timschochet
Footballguy
Hard to argue with Augustus Caesar as the #1 Leader of all time. Rome has such lasting influence on human culture, even so many centuries after it's destruction.
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World's Greatest Draft (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
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Arsenal of Doom
Footballguy
He was around for a long time
dparker713
Footballguy
I would also like to add that there are plenty more major empires than the ones taught in your average 8th grade ancient history class.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I'm extremely happy with two very, very arguable 1a/1b guys from the 10th spot.
timschochet
Footballguy
So far to me, in the very early rounds, nobody is having a better draft than Mad Sweeney.
Newton and Augustus could have been the first two people selected in the entire draft, and I wouldn't have had any problem with it.
Newton and Augustus could have been the first two people selected in the entire draft, and I wouldn't have had any problem with it.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Doug B said in the G.A.D. he generally goes on autoskip for these drafts (you may 'see' him in the thread or FFA, but just as likely he has it opened and minimized).IIRC, however, he did not want to be skipped in this one, at least for now.He was around for a long time
timschochet
Footballguy
I still think there's at least one pretty clear 1a/1b selection in this draft, possibly 2. More importantly, there are a TON of selections that are pretty clear top 5 selections in each category. IMO, the ability to grab enough of these people in the next several rounds will determine more than any other factor the winner of this draft.
timschochet
Footballguy
Even if he wanted to, there's to be no skipping until Monday.Doug B said in the G.A.D. he generally goes on autoskip for these drafts (you may 'see' him in the thread or FFA, but just as likely he has it opened and minimized).IIRC, however, he did not want to be skipped in this one, at least for now.He was around for a long time
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Definitely not until there's a clock. He said in the first round that he didn't mind only me skipping him just once to keep the draft moving.Doug B said in the G.A.D. he generally goes on autoskip for these drafts (you may 'see' him in the thread or FFA, but just as likely he has it opened and minimized).IIRC, however, he did not want to be skipped in this one, at least for now.He was around for a long time
Doug B
Footballguy
And now, it's become a game of guessing who's most likely to slip ... and figuring out that if someone doesn't slip, in which category it will it hurt the least. Therefore:
2.12 - Julius Caesar, Military Leader
Read more on the Military career of Julius Caesar
2.12 - Julius Caesar, Military Leader
Read more on the Military career of Julius Caesar
Had to work hard to get the spotlighting cleaned up
timschochet
Footballguy
440 selections out of billions of possibilities. There really is no excuse for a poor selection in this draft. The only picks I have criticized so far had to do with my opinion that they were selected too early, not that they didn't belong. If we get a selection here at some point of someone who really does not belong, that will be a great embarrassment.Galileo is a great pick. 20 people are too many in this draft. Too much talent slipping away here in between picks.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Solid solid choices up and down here. Sitting here waiting and watching people go is getting seriously frustrating.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
This was the half guy I was pondering. Too many categories to put him in and not high enough in any, IMO, to take with who's still left. However, his name recognition might score some points in the voting stage since he is by far a "sexier" to people on first glance. I know he was to me at least.And now, it's become a game of guessing who's most likely to slip ... and figuring out that if someone doesn't slip, in which category it will it hurt the least. Therefore:
2.12 - Julius Caesar, Military Leader
Read more on the Military career of Julius Caesar
Had to work hard to get the spotlighting cleaned up
FUBAR
Footballguy
He's certainly in the top tier. Probably #1, but I'm not decided yet.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I think it's only going to get worse. And of course it increases as your pick gets closer.And sugueing into snipes, are we going to have Polk Is A ##### Award for this draft?
timschochet
Footballguy
In addition to the standard praise being showered on the last two picks, it should also be noted that:
1. Caesar's Palace is a fine hotel and casino.
2. Caesar's salad is a tasty dish if made correctly.
1. Caesar's Palace is a fine hotel and casino.
2. Caesar's salad is a tasty dish if made correctly.
Doug B
Footballguy
I didn't go anywhere ... but with no clock, I like to deliberateHe was around for a long time
This is one reason why I go on autoskip in these things ... I hate being rushed
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Looking at how everyone is drafting so far, I doubt I'll be Polking anyone here.
flysack
Footballguy
Did they last as long?Did they contribute as much to world culture?
The mythical Shang, Chou, the Chi'en (China) all were great and contributed a lot, but not as much as Rome.
Same with the Incas, Aztecs, and Mayans.
And all of those empires lack a solid #1 guy who contributed so much to their existence. There's no Augustus in those empires.
The closest figure I can compare is XXXX of Egypt. Even then, that Kingdom was around long before him and long after. He was merely the best of a long line of others.
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timschochet
Footballguy
Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with Caesar.
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with Caesar.
flysack
Footballguy
Ha! Not named after Augustus, but after a chef named Caesar from Tijuana. Not all salads are named from people in 8th grade history books.
Arsenal of Doom
Footballguy
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I need someone to take Oprah or Hulk Hogan... help a brother out.
timschochet
Footballguy
I couldn't quote the whole speech because of all the spotlighting involved, but it's an amazing speech, one of Shakespeare's best, about how important a human being is in the long run. It ends with:
But here I am to speak what I do know.
You all did love him once, not without cause:
What cause withholds you then, to mourn for him?
O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason. Bear with me;
My heart is in the coffin there with Caesar,
And I must pause till it come back to me.
Of course, the Bard's Julius Caesar is a creation of his imagination, not the real man; probably not even a reasonable facsimile. But it's Shakespeare's representation that we remember; he has created history for us.
But here I am to speak what I do know.
You all did love him once, not without cause:
What cause withholds you then, to mourn for him?
O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason. Bear with me;
My heart is in the coffin there with Caesar,
And I must pause till it come back to me.
Of course, the Bard's Julius Caesar is a creation of his imagination, not the real man; probably not even a reasonable facsimile. But it's Shakespeare's representation that we remember; he has created history for us.
Doug B
Footballguy
I missed much of the Augustus discussion that spotlit and underrated Julius Caesar. Just wanted to point out that without JC's military acumen, Augustus's empire is confined largely to a long strip of western Mediterranean coast ... far smaller and much less influential than it ended up being. Julius Caesar laid the groundwork for 2000 years of European cultural (if not political) solidarity.
timschochet
Footballguy
Oh yeah? Who was that chef named after, smarty pants? And if that was his last name, how do you know he's not a direct descendent? Huh?
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Or
Elvis
(which, for all the mocking we did, netted thatguy 1st place)
Very solid drafting - maybe 2 or 3 slight reaches, but even those were not egregious.
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flysack
Footballguy
Pick 2.11 Joe (My Barber)No other person has contributed to the amount of tail I've conquered, besides myself. Without his cuts I'd be an average bum chasing any drunk fatty that'd roll in a blanket of flour. But with Joe, I've been transformed into a babe magnet. Joe has done this for a number of men, making him a general of studs, or perhaps a leader, or maybe just an intellectual on male beauty. He is the ultimate Wildcard. Go Joe!
timschochet
Footballguy
Is he also a plumber?Pick 2.11 Joe (My Barber)No other person has contributed to the amount of tail I've conquered, besides myself. Without his cuts I'd be an average bum chasing any drunk fatty that'd roll in a blanket of flour. But with Joe, I've been transformed into a babe magnet. Joe has done this for a number of men, making him a general of studs, or perhaps a leader, or maybe just an intellectual on male beauty. He is the ultimate Wildcard. Go Joe!I need someone to take Oprah or Hulk Hogan... help a brother out.
Arsenal of Doom
Footballguy
Pick 2.11 Joe (My Barber)No other person has contributed to the amount of tail I've conquered, besides myself. Without his cuts I'd be an average bum chasing any drunk fatty that'd roll in a blanket of flour. But with Joe, I've been transformed into a babe magnet. Joe has done this for a number of men, making him a general of studs, or perhaps a leader, or maybe just an intellectual on male beauty. He is the ultimate Wildcard. Go Joe!
flysack
Footballguy
1. This is spotlighting. Try being a bit more subtle. [EDIT: OOPS, totally missed him being picked. Apologies.] 2. This makes Daddy a good general (Military), not Leader. i.e. I think you're missing the point.
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timschochet
Footballguy
Come on, BL- you too?Or xxxxxx...(which, for all the mocking we did, netted thatguy 1st place)
Very solid drafting - maybe 2 or 3 slight reaches, but even those were not egregious.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I didn't mean to underrate Caesar, he's among the first names that pop into my mind as great people in history. My main decision point for him is that he is much higher rated in military than as a leader and there are more of those guys I'd rate higher than there are leaders I would rate higher than Augustus. There is and will be a LOT of Ladderism. So many of our picks are going to be able to do what they did only because someone else did something big before them. The Plato/Socrates/Aristotle debate is a prime example. That's what makes the choices so hard. i tried to allude to the fact that Augusts' Empire was built on what Julius built before him but I worded it very poorly. Without the consolidation and conquest of JC, AC wouldn't have been able to concentrate inside his borders.
flysack
Footballguy
No. But he does have a side gig as a conservative correspondent in Israel, which is practically the same thing.Is he also a plumber?Pick 2.11 Joe (My Barber)No other person has contributed to the amount of tail I've conquered, besides myself. Without his cuts I'd be an average bum chasing any drunk fatty that'd roll in a blanket of flour. But with Joe, I've been transformed into a babe magnet. Joe has done this for a number of men, making him a general of studs, or perhaps a leader, or maybe just an intellectual on male beauty. He is the ultimate Wildcard. Go Joe!
thatguy
Footballguy
Dude I already got Polked by Andy Dufresne. ####### Gengis Khan.
Arsenal of Doom
Footballguy
To be a true Polking Andy would have needed to have Alexander on his roster already, and only picking Genghis out of deep seeded spite and malice.
dparker713
Footballguy
Dont forget Middle East, Indian, SE Asian, sub-Saharan African, Polish, Russian, Celtic.... I guess I dont see how you can credit Augustus with everything that was to become the Roman Empire. I think there are plenty of leaders that were more impressive in their lifetimes than Augustus. And when it comes down to it, many of hte most lasting contributions of Rome can be directly attributed to other people. And like every major power we're discussing other than the US, Rome eventually fell.
Basically, there are a ton of different ways of evaluating the leaders category. I mean, if we're going most influential, Im not picking Augustus as even the most influential Roman Emperor. There are alot of impressive rulers out there, just seems a shame that we should be judging them mainly on how large their Empire eventually became.
thatguy
Footballguy
Solid point. I don't know much about Andy, but I think he has it in him to Polk me at least once or twice before we're through here.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
I cannot really quarrel with this pick; I have him in my second tier. The first tier was Genghis Khan and Alexander. The second tier includes Napoleon and Caesar, as well as five others. Caesar was a master of organization and strategy; he was not particularly innovative in tactics, with the exception of the brilliance of the double walled battle of Alessia. But he relied on the training of his troops, and he trained them well and gained their loyalty and devotion.The remaining Roman legions were no match for his seasoned veterans once he crossed the Rubicon. Personally, I place him 6th in the tier, but a good argument can be made for any of them.And now, it's become a game of guessing who's most likely to slip ... and figuring out that if someone doesn't slip, in which category it will it hurt the least. Therefore:
2.12 - Julius Caesar, Military Leader
Read more on the Military career of Julius Caesar
Had to work hard to get the spotlighting cleaned up
Doug B
Footballguy
Yup ... check the category in which I slotted JC.I didn't miss your point, but I am intentionally side-stepping it. My own point is only that Julius Caesar's accomplishments contributed in a huge measure to the greatness and influence of Augustus' empire.
Gigantomachia
Footballguy
Without a doubt the number one philosopher on my list. Whitehead once wrote that all of philosophy is but a footnote to Plato, I think he might have been right. That being said, as Plato is one of the figures I have studied most--I even learned to read Greek just so I could read Plato in his original language--much of what the tradition "said" was Plato's philosophy more than likely was not. Clearly Plato reveals something about his philosophical approach in his style. As Plato wrote in what is known as the "Seventh Letter," philosophy is something that happens in the mist of discourse. It is like a flash of lightening that lights up the area so you can see everything, but just long enough to know something was there, but not long enough to know what that was exactly.I can read Plato over and over and over and I find something new every time. From the way he frames his discourses to the attitudes particular individuals embody and the relationship of their names to the theme: such as Phadrus and Lysias. Just what Plato's philosophy was, however, remains in question. Irrespective of this matter, however, the fact that the tradition followed many of what I would term "Platonist" ideals and that we still struggle with many of the same questions today, proves that much of how we think remains defendant upon this man's influence.It is impossible to talk too much about Plato without spotlighting two other giants of philosophy. Of course, we all know who those two are, so really, I think it matters little. A great pick and was on my short list.For Andy Dufresne:
1.16: Plato - Philosopher
Plato was a Classical Greek philosopher, mathematician, writer of philosophical dialogues, and founder of the Academy in Athens, the first institution of higher learning in the western world.
Along with his mentor and his student, Plato helped to lay the foundations of Western philosophy.
Which in my humble yet accurate opinion is the superior worldwide philosophy.
Is ideas on the state and the idea of democracy laid the foundation for governance in the (mostly) free western world and without him the world would be a much different, darker place.
I had ten "bigs" on my list. Now I have nine. Dufresne gets a big
Doug B
Footballguy
Oof -- I badly miscalculated.Two consolations: (1) Michelangelo has a shot at a #1 ranking of his own; and (2) Julius Caesar is a "name" guy.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
2.13--Mao Zedong--Political Leader
Since 2 of the Top Three dictators of the 20th century have already been taken, I'll take the third. Mao led the Communist Party of China (CPC) to victory against the Kuomintang (KMT) in the Chinese Civil War, and was the leader of the People’s Republic of China (PRC) from its establishment in 1949 until his death in 1976. Chairman Mao has been regarded as one of the most important figures in modern world history,[1] and named by Time Magazine as one of the 100 most influential people of the 20th century.[2]
He is officially held in high regard in China where he is portrayed as a great revolutionary, political strategist, and military mastermind who defeated xxxxxxx in the Chinese Civil War, and then through his policies transformed the country into a major world power. Additionally, Mao is viewed by many in China as a poet, philosopher, and visionary.[3] However, Mao remains a controversial figure to this day, with a contentious and ever evolving legacy. Critics blame many of Mao's socio-political programs, such as the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, for causing severe damage to the culture, society, economy, and foreign relations of China, as well as a probable death toll in the tens of millions.[4]
From the Long March, to the Great Leap Forward to the Red Guards and the Cultural Revolution and the Little Red Book, Mao brought China kicking and screaming into the modern world. Maoism as a version of Communism was adopted by insurgent movements in may parts of the world.
Since 2 of the Top Three dictators of the 20th century have already been taken, I'll take the third. Mao led the Communist Party of China (CPC) to victory against the Kuomintang (KMT) in the Chinese Civil War, and was the leader of the People’s Republic of China (PRC) from its establishment in 1949 until his death in 1976. Chairman Mao has been regarded as one of the most important figures in modern world history,[1] and named by Time Magazine as one of the 100 most influential people of the 20th century.[2]
He is officially held in high regard in China where he is portrayed as a great revolutionary, political strategist, and military mastermind who defeated xxxxxxx in the Chinese Civil War, and then through his policies transformed the country into a major world power. Additionally, Mao is viewed by many in China as a poet, philosopher, and visionary.[3] However, Mao remains a controversial figure to this day, with a contentious and ever evolving legacy. Critics blame many of Mao's socio-political programs, such as the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, for causing severe damage to the culture, society, economy, and foreign relations of China, as well as a probable death toll in the tens of millions.[4]
From the Long March, to the Great Leap Forward to the Red Guards and the Cultural Revolution and the Little Red Book, Mao brought China kicking and screaming into the modern world. Maoism as a version of Communism was adopted by insurgent movements in may parts of the world.
thatguy
Footballguy
A villain in my opinion.
Doug B
Footballguy
That's where was thinking he would go, too.
Arsenal of Doom
Footballguy
Since I will be judging both of the Artist categories, I think it is fair to share what my criteria will be for evaluating the selections. I will be assigning a grade in each of the following categories:
Importance to their individual movement(s) (founding or representing the height of the movement)
Influence on subsequent movements (or later Artists in the same)
Innovation or advancement of their medium(s)
Global recognition
Creation of widely recognized masterpieces (Art that the layperson would recognize, and know who did it)
Intangibles (facts or body of work that add to the overall historical influence of the Artist)
I won't be commenting specifically on choices as they are made, but this should give you guideline about what may be important.
Importance to their individual movement(s) (founding or representing the height of the movement)
Influence on subsequent movements (or later Artists in the same)
Innovation or advancement of their medium(s)
Global recognition
Creation of widely recognized masterpieces (Art that the layperson would recognize, and know who did it)
Intangibles (facts or body of work that add to the overall historical influence of the Artist)
I won't be commenting specifically on choices as they are made, but this should give you guideline about what may be important.
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Arsenal of Doom
Footballguy
Yep, was high on my list there.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
Yup. I don't think he's in the top five as a leader, but he sure as hell is in the top five as a villain. All time leader in death count.
thatguy
Footballguy
His death toll is up there with the best of 'em (villains I mean).
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