? If we're defining "celebrity" as "recognizable" and our rules basically say that, Mary is a great fit...
 
The more I think about the Mary pick, the more I like it. She certainly is a celebrity- just ask about half of the painters chosen, to whom she was a favorite subject. But the point of my question is that I'm really not sure that Larry would have put Jesus in this category because it's slightly demeaning- being a celebrity essentially means you are more famous for your name rather than any particular thing that you did. That Larry seems willing to assign this role to Mary is somewhat of a contradiction. He claims that Jesus ought to be the #1 religious figure (and #1 draft pick) not because he is divine but because millions of people believe he is divine. Yet millions of people also believe that Mary is divine, or at least semi-divine. They certainly worship her, and have worshipped her for centuries.
The judging of Celebrities is going to be a cluster. I mean how do you seriously and objectively compare King Tut, the Virgin Mary, Princess Diana, and others?
 
in defense of my pick, this is how "celebrity" is defined:

17. Celebrities Could be movie stars, athletes, other famous people. These are the ones who everywhere they go, people recognize them.
if it would have stopped at "movie stars, athletes, other famous people." I wouldn't have drafted Mary as a celebrity...HOWEVER, I don't see how anyone could argue that the image of Mary isn't recognized everywhere they go and hasn't been recognized like that for over 1000 years...Is Mary more than "just a celebrity"? OF COURSE SHE IS!But that doesn't mean that she doesn't fit into the definition of this category as well...as I said before, I think Mary would be a top 10 Religious Figure and arguable for top 20 as Saint/Martyr... But I think that, going by category description and looking at the whole scope of human history, she is the worlds greatest celebrity as she is the most recognizable face/person in the history of the world (ok, maybe not #1, but real close)...if Paul had fallen to me, I was considering moving Jesus to celebrity (among a few other categories) and I'm one of the biggest Bible Thumpers around here... I mean it as no disrespect at all... Its simply a statement of how recognizable of a figure that she is...
Osama Bin Laden's face is recognized all around the world as well. Does that make him a worthy celebrity pick?
 
in defense of my pick, this is how "celebrity" is defined:

17. Celebrities Could be movie stars, athletes, other famous people. These are the ones who everywhere they go, people recognize them.
if it would have stopped at "movie stars, athletes, other famous people." I wouldn't have drafted Mary as a celebrity...HOWEVER, I don't see how anyone could argue that the image of Mary isn't recognized everywhere they go and hasn't been recognized like that for over 1000 years...Is Mary more than "just a celebrity"? OF COURSE SHE IS!But that doesn't mean that she doesn't fit into the definition of this category as well...as I said before, I think Mary would be a top 10 Religious Figure and arguable for top 20 as Saint/Martyr... But I think that, going by category description and looking at the whole scope of human history, she is the worlds greatest celebrity as she is the most recognizable face/person in the history of the world (ok, maybe not #1, but real close)...if Paul had fallen to me, I was considering moving Jesus to celebrity (among a few other categories) and I'm one of the biggest Bible Thumpers around here... I mean it as no disrespect at all... Its simply a statement of how recognizable of a figure that she is...
Osama Bin Laden's face is recognized all around the world as well. Does that make him a worthy celebrity pick?
yes... We hate him, but in the Muslim world (ie the Middle East) he seems to be quite famous and well regarded...
 
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The more I think about the Mary pick, the more I like it. She certainly is a celebrity- just ask about half of the painters chosen, to whom she was a favorite subject. But the point of my question is that I'm really not sure that Larry would have put Jesus in this category because it's slightly demeaning- being a celebrity essentially means you are more famous for your name rather than any particular thing that you did. That Larry seems willing to assign this role to Mary is somewhat of a contradiction. He claims that Jesus ought to be the #1 religious figure (and #1 draft pick) not because he is divine but because millions of people believe he is divine. Yet millions of people also believe that Mary is divine, or at least semi-divine. They certainly worship her, and have worshipped her for centuries.
The judging of Celebrities is going to be a cluster. I mean how do you seriously and objectively compare King Tut, the Virgin Mary, Princess Diana, and others?
By their body of work?In which case I'll take Pope John Paul II over any of these, including Mary. Yes she's the mother of Jesus, but what else did she do? :thumbup:By most recognized?Mary, Tut, Pope and Di are pretty much in a league of their own. I could argue that if you put these 4 in a room with a wide diversity of people, the Pope would be the easiest to recognize. Simply because the pictures of Mary probably don't accurately reflect reality. Di would be close. It is a cluster, almost as difficult as judging immigrants was.
 
in defense of my pick, this is how "celebrity" is defined:

17. Celebrities Could be movie stars, athletes, other famous people. These are the ones who everywhere they go, people recognize them.
if it would have stopped at "movie stars, athletes, other famous people." I wouldn't have drafted Mary as a celebrity...HOWEVER, I don't see how anyone could argue that the image of Mary isn't recognized everywhere they go and hasn't been recognized like that for over 1000 years...Is Mary more than "just a celebrity"? OF COURSE SHE IS!But that doesn't mean that she doesn't fit into the definition of this category as well...as I said before, I think Mary would be a top 10 Religious Figure and arguable for top 20 as Saint/Martyr... But I think that, going by category description and looking at the whole scope of human history, she is the worlds greatest celebrity as she is the most recognizable face/person in the history of the world (ok, maybe not #1, but real close)...if Paul had fallen to me, I was considering moving Jesus to celebrity (among a few other categories) and I'm one of the biggest Bible Thumpers around here... I mean it as no disrespect at all... Its simply a statement of how recognizable of a figure that she is...
Osama Bin Laden's face is recognized all around the world as well. Does that make him a worthy celebrity pick?
yes... We hate him, but in the Muslim world (ie the Middle East) he seems to be quite famous and well regarded...
what does hate or being well regarded have to do with celebrity? Simply put, do we recognize the person? If Satan were able to be drafted (I really hope we aren't going down that road) IMO he'd be a fine celebrity if not classified as villain. Celebrity does not have to equal respected or liked.
 
Now, to Madonna - if we don't go by record sales, what do we go by?
So the mark of a good novelist is how many of his books have been sold?I guess the judges have an easy task. I'm sure there's some internet site with this info.
C'mon. Novelists and musicians are different animals. There aren't massive world wide book readings in arenas to help measure the popularity and impact of a writer.
 
in defense of my pick, this is how "celebrity" is defined:

17. Celebrities Could be movie stars, athletes, other famous people. These are the ones who everywhere they go, people recognize them.
if it would have stopped at "movie stars, athletes, other famous people." I wouldn't have drafted Mary as a celebrity...HOWEVER, I don't see how anyone could argue that the image of Mary isn't recognized everywhere they go and hasn't been recognized like that for over 1000 years...Is Mary more than "just a celebrity"? OF COURSE SHE IS!But that doesn't mean that she doesn't fit into the definition of this category as well...as I said before, I think Mary would be a top 10 Religious Figure and arguable for top 20 as Saint/Martyr... But I think that, going by category description and looking at the whole scope of human history, she is the worlds greatest celebrity as she is the most recognizable face/person in the history of the world (ok, maybe not #1, but real close)...if Paul had fallen to me, I was considering moving Jesus to celebrity (among a few other categories) and I'm one of the biggest Bible Thumpers around here... I mean it as no disrespect at all... Its simply a statement of how recognizable of a figure that she is...
Osama Bin Laden's face is recognized all around the world as well. Does that make him a worthy celebrity pick?
yes... We hate him, but in the Muslim world (ie the Middle East) he seems to be quite famous and well regarded...
what does hate or being well regarded have to do with celebrity? Simply put, do we recognize the person? If Satan were able to be drafted (I really hope we aren't going down that road) IMO he'd be a fine celebrity if not classified as villain. Celebrity does not have to equal respected or liked.
valid point...I guess I had thought of it as "positively thought of"... lolbut you are right...
 
I think Mary is the perfect celebrity. I'm thinking of the category as nothing more then a popular wildcard slot. And when it comes to people around the world - for centuries mind you - being able to identify a face or name she is up there.

Never would have thought of her myself though. You could also, obviously, throw her in the religious category and she has to be up there considering the Catholic aspect.

 
I was going to take Princip as a rebel, and then decided that he fits better in a wildcard spot so I like the pick, although he's going to be an interesting judging exercise. He killed one person, and he did it as part of a rising people's rebellion. And his rhetoric surely was similar to someone that headed a massive movement. But the events that happened after he fired that gun were entirely out of his hands.Ho is an interesting pick as well. I wouldn't rank him in the top 20 leaders but I can see an argument.

 
I was going to take Princip as a rebel, and then decided that he fits better in a wildcard spot so I like the pick, although he's going to be an interesting judging exercise. He killed one person, and he did it as part of a rising people's rebellion. And his rhetoric surely was similar to someone that headed a massive movement. But the events that happened after he fired that gun were entirely out of his hands.Ho is an interesting pick as well. I wouldn't rank him in the top 20 leaders but I can see an argument.
Crossbow wasn't it?
 
One thing I have to say about all the Mary sightings and her being immediately recognizable throughout the world, I've never, ever seen her look Middle Eastern or Jewish or anything other than a white woman. Does the fact that she is recognized as someone who she really wasn't a factor? I mean, I've never seen an image of her that looks anything close to what she probably looked like, though I haven't been in a church in almost 20 years after I was forced to be confirmed (you know, reaffirm the baptism as a child, only I dunno how I had any more choice then than I did as a babe) and my first and only act as an adult in the church was to give them the bird and walk away.

 
in defense of my pick, this is how "celebrity" is defined:

17. Celebrities Could be movie stars, athletes, other famous people. These are the ones who everywhere they go, people recognize them.
if it would have stopped at "movie stars, athletes, other famous people." I wouldn't have drafted Mary as a celebrity...HOWEVER, I don't see how anyone could argue that the image of Mary isn't recognized everywhere they go and hasn't been recognized like that for over 1000 years...Is Mary more than "just a celebrity"? OF COURSE SHE IS!But that doesn't mean that she doesn't fit into the definition of this category as well...as I said before, I think Mary would be a top 10 Religious Figure and arguable for top 20 as Saint/Martyr... But I think that, going by category description and looking at the whole scope of human history, she is the worlds greatest celebrity as she is the most recognizable face/person in the history of the world (ok, maybe not #1, but real close)...if Paul had fallen to me, I was considering moving Jesus to celebrity (among a few other categories) and I'm one of the biggest Bible Thumpers around here... I mean it as no disrespect at all... Its simply a statement of how recognizable of a figure that she is...
Osama Bin Laden's face is recognized all around the world as well. Does that make him a worthy celebrity pick?
yes... We hate him, but in the Muslim world (ie the Middle East) he seems to be quite famous and well regarded...
what does hate or being well regarded have to do with celebrity? Simply put, do we recognize the person? If Satan were able to be drafted (I really hope we aren't going down that road) IMO he'd be a fine celebrity if not classified as villain. Celebrity does not have to equal respected or liked.
Satan would have to be judged solely on his actions as Lucifer while he was alive, and I don't even know if he was a real person or started out as an angel. Nothing about him after his death (ie. anything that would make him draft worthy) would count. So unless he was a colossul ##### while alive, in which case he wouldn't have been an angel in the first place, he's completely useless as a pick.
 
11.02 St. Francis of Assisi, Humanitarian/Saint/MartyrFrancis of Assisi (Giovanni Francesco Bernardone; born 1181/1182 – October 3, 1226) was a friar and the founder of the Order of Friars Minor, more commonly known as the Franciscans.He is known as the patron saint of animals, the environment and Italy, and it is customary for Catholic churches to hold ceremonies honoring animals around his feast day of 4 October.in a pilgrimage to Rome where St. Francis begged at the church doors, he saw the Icon of Christ Crucified come alive and tell him "Francis, Francis, go and repair My house which, as you can see, is falling into ruins" three times. Francis initially took this to mean the church he was praying in and sold some of the clothes from his father's store he had with him and his horses in order to help the monks fix the church.His rich father was very angry at this and threatened him with threats and even corporal chastisement. However, Francis ended up denouncing his father and his family and upbringing and even the things his father gave him and lived as a beggar for two years in Assisi restoring churches.

At the end of this period (according to Jordanus, on 24 February 1209), Francis heard a sermon that changed his life. The sermon was about Matthew 10:9, in which Christ tells his followers that they should go forth and proclaim that the Kingdom of Heaven was upon them, that they should take no money with them, nor even a walking stick or shoes for the road. Francis was inspired to devote himself to a life of poverty.Clad in a rough garment, barefoot, and, after the Evangelical precept, without staff or scrip, he began to preach repentance. He was soon joined by his first follower, a prominent fellow townsman, the jurist xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, who contributed all that he had to the work. Within a year Francis had eleven followers. Francis chose never to be ordained a priest and the community lived as "lesser brothers," fratres minores in Latin.The brothers lived a simple life in the deserted lazar house of Rivo Torto near Assisi; but they spent much of their time wandering through the mountainous districts of Umbria, always cheerful and full of songs, yet making a deep impression on their hearers by their earnest exhortations.In 1209 Francis led his first eleven followers to Rome to seek permission from xxxxxxxxxx to found a new religious order. Upon entry to Rome, the brothers encountered Bishop Guido of Assisi, who had in his company Giovanni di San Paolo, the cardinal bishop of Sabina. The Cardinal, who was the confessor of xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, was immediately sympathetic to Francis and agreed to represent Francis to the pope. Reluctantly, Pope Innocent agreed to meet with Francis and the brothers the next day. After several days, the pope agreed to informally admit the group, adding that when God increased the group in grace and number, they could return for an official admittance. The group was tonsured and Francis was ordained as a deacon, allowing him to read Gospels in the church.
On Palm Sunday, 28 March 1211 Francis received xxxxxxx at the Porziuncola and hereby established the Order of Poor Dames, later called Poor Clares. In the same year, Francis left for Jerusalem, but he was shipwrecked by a storm on the Dalmatian coast, forcing him to return to Italy.On 8 May 1213 he received the mountain of La Verna (Alverna) as a gift from the count Orlando di Chiusi who described it as “eminently suitable for whoever wishes to do penance in a place remote from mankind.” The mountain would become one of his favorite retreats for prayer. In the same year, Francis sailed for Morocco, but this time an illness forced him to break off his journey in Spain. Back in Assisi, several noblemen (among them xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, who would later write the biography of St. Francis) and some well-educated men joined his order.In 1215 Francis went again to Rome for the Fourth Lateran Council. During this time, he probably met xxxxxxxxxxxxx.In 1216 Francis received from the new pope xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx the confirmation of the indulgence of the Porziuncola, now better known as the Pardon of Assisi, which the Pope decreed to be a complete remission of their sins for all those who prayed in the Porziuncola.
In 1219 Francis left, together with a few companions, on a pilgrimage of non-violence to Egypt. Crossing the lines between the sultan and the Crusaders in Damietta, he was received by the sultan xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. Francis challenged the Muslim scholars to a test of true religion by fire; but they retreated. When Francis proposed to enter the fire first, under the condition that if he left the fire unharmed, the sultan would have to recognize Christ as the true God, the sultan was so impressed that he allowed Francis to preach to his subjects. Though Francis did not succeed in converting the sultan, the last words of the sultan to Francis of Assisi were, according to xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, bishop of Acre, in his book "Historia occidentalis, De Ordine et praedicatione Fratrum Minorum (1221)" : “Pray for me that God may deign to reveal to me that law and faith which is most pleasing to him.”.
While he was praying on the mountain of Verna, during a forty day fast in preparation for Michaelmas (September 29), Francis is said to have had a vision on or about September 14, 1224, the Feast of the Exaltation of the Cross, as a result of which he received the stigmata. xxxxxxxxxxx, who had been with Francis at the time, left a clear and simple account of the event, the first definite account of the phenomenon of stigmata. "Suddenly he saw a vision of a seraph, a six-winged angel on a cross. This angel gave him the gift of the five wounds of Christ."Suffering from these Stigmata and from an eye disease, he received care in several cities (Siena, Cortona, Nocera) to no avail. In the end he was brought back to the Porziuncola. He was brought to the "transito," the hut for infirmed friars, next to the Porziuncola. Here, in the place where it all began, feeling the end approaching, he spent the last days of his life dictating his spiritual testament. He died on the evening of October 3, 1226 singing Psalm 141.On July 16, 1228 he was pronounced a saint by the next pope Gregory IX, the former cardinal xxxxxxxxxx, friend and protector of St Francis. The next day, the pope laid the foundation stone for the Basilica of Saint Francis in Assisi.He was buried on May 25, 1230 under the Lower Basilica. His burial place remained inaccessible until it was rediscovered in 1818. xxxxxxxxxxxxx then constructed for his remains a crypt in neo-classical style under the Lower Basilica. It was refashioned between 1927 and 1930 into its present form by Ugo Tarchi, stripping the wall of its marble decorations. In 1978 the remains of St. Francis were identified by a commission of scholars, appointed by xxxxxxxxxx and put in a glass urn in the ancient stone tomb.
Many of the stories that surround the life of St. Francis deal with his love for animals. Perhaps the most famous incident that illustrates the Saint's humility towards nature is recounted in the "Fioretti" ("Little Flowers"), a collection of legends and folklore that sprang up after the Saint's death. It is said that, one day, while Francis was traveling with some companions, they happened upon a place in the road where birds filled the trees on either side. Francis told his companions to "wait for me while I go to preach to my sisters the birds". The birds surrounded him, drawn by the power of his voice, and not one of them flew away. Francis spoke to them: My sister birds, you owe much to God, and you must always and in everyplace give praise to Him; for He has given you freedom to wing through the sky and He has clothed you... you neither sow nor reap, and God feeds you and gives you rivers and fountains for your thirst, and mountains and valleys for shelter, and tall trees for your nests. And although you neither know how to spin or weave, God dresses you and your children, for the Creator loves you greatly and He blesses you abundantly. Therefore... always seek to praise God.Main article: Wolf of GubbioAnother legend from the Fioretti tells that in the city of Gubbio, where Francis lived for some time, was a wolf "terrifying and ferocious, who devoured men as well as animals". Francis had compassion upon the townsfolk, and went up into the hills to find the wolf. Soon, fear of the animal had caused all his companions to flee, though the saint pressed on. When he found the wolf, he made the sign of the cross and commanded the wolf to come to him and hurt no one. Miraculously the wolf closed his jaws and lay down at the feet of St. Francis. "Brother Wolf, you do much harm in these parts and you have done great evil...", said Francis. "All these people accuse you and curse you... But brother wolf, I would like to make peace between you and the people". Then Francis led the wolf into the town, and surrounded by startled citizens made a pact between them and the wolf. Because the wolf had “done evil out of hunger”, the townsfolk were to feed the wolf regularly, and in return, the wolf would no longer prey upon them or their flocks. In this manner Gubbio was freed from the menace of the predator. Francis, ever the lover of animals, even made a pact on behalf of the town dogs, that they would not bother the wolf again. It is also said that Francis, to show the townspeople that they would not be harmed baptised the wolf.These legends exemplify the Franciscan mode of charity and poverty as well as the saint's love of the natural world. Part of his appreciation of the environment is expressed in his Canticle of the Sun, a poem written in Umbrian Italian in perhaps 1224 which expresses a love and appreciation of Brother Sun, Sister Moon, Mother Earth, Brother Fire, etc. and all of God's creations personified in their fundamental forms. In "Canticle of the Creatures," he wrote: "All praise to you, Oh Lord, for all these brother and sister creatures."Francis's attitude towards the natural world, while poetically expressed, was conventionally Christian. He believed that the world was created good and beautiful by God but suffers a need for redemption because of the primordial sin of man. He preached to man and beast the universal ability and duty of all creatures to praise God (a common theme in the Psalms) and the duty of men to protect and enjoy nature as both the stewards of God's creation and as creatures ourselves.Legend has it that St. Francis on his deathbed thanked his donkey for carrying and helping him throughout his life, and his donkey wept.
to sum up:- He was born to a well-off family and instead of using that money to live a life of riches and excess, he instead lived a life of poverty and preaching the gospel and doing good things.- The founder of the order of Franciscan monks.- Known for his charity and willingness to live a life of poverty in what is now known as the Franciscan way.- Crossed the battle lines of the Crusades and spoke with the Sultan of Egypt.- Challenged Muslim scholars in Egypt to a "test of true religion" where Francis would walk into a fire and if he walked out, they would admit that Christ is the true God. The scholars refused but the Sultan was so impressed that he allowed Francis to preach to the people in his country.- He is believed to have received the Stigmata late in his life as witnesses saw the five wounds of Christ's death on the cross on his body.- Was made a Saint shortly after his death.- He is the patron Saint of the environment and animals, believing that we very much should respect the environment and help maintain it.- Considered to be the first Italian poet by many literary critics.- His writings (and poetry) not only has immense spiritual value, but much literary value as well.- Believed that the people should be able to pray to God in their own language instead of in Latin.- Also has attributed to him my favorite quote ever: "Preach the Gospel at all times and, if necessary, use words."Awesome guy, very worthy of being here and gets bonus points for his poetry and other writings, his environmentalism, and non-violent response to the Crusades and his journeys past the battle lines of the Crusades. I'd been thinking of him for a while now, and I'm actually kind of angry with myself that I didn't pick him earlier after reading everything he did in his life, because he did so much more than I even thought he did... He deserved to be drafted much much higher than this.
 
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my team:

Scientist: Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi - creator of Algebra, innovator of the decimal point and decimal system

Inventor: Isembard Kingdom Brunel - famed architect known for his creative solutions to difficult, previously un-solvable problems; designer of first underground tunnel beneath a navigable river; inventor of the "bar"

Discoverer/Explorer: Yuri Gagarin - first man in space; first man to orbit the planet earth from space

Humanitarian/Saint/Martyr: St. Francis of Assisi - founder of the Franciscan order; crossed battlelines to communicate with "enemy" during the Crusades; Patron Saint of the environment and animals; considered the first Italian poet

Playwrights/Poets: Homer - author of the Iliad and Odyssey

Composer: Johann Sebastian Bach

Painter: Raphael

Artist (non-painter): Gian Lorenzo Bernini

Religious Figure: Jesus of Nazareth - considered the Son of God and Messiah by Christians and also to have died a martyr's death on the cross to save humanity from its sin; preacher/philosopher in the first century in and around what we now call Israel;

Celebrity: The Virgin Mary - Mother of Jesus, one of the most known people to ever live

Philosopher: King Solomon - author of the books of Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Songs in the Bible/Torah; considered by Christians/Jews/Muslims (I think Muslims) to be the wisest man ever to live

11 categories, I see at least 6 of them that should get strong consideration for the #1 spot in their categories and most of the others are very capable of being top 5 and I would be very surprised if any of them fell past #10...

:thumbup:

 
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11.02 St. Francis of Assisi, Humanitarian/Saint/Martyr

Francis of Assisi (Giovanni Francesco Bernardone; born 1181/1182 – October 3, 1226) was a friar and the founder of the Order of Friars Minor, more commonly known as the Franciscans.

He is known as the patron saint of animals, the environment and Italy, and it is customary for Catholic churches to hold ceremonies honoring animals around his feast day of 4 October.

in a pilgrimage to Rome where St. Francis begged at the church doors, he saw the Icon of Christ Crucified come alive and tell him "Francis, Francis, go and repair My house which, as you can see, is falling into ruins" three times. Francis initially took this to mean the church he was praying in and sold some of the clothes from his father's store he had with him and his horses in order to help the monks fix the church.

His rich father was very angry at this and threatened him with threats and even corporal chastisement. However, Francis ended up denouncing his father and his family and upbringing and even the things his father gave him and lived as a beggar for two years in Assisi restoring churches.

At the end of this period (according to Jordanus, on 24 February 1209), Francis heard a sermon that changed his life. The sermon was about Matthew 10:9, in which Christ tells his followers that they should go forth and proclaim that the Kingdom of Heaven was upon them, that they should take no money with them, nor even a walking stick or shoes for the road. Francis was inspired to devote himself to a life of poverty.

Clad in a rough garment, barefoot, and, after the Evangelical precept, without staff or scrip, he began to preach repentance. He was soon joined by his first follower, a prominent fellow townsman, the jurist xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, who contributed all that he had to the work. Within a year Francis had eleven followers. Francis chose never to be ordained a priest and the community lived as "lesser brothers," fratres minores in Latin.

The brothers lived a simple life in the deserted lazar house of Rivo Torto near Assisi; but they spent much of their time wandering through the mountainous districts of Umbria, always cheerful and full of songs, yet making a deep impression on their hearers by their earnest exhortations.

In 1209 Francis led his first eleven followers to Rome to seek permission from xxxxxxxxxx to found a new religious order. Upon entry to Rome, the brothers encountered Bishop Guido of Assisi, who had in his company Giovanni di San Paolo, the cardinal bishop of Sabina. The Cardinal, who was the confessor of xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, was immediately sympathetic to Francis and agreed to represent Francis to the pope. Reluctantly, Pope Innocent agreed to meet with Francis and the brothers the next day. After several days, the pope agreed to informally admit the group, adding that when God increased the group in grace and number, they could return for an official admittance. The group was tonsured and Francis was ordained as a deacon, allowing him to read Gospels in the church.
On Palm Sunday, 28 March 1211 Francis received xxxxxxx at the Porziuncola and hereby established the Order of Poor Dames, later called Poor Clares. In the same year, Francis left for Jerusalem, but he was shipwrecked by a storm on the Dalmatian coast, forcing him to return to Italy.

On 8 May 1213 he received the mountain of La Verna (Alverna) as a gift from the count Orlando di Chiusi who described it as “eminently suitable for whoever wishes to do penance in a place remote from mankind.” The mountain would become one of his favorite retreats for prayer. In the same year, Francis sailed for Morocco, but this time an illness forced him to break off his journey in Spain. Back in Assisi, several noblemen (among them xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, who would later write the biography of St. Francis) and some well-educated men joined his order.

In 1215 Francis went again to Rome for the Fourth Lateran Council. During this time, he probably met xxxxxxxxxxxxx.

In 1216 Francis received from the new pope xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx the confirmation of the indulgence of the Porziuncola, now better known as the Pardon of Assisi, which the Pope decreed to be a complete remission of their sins for all those who prayed in the Porziuncola.
In 1219 Francis left, together with a few companions, on a pilgrimage of non-violence to Egypt. Crossing the lines between the sultan and the Crusaders in Damietta, he was received by the sultan xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. Francis challenged the Muslim scholars to a test of true religion by fire; but they retreated. When Francis proposed to enter the fire first, under the condition that if he left the fire unharmed, the sultan would have to recognize Christ as the true God, the sultan was so impressed that he allowed Francis to preach to his subjects. Though Francis did not succeed in converting the sultan, the last words of the sultan to Francis of Assisi were, according to xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, bishop of Acre, in his book "Historia occidentalis, De Ordine et praedicatione Fratrum Minorum (1221)" : “Pray for me that God may deign to reveal to me that law and faith which is most pleasing to him.”.
Many of the stories that surround the life of St. Francis deal with his love for animals. Perhaps the most famous incident that illustrates the Saint's humility towards nature is recounted in the "Fioretti" ("Little Flowers"), a collection of legends and folklore that sprang up after the Saint's death. It is said that, one day, while Francis was traveling with some companions, they happened upon a place in the road where birds filled the trees on either side. Francis told his companions to "wait for me while I go to preach to my sisters the birds". The birds surrounded him, drawn by the power of his voice, and not one of them flew away. Francis spoke to them:

My sister birds, you owe much to God, and you must always and in everyplace give praise to Him; for He has given you freedom to wing through the sky and He has clothed you... you neither sow nor reap, and God feeds you and gives you rivers and fountains for your thirst, and mountains and valleys for shelter, and tall trees for your nests. And although you neither know how to spin or weave, God dresses you and your children, for the Creator loves you greatly and He blesses you abundantly. Therefore... always seek to praise God.

Main article: Wolf of Gubbio

Another legend from the Fioretti tells that in the city of Gubbio, where Francis lived for some time, was a wolf "terrifying and ferocious, who devoured men as well as animals". Francis had compassion upon the townsfolk, and went up into the hills to find the wolf. Soon, fear of the animal had caused all his companions to flee, though the saint pressed on. When he found the wolf, he made the sign of the cross and commanded the wolf to come to him and hurt no one. Miraculously the wolf closed his jaws and lay down at the feet of St. Francis. "Brother Wolf, you do much harm in these parts and you have done great evil...", said Francis. "All these people accuse you and curse you... But brother wolf, I would like to make peace between you and the people". Then Francis led the wolf into the town, and surrounded by startled citizens made a pact between them and the wolf. Because the wolf had “done evil out of hunger”, the townsfolk were to feed the wolf regularly, and in return, the wolf would no longer prey upon them or their flocks. In this manner Gubbio was freed from the menace of the predator. Francis, ever the lover of animals, even made a pact on behalf of the town dogs, that they would not bother the wolf again. It is also said that Francis, to show the townspeople that they would not be harmed baptised the wolf.

These legends exemplify the Franciscan mode of charity and poverty as well as the saint's love of the natural world. Part of his appreciation of the environment is expressed in his Canticle of the Sun, a poem written in Umbrian Italian in perhaps 1224 which expresses a love and appreciation of Brother Sun, Sister Moon, Mother Earth, Brother Fire, etc. and all of God's creations personified in their fundamental forms. In "Canticle of the Creatures," he wrote: "All praise to you, Oh Lord, for all these brother and sister creatures."

Francis's attitude towards the natural world, while poetically expressed, was conventionally Christian. He believed that the world was created good and beautiful by God but suffers a need for redemption because of the primordial sin of man. He preached to man and beast the universal ability and duty of all creatures to praise God (a common theme in the Psalms) and the duty of men to protect and enjoy nature as both the stewards of God's creation and as creatures ourselves.

Legend has it that St. Francis on his deathbed thanked his donkey for carrying and helping him throughout his life, and his donkey wept.
to sum up:- He was born to a well-off family and instead of using that money to live a life of riches and excess, he instead lived a life of poverty and preaching the gospel and doing good things.

- The founder of the order of Franciscan monks.

- Known for his charity and willingness to live a life of poverty in what is now known as the Franciscan way.

- Crossed the battle lines of the Crusades and spoke with the Sultan of Egypt.

- Challenged Muslim scholars in Egypt to a "test of true religion" where Francis would walk into a fire and if he walked out, they would admit that Christ is the true God. The scholars refused but the Sultan was so impressed that he allowed Francis to preach to the people in his country.

- He received the Stigmata late in his life.

- Was made a Saint shortly after his death.

- He is the patron Saint of the environment and animals, believing that we very much should respect the environment and help maintain it.

- Considered to be the first Italian poet by many literary critics.

- His writings (and poetry) not only has immense spiritual value, but much literary value as well.

- Believed that the people should be able to pray to God in their own language instead of in Latin.

- Also has attributed to him my favorite quote ever: "Preach the Gospel at all times and, if necessary, use words."

Awesome guy, very worthy of being here and gets bonus points for his poetry and other writings, his environmentalism, and non-violent response to the Crusades and his journeys past the battle lines of the Crusades. I'd been thinking of him for a while now, and I'm actually kind of angry with myself that I didn't pick him earlier after reading everything he did in his life, because he did so much more than I even thought he did... He deserved to be drafted much much higher than this.
Sorry, no mystical occurrences count for the draft.I see one #1 on your team (really love to know what other 5 you think have a shot at #1) and at least one who might not even have lived. I see several people that could easily fall out of the top ten.

I don't think Mary is a very good celebrity because she wasn't "recognizable" when she was alive and none of the pictures, tortillas, statues etc actually look like her. She was a poor carpenter's wife her entire life. I don't think post mortem fame counts as celebrity. Just my opinion, but there was absolutely zero celebrity activity in her life. IMO, it's a hard one to judge but just because her name is known doesn't make her a celebrity. If it did then we could count just about anyone drafted as a celebrity. I think a celebrity needs to be a celebrity in their life, not just an historic name.

 
Sorry, no mystical occurrences count for the draft.I see one #1 on your team (really love to know what other 5 you think have a shot at #1) and at least one who might not even have lived. I see several people that could easily fall out of the top ten.I don't think Mary is a very good celebrity because she wasn't "recognizable" when she was alive and none of the pictures, tortillas, statues etc actually look like her. She was a poor carpenter's wife her entire life. I don't think post mortem fame counts as celebrity. Just my opinion, but there was absolutely zero celebrity activity in her life. IMO, it's a hard one to judge but just because her name is known doesn't make her a celebrity. If it did then we could count just about anyone drafted as a celebrity. I think a celebrity needs to be a celebrity in their life, not just an historic name.
why he had the wounds is irrelevant, he is still considered to have had them (and multiple people were a witness to them)... What caused them and why are debateable, but they were real...as far as possible #1s on my team:St. Francis of AssisiHomerJohann Sebastian BachJesus of Nazareththe Virgin Marynot sure what I thought the other one was (probably Brunel)...as far as falling out of the top 10, which ones exactly do you think are gonna fall out of the top ten? Because I don't see it...as far as your thought on Mary, you should re-read the category description, it is all about being known by a lot of people... And, yes, by the definition given at the beginning of the draft everyone in this draft (if not simply by being in this draft) qualifies for the celebrity category...
 
Sorry, no mystical occurrences count for the draft.I see one #1 on your team (really love to know what other 5 you think have a shot at #1) and at least one who might not even have lived. I see several people that could easily fall out of the top ten.I don't think Mary is a very good celebrity because she wasn't "recognizable" when she was alive and none of the pictures, tortillas, statues etc actually look like her. She was a poor carpenter's wife her entire life. I don't think post mortem fame counts as celebrity. Just my opinion, but there was absolutely zero celebrity activity in her life. IMO, it's a hard one to judge but just because her name is known doesn't make her a celebrity. If it did then we could count just about anyone drafted as a celebrity. I think a celebrity needs to be a celebrity in their life, not just an historic name.
why he had the wounds is irrelevant, he is still considered to have had them (and multiple people were a witness to them)... What caused them and why are debateable, but they were real...as far as possible #1s on my team:St. Francis of AssisiHomerJohann Sebastian BachJesus of Nazareththe Virgin Marynot sure what I thought the other one was (probably Brunel)...as far as falling out of the top 10, which ones exactly do you think are gonna fall out of the top ten? Because I don't see it...as far as your thought on Mary, you should re-read the category description, it is all about being known by a lot of people... And, yes, by the definition given at the beginning of the draft everyone in this draft (if not simply by being in this draft) qualifies for the celebrity category...
The category says people who are recognized wherever they go. Was she recognizable when she was alive? She can't go anywhere now obviously, and no one would recognizer her anyway by the Anglicized depictions of her. I'm re thinking it a bit because the same applies to Tut, but as far as the category description she doesn't fit it well.Bach and Homer have zero chance over Mozart/Beethoven and ShakespeareJesus should be #1Mary, obviously I think she's a poor fit for the category and would be better as a wildcard. And as far as this draft is concerned, she was not a virgin, divine acts are excluded. Mother of Jesus, fine but not a Virgin Mary for the same reason you are not listing Jesus as the son of God. You can say that people BELIEVE she was a virgin, but the only proof of that is a very scientifically and factually incorrect and biased book. The same goes for Assisi, you can say people believed he had it but the only proof is the same inaccurate book. NO DIVINE ACTS, PERIOD. Whether done by them or to them. DIVINE ACTS ARE DISALLOWED FOR THIS DRAFT, so unless you can come up with some solid proof that he had them (which you can't) then the stigmata is not under his list of accomplishments. I also don't believe he'll rank in the top spots either.al-Khwarizmi, Gagarin, Bernini, Brunel (couldn't have done anything without Watts steam engnine inventions)and Raphael I could see dropping out of the top 10, though not far. Not saying they will, but I am not sure how they stack up with some of the others in their categories, especially not to be "surprised" if they fall. In case it needs to be repeated, NO DIVINE ACTS. No stigmata, no virgin birth, no resurrection, none if it counts. If you choose to believe it, that's your deal but anything divine does not have a place in this draft.
 
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Sorry, no mystical occurrences count for the draft.I see one #1 on your team (really love to know what other 5 you think have a shot at #1) and at least one who might not even have lived. I see several people that could easily fall out of the top ten.I don't think Mary is a very good celebrity because she wasn't "recognizable" when she was alive and none of the pictures, tortillas, statues etc actually look like her. She was a poor carpenter's wife her entire life. I don't think post mortem fame counts as celebrity. Just my opinion, but there was absolutely zero celebrity activity in her life. IMO, it's a hard one to judge but just because her name is known doesn't make her a celebrity. If it did then we could count just about anyone drafted as a celebrity. I think a celebrity needs to be a celebrity in their life, not just an historic name.
why he had the wounds is irrelevant, he is still considered to have had them (and multiple people were a witness to them)... What caused them and why are debateable, but they were real...as far as possible #1s on my team:St. Francis of AssisiHomerJohann Sebastian BachJesus of Nazareththe Virgin Marynot sure what I thought the other one was (probably Brunel)...as far as falling out of the top 10, which ones exactly do you think are gonna fall out of the top ten? Because I don't see it...as far as your thought on Mary, you should re-read the category description, it is all about being known by a lot of people... And, yes, by the definition given at the beginning of the draft everyone in this draft (if not simply by being in this draft) qualifies for the celebrity category...
The category says people who are recognized wherever they go. Was she recognizable when she was alive? She can't go anywhere now obviously, and no one would recognizer her anyway by the Anglicized depictions of her. I'm re thinking it a bit because the same applies to Tut, but as far as the category description she doesn't fit it well.Bach and Homer have zero chance over Mozart/Beethoven and ShakespeareJesus should be #1Mary, obviously I think she's a poor fit for the category and would be better as a wildcard. And as far as this draft is concerned, she was not a virgin, divine acts are excluded. Mother of Jesus, fine but not a Virgin Mary for the same reason you are not listing Jesus as the son of God. You can say that people BELIEVE she was a virgin, but the only proof of that is a very scientifically and factually incorrect and biased book. The same goes for Assisi, you can say people believed he had it but the only proof is the same inaccurate book. NO DIVINE ACTS, PERIOD. Whether done by them or to them. DIVINE ACTS ARE DISALLOWED FOR THIS DRAFT, so unless you can come up with some solid proof that he had them (which you can't) then the stigmata is not under his list of accomplishments. I also don't believe he'll rank in the top spots either.al-Khwarizmi, Gagarin, Bernin and Raphael I could see dropping out of the top 10, though not far. Not saying they will, but I am not sure how they stack up with some of the others in their categories, especially not to be "surprised" if they fall. In case it needs to be repeated, NO DIVINE ACTS. No stigmata, no virgin birth, no resurrection, none if it counts. If you choose to believe it, that's your deal but anything divine does not have a place in this draft.
let's go piece by piece...I agree on Bach and Homer, that's why I said they have an argument.... They won't, but they have an argument...as far as Mary goes, I agree if she actually walked around, but it isn't just literally her, its her image that is recognized worldwide. If you see a painting of a woman and a baby, its Mary and Jesus. It just is. That's how it works. Could you be wrong in that assumption occasionally? Sure, I guess... But you'll be right almost every time...as far as the Virgin thing, I only am calling her the "Virgin Mary" because "Mary" is much too vague and "Mary, the Mother of Jesus" is too long and kinda clunky... Plus since over a billion people currently actually refer to her as "the Virgin Mary", I figured it was appropriate... Remember, I'm not Catholic, I don't believe she was always a virgin...as far as divine acts, you are greatly exaggerating. I can't say Jesus is #1 because He is God... But I can say He should be #1 because over 2 billion people alive currently and who knows how many ever to live believe He is God... Same with Mary, same with St. Francis...As far as the Stigmata claim with Francis goes. I have no clue what book you are referring to (as neither Francis nor Stigmata are mentioned in the Scriptures), please clue me in though. All I was saying by it is claimed that he had Stigmata and that is enough for many people to believe that he did... And since he's in a semi-religious category (saints/martyrs), I figured it should be noted. I realize that its arguable why the wounds are there, but I figured that since history books state that others saw that wounds and verified that they were there that I wouldn't get an argument that the wounds were completely faked... silly me, I forgot the zealousness of some who deny all things of faith... Seriously, you are letting your bias against faith/religion/Christianity get the best of you here...as for the rest... I don't see how Brunel can be out of the top 10... He did an unbelievable amount of things and I'd be very surprised if he dropped that far (again, you should read what he actually did)...Al-Khwarizmi should be top 10...and Gagarin should be #1... No one discovered/explored something as monumental as what he did...
 
I mean, seriously, Sweeney...

you realize that I don't believe that Mary was a virgin her whole life... I don't believe in the assumption of Mary... I don't pray the rosary...

I don't believe in "sainthood" as the Catholic church believes it...

I don't, as of now, believe in the validity of Stigmata, although I won't deny that its possible...

and my personal beliefs are VERY far from Roman Catholicism...

right?

So all your ranting and raving about me not bringing my religion into this is nonsense because I'M NOT!

I have, however, picked people who are important to human history for RELIGIOUS REASONS and that means that those RELIGIOUS REASONS must be stated... And, honestly, I don't really care if you don't like it...

 
Sorry, no mystical occurrences count for the draft.

I see one #1 on your team (really love to know what other 5 you think have a shot at #1) and at least one who might not even have lived. I see several people that could easily fall out of the top ten.

I don't think Mary is a very good celebrity because she wasn't "recognizable" when she was alive and none of the pictures, tortillas, statues etc actually look like her. She was a poor carpenter's wife her entire life. I don't think post mortem fame counts as celebrity. Just my opinion, but there was absolutely zero celebrity activity in her life. IMO, it's a hard one to judge but just because her name is known doesn't make her a celebrity. If it did then we could count just about anyone drafted as a celebrity. I think a celebrity needs to be a celebrity in their life, not just an historic name.
why he had the wounds is irrelevant, he is still considered to have had them (and multiple people were a witness to them)... What caused them and why are debateable, but they were real...as far as possible #1s on my team:

St. Francis of Assisi

Homer

Johann Sebastian Bach

Jesus of Nazareth

the Virgin Mary

not sure what I thought the other one was (probably Brunel)...

as far as falling out of the top 10, which ones exactly do you think are gonna fall out of the top ten? Because I don't see it...

as far as your thought on Mary, you should re-read the category description, it is all about being known by a lot of people... And, yes, by the definition given at the beginning of the draft everyone in this draft (if not simply by being in this draft) qualifies for the celebrity category...
The category says people who are recognized wherever they go. Was she recognizable when she was alive? She can't go anywhere now obviously, and no one would recognizer her anyway by the Anglicized depictions of her. I'm re thinking it a bit because the same applies to Tut, but as far as the category description she doesn't fit it well.Bach and Homer have zero chance over Mozart/Beethoven and Shakespeare

Jesus should be #1

Mary, obviously I think she's a poor fit for the category and would be better as a wildcard. And as far as this draft is concerned, she was not a virgin, divine acts are excluded. Mother of Jesus, fine but not a Virgin Mary for the same reason you are not listing Jesus as the son of God. You can say that people BELIEVE she was a virgin, but the only proof of that is a very scientifically and factually incorrect and biased book.

The same goes for Assisi, you can say people believed he had it but the only proof is the same inaccurate book. NO DIVINE ACTS, PERIOD. Whether done by them or to them. DIVINE ACTS ARE DISALLOWED FOR THIS DRAFT, so unless you can come up with some solid proof that he had them (which you can't) then the stigmata is not under his list of accomplishments. I also don't believe he'll rank in the top spots either.

al-Khwarizmi, Gagarin, Bernin and Raphael I could see dropping out of the top 10, though not far. Not saying they will, but I am not sure how they stack up with some of the others in their categories, especially not to be "surprised" if they fall.

In case it needs to be repeated, NO DIVINE ACTS. No stigmata, no virgin birth, no resurrection, none if it counts. If you choose to believe it, that's your deal but anything divine does not have a place in this draft.
let's go piece by piece...I agree on Bach and Homer, that's why I said they have an argument.... They won't, but they have an argument...

as far as Mary goes, I agree if she actually walked around, but it isn't just literally her, its her image that is recognized worldwide. If you see a painting of a woman and a baby, its Mary and Jesus. It just is. That's how it works. Could you be wrong in that assumption occasionally? Sure, I guess... But you'll be right almost every time...

as far as the Virgin thing, I only am calling her the "Virgin Mary" because "Mary" is much too vague and "Mary, the Mother of Jesus" is too long and kinda clunky... Plus since over a billion people currently actually refer to her as "the Virgin Mary", I figured it was appropriate... Remember, I'm not Catholic, I don't believe she was always a virgin...

as far as divine acts, you are greatly exaggerating. I can't say Jesus is #1 because He is God... But I can say He should be #1 because over 2 billion people alive currently and who knows how many ever to live believe He is God... Same with Mary, same with St. Francis...

As far as the Stigmata claim with Francis goes. I have no clue what book you are referring to (as neither Francis nor Stigmata are mentioned in the Scriptures), please clue me in though. All I was saying by it is claimed that he had Stigmata and that is enough for many people to believe that he did... And since he's in a semi-religious category (saints/martyrs), I figured it should be noted. I realize that its arguable why the wounds are there, but I figured that since history books state that others saw that wounds and verified that they were there that I wouldn't get an argument that the wounds were completely faked... silly me, I forgot the zealousness of some who deny all things of faith... Seriously, you are letting your bias against faith/religion/Christianity get the best of you here...

as for the rest... I don't see how Brunel can be out of the top 10... He did an unbelievable amount of things and I'd be very surprised if he dropped that far (again, you should read what he actually did)...

Al-Khwarizmi should be top 10...

and Gagarin should be #1... No one discovered/explored something as monumental as what he did...
My mistake on Assisi's origins, got too caught up in Mary. But I stand by my statement that there is no place for mysticism in this draft. Like I said, you can say people believe he recieved the stigmata, but you cannot say he received it. Only that people believe he did. And once again you are losing the context of my statements despite the fact that I repeatedly said "in terms of this draft". I am not letting my lack of belief in miracles and divinity get the best of me, I am ensuring that draftees are not misrepresented with claims of divine acts, which FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS DRAFT are not allowed to be judged as attributes. You believe, I don't. You shouldn't get to have attributes for your picks because you choose to have faith. Now let's look at what you wrote about Assisi, you said there were witnesses so you figured you wouldn't get an argument that they were faked, then you say zealots like me deny all things faith. So which were they? Because if you think they are faith related, they don't count. And if you don't think they were faith related, then they didn't happen. Stigmata doesn't happen in terms of this draft. You still have trouble separating faith from reality.As for Brunel, almost everything he did, he did only because of the work of the #1 inventor based on body of work and Father of the Industrial Revolution, James Watt. What powered his drills? What powered his ships? What got his building equipment to his work sites? I think that there are too many inventors that are going to get credit for just one invention (which should be #1 and #2 greatest inventions, but not inventors as body of work) as well as several others with a host of inventions all made possible by the steam engine (Edison, Tesla etc). Brunel could slip into the top 10, but I think it likely he's close either way.

Al-K, might but I don't think it's such a lock that you shouldn't be surprised, like Brunel.

I still oppose listing her as the Virgin Mary as it implies divine attributes that FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS DRAFT are not accurate. Mary Mother of Jesus or OG Madonna are acceptable.

 
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I mean, seriously, Sweeney...

you realize that I don't believe that Mary was a virgin her whole life... I don't believe in the assumption of Mary... I don't pray the rosary...

I don't believe in "sainthood" as the Catholic church believes it...

I don't, as of now, believe in the validity of Stigmata, although I won't deny that its possible...

and my personal beliefs are VERY far from Roman Catholicism...

right?

So all your ranting and raving about me not bringing my religion into this is nonsense because I'M NOT!

I have, however, picked people who are important to human history for RELIGIOUS REASONS and that means that those RELIGIOUS REASONS must be stated... And, honestly, I don't really care if you don't like it...
Just don't state them as fact, state them as belief. Make sure you say people believed he got stigmata, especially since you yourself don't believe that it happened. If Mary's not a virgin, don't call her the Virgin Mary, though by your statement it seems you believe that she was for Jesus' birth, although I could be reading that wrong. I am not arguing about you bringing religion into it, it's a necessary thing. I am arguing that you are attributing divine acts to some of your picks, and for the purposes of this draft, they are not allowed. Although, btw, claiming that someone received the stigmata is in fact bringing religion into it so, yes you are.

 
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Sorry, no mystical occurrences count for the draft.

I see one #1 on your team (really love to know what other 5 you think have a shot at #1) and at least one who might not even have lived. I see several people that could easily fall out of the top ten.

I don't think Mary is a very good celebrity because she wasn't "recognizable" when she was alive and none of the pictures, tortillas, statues etc actually look like her. She was a poor carpenter's wife her entire life. I don't think post mortem fame counts as celebrity. Just my opinion, but there was absolutely zero celebrity activity in her life. IMO, it's a hard one to judge but just because her name is known doesn't make her a celebrity. If it did then we could count just about anyone drafted as a celebrity. I think a celebrity needs to be a celebrity in their life, not just an historic name.
why he had the wounds is irrelevant, he is still considered to have had them (and multiple people were a witness to them)... What caused them and why are debateable, but they were real...as far as possible #1s on my team:

St. Francis of Assisi

Homer

Johann Sebastian Bach

Jesus of Nazareth

the Virgin Mary

not sure what I thought the other one was (probably Brunel)...

as far as falling out of the top 10, which ones exactly do you think are gonna fall out of the top ten? Because I don't see it...

as far as your thought on Mary, you should re-read the category description, it is all about being known by a lot of people... And, yes, by the definition given at the beginning of the draft everyone in this draft (if not simply by being in this draft) qualifies for the celebrity category...
The category says people who are recognized wherever they go. Was she recognizable when she was alive? She can't go anywhere now obviously, and no one would recognizer her anyway by the Anglicized depictions of her. I'm re thinking it a bit because the same applies to Tut, but as far as the category description she doesn't fit it well.Bach and Homer have zero chance over Mozart/Beethoven and Shakespeare

Jesus should be #1

Mary, obviously I think she's a poor fit for the category and would be better as a wildcard. And as far as this draft is concerned, she was not a virgin, divine acts are excluded. Mother of Jesus, fine but not a Virgin Mary for the same reason you are not listing Jesus as the son of God. You can say that people BELIEVE she was a virgin, but the only proof of that is a very scientifically and factually incorrect and biased book.

The same goes for Assisi, you can say people believed he had it but the only proof is the same inaccurate book. NO DIVINE ACTS, PERIOD. Whether done by them or to them. DIVINE ACTS ARE DISALLOWED FOR THIS DRAFT, so unless you can come up with some solid proof that he had them (which you can't) then the stigmata is not under his list of accomplishments. I also don't believe he'll rank in the top spots either.

al-Khwarizmi, Gagarin, Bernin and Raphael I could see dropping out of the top 10, though not far. Not saying they will, but I am not sure how they stack up with some of the others in their categories, especially not to be "surprised" if they fall.

In case it needs to be repeated, NO DIVINE ACTS. No stigmata, no virgin birth, no resurrection, none if it counts. If you choose to believe it, that's your deal but anything divine does not have a place in this draft.
let's go piece by piece...I agree on Bach and Homer, that's why I said they have an argument.... They won't, but they have an argument...

as far as Mary goes, I agree if she actually walked around, but it isn't just literally her, its her image that is recognized worldwide. If you see a painting of a woman and a baby, its Mary and Jesus. It just is. That's how it works. Could you be wrong in that assumption occasionally? Sure, I guess... But you'll be right almost every time...

as far as the Virgin thing, I only am calling her the "Virgin Mary" because "Mary" is much too vague and "Mary, the Mother of Jesus" is too long and kinda clunky... Plus since over a billion people currently actually refer to her as "the Virgin Mary", I figured it was appropriate... Remember, I'm not Catholic, I don't believe she was always a virgin...

as far as divine acts, you are greatly exaggerating. I can't say Jesus is #1 because He is God... But I can say He should be #1 because over 2 billion people alive currently and who knows how many ever to live believe He is God... Same with Mary, same with St. Francis...

As far as the Stigmata claim with Francis goes. I have no clue what book you are referring to (as neither Francis nor Stigmata are mentioned in the Scriptures), please clue me in though. All I was saying by it is claimed that he had Stigmata and that is enough for many people to believe that he did... And since he's in a semi-religious category (saints/martyrs), I figured it should be noted. I realize that its arguable why the wounds are there, but I figured that since history books state that others saw that wounds and verified that they were there that I wouldn't get an argument that the wounds were completely faked... silly me, I forgot the zealousness of some who deny all things of faith... Seriously, you are letting your bias against faith/religion/Christianity get the best of you here...

as for the rest... I don't see how Brunel can be out of the top 10... He did an unbelievable amount of things and I'd be very surprised if he dropped that far (again, you should read what he actually did)...

Al-Khwarizmi should be top 10...

and Gagarin should be #1... No one discovered/explored something as monumental as what he did...
My mistake on Assisi's origins, got too caught up in Mary. But I stand by my statement that there is no place for mysticism in this draft. Like I said, you can say people believe he recieved the stigmata, but you cannot say he received it. Only that people believe he did. And once again you are losing the context of my statements despite the fact that I repeatedly said "in terms of this draft". I am not letting my lack of belief in miracles and divinity get the best of me, I am ensuring that draftees are not misrepresented with claims of divine acts, which FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS DRAFT are not allowed to be judged as attributes. You believe, I don't. You shouldn't get to have attributes for your picks because you choose to have faith. Now let's look at what you wrote about Assisi, you said there were witnesses so you figured you wouldn't get an argument that they were faked, then you say zealots like me deny all things faith. So which were they? Because if you think they are faith related, they don't count. And if you don't think they were faith related, then they didn't happen. Stigmata doesn't happen in terms of this draft. You still have trouble separating faith from reality.As for Brunel, almost everything he did, he did only because of the work of the #1 inventor based on body of work and Father of the Industrial Revolution, James Watt. What powered his drills? What powered his ships? What got his building equipment to his work sites? I think that there are too many inventors that are going to get credit for just one invention (which should be #1 and #2 greatest inventions, but not inventors as body of work) as well as several others with a host of inventions all made possible by the steam engine (Edison, Tesla etc). Brunel could slip into the top 10, but I think it likely he's close either way.

Al-K, might but I don't think it's such a lock that you shouldn't be surprised.

I still oppose listing her as the Virgin Mary as it implies divine attributes that FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS DRAFT are not accurate. Mary Mother of Jesus or OG Madonna are acceptable.
so you are ok with "Christ" but not "Virgin"? Really?and I figured that everyone would assume that, obviously, the divine nature of the Stigmata could be argued against, but the actual existence of wounds in those places (however they got there) would not... because that's just useless to argue against...

but, see, here's the crazy thing, Sweeney... I am not getting an "unfair advantage" by bringing attributes of my faith into this... I don't believe Mary was always a virgin, I don't believe in Stigmata (although I guess its possible), I don't believe in Sainthood...

But when we have a category for "Saints", religion is involved, just like in "religious figures"... and Mary is known for religious reasons...

also as far as "OG Madonna" goes, you should really look up what the word means because calling Mary "Madonna" is improper as a "Madonna" is simply a painting of the Virgin Mary... Which means calling her that not only is improper, but it actually would involve calling her the "Virgin Mary" which is what you are arguing against...

 
I mean, seriously, Sweeney...

you realize that I don't believe that Mary was a virgin her whole life... I don't believe in the assumption of Mary... I don't pray the rosary...

I don't believe in "sainthood" as the Catholic church believes it...

I don't, as of now, believe in the validity of Stigmata, although I won't deny that its possible...

and my personal beliefs are VERY far from Roman Catholicism...

right?

So all your ranting and raving about me not bringing my religion into this is nonsense because I'M NOT!

I have, however, picked people who are important to human history for RELIGIOUS REASONS and that means that those RELIGIOUS REASONS must be stated... And, honestly, I don't really care if you don't like it...
Just don't state them as fact, state them as belief. Make sure you say people believed he got stigmata, especially since you yourself don't believe that it happened. If Mary's not a virgin, don't call her the Virgin Mary, though by your statement it seems you believe that she was for Jesus' birth, although I could be reading that wrong. I am not arguing about you bringing religion into it, it's a necessary thing. I am arguing that you are attributing divine acts to some of your picks, and for the purposes of this draft, they are not allowed.
OF COURSE THEY ARE BELIEFS!!sheesh, the whole reason I said that you are letting your anti-religious leanings get the best of you here is because THESE AREN'T EVEN MY BELIEFS THAT I AM STATING! I am merely mentioning reasons they are considered what they are considered and what people believe about them...

Mary IS called "the Virgin Mary", its what people call her. I don't believe in sainthood the way the Catholic Church does, either, but I still call St. Francis "St."... Why? Because that's what he is most commonly refered to as. Same with Mary. She is most commonly referred to as the "Virgin Mary", so that's what I used...

and, honestly, you should just be glad I didn't use something like "the Most Holy and Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God" as my description of her...

 
I was going to take Princip as a rebel, and then decided that he fits better in a wildcard spot so I like the pick, although he's going to be an interesting judging exercise. He killed one person, and he did it as part of a rising people's rebellion. And his rhetoric surely was similar to someone that headed a massive movement. But the events that happened after he fired that gun were entirely out of his hands.Ho is an interesting pick as well. I wouldn't rank him in the top 20 leaders but I can see an argument.
I don't know where Ho might rank, frankly I don't care because I am not looking at this draft as a "win/lose" thing. But, one has to give credit to Ho in what he did accomplish as a leader. Began a movement in 1941 while world tensions were high with WWII. Came into power in 1945. Defeated a powerful French Union in 1954. Lost power in the late 50's but remained a figure head in the Vietnam government. Held power for over a decade. Helped create an army, movement, for beating the only super power in the world at that time (USA). Not many can say they have successfully kicked the USA out of their country, right? Also has the capital names after him, loved by "most" citizens or so we are lead to believe, and is on the face of their money. Not sure if he would be top 10 but he should rank in the top 15 in this case for the influence, good and bad, that he had on the world as a whole.I will save my comments for now about Princip because I would like to hear others thoughts about him. I believe, if looked at objectively, he could easily rank as the #1 Villain... and should be rated in the top 5 at least. Again, I will wait for others to comment.

 
UPDATED MARIO KART'S SELECTIONS (see post #3862 for original post)

It is about time I pick my leader... for now. There have been many people to lead people to victory for their freedom. While the methods may be unconventional and while the enemies appear allied, one thing is for certain in the lifetime of humanity and that is: if you invade a country or attack on their home turf, people will defend what they have. There have been many leaders who have overcome a stronger opponent. There are many leaders who have countered an invaders ploy. There have not been many invaders who have overcome the known Super Power of the world than this most recent one. Who is he? Mario Kart selects:

10.20 - Ho Chi Minh - Leader

Hồ Chí Minh listen (help·info) (name pronounced [hò̤ tɕǐmɪ̄ɲ]) (May 19, 1890 – September 2, 1969) was a Vietnamese Communist revolutionary and statesman who was Prime Minister (1946–1955) and President (1946–1969) of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam (North Vietnam).

Ho led the Viet Minh independence movement from 1941 onward, establishing the communist-governed Democratic Republic of Vietnam in 1945 and defeating the French Union in 1954 at Dien Bien Phu. He lost political power inside North Vietnam in the late 1950s, but remained as the highly visible figurehead president until his death. He was named by Time Magazine as one of the 100 most influential people of the 20th century,[1] while the former capital of South Vietnam, Saigon, was renamed Ho Chi Minh City in his honor.

-----------------------------------------------------

I have read the debates in this thread about villains and while I do not totally agree with the "body count" makes the villain the worst argument, it does hold some sway. If Hitler is going to be charged with ~30 million lives or whatever number it is... how many did he kill directly? Probably not many but that number was "in his name" which makes him bad. On the flip side, Jesus was not about killing people nor did he probably take another life but people after him have killed "in his name" and therefore he would be considered bad if put into the Villain category. At least he should be because more people have died "in his name" than any other person in history. So, if those people could be considered bad or villains because people have died "in their name" how would the catalyst to those events stack up? People will not have died in this person's name but it was because of him that many millions of people died. People do not worship this man but millions perished because of what he did. Is he the worst of the worst? Depends who you ask. But, the worst of the worst happened because of this man. People have asked if Hitler never was in power what would have happened? What if Hitler was never given the chance to get into power to begin with? This man, allowed Hitler to rise up into power and cause the damage he did. He also helped Stalin become the evil he did. Sure, Europe was not the most steady of places in the 1910's but a spark is needed before the fire starts. With that said, Mario Kart selects:

11.01 - Gavrilo Princip - Villain

Gavrilo Princip (Cyrillic: Гаврило Принцип, IPA: [gaʋ'ri:lɔ 'prinʦip]) (July 25, 1894 – April 28, 1918) was a Yugoslav nationalist associated with the freedom movement Mlada Bosna.[1] Princip assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria and his wife in Sarajevo on June 28, 1914.[2] Princip and his accomplices were arrested and implicated a number of members of the Serbian Military, leading Austria-Hungary to issue a démarche to Serbia known as the July Ultimatum.[3] This set off a chain of events that led to World War I.[4]

Princip attempted suicide first by ingesting cyanide, and then with the use of his pistol. But he vomited the past-date poison (as did Čabrinović, leading the police to believe the group had been deceived and bought a much weaker poison). The pistol was wrestled from his hand before he had a chance to fire another shot.

Princip was too young to receive the death penalty, being twenty-seven days short of his twentieth birthday at the time of the assassination. Instead, he received the maximum sentence of twenty years in prison. He was held in harsh conditions which were worsened by the war. He died of tuberculosis[2] on April 28, 1918 at Theresienstadt (a place which later became infamous as a Nazi concentration camp). At the time of his death, Princip weighed around 40 kilograms (88 lb. or 6.5 stones), weakened by malnutrition, blood loss, and disease.

The house where Gavrilo Princip lived in Sarajevo was destroyed during the First World War. After the war, it became a museum in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia was conquered by Germany in 1941 and Sarajevo became part of fascist Croatia. The Croatian fascists destroyed the house again. The Yugoslav communists under Tito established a communist Yugoslavia in 1944. The house of Gavrilo Princip became a museum again and there was another museum dedicated to him within the city of Sarajevo. During the Yugoslav Wars of the 1990s, the house of Gavrilo Princip was destroyed a third time by the government; no attempts to rebuild it have yet been announced. The Gavrilo Princip museum has been turned into a museum dedicated to Archduke Ferdinand and the Habsburg monarchy. Prior to the 1990s the site on the pavement on which Princip stood to fire the fatal shots was marked by embossed footprints. These were removed as a consequence of the 1992-5 war in Bosnia and the perception of Princip as having been a Serb nationalist. Later, a simple wooden memorial was placed near the site of the assassination with the words "May Peace Prevail on Earth" in Bosnian, Serbian and English.

Unwittingly, he is one of the most influential people in 20th century history, being indirectly responsible for sparking the chain of events that led to both World Wars.[6] [7]

Mario Kart

Leaders - Ho Chi Minh (post #3916) (10.20)

Military - Sun Tzu (post #45) (1.01)

Scientist -

Inventor -

Discoverer/Explorer - Giovanni da Pian del Carpine (post #1281) (2.20)

Humanitarian/Saint/Martyr -

Novelist/Short stories - J. R. R. Tolkien (post #3003)(6.20)

Playwrights/Poets - Geoffrey Chaucer (post #1295) (3.01)

Villain - Gavrilo Princip (post #3916) (11.01)

Athlete -

Composer - Antonio Vivaldi (post #3403) (9.01)

Musicians/Performers -

Painter - Claude Monet (post #2236) (4.20)

Artist/Non-Painter - Auguste Rodin (post #2248) (5.01)

Philosopher -

Religious Figure - Pope Gregory XIII (post #3371) (8.20)

Celebrity -

Intellectual - John Maynard Keynes (post #3003) (7.01)

Rebel -

Wildcards -

Wildcards -

Wildcards -

 
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I mean, seriously, Sweeney...

you realize that I don't believe that Mary was a virgin her whole life... I don't believe in the assumption of Mary... I don't pray the rosary...

I don't believe in "sainthood" as the Catholic church believes it...

I don't, as of now, believe in the validity of Stigmata, although I won't deny that its possible...

and my personal beliefs are VERY far from Roman Catholicism...

right?

So all your ranting and raving about me not bringing my religion into this is nonsense because I'M NOT!

I have, however, picked people who are important to human history for RELIGIOUS REASONS and that means that those RELIGIOUS REASONS must be stated... And, honestly, I don't really care if you don't like it...
Just don't state them as fact, state them as belief. Make sure you say people believed he got stigmata, especially since you yourself don't believe that it happened. If Mary's not a virgin, don't call her the Virgin Mary, though by your statement it seems you believe that she was for Jesus' birth, although I could be reading that wrong. I am not arguing about you bringing religion into it, it's a necessary thing. I am arguing that you are attributing divine acts to some of your picks, and for the purposes of this draft, they are not allowed.
OF COURSE THEY ARE BELIEFS!!sheesh, the whole reason I said that you are letting your anti-religious leanings get the best of you here is because THESE AREN'T EVEN MY BELIEFS THAT I AM STATING! I am merely mentioning reasons they are considered what they are considered and what people believe about them...

Mary IS called "the Virgin Mary", its what people call her. I don't believe in sainthood the way the Catholic Church does, either, but I still call St. Francis "St."... Why? Because that's what he is most commonly refered to as. Same with Mary. She is most commonly referred to as the "Virgin Mary", so that's what I used...

and, honestly, you should just be glad I didn't use something like "the Most Holy and Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God" as my description of her...
Well that would be wholly struck down as entirely inappropriate so why should I be glad? You make a decent point about the St and calling her Virgin Mary, though I still disagree with the title as it implies a divine act. Being sainted isn't a divine act, it's an honorific added by the mortals of the Church. I also don't recall you calling him Christ, I thought you were always referring to him as Jesus of Nazareth for the purposes of not assigning him his faith derived attributes. You also indicated in your statement about Jesus that he is believed to be the son of God by X number of people, so simply use those terms when talking about Assisi. THat's all I've been saying. You listed under a group of accomplishments by him that he received the stigmata, change that to he is believed my X number of people of faith to have received the stigmata and I have no problem with it.I am not an anti religious zealot. Most of the ant religous stuff I am saying here is strictly in terms of the rules of this draft, which you don't seem to grasp. I usually only go on anti religious rants when someone spouts off pure nonsense like God was the pilot for the Hudson river airplane but then it's "no one knows God's will 2 weeks later in Buffalo. Or a religion that's spent an inordinate time fleeing persecution for their unpopular views of marriage and hold up as near saints two men who themselves wholeheartedly believed plural marriage was God's will then go on a rampage to deny a different set of people the rights to have their own unorthodox marriages. In other words, if one keeps his faith to onesself then I keep my so called zealotry to myself. And no I am not gay but I feel exceptionally ashamed to live in a state that voted to repeal rights away from it's citizens in an act of discrimination.

 
Well that would be wholly struck down as entirely inappropriate so why should I be glad? You make a decent point about the St and calling her Virgin Mary, though I still disagree with the title as it implies a divine act. Being sainted isn't a divine act, it's an honorific added by the mortals of the Church. I also don't recall you calling him Christ, I thought you were always referring to him as Jesus of Nazareth for the purposes of not assigning him his faith derived attributes. You also indicated in your statement about Jesus that he is believed to be the son of God by X number of people, so simply use those terms when talking about Assisi. THat's all I've been saying. You listed under a group of accomplishments by him that he received the stigmata, change that to he is believed my X number of people of faith to have received the stigmata and I have no problem with it.

I am not an anti religious zealot. Most of the ant religous stuff I am saying here is strictly in terms of the rules of this draft, which you don't seem to grasp. I usually only go on anti religious rants when someone spouts off pure nonsense like God was the pilot for the Hudson river airplane but then it's "no one knows God's will 2 weeks later in Buffalo. Or a religion that's spent an inordinate time fleeing persecution for their unpopular views of marriage and hold up as near saints two men who themselves wholeheartedly believed plural marriage was God's will then go on a rampage to deny a different set of people the rights to have their own unorthodox marriages. In other words, if one keeps his faith to onesself then I keep my so called zealotry to myself. And no I am not gay but I feel exceptionally ashamed to live in a state that voted to repeal rights away from it's citizens in an act of discrimination.
I know it would, my point was that I could probably find something similar to that as an "official title" of Mary...as far as Jesus goes, I'm merely noting you didn't say anything when people (including me) have referred to Him as "Christ" in various ways...

and the stigmata thing... honestly, I assumed the "believed to be" thing was assumed... its stigmata... By my estimates the wounds were real-ish (at minimum), and the divine nature of them were fake... That's why i said it like I did... Because I figured that we could agree that someone likely had to have actually seen the wounds on his body, even if they were self-inflicted... Thus calling it "Stigmata" is still an accurate description, even if it isn't divine on any level...

:rant:

as far as gay marriage, I tend to agree with you... it annoys me when Christians (or anyone else) try to legislate their morality on others... its one thing to stop people from causing direct harm to other people, its another thing to try and ban people from doing harmless things that you don't like...

 
I was going to take Princip as a rebel, and then decided that he fits better in a wildcard spot so I like the pick, although he's going to be an interesting judging exercise. He killed one person, and he did it as part of a rising people's rebellion. And his rhetoric surely was similar to someone that headed a massive movement. But the events that happened after he fired that gun were entirely out of his hands.Ho is an interesting pick as well. I wouldn't rank him in the top 20 leaders but I can see an argument.
I don't know where Ho might rank, frankly I don't care because I am not looking at this draft as a "win/lose" thing. But, one has to give credit to Ho in what he did accomplish as a leader. Began a movement in 1941 while world tensions were high with WWII. Came into power in 1945. Defeated a powerful French Union in 1954. Lost power in the late 50's but remained a figure head in the Vietnam government. Held power for over a decade. Helped create an army, movement, for beating the only super power in the world at that time (USA). Not many can say they have successfully kicked the USA out of their country, right? Also has the capital names after him, loved by "most" citizens or so we are lead to believe, and is on the face of their money. Not sure if he would be top 10 but he should rank in the top 15 in this case for the influence, good and bad, that he had on the world as a whole.I will save my comments for now about Princip because I would like to hear others thoughts about him. I believe, if looked at objectively, he could easily rank as the #1 Villain... and should be rated in the top 5 at least. Again, I will wait for others to comment.
Wow, not only did you go to mass and drink the whole chalice but you had peyote and cilocybin mushroom pizza afterwards. The assassination very literally would've happened if he didn't do it, there was a huge plot in motion and he was one of seven men in position to try. That he got the kill is a matter of luck. I am not sure what the death toll of WWI was but can it top the 6 miilion Jews alone, much less the war casualties of the war Hitler started? And before you go into WWII being a product of the war Princip "started", I lay the blame squarely on the Treaty of Versaille for completely crippling Germany to the point that they were easily manipulated into the bloody World War. Does Princip stand out against Stalin? Mao? Pol Pot, who had prisoners dig their own mass graves before clubbing them to death to save bullets? Mengele who personally tortured and killed thousands (including thousands of children) by disgusting and inhumanly grotesque experiments? Who boiled, burned, crushed, amputated, maimed, infected and in some cases even sewed together twins, as well as dissected many while still alive, all just to see how long a person could live under those conditions. You think the lucky shooter of seven assassins "easily" outranks these guys as villains? Really?I thought you said you weren't a debate starter.

IMO, he would serve you better as a wildcard, as a villain I can't even see him in the top ten.

 
Well that would be wholly struck down as entirely inappropriate so why should I be glad? You make a decent point about the St and calling her Virgin Mary, though I still disagree with the title as it implies a divine act. Being sainted isn't a divine act, it's an honorific added by the mortals of the Church. I also don't recall you calling him Christ, I thought you were always referring to him as Jesus of Nazareth for the purposes of not assigning him his faith derived attributes. You also indicated in your statement about Jesus that he is believed to be the son of God by X number of people, so simply use those terms when talking about Assisi. THat's all I've been saying. You listed under a group of accomplishments by him that he received the stigmata, change that to he is believed my X number of people of faith to have received the stigmata and I have no problem with it.

I am not an anti religious zealot. Most of the ant religous stuff I am saying here is strictly in terms of the rules of this draft, which you don't seem to grasp. I usually only go on anti religious rants when someone spouts off pure nonsense like God was the pilot for the Hudson river airplane but then it's "no one knows God's will 2 weeks later in Buffalo. Or a religion that's spent an inordinate time fleeing persecution for their unpopular views of marriage and hold up as near saints two men who themselves wholeheartedly believed plural marriage was God's will then go on a rampage to deny a different set of people the rights to have their own unorthodox marriages. In other words, if one keeps his faith to onesself then I keep my so called zealotry to myself. And no I am not gay but I feel exceptionally ashamed to live in a state that voted to repeal rights away from it's citizens in an act of discrimination.
I know it would, my point was that I could probably find something similar to that as an "official title" of Mary...as far as Jesus goes, I'm merely noting you didn't say anything when people (including me) have referred to Him as "Christ" in various ways...

and the stigmata thing... honestly, I assumed the "believed to be" thing was assumed... its stigmata... By my estimates the wounds were real-ish (at minimum), and the divine nature of them were fake... That's why i said it like I did... Because I figured that we could agree that someone likely had to have actually seen the wounds on his body, even if they were self-inflicted... Thus calling it "Stigmata" is still an accurate description, even if it isn't divine on any level...

:rant:

as far as gay marriage, I tend to agree with you... it annoys me when Christians (or anyone else) try to legislate their morality on others... its one thing to stop people from causing direct harm to other people, its another thing to try and ban people from doing harmless things that you don't like...
You said he "received the stigmata" in a list of factual things he did. That implies much, much more than what you are saying now. As for the Christ, in casual debates I don't mind but when you are listing attributes to be considered for judgment I don't recall you using the Christ aspect as it seemed like you were deliberately and rightly staying away from that.
 
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