Is this like getting the Order of Lenin?
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World's Greatest Draft (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
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Mario Kart
Footballguy
I like my team quite a bit. This is not a popularity contest. If it was, I would have taken Jesus at one. This draft is about World History and I have just as good a team as anyone else. Not my fault you don't subscribe to Sun Tzu's theories. If this draft is about influencing people or the amount of people a historical figure helped to change the world... the whole world and not just the Western world... than Sun Tzu has every right to be at the top. China and its wars have had an effect on, possibly, 2 billion people dating back to his time (China alone) plus countless others when his book was translated later on. I am drafting with the world in mind... not just Western thinking.
Thorn
Footballguy
4.14 Euclid, the Father of Geometry, Scientist/Mathematician
Since mathematicians are merged with scientists, I have to imagine that Euclid is near the top of the category, besting arguably all others save Newton. When you took Geometry in high school, it was Euclidian Geometry. In about 300 BCE, he assembled all the known geometrical ideas, all the apparently unrelated pieces of information and developed them into a related, understandable, and beautiful, system.
He described this system in his book, Elements, which has been studied consistently for over two thousand years. It has been translated into every known language, is the most successful textbook of all time, having more editions than any other book ever printed except the Bible. Albert Einstein said of it: "Anyone who was not transported by this book in youth was not born to be a theoretical searcher."
Following in the footsteps of XXX, he championed the use of deductive reasoning to use facts to prove theorems. The study of mechanics, sound, light, navigation, biology, medicine, as well as all branches of science and technology depend upon this man's teachings.
Since mathematicians are merged with scientists, I have to imagine that Euclid is near the top of the category, besting arguably all others save Newton. When you took Geometry in high school, it was Euclidian Geometry. In about 300 BCE, he assembled all the known geometrical ideas, all the apparently unrelated pieces of information and developed them into a related, understandable, and beautiful, system.
He described this system in his book, Elements, which has been studied consistently for over two thousand years. It has been translated into every known language, is the most successful textbook of all time, having more editions than any other book ever printed except the Bible. Albert Einstein said of it: "Anyone who was not transported by this book in youth was not born to be a theoretical searcher."
Following in the footsteps of XXX, he championed the use of deductive reasoning to use facts to prove theorems. The study of mechanics, sound, light, navigation, biology, medicine, as well as all branches of science and technology depend upon this man's teachings.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
7. Usual21 - pick skipped
15. Yankee23fan - Turn To Pick
16. Acer FC - On The Deck
17. FUBAR - In The Hole
18. Arsenal of Doom
19. Larry Boy 44
20. Mario Kart - I want to pick tonight
15. Yankee23fan - Turn To Pick
16. Acer FC - On The Deck
17. FUBAR - In The Hole
18. Arsenal of Doom
19. Larry Boy 44
20. Mario Kart - I want to pick tonight
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timschochet
Footballguy
It's hard to argue with Euclid being one of the greatest scientists, if not the greatest scientist ever. But who do you rank him over?
Newton?
Einstein?
Darwin?
Archimedes?
Yet another impossible category...
Newton?
Einstein?
Darwin?
Archimedes?
Yet another impossible category...
thatguy
Footballguy
I would put him in the tier below Newton and Einstein with Archimedes and Galileo and a few others. I don't think Darwin is in this second tier. One could make an argument that Euclid deserves to be first, although I'm not sure many would buy it. In fact, one could argue that all of those guys in the second tier belong in the same tier as Newton and Einstein, but again popular perception has so long been Newton and Einstein at the top, not many would be convinced.
thatguy
Footballguy
Tim, given that so many categories will be so difficult to rank 1-20, have you considered doing a 1-10 point scale instead like you did for Wild Cards? I really don't see the downside of this... Teams will likely be grouped more closely, but I think as we get to the later rounds, and as long as the judges don't give all eights, nines, and tens, we will see some separation.
Thorn
Footballguy
Sugarloaf, USA. Why did you give up DBDs?Where?I noticed blue intermediates in some parts of the country are equivalent to black diamond in others.And one piece of shameless self-promotion: for the first time in my life, I skied double-diamond expert terrain. Therefore, I have bumped myself up to the 204,438th tier in the Athlete category. Currently targeting the millionth round.
FWIW, gave up DBD in North America after I skied here.
?
Mario Kart
Footballguy
Hey, I am not the one in this thread criticizing people's picks and coming off as a know-it-all. But, continue if it makes you feel better.
Thorn
Footballguy
FWIW today was also the first time I ever wore a helmet skiing.
thatguy
Footballguy
What does TTP mean? Time to pick?
thatguy
Footballguy
Probably a wise move. Although what happened to her was so freakish. I don't know that they gave details of her fall, but the fact that it was bad enough to cause brain hemorrhaging yet not bad enough to make her feel so abnormal as to require medical attention is scary.FWIW today was also the first time I ever wore a helmet skiing.
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timschochet
Footballguy
No no no no. The only reason I get to do that for wildcards is because they really can't be compared to each other, since they represent so many different fields. Part of the great fun of this whole thing is that the category judges have to rank each category 1-20, and will be subject to major criticism when they do. The discussion at that point will be the most stimulating in the entire draft, not to be missed.
thatguy
Footballguy
You're the boss. It's going to be even more controversial in this draft, though, when we see a guy like, oh I don't know, Darwin, ranked 20th (not saying this is where he should fall, but it could happen).
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Yup, been a few times, love it there. Most often we ski in northern Vermont, though I am starting to enjoy Stratton more (90 minutes closer, very well run).I gave up DBD because I got old.Sugarloaf, USA. Why did you give up DBDs?Where?I noticed blue intermediates in some parts of the country are equivalent to black diamond in others.And one piece of shameless self-promotion: for the first time in my life, I skied double-diamond expert terrain. Therefore, I have bumped myself up to the 204,438th tier in the Athlete category. Currently targeting the millionth round.
FWIW, gave up DBD in North America after I skied here.?
I got all that adrenlin stuff (scuba, tree skiing, bungee jumping) out of my system awhile ago.
My gf is an average skier; usually I go halfway down and wait for her, or if we've done several runs, just wait at the bottom. Just like being outdoors and not really look to challenge myself. As Clint Eastwood once said, "A man's got to know his limitations"
I still go in the glades once in awhile, and a friend convinced me to start wearing a helmut 5-6 years ago. But I stay away from really steep grades or terrain parks.
Fennis
Footballguy
Mario Kart
Footballguy
Turn to pick... I edited my original because I remembered I hate abbreviations.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
Possibly to give you more leeway... you should do a base score out of 50 for the Wild Cards. Instead of assigning individual scores to each person, assign a score as a group. Or, up the individual scores to 15 or 20 points each. Allows more leeway for you.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Once again, you don't get it. I never said Sun Tzu was wrong about anything or that he isn't influential. He is not the best 1.01 pick, he is not #1 in the military category or in any category. You seem to think that because I say he was taken too early that I disregard him. Couldn't be more wrong. In fact if you go back I said that I was thinking about him since I figured for sure he wouldn't go in the top 10. Further, you referenced that statement in defense of your pick to all the others that agree that it was a reach.My critiques of people in this draft are relative to their round taken, not their worth of not being on this list.
You're also wrong about what this draft is about. It isn't The World's Most Influential People or The Amount A Person Has Helped Change The World Draft. It's the World's Greatest Draft. Alexander, Hannibal, Khan and Napoleon are all GREATER military figures than Sun Tzu.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
This is actually almost as ridiculous as your previous statement since this all started by you telling me how much less than you I know about history.
The Real Hipster Doofus
Footballguy
This draft has got me thinking. Having recently (volunatarily) joined the ranks of the unemployed, I finally have some free time. Would like to get back to regularly reading again. Any suggestions for a good read? I don't really want to get into any of the classics being discussed in these drafts, I generally prefer history books. Particularly military history. I'm sure Ozymandius or perhaps even Tim has something in mind for me to dig into.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
I am pretty sure Tim will back me up here, but the terms "greatness" and why we are doing this draft is because different people use that term in different ways. I view "greatness" in who are originators or who rise up and do something or who think of something and others follow that. Like I stated many posts ago, the 1.01 was either Sun Tzu or Alexander.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
I just finished The Greatest Battle: Stalin, Hitler, and the Desperate Struggle for Moscow That Changed the Course of World War II by Andrew Nagorski.Terrific read.
:X
dparker713
Footballguy
That is very much your opinion, and not one I, in particular, agree with.
The Real Hipster Doofus
Footballguy
Looks interesting.... Added to the cart
The Real Hipster Doofus
Footballguy
I would say your opinion would without a doubt be in the minority. Not saying its wrong because it really is hard to slot these guys. But those 4 are what I usually see as the top of the heap when most people talk military figures.
dparker713
Footballguy
And most of the time people arent including military theorists in the discussion. Sun Tzu is without a doubt the top military theorist in history, so its a question of how you mix generals with theorists.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Of course it's my opinion. And when Ozy judges military or whoever judges any of the categories it will be based on their opinion. I view greatness in terms of accomplishment first, legacy and influence second. Three of those people have been judged by and large in the opinions of learned men to be the greatest military men in all of history without the benefit of Tzu's book. Those men that accomplished are going to rank higher than those that talked about it.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
Not sure what others will think of William J. Bennett but I am reading his book right now, America: The Last Best Hope... there are two volumes of it as America has had a lot happen. The book does not go into depth that much about events or people but it gives a good primer to the history and also allows you to ask yourself "This is interesting... I would like to know more about (fill in people/event here)" and continue reading. I remember in the GAD, people never heard of the night Lincoln was killed and what else should have gone down (the four men getting killed). Well, the book tells of this event pretty good so he does hit some things that may not be readily known as well.I just finished The Greatest Battle: Stalin, Hitler, and the Desperate Struggle for Moscow That Changed the Course of World War II by Andrew Nagorski.Terrific read.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I've said this several times. See my above post about where to slot Tzu with regards to the great military minds that never heard of him before.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
pick coming
timschochet
Footballguy
Mario is correct that it's up to each drafter to decide what greatness is. That being said, Mad Sweeney is correct, IMO, about the people he ranks ahead of Sun Tzu.
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
dparker713
Footballguy
Ok, see, the bolded segment is a statement in absolute terms - a statement of fact. You seem very unaware in that post that the statement in question is in actuality an opinion. Atleast now you're acknowledging that statement is an opinion.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
That is fine however criticizing in a less than constructive manner does not belong here either.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
The pissing contest is making this decidedly less fun.
The Real Hipster Doofus
Footballguy
True most don't, but I have seen plenty that include him. Not really arguing as I think Tzu is incredibly influential, but I the sheer amount that those 4 accomplished outweighs anything Tzu brought to the table. After they are off the board, I think an argument for Tzu can be made. Just my opinion.
flysack
Footballguy
The pissing contest is making this decidedly less fun.
After this thread, I will forever remember Mario Kart as the SUN TZU! guy.
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mad sweeney
Footballguy
I've never said any different. Maybe this will help you follow the thread-Pretty much any time any of us discuss where someone ranks it can be rightly assumed to be their opinion. In the context of our discussion about Tzu I thought it was very apparent that it was my opinion. As it is with every other post I make. You and Kart seem to be pretty mistakenly keyed into what I do and don't know.
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mad sweeney
Footballguy
Then perhaos you should refrain from it.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Alright, when this draft began there were 10 names that came to mind in antiquity for me that had to be drafted. After this guy wasn't taken in the first two rounds, I figured he might fall. Watching some of the previous picks makes me think he isn't falling much further.
Now, many a scientist has been drafted so far, and each worthy. I wonder, however, how much of an actual influence on all human life those scientists have had to actual practical terms. The inventors have, sure, but has each scientist taken actually done something in a field that we each deal with on a daily basis? Maybe. But this guy has without question, and in perhaps the most important field we have in science. Medicine.
I select the Father of Medicine, Hippocrates He was the person that took medicine out of the spiritual control of oracles and gods and taught that human health was based not on angry gods but on diet, environment and every day occurances that today we take for granted.
Hippocrates began to categorize illnesses as acute, chronic, endemic and epidemic, and use terms such as, "exacerbation, relapse, resolution, crisis, paroxysm, peak, and convalescence." Another of Hippocrates' major contributions may be found in his descriptions of the symptomatology, physical findings, surgical treatment and prognosis of thoracic empyema, i.e. suppuration of the lining of the chest cavity. His teachings remain relevant to present-day students of pulmonary medicine and surgery. Hippocrates was the first documented chest surgeon and his findings are still valid.
So revered was he that after his death the progression of medicine actually stopped because it was thought that no one could be a brilliant as him and therefore there was nothing further to learn and expand on. That is an influence that many here don't have.
Now, many a scientist has been drafted so far, and each worthy. I wonder, however, how much of an actual influence on all human life those scientists have had to actual practical terms. The inventors have, sure, but has each scientist taken actually done something in a field that we each deal with on a daily basis? Maybe. But this guy has without question, and in perhaps the most important field we have in science. Medicine.
I select the Father of Medicine, Hippocrates He was the person that took medicine out of the spiritual control of oracles and gods and taught that human health was based not on angry gods but on diet, environment and every day occurances that today we take for granted.
Hippocrates began to categorize illnesses as acute, chronic, endemic and epidemic, and use terms such as, "exacerbation, relapse, resolution, crisis, paroxysm, peak, and convalescence." Another of Hippocrates' major contributions may be found in his descriptions of the symptomatology, physical findings, surgical treatment and prognosis of thoracic empyema, i.e. suppuration of the lining of the chest cavity. His teachings remain relevant to present-day students of pulmonary medicine and surgery. Hippocrates was the first documented chest surgeon and his findings are still valid.
So revered was he that after his death the progression of medicine actually stopped because it was thought that no one could be a brilliant as him and therefore there was nothing further to learn and expand on. That is an influence that many here don't have.
dparker713
Footballguy
Most of the greatest military minds that you list have technology to credit for a large portion of their dominance. And there are plenty of people that have been influenced by Sun Tzu, he need not have influenced everyone in history to deserve consideration for the top spot.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
It usually helps, however, to know that a man was actually born, lived and accomplished something. Right now, all we have from Sun Tzu is a book that he supposedly wrote, but which could have been a compilation made by a clerk whose master asked him to write to various generals and have them each contribute a chapter. Or it could have been put together gradually, over a period of decades."Scholars have expressed doubt in Sun's historicity and the traditional dating of The Art of War. The skepticism is fueled by factors that include historical inaccuracies and anachronisms in the text, as well as the unlikelihood of the execution of the king's favorite concubines. Increasing skepticism, which sometimes cause scholars to completely deny the existence of a historical figure named Sun Wu (Sun Tzu), has lead to acrimonious debate between skeptics and traditionalists, especially in China. Attribution of The Art of War's authorship varies among scholars, and have included people and movements including Sun; Chu scholar Wu Zixu; an unknown author; a school of thought in Qi or Wu; and Sun Bin."
As soon as we arrive at a category called "Important works on the science and art of war", the work might well have pride of place.
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GTBilly
Footballguy
Brilliance.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Foul, overgeneralization.He should at least have some influence on more than 1 of the 4 greatest military men of history.
The Real Hipster Doofus
Footballguy
I just added this one too. Should be a fun read. Yea the Lincoln conspiracy is very interesting, I read a pretty good book dealing with that subject specifically a few years ago.Not sure what others will think of William J. Bennett but I am reading his book right now, America: The Last Best Hope... there are two volumes of it as America has had a lot happen. The book does not go into depth that much about events or people but it gives a good primer to the history and also allows you to ask yourself "This is interesting... I would like to know more about (fill in people/event here)" and continue reading. I remember in the GAD, people never heard of the night Lincoln was killed and what else should have gone down (the four men getting killed). Well, the book tells of this event pretty good so he does hit some things that may not be readily known as well.I just finished The Greatest Battle: Stalin, Hitler, and the Desperate Struggle for Moscow That Changed the Course of World War II by Andrew Nagorski.Terrific read.
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AcerFC
Footballguy
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