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World's Greatest Draft (1 Viewer)

In the interest of discussion, and because the only girl said it is better than nothing. I never tire of hearing that from a chick :mellow:

Plato: hands down, without a doubt, the top player on the board. Having studied Plato in some detail and spent many hours with his dialogs, I can honestly say I have only begun to explore what appears to be an almost unfathomable intellect. Platonism has done more damage than you can possible imagine to the depth of Plato’s thought. When asked about the one book you can have on an island, Plato’s Complete Works is the only possible answer. Solid pick.

Soren Kierkegaard: I don’t know where Soren was taken, but if not for Plato this would be the best pick in terms of philosophical thought. His Concept of Anxiety is arguable one of the most difficult and profoundly insightful texts I have ever read. Another often misunderstood and over generalized philosopher, this guy could out think the best of them in his sleep. Excellent pick.

Friedrich Nietzsche: I actually think Nietzsche is a bit over the top, but his philosophical bravery, if you will, and ability to think what few had been willing or able to entertain makes him a top philosopher in my book. Considering the radical nature of his thought and his willingness to “think the abyss” Nietzsche is the gem hidden in the sand. Excellent pick.

Ludwig Wittgenstein: Dry, not very inspiring, but arguably one of the smartest humans ever. Excellent pick.

Immanuel Kant: an amazing thinker. Kant’s philosophy fundamentally changed the course of western philosophy. Interestingly, his actual theory was accepted by no one, but the issues he exposed in the tradition itself continue to influence Phenomenology, Pragmatism, Embodiment and even Analytical philosophy. Kant’s philosophy is dense, difficult to follow, and sometimes down right boring. But his mind and range of thought is almost unmatched in the modern world. Excellent pick.

Aristotle: While I like Aristotle, a close examination of his philosophy shows he really is just a reflection of Plato. Granted, he believed we had to learn the forms rather than being born with them but when push comes to shove; he simply restates most of Plato’s central doctrines. He did develop syllogistic logic and showed the importance of empirical learning, but again, what we learn is exactly what Plato said we always already know. Solid thinker and an excellent pick.

St Thomas Aquinas: another brave philosopher. I almost put Aquinas above Aristotle, but in truth, without Aristotle Aquinas would not have had a job. The manner in which Aquinas argues for the unity of Reason and Faith is laudable, even if extremely problematic. Nevertheless, he awoke a love for Aristotle in the west that had been forgotten for too long, and on that alone Aquinas deserves to be ranked with the best. Solid pick.

Rene Descartes: Descartes rounds out the top philosophers taken in the draft. Another thinker with whom I find little to agree with, but one who helped frame modern philosophy. Similar to Kant, the whole of western thought had to deal with Descartes’ questions. His desire to provide humanity with a method for determining “clear and distinct” ideas in the face of the then still dominate Scholasticism is enough to bump Descartes into the group of elite thinkers. Solid Pick.

*Everyone from here down could be arranged in a variety of orders. Some were more influential than others, some we know very little about and the degree to which we attribute ideas to them remains extremely problematic.

Voltaire: Voltaire was cutting edge, fought for the people, and reflected what would become the dominate mode of humanism in Europe. There is no denying Voltaire’s influence on European thought. That being said, he was not the best philosopher, and in fact, represents what would become the field of sociology more so than philosophy. Again, I personally like Voltaire’s work, but as a philosopher he is subpar at best. Good pick.

Confucius: another immensely influential thinker. It is hard to argue against the claim that Confucius had influenced more people than any other philosopher in the world. China continues to follow his ideals, at least in form, to this day. Hard to not take that into account, however, he was taken as a philosopher and on that note he is falls a bit. In fact, I would argue Zhuangzi (a Taoist) is best philosopher China has ever produced. What makes him so is his reaction to Confucianism, which he pushes into deeper and more philosophically interesting directions. So Confucius played a role, but the real philosophical work was done by those that responded to his somewhat dogmatic approach to being. Good pick.

Karl Marx: I love Marx, but again as a philosopher he is a bit too focused on social issues. Personally, I think Marx’s account of the different schools of thought with respect to social organization is the best ever. His take on communism, socialism, and capitalism seems almost dead on. He saw the problems with all of them and argued, even if often misquoted and misunderstood, for something of a blending of all three. Interestingly, that seems to be exactly where politics is headed. Off the charts great political/social thinker, so-so as a philosopher. Solid pick.

Jean-Jacques Rousseau: I have a love-hate relationship with Rousseau. He was hugely influential in pedagogical theory, which is where I come across his ideas the most, but his philosophical take that grounds his views is weak at best, and severely lacks critical reflection at worst. Rousseau had issues, and they are clearly reflected in his works. That being said, Rousseau was still brave enough to go public with views no one really wanted to hear and on that note he was solid. Just because you think everyone is out to get you, doesn’t mean they are not; insider for Rousseau enthusiasts. Good pick.

Ralph Waldo Emerson: Another thinker I love, but another philosopher that was so-so at best. Emerson did get “better” after his son died, which is a ####ty way get snapped out of a dogma but what are you going to do, but he never really got over his absolute optimism. Emerson really believed that we could do no wrong, and while I love this position, he never explained the philosophical workings necessary to hold such a position. This makes him a great writer, huge influence on touchy feel good movements, and an overall solid American but not the best philosopher. Good pick.

These will be explained shortly. They are ranked in order.

Jeremy Bentham

Blaise Pascal

Democritus

Epicurus

Hypatia

Socrates

King Solomon
Socrates at #19...... I GIVE UP.
 
Here's my point total so far, though with the poor math skills I displayed earlier it might need to be checkedHokusai 13Welles 18Dostoeyevsky 18Sophocles 16Marshall 6Urban XII 5da Gama 18Augustus 21Zhuge 10Cousteau 11Cicero 12 Total 138Tim I think you did a good job overall on wildcards, though like everyone I think you were a little light by a few ppoints on some guys and some guys are too high. No real complaints there for a very difficult task. However your capitulating to Larry's whining is a little disturbing. You let him talk you into a 5 for Hogan in the GAD (10 pt scale IIRC) and now you've let him more than double his score because of his patented "so and so was WAY more important than..." or "so and so did WAY more than..." I understand that you used the category judge to help out but I sent you a PM from the explorer's category judge that would rank Cousteau higher than the 11 he got, pointing to the usefulness of the sea vs space. Is Leonidas really worth a 20% change from your research? Although it may have ended differently ahd it not been him, I sincerely doubt he was the only Spartan smart enough or willing to fight the Persians in the gap. As for the legend aspect, Zhuge has as much, if not more if we're to base it on books and movies and tales, in that area that we are not exposed to as Westerners.
Leonidas was the King of Sparta when that battle happened... That's why he led the soldiers...by your logic used here, we could say that every military general could have done what they did given the resources and manpower under them...
 
Here's my point total so far, though with the poor math skills I displayed earlier it might need to be checkedHokusai 13Welles 18Dostoeyevsky 18Sophocles 16Marshall 6Urban XII 5da Gama 18Augustus 21Zhuge 10Cousteau 11Cicero 12 Total 138Tim I think you did a good job overall on wildcards, though like everyone I think you were a little light by a few ppoints on some guys and some guys are too high. No real complaints there for a very difficult task. However your capitulating to Larry's whining is a little disturbing. You let him talk you into a 5 for Hogan in the GAD (10 pt scale IIRC) and now you've let him more than double his score because of his patented "so and so was WAY more important than..." or "so and so did WAY more than..." I understand that you used the category judge to help out but I sent you a PM from the explorer's category judge that would rank Cousteau higher than the 11 he got, pointing to the usefulness of the sea vs space. Is Leonidas really worth a 20% change from your research? Although it may have ended differently ahd it not been him, I sincerely doubt he was the only Spartan smart enough or willing to fight the Persians in the gap. As for the legend aspect, Zhuge has as much, if not more if we're to base it on books and movies and tales, in that area that we are not exposed to as Westerners.
Point taken. It had nothing to do with Larry, though. In the few spots that I've made changes it's because of inconsistencies on my part. Larry argued that I was writing too much of Leonidus story as myth, so I asked Ozymandius for his opinion. I'm trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. thatguy asked me to read extensive material on both Chanakya and Nostradamus, which I did, but that did not change my mind in either case. I started off with Leonidus too low based upon my own criteria.
 
Here's my point total so far, though with the poor math skills I displayed earlier it might need to be checkedHokusai 13Welles 18Dostoeyevsky 18Sophocles 16Marshall 6Urban XII 5da Gama 18Augustus 21Zhuge 10Cousteau 11Cicero 12 Total 138Tim I think you did a good job overall on wildcards, though like everyone I think you were a little light by a few ppoints on some guys and some guys are too high. No real complaints there for a very difficult task. However your capitulating to Larry's whining is a little disturbing. You let him talk you into a 5 for Hogan in the GAD (10 pt scale IIRC) and now you've let him more than double his score because of his patented "so and so was WAY more important than..." or "so and so did WAY more than..." I understand that you used the category judge to help out but I sent you a PM from the explorer's category judge that would rank Cousteau higher than the 11 he got, pointing to the usefulness of the sea vs space. Is Leonidas really worth a 20% change from your research? Although it may have ended differently ahd it not been him, I sincerely doubt he was the only Spartan smart enough or willing to fight the Persians in the gap. As for the legend aspect, Zhuge has as much, if not more if we're to base it on books and movies and tales, in that area that we are not exposed to as Westerners.
Leonidas was the King of Sparta when that battle happened... That's why he led the soldiers...by your logic used here, we could say that every military general could have done what they did given the resources and manpower under them...
Not necessarily what I am saying at all, but you're the one with the emphatic No Leonidas=No Thermopylae=Persian victory and therefore no Western Culture, or something to that effect. I disagree with that causality that Leonidas was the only one that could've stopped it.
 
Here's my point total so far, though with the poor math skills I displayed earlier it might need to be checked

Hokusai 13

Welles 18

Dostoeyevsky 18

Sophocles 16

Marshall 6

Urban XII 5

da Gama 18

Augustus 21

Zhuge 10

Cousteau 11

Cicero 12

Total 138
:thumbdown: Wait - what?At any rate, here's what I got for ya, Sweeney.

Leader Augustus Caesar - 1st (20)

Military George Marshall – 15th (6)

Discoverer/Explorer Vasco De Gama – 3rd (18)

Novelist/short story Fyodor Dostoyevsky – 3rd (18)

Playwright/Poet Sophocles – 5th (16)

Athlete Michael Phelps – 11th (10)

Painter Katsushika Hokusai – 9th (12)

Artist/ Non Painter Orson Welles – 3rd (18)

Philosopher Jean-Jacques Rosseau – 12th (9)

Religious Figure Pope Urban II – 16th (5)

Wildcard Jacques Cousteau (11)

Wildcard Cicero (12)

Wildcard Zhuge Liang (10)

Total: 165

 
Burke is waaaay too high in the WCs. Any British person off the street could name 100 people more consequential in the history of British Govt. he was head of the minority wing of the minority party - not even as important as Goldwater here. his treatise on beauty & sublimity is more significant than any of his political writing (little of which is read by the neocons who cite him today). a facile rhetorician @ a volatile intersection of history - if his contemporary Wm Godwin had been suddenly embraced by liberals i would have a similar opinion of his consequence. Gingrich wont be drafted in the WGD of FFA2209 & Burke shouldnt have been here.

 
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Here's my point total so far, though with the poor math skills I displayed earlier it might need to be checked

Hokusai 13

Welles 18

Dostoeyevsky 18

Sophocles 16

Marshall 6

Urban XII 5

da Gama 18

Augustus 21

Zhuge 10

Cousteau 11

Cicero 12

Total 138
:thumbdown: Wait - what?At any rate, here's what I got for ya, Sweeney.

Leader Augustus Caesar - 1st (20)

Military George Marshall – 15th (6)

Discoverer/Explorer Vasco De Gama – 3rd (18)

Novelist/short story Fyodor Dostoyevsky – 3rd (18)

Playwright/Poet Sophocles – 5th (16)

Athlete Michael Phelps – 11th (10)

Painter Katsushika Hokusai – 9th (12)

Artist/ Non Painter Orson Welles – 3rd (18)

Philosopher Jean-Jacques Rosseau – 12th (9)

Religious Figure Pope Urban II – 16th (5)

Wildcard Jacques Cousteau (11)

Wildcard Cicero (12)

Wildcard Zhuge Liang (10)

Total: 165
Thanks, I forgot Phelps and didn't know if the Philosophers was set enough to include him.eta: I'm also only half paying attention while I type because of Stanley Cup playoffs. As much as I eat and breathe football, unless Seattle is playing, no sporting event is better than NHL playoffs.

 
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Burke is waaaay too high in the WCs. Any British person off the street could name 100 people more consequential in the history of British Govt. he was head of the minority wing of the minority party - not even as important as Goldwater here. his treatise on beauty & sublimity is more significant than any of his political writing (little of which is read by the neocons who cite him today). a facile rhetorician @ a volatile intersection of history - if his contemporary Wm Godwin had been suddenly embraced by liberals i would have a similar opinion of his consequence. Gingrich wont be drafted in the WGD of FFA2209 & Burke shouldnt have been here.
:thumbdown: Also, do you come back tomorrow?
 
Here's my point total so far, though with the poor math skills I displayed earlier it might need to be checkedHokusai 13Welles 18Dostoeyevsky 18Sophocles 16Marshall 6Urban XII 5da Gama 18Augustus 21Zhuge 10Cousteau 11Cicero 12 Total 138Tim I think you did a good job overall on wildcards, though like everyone I think you were a little light by a few ppoints on some guys and some guys are too high. No real complaints there for a very difficult task. However your capitulating to Larry's whining is a little disturbing. You let him talk you into a 5 for Hogan in the GAD (10 pt scale IIRC) and now you've let him more than double his score because of his patented "so and so was WAY more important than..." or "so and so did WAY more than..." I understand that you used the category judge to help out but I sent you a PM from the explorer's category judge that would rank Cousteau higher than the 11 he got, pointing to the usefulness of the sea vs space. Is Leonidas really worth a 20% change from your research? Although it may have ended differently ahd it not been him, I sincerely doubt he was the only Spartan smart enough or willing to fight the Persians in the gap. As for the legend aspect, Zhuge has as much, if not more if we're to base it on books and movies and tales, in that area that we are not exposed to as Westerners.
Leonidas was the King of Sparta when that battle happened... That's why he led the soldiers...by your logic used here, we could say that every military general could have done what they did given the resources and manpower under them...
Not necessarily what I am saying at all, but you're the one with the emphatic No Leonidas=No Thermopylae=Persian victory and therefore no Western Culture, or something to that effect. I disagree with that causality that Leonidas was the only one that could've stopped it.
I was arguing that he deserved more than 3 points with that... lolwas it hyperbole? Probably...but I was aiming for like a 7-10 from a 3 lol, and hyperbole worked... It got him a ranking closer to where I feel he deserves to be ranked...
 
Burke is waaaay too high in the WCs. Any British person off the street could name 100 people more consequential in the history of British Govt. he was head of the minority wing of the minority party - not even as important as Goldwater here. his treatise on beauty & sublimity is more significant than any of his political writing (little of which is read by the neocons who cite him today). a facile rhetorician @ a volatile intersection of history - if his contemporary Wm Godwin had been suddenly embraced by liberals i would have a similar opinion of his consequence. Gingrich wont be drafted in the WGD of FFA2209 & Burke shouldnt have been here.
:thumbdown: Also, do you come back tomorrow?
dont laugh at my buddy - he's prone to flashbacks.
 
Burke is waaaay too high in the WCs. Any British person off the street could name 100 people more consequential in the history of British Govt. he was head of the minority wing of the minority party - not even as important as Goldwater here. his treatise on beauty & sublimity is more significant than any of his political writing (little of which is read by the neocons who cite him today). a facile rhetorician @ a volatile intersection of history - if his contemporary Wm Godwin had been suddenly embraced by liberals i would have a similar opinion of his consequence. Gingrich wont be drafted in the WGD of FFA2209 & Burke shouldnt have been here.
This is funny. Yankee would place Burke in the first tier, above Spinoza, and you don't think he should have even been drafted.But I like Burke where he is. This section of Wiki fascinated me:

The historian Piers Brendon asserts that Burke laid the moral foundations for the British Empire, epitomised in the trial of Warren Hastings, that was ultimately to be its undoing: when Burke stated that "The British Empire must be governed on a plan of freedom, for it will be governed by no other",[88] this was "an idealogical bacillus that would prove fatal. This was Edmund Burke's paternalistic doctrine that colonial government was a trust. It was to be so exercised for the benefit of subject people that they would eventually attain their birthright - freedom".[89] As a consequence of this opinion, Burke objected to the opium trade, which he called a "smuggling adventure" and condemned "the great Disgrace of the British character in India".[

I think there's a lot of truth to this. Much like the American South prior to the Civil War, England in the 19th Century had a contradiction: it's treatment of the colonials under it's power did not jibe with it's moral principles about human freedom. Burke was the first one to recognize this, and his life takes on an added importance because of it. I think I nailed where Burke belongs. I hope.

 
wikkidpissah said:
BobbyLayne said:
Funcooker said:
Burke is waaaay too high in the WCs. Any British person off the street could name 100 people more consequential in the history of British Govt. he was head of the minority wing of the minority party - not even as important as Goldwater here. his treatise on beauty & sublimity is more significant than any of his political writing (little of which is read by the neocons who cite him today). a facile rhetorician @ a volatile intersection of history - if his contemporary Wm Godwin had been suddenly embraced by liberals i would have a similar opinion of his consequence. Gingrich wont be drafted in the WGD of FFA2209 & Burke shouldnt have been here.
:yes: Also, do you come back tomorrow?
dont laugh at my buddy - he's prone to flashbacks.
:thumbup: Actually I wasn't laughing at him, just the predictable nature of the response.Yankee v. Wikkid was a classic idealogical battle.Good to have you back, we could have used a little more sardonic wit in this one.
 
larry_boy_44 said:
I was arguing that he deserved more than 3 points with that... lolwas it hyperbole? Probably...but I was aiming for like a 7-10 from a 3 lol, and hyperbole worked... It got him a ranking closer to where I feel he deserves to be ranked...
The "hyperbole" did not work. Neither did any of your arguments. Only that I wasn't sure I was correct about how much of it was legend.
 
Gigantomachia said:
timschochet said:
Wow, GG. Socrates 19??? And I remember when Larry took King Solomon, you told him it was a good pick! Good enough for one point, I guess. What gives with that?
I will explain the Socrates pick as well.
You better, mofo. :thumbup:
 
wikkidpissah said:
BobbyLayne said:
Funcooker said:
Burke is waaaay too high in the WCs. Any British person off the street could name 100 people more consequential in the history of British Govt. he was head of the minority wing of the minority party - not even as important as Goldwater here. his treatise on beauty & sublimity is more significant than any of his political writing (little of which is read by the neocons who cite him today). a facile rhetorician @ a volatile intersection of history - if his contemporary Wm Godwin had been suddenly embraced by liberals i would have a similar opinion of his consequence. Gingrich wont be drafted in the WGD of FFA2209 & Burke shouldnt have been here.
:yes: Also, do you come back tomorrow?
dont laugh at my buddy - he's prone to flashbacks.
:thumbup: Actually I wasn't laughing at him, just the predictable nature of the response.Yankee v. Wikkid was a classic idealogical battle.Good to have you back, we could have used a little more sardonic wit in this one.
i'm just glad YF didnt take Adam Smith @ 1.05 when i was without the capacity to comment. the only other times i've smiled at the mention of Hitler had to do with Mel Brooks
 
timschochet said:
Funcooker said:
Burke is waaaay too high in the WCs. Any British person off the street could name 100 people more consequential in the history of British Govt. he was head of the minority wing of the minority party - not even as important as Goldwater here. his treatise on beauty & sublimity is more significant than any of his political writing (little of which is read by the neocons who cite him today). a facile rhetorician @ a volatile intersection of history - if his contemporary Wm Godwin had been suddenly embraced by liberals i would have a similar opinion of his consequence. Gingrich wont be drafted in the WGD of FFA2209 & Burke shouldnt have been here.
This is funny. Yankee would place Burke in the first tier, above Spinoza, and you don't think he should have even been drafted.But I like Burke where he is. This section of Wiki fascinated me:

The historian Piers Brendon asserts that Burke laid the moral foundations for the British Empire, epitomised in the trial of Warren Hastings, that was ultimately to be its undoing: when Burke stated that "The British Empire must be governed on a plan of freedom, for it will be governed by no other",[88] this was "an idealogical bacillus that would prove fatal. This was Edmund Burke's paternalistic doctrine that colonial government was a trust. It was to be so exercised for the benefit of subject people that they would eventually attain their birthright - freedom".[89] As a consequence of this opinion, Burke objected to the opium trade, which he called a "smuggling adventure" and condemned "the great Disgrace of the British character in India".[

I think there's a lot of truth to this. Much like the American South prior to the Civil War, England in the 19th Century had a contradiction: it's treatment of the colonials under it's power did not jibe with it's moral principles about human freedom. Burke was the first one to recognize this, and his life takes on an added importance because of it. I think I nailed where Burke belongs. I hope.
gee - tim embracing a darling of junkfood revisionism. whodathunkit?
 
timschochet said:
Funcooker said:
Burke is waaaay too high in the WCs. Any British person off the street could name 100 people more consequential in the history of British Govt. he was head of the minority wing of the minority party - not even as important as Goldwater here. his treatise on beauty & sublimity is more significant than any of his political writing (little of which is read by the neocons who cite him today). a facile rhetorician @ a volatile intersection of history - if his contemporary Wm Godwin had been suddenly embraced by liberals i would have a similar opinion of his consequence. Gingrich wont be drafted in the WGD of FFA2209 & Burke shouldnt have been here.
This is funny. Yankee would place Burke in the first tier, above Spinoza, and you don't think he should have even been drafted.But I like Burke where he is. This section of Wiki fascinated me:

The historian Piers Brendon asserts that Burke laid the moral foundations for the British Empire, epitomised in the trial of Warren Hastings, that was ultimately to be its undoing: when Burke stated that "The British Empire must be governed on a plan of freedom, for it will be governed by no other",[88] this was "an idealogical bacillus that would prove fatal. This was Edmund Burke's paternalistic doctrine that colonial government was a trust. It was to be so exercised for the benefit of subject people that they would eventually attain their birthright - freedom".[89] As a consequence of this opinion, Burke objected to the opium trade, which he called a "smuggling adventure" and condemned "the great Disgrace of the British character in India".[

I think there's a lot of truth to this. Much like the American South prior to the Civil War, England in the 19th Century had a contradiction: it's treatment of the colonials under it's power did not jibe with it's moral principles about human freedom. Burke was the first one to recognize this, and his life takes on an added importance because of it. I think I nailed where Burke belongs. I hope.
gee - tim embracing a darling of junkfood revisionism. whodathunkit?
Did you even bother to read what I wrote? It had nothing to do with the "father of Conservatism" or neocons or anything like that. And while the junkfood accusation is fine, (I think you're referring to Ayn Rand) you'd better provide one example of me embracing revisionism of any kind.

 
Mario Kart said:
I don't care what the judges say... my score at the end is going to be 440.
:thumbdown: Realistic expectations from 1.01 onward. :thumbup:
One thing you have to say about Mario. He doesn't read the tea leaves. He doesn't sense the future. He doesn't pick up what others are putting down. He sticks to his guns, even though they are pointing in the wrong direction, as the British at Singapore.He would have been better off with Sun Tzu as a wild card. I'd have given him a 12 there.
 
wikkidpissah said:
BobbyLayne said:
Funcooker said:
Burke is waaaay too high in the WCs. Any British person off the street could name 100 people more consequential in the history of British Govt. he was head of the minority wing of the minority party - not even as important as Goldwater here. his treatise on beauty & sublimity is more significant than any of his political writing (little of which is read by the neocons who cite him today). a facile rhetorician @ a volatile intersection of history - if his contemporary Wm Godwin had been suddenly embraced by liberals i would have a similar opinion of his consequence. Gingrich wont be drafted in the WGD of FFA2209 & Burke shouldnt have been here.
:thumbup: Also, do you come back tomorrow?
dont laugh at my buddy - he's prone to flashbacks.
:thumbdown: Actually I wasn't laughing at him, just the predictable nature of the response.Yankee v. Wikkid was a classic idealogical battle.Good to have you back, we could have used a little more sardonic wit in this one.
i'm just glad YF didnt take Adam Smith @ 1.05 when i was without the capacity to comment. the only other times i've smiled at the mention of Hitler had to do with Mel Brooks
What is this supposed to mean?
 
A reminder of the judging criteria for the Musician/Performer category.

The criteria are listed in order of weightedness in determing the rankings.

1) Artistic expertice - the ability to emote with an instrument.

2) Technical mastery of one's instrument.

3) Innovativeness/importance in musical history

4) Popularity.

Note that these rankings were strictly based on the listed criteria as they apply to musicianship, not to song-writing, nor to talent/innovation in the recording process.

1) Franz Liszt

2) Jascha Heifetz

3) Enrico Caruso

4) Luciano Pavarotti

5) Art Tatum

6) Louis Armstrong

7) Yo Yo Ma

8) Frank Sinatra

9) Miles Davis

10) The Beatles

11) B.B. King

12) John McLaughlin

13) Frank Zappa

14) Led Zeppelin

15) Queen

16) Pink Floyd

17) The Grateful Dead

18) The Rolling Stones

19) Elton John

20) U2

These rankings are subject to change if sufficient arguments can be made to do so . . .

UH

:thumbdown:

 
Team Thorn

Leader - Peter the Great - 6th - (15 pts)

Military - Gustavus Adolphus - 10th - (11pts)

Scientist/Mathematitian - Euclid

Inventor - Alexander Graham Bell

Discoverer/Explorer - Christopher Columbus - 1st - (20pts)

Humanitarian/Saint/Martyr - Maurice Pate (USA) -

Novelist/short story - James Joyce - 1st - (20pts)

Playwright/Poet - Petrarch - 15 - (6pts)

Villain - Slobodan Milosevic

Athlete - Wayne Gretzky - 7th - (14pts)

Composer - Johann Strauss

Muscian/ Performer - Frank Sinatra (USA) -

Painter - Pierre-August Renoir - 13th - (8 pts)

Artist/ Non Painter - Lorenzo Gheberti - 13th - (8pts)

Philosopher - Fredriech Nietzsche - 3rd - (18pts)

Religious Figure - St. Paul - 4th - (17pts)

Celebrity - John F. Kennedy (USA)

Intellectual - William Blackstone

Rebel - Mikhail Gorbachev

Wildcard - Oliver Cromwell - 5 - (16pts)

Wildcard - ShakA Zulu - 8 - (13pts)

Wildcard - Antonie von Leeuwenhoek - 4 - (17pts)

183 points after 13 rounds of judging; 14 avg pts per round

Wildcards actually helped :thumbdown:

 
MisfitBlondes said:
I'll have the preliminary Composers rankings up about 2 hrs from now. :shrug:
I hope your #1 ranking doesn't go to some guy whistled really well, but never wrote anything down. Everyone agrees, however, that he was really a good whistler.
 
A reminder of the judging criteria for the Musician/Performer category.

The criteria are listed in order of weightedness in determing the rankings.

1) Artistic expertice - the ability to emote with an instrument.

2) Technical mastery of one's instrument.

3) Innovativeness/importance in musical history

4) Popularity.

Note that these rankings were strictly based on the listed criteria as they apply to musicianship, not to song-writing, nor to talent/innovation in the recording process.

1) Franz Liszt

2) Jascha Heifetz

3) Enrico Caruso

4) Luciano Pavarotti

5) Art Tatum

6) Louis Armstrong

7) Yo Yo Ma

8) Frank Sinatra

9) Miles Davis

10) The Beatles

11) B.B. King

12) John McLaughlin

13) Frank Zappa

14) Led Zeppelin

15) Queen

16) Pink Floyd

17) The Grateful Dead

18) The Rolling Stones

19) Elton John

20) U2

These rankings are subject to change if sufficient arguments can be made to do so . . .

UH

:shrug:
Wow.
 
MisfitBlondes said:
MisfitBlondes said:
I'll have the preliminary Composers rankings up about 2 hrs from now. :shrug:
I hope your #1 ranking doesn't go to some guy whistled really well, but never wrote anything down. Everyone agrees, however, that he was really a good whistler.
I really hope you come up with a better argument than "I lived in 10 countries and played a few sports" to justify yourself when you decide to rip apart my rankings. :crazy:
As long as you don't name the whistler, I promise not to rip apart. :D
 
timschochet said:
Funcooker said:
Burke is waaaay too high in the WCs. Any British person off the street could name 100 people more consequential in the history of British Govt. he was head of the minority wing of the minority party - not even as important as Goldwater here. his treatise on beauty & sublimity is more significant than any of his political writing (little of which is read by the neocons who cite him today). a facile rhetorician @ a volatile intersection of history - if his contemporary Wm Godwin had been suddenly embraced by liberals i would have a similar opinion of his consequence. Gingrich wont be drafted in the WGD of FFA2209 & Burke shouldnt have been here.
This is funny. Yankee would place Burke in the first tier, above Spinoza, and you don't think he should have even been drafted.But I like Burke where he is. This section of Wiki fascinated me:

The historian Piers Brendon asserts that Burke laid the moral foundations for the British Empire, epitomised in the trial of Warren Hastings, that was ultimately to be its undoing: when Burke stated that "The British Empire must be governed on a plan of freedom, for it will be governed by no other",[88] this was "an idealogical bacillus that would prove fatal. This was Edmund Burke's paternalistic doctrine that colonial government was a trust. It was to be so exercised for the benefit of subject people that they would eventually attain their birthright - freedom".[89] As a consequence of this opinion, Burke objected to the opium trade, which he called a "smuggling adventure" and condemned "the great Disgrace of the British character in India".[

I think there's a lot of truth to this. Much like the American South prior to the Civil War, England in the 19th Century had a contradiction: it's treatment of the colonials under it's power did not jibe with it's moral principles about human freedom. Burke was the first one to recognize this, and his life takes on an added importance because of it. I think I nailed where Burke belongs. I hope.
gee - tim embracing a darling of junkfood revisionism. whodathunkit?
Did you even bother to read what I wrote? It had nothing to do with the "father of Conservatism" or neocons or anything like that. And while the junkfood accusation is fine, (I think you're referring to Ayn Rand) you'd better provide one example of me embracing revisionism of any kind.
since it would be impolite to point out that that's an odd challenge from one who revises his own outlook in mid-paragraph, i'll restate my assertion that the revision lies in the consequence alotted to a minor figure like Burke by those who need a link in the Tory chain that doesnt exist in order to give historical grounding to fringe philosophies.
 
A reminder of the judging criteria for the Musician/Performer category.

The criteria are listed in order of weightedness in determing the rankings.

1) Artistic expertice - the ability to emote with an instrument.

2) Technical mastery of one's instrument.

3) Innovativeness/importance in musical history

4) Popularity.

Note that these rankings were strictly based on the listed criteria as they apply to musicianship, not to song-writing, nor to talent/innovation in the recording process.

1) Franz Liszt

2) Jascha Heifetz

3) Enrico Caruso

4) Luciano Pavarotti

5) Art Tatum

6) Louis Armstrong

7) Yo Yo Ma

8) Frank Sinatra

9) Miles Davis

10) The Beatles

11) B.B. King

12) John McLaughlin

13) Frank Zappa

14) Led Zeppelin

15) Queen

16) Pink Floyd

17) The Grateful Dead

18) The Rolling Stones

19) Elton John

20) U2

These rankings are subject to change if sufficient arguments can be made to do so . . .

UH

:shrug:
The 1) next to Franz Liszt...is that one point or you ranked him 1st?
 
A reminder of the judging criteria for the Musician/Performer category.

The criteria are listed in order of weightedness in determing the rankings.

1) Artistic expertice - the ability to emote with an instrument.

2) Technical mastery of one's instrument.

3) Innovativeness/importance in musical history

4) Popularity.

Note that these rankings were strictly based on the listed criteria as they apply to musicianship, not to song-writing, nor to talent/innovation in the recording process.

1) Franz Liszt

2) Jascha Heifetz

3) Enrico Caruso

4) Luciano Pavarotti

5) Art Tatum

6) Louis Armstrong

7) Yo Yo Ma

8) Frank Sinatra

9) Miles Davis

10) The Beatles

11) B.B. King

12) John McLaughlin

13) Frank Zappa

14) Led Zeppelin

15) Queen

16) Pink Floyd

17) The Grateful Dead

18) The Rolling Stones

19) Elton John

20) U2

These rankings are subject to change if sufficient arguments can be made to do so . . .

UH

:confused:
The 1) next to Franz Liszt...is that one point or you ranked him 1st?
Ranked 1st - regarded by many as the greatest pianist of all time.
 
since it would be impolite to point out that that's an odd challenge from one who revises his own outlook in mid-paragraph, i'll restate my assertion that the revision lies in the consequence alotted to a minor figure like Burke by those who need a link in the Tory chain that doesnt exist in order to give historical grounding to fringe philosophies.
:confused: I revise myself all the time. But I don't read "revisionist" history. What I pointed out interested me about Burke had nothing whatsoever to do with what you're talking about. Burke was England's intepreter of the Enlightenment. His writings paved the way for the guilt the British would feel over Ireland, India, and the other colonies, and it would finally result in their eventual surrender. Burke was the British conscience.
 
A reminder of the judging criteria for the Musician/Performer category.

The criteria are listed in order of weightedness in determing the rankings.

1) Artistic expertice - the ability to emote with an instrument.

2) Technical mastery of one's instrument.

3) Innovativeness/importance in musical history

4) Popularity.

Note that these rankings were strictly based on the listed criteria as they apply to musicianship, not to song-writing, nor to talent/innovation in the recording process.

1) Franz Liszt

2) Jascha Heifetz

3) Enrico Caruso

4) Luciano Pavarotti

5) Art Tatum

6) Louis Armstrong

7) Yo Yo Ma

8) Frank Sinatra

9) Miles Davis

10) The Beatles

11) B.B. King

12) John McLaughlin

13) Frank Zappa

14) Led Zeppelin

15) Queen

16) Pink Floyd

17) The Grateful Dead

18) The Rolling Stones

19) Elton John

20) U2

These rankings are subject to change if sufficient arguments can be made to do so . . .

UH

:confused:
The 1) next to Franz Liszt...is that one point or you ranked him 1st?
Ranked 1st - regarded by many as the greatest pianist of all time.
I wasn't in need of an introduction. It's just unclear from the remainder of the list which end is up.OK, thanks for ranking Caruso properly. I'm going to slip on this plastic raingear and watch the remainder of the discussion from off to one side.

 
A reminder of the judging criteria for the Musician/Performer category.

The criteria are listed in order of weightedness in determing the rankings.

1) Artistic expertice - the ability to emote with an instrument.

2) Technical mastery of one's instrument.

3) Innovativeness/importance in musical history

4) Popularity.

Note that these rankings were strictly based on the listed criteria as they apply to musicianship, not to song-writing, nor to talent/innovation in the recording process.

1) Franz Liszt

2) Jascha Heifetz

3) Enrico Caruso

4) Luciano Pavarotti

5) Art Tatum

6) Louis Armstrong

7) Yo Yo Ma

8) Frank Sinatra

9) Miles Davis

10) The Beatles

11) B.B. King

12) John McLaughlin

13) Frank Zappa

14) Led Zeppelin

15) Queen

16) Pink Floyd

17) The Grateful Dead

18) The Rolling Stones

19) Elton John

20) U2

These rankings are subject to change if sufficient arguments can be made to do so . . .

UH

:confused:
:shrug:
 
Well, one quick question while everybody gets up off the floor...I was debating Niccolò Paganini...where do feel he would have ranked?

 
A reminder of the judging criteria for the Musician/Performer category.

The criteria are listed in order of weightedness in determing the rankings.

1) Artistic expertice - the ability to emote with an instrument.

2) Technical mastery of one's instrument.

3) Innovativeness/importance in musical history

4) Popularity.

Note that these rankings were strictly based on the listed criteria as they apply to musicianship, not to song-writing, nor to talent/innovation in the recording process.

1) Franz Liszt

2) Jascha Heifetz

3) Enrico Caruso

4) Luciano Pavarotti

5) Art Tatum

6) Louis Armstrong

7) Yo Yo Ma

8) Frank Sinatra

9) Miles Davis

10) The Beatles

11) B.B. King

12) John McLaughlin

13) Frank Zappa

14) Led Zeppelin

15) Queen

16) Pink Floyd

17) The Grateful Dead

18) The Rolling Stones

19) Elton John

20) U2

These rankings are subject to change if sufficient arguments can be made to do so . . .

UH

:confused:
I think the only rational explanation here is that the good Uncle was assigning points rather than ranking them in order.Or he's stoned off his ####### ###.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
A reminder of the judging criteria for the Musician/Performer category.

The criteria are listed in order of weightedness in determing the rankings.

1) Artistic expertice - the ability to emote with an instrument.

2) Technical mastery of one's instrument.

3) Innovativeness/importance in musical history

4) Popularity.

Note that these rankings were strictly based on the listed criteria as they apply to musicianship, not to song-writing, nor to talent/innovation in the recording process.

1) Franz Liszt

2) Jascha Heifetz

3) Enrico Caruso

4) Luciano Pavarotti

5) Art Tatum

6) Louis Armstrong

7) Yo Yo Ma

8) Frank Sinatra

9) Miles Davis

10) The Beatles

11) B.B. King

12) John McLaughlin

13) Frank Zappa

14) Led Zeppelin

15) Queen

16) Pink Floyd

17) The Grateful Dead

18) The Rolling Stones

19) Elton John

20) U2

These rankings are subject to change if sufficient arguments can be made to do so . . .

UH

:shrug:
First of all: take that, Beatles! :lmao: Second, I think the rankings are remarkably consistent, given Unc's criteria. Frank above Miles bugs me, but it's not a big deal. Also, the reactions so far are hilarious.

Third, I'd love to see how the list would be rearranged if UH was asked to order them by personal preference. :confused:

 
A reminder of the judging criteria for the Musician/Performer category.

The criteria are listed in order of weightedness in determing the rankings.

1) Artistic expertice - the ability to emote with an instrument.

2) Technical mastery of one's instrument.

3) Innovativeness/importance in musical history

4) Popularity.

Note that these rankings were strictly based on the listed criteria as they apply to musicianship, not to song-writing, nor to talent/innovation in the recording process.

1) Franz Liszt

2) Jascha Heifetz

3) Enrico Caruso

4) Luciano Pavarotti

5) Art Tatum

6) Louis Armstrong

7) Yo Yo Ma

8) Frank Sinatra

9) Miles Davis

10) The Beatles

11) B.B. King

12) John McLaughlin

13) Frank Zappa

14) Led Zeppelin

15) Queen

16) Pink Floyd

17) The Grateful Dead

18) The Rolling Stones

19) Elton John

20) U2

These rankings are subject to change if sufficient arguments can be made to do so . . .

UH

:confused:
I think the only rational explanation here is that the good Uncle was assigning points rather than ranking them in order.Or he's stoned off his ####### ###.
the explanation is that he has no respect for rock music and considers it inferior to all other forms of music........It isn't hard to figure out.

He's completely, 100% wrong in every imaginable way... But it isn't hard to figure out that that is what he thinks (and why his rankings are the way they are)

 
A reminder of the judging criteria for the Musician/Performer category.

The criteria are listed in order of weightedness in determing the rankings.

1) Artistic expertice - the ability to emote with an instrument.

2) Technical mastery of one's instrument.

3) Innovativeness/importance in musical history

4) Popularity.

Note that these rankings were strictly based on the listed criteria as they apply to musicianship, not to song-writing, nor to talent/innovation in the recording process.

1) Franz Liszt

2) Jascha Heifetz

3) Enrico Caruso

4) Luciano Pavarotti

5) Art Tatum

6) Louis Armstrong

7) Yo Yo Ma

8) Frank Sinatra

9) Miles Davis

10) The Beatles

11) B.B. King

12) John McLaughlin

13) Frank Zappa

14) Led Zeppelin

15) Queen

16) Pink Floyd

17) The Grateful Dead

18) The Rolling Stones

19) Elton John

20) U2

These rankings are subject to change if sufficient arguments can be made to do so . . .

UH

:banned:
First of all: take that, Beatles! :D Second, I think the rankings are remarkably consistent, given Unc's criteria. Frank above Miles bugs me, but it's not a big deal. Also, the reactions so far are hilarious.

Third, I'd love to see how the list would be rearranged if UH was asked to order them by personal preference. :popcorn:
The Miles ranking surprised me the most.
 
I think the only rational explanation here is that the good Uncle was assigning points rather than ranking them in order.Or he's stoned off his ####### ###.
I kept looking for the Beatles at 1 or 20 or nearby, but he totally knuckleballed them right into the middle.This should be fun. :popcorn:
 
A reminder of the judging criteria for the Musician/Performer category.

The criteria are listed in order of weightedness in determing the rankings.

1) Artistic expertice - the ability to emote with an instrument.

2) Technical mastery of one's instrument.

3) Innovativeness/importance in musical history

4) Popularity.

Note that these rankings were strictly based on the listed criteria as they apply to musicianship, not to song-writing, nor to talent/innovation in the recording process.

1) Franz Liszt

2) Jascha Heifetz

3) Enrico Caruso

4) Luciano Pavarotti

5) Art Tatum

6) Louis Armstrong

7) Yo Yo Ma

8) Frank Sinatra

9) Miles Davis

10) The Beatles

11) B.B. King

12) John McLaughlin

13) Frank Zappa

14) Led Zeppelin

15) Queen

16) Pink Floyd

17) The Grateful Dead

18) The Rolling Stones

19) Elton John

20) U2

These rankings are subject to change if sufficient arguments can be made to do so . . .

UH

:popcorn:
I think the only rational explanation here is that the good Uncle was assigning points rather than ranking them in order.Or he's stoned off his ####### ###.
the explanation is that he has no respect for rock music and considers it inferior to all other forms of music........
:banned: Wrong.
 
A reminder of the judging criteria for the Musician/Performer category.

The criteria are listed in order of weightedness in determing the rankings.

1) Artistic expertice - the ability to emote with an instrument.

2) Technical mastery of one's instrument.

3) Innovativeness/importance in musical history

4) Popularity.

Note that these rankings were strictly based on the listed criteria as they apply to musicianship, not to song-writing, nor to talent/innovation in the recording process.

1) Franz Liszt

2) Jascha Heifetz

3) Enrico Caruso

4) Luciano Pavarotti

5) Art Tatum

6) Louis Armstrong

7) Yo Yo Ma

8) Frank Sinatra

9) Miles Davis

10) The Beatles

11) B.B. King

12) John McLaughlin

13) Frank Zappa

14) Led Zeppelin

15) Queen

16) Pink Floyd

17) The Grateful Dead

18) The Rolling Stones

19) Elton John

20) U2

These rankings are subject to change if sufficient arguments can be made to do so . . .

UH

:popcorn:
Lizst would have been in an ever-alternating triad with Pavarotti & Satchmo at the top of my musician rankings (Beethoven would have been my #1 if he'd been picked as a performer). Franz was the first rockstar (Byron being the only other pre-20C figure to provoke that kind of attention). It may have been early recording techniques, but Caruso & Heifetz dont hold up as well to me as well as Pavarotti and, say, Stern. glad to see soloists ranked above bands - curious to know where Hendrix would have been ranked if he'd been picked. Tatum was juuuust right. well done -
 
A reminder of the judging criteria for the Musician/Performer category.

The criteria are listed in order of weightedness in determing the rankings.

1) Artistic expertice - the ability to emote with an instrument.

2) Technical mastery of one's instrument.

3) Innovativeness/importance in musical history

4) Popularity.

Note that these rankings were strictly based on the listed criteria as they apply to musicianship, not to song-writing, nor to talent/innovation in the recording process.

1) Franz Liszt

2) Jascha Heifetz

3) Enrico Caruso

4) Luciano Pavarotti

5) Art Tatum

6) Louis Armstrong

7) Yo Yo Ma

8) Frank Sinatra

9) Miles Davis

10) The Beatles

11) B.B. King

12) John McLaughlin

13) Frank Zappa

14) Led Zeppelin

15) Queen

16) Pink Floyd

17) The Grateful Dead

18) The Rolling Stones

19) Elton John

20) U2

These rankings are subject to change if sufficient arguments can be made to do so . . .

UH

:popcorn:
I think the only rational explanation here is that the good Uncle was assigning points rather than ranking them in order.Or he's stoned off his ####### ###.
the explanation is that he has no respect for rock music and considers it inferior to all other forms of music........
:banned: Wrong.
on an artistic level, yes... He does...He considers playing rock music inferior to playing other styles of music and he makes it clear with his ranking...

 

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