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WR Brandin Cooks, Free Agent (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter lardonastick
- Start date
tone1oc
Footballguy
Specifically citing things he is or isn't doing that is contributing to him being a non factor is not hate. I don't see any ad hominem's or unsubstantiated posts going on.
Perhaps you are being an over defensive owner?
His dynasty value offers some hope, I'd sell now while you can. Cordarralle Patterson was netting a nice return in dynasty a year ago, so I think there's hope you can get a nice return on your investment while cutting bait for a player who looks like he can play WR in the NFL.
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Gandalf
Footballguy
It's the tone and vitriol of people's posts that I'm referring to. Read the posts and it's like... He's short, can't get open, doesn't do anything after the catch (he got clocked after the catch on Thursday night by the way), Brees isn't looking at him, etc. All I'm saying is that I get it, people are frustrated but there is a fair amount of hyperbole going on here after five games where his team lost a stud offensive TE, his QB was injured and Cooks himself had (has) an ankle injury. After last season people were saying that Cooks was a borderline WR1. Now he is Cordarelle Patterson. The truth is probably somewhere in between if the Saints can figure out how to use him properly.Oh and I'm not being defensive, just pointing out this is exactly what happens when people sell low. Word of caution. I own Cooks but he's super cheap on my roster so I can live with him taking up a bench spot on my roster.
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tone1oc
Footballguy
I said most of those things and not even an owner, I promise. But how is that hate or vitriolic? They are absolutely true.
If the Saints have to figure out how to use him he is definitely not the WR1 he was expected to be.
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Gandalf
Footballguy
Well how is that different from last season? Maybe you always were low on him. Reading these threads one would wonder if we are talking about some dude headed for the practice squad. So last season he was an electric WR good enough to garner a high WR2 ranking and now he sucks. It's inconsistent. Something other than 'Cooks just sucks' is going on. Players go through slumps. Take Brady over the first four weeks of last season. Many owners sold low. How'd that work out for them???
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tone1oc
Footballguy
The more sample we see, I think its clearer that he can't do either. The injury last year was a big reason a lot of people didn't see his warts as a WR as he was allowed to run free as the 3rd or 4th player defenses were paying attention to. That is the big difference between last year and this year.
There were many very smart fantasy people who didn't see him as a true #1 WR (on saints) and more in line with a boom/bust WR3 for fantasy purposes.
If you want to chalk it up to bad luck or a slump then that is your prerogative, but I'm calling it like I see it, I have no axe to grind with him. Please don't marginalize fair critiques as blind hatred or vitriol.
So annoying that such a big portion of discussion on the SP is bickering about the legitimacy of someone's take based on if they own someone or not. Wouldn't it be much more valueable for you to describe the things you saw last season that made you believe he was a star and apply that to the new information we have been given.
You have to adapt your thinking IMO
There were many very smart fantasy people who didn't see him as a true #1 WR (on saints) and more in line with a boom/bust WR3 for fantasy purposes.
If you want to chalk it up to bad luck or a slump then that is your prerogative, but I'm calling it like I see it, I have no axe to grind with him. Please don't marginalize fair critiques as blind hatred or vitriol.
So annoying that such a big portion of discussion on the SP is bickering about the legitimacy of someone's take based on if they own someone or not. Wouldn't it be much more valueable for you to describe the things you saw last season that made you believe he was a star and apply that to the new information we have been given.
You have to adapt your thinking IMO
tone1oc
Footballguy
This is terrible. Being short in and of itself is not an issue. It's compounding though when you aren't able to beat the press or get open with route running.
AB/OBJ are some of the best route runners in football and have great hands, something that Cooks clearly isn't.
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Gandalf
Footballguy
I guess I hit a nerve. I apologize if you found my comment annoying or marginalizing. Really that wasn't my intent. My point was (is) there is so much frustration in this thread that it is - in my opinion - that this emotionalness is going to lead to people making a mistake and selling low. I mean Cooks hasn't done much and on redraft it probably time to cut bait. In dynasty he is probably a hold u less you can get WR2 value for him in a trade.
I will just post this instead of trying to explain his 2014 performance:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1TFc8fypMT0
tone1oc
Footballguy
Calmer than you are.. I love to talk football, I'm good man no need to apologize.
You haven't been able to quote emotional-ness or hatred or vitriol though. Just fair critiques that are true based on what is happening in 2015. Also, nobody said cut bait in dynasty or to sell him for anything you can get as you are implying.
I think you are clearly being defensive and twisting words or creating a false narrative in your own mind.
If you are asking, I'd absolutely trade him for a legit WR2 in dynasty. But like CPatt last season, there was a lot of holder on'ers that you may be able to get a 1st for him. I'm not mad at anyone that wants to hold or say that they are going to withhold their opinion until they/we see more.
The one thing he does have going for him is that he is young.
Gandalf
Footballguy
Dude. I'm not being defensive. Seriously. I'm just telling you I think people are overly negative on the guy. What the heck? How can I convince you of this? I am getting a little annoyed you keep saying this about me though. So what are people saying if not to cut bait? What are you saying? You just told me to sell now because he is Patterson.
tone1oc
Footballguy
1. Kick return
2. Draft announcement
3. A few serious death stares/slow mo builds
4. A seem route for TD without context where the defender was blanketing him and then fell down and he caught a dime that was dropped to him
5. A busted play where Brees throws into double coverage and he was able to jump ball it.
6. A simple out route where he doesn't beat the initial defender and is tackled right away.
7. A trick play where he was lined up in backfield and defense was caught with pants down.
8. A slant route where he was covered again, and able to make the catch after it initially bounced off his hand and he made a nice adjustment. No YAC.
9. A deep out which appears to be a nice route, but again no YAC
10. A 9 route where he got behind the defense, caught a very catchable ball. Again no YAC, but didn't matter it was caught in end zone.
11. End around play where defense was caught off guard, again no YAC
12. Inside slant pick play for TD
13. Another inside slant with no YAC, tackled short of goal line.
14. A deep cross where he falls down at the sight of contact, no YAC
15. And the last play we have a winner.. Ran a nice out route and made the initial defender miss on a nice cutback and the safety was out of position.
Absolutely none of that video outside the last play show me anything beyond what a replacement level talent given the targets could do in the NFL.
tone1oc
Footballguy
I said it once.
What I am saying is that he is a talented player that isn't a true WR, hence my CPatt comparison. Though perhaps that is not fair, but only because CPatt is far worse as a WR. I think the situations have similarities.
EDIT: I did say it twice, my apologies. But you kind of are though
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Gandalf
Footballguy
Okay how about Devonta Freeman then? Players do have ups and downs and my point is that reading this thread, I should be practically cutting the guy. And at the same time, I think he's more of a hold at this point because of the value he can get you. I doubt you get a WR2 back for him. Talking about dynasty league too.
Gandalf
Footballguy
He's quick and fast. Watching this video, it seems like Brees is not throwing downfield as much likely because defenses are focusing more on Cooks. I think the Saints need to find ways to use Cooks or maybe they are starting to go deep more as Brees gets healthy? There was one deep pass to Cooks last game which offered a glimmer of hope.
Penguin
Footballguy
Going forward, I'd put him that WR 20-30 range in PPR dynasties, He just doesn't seem to have that #1 un-coverable WR skill set that guys like Julio & AJ Green have. Cooks was a late 2nd/early 3rd in Dynasty startups this summer, I think perspective owners were too ambitious when thinking about his situation.
Gandalf
Footballguy
I agree with this. And if you need a WR2 and there is one you like better especially for this year I would make that trade.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Let me know when Cooks has consistent ups, because the guy has now played 16 NFL games and is averaging 56 receiving yards a game and a receiving touchdown every four games. No, that's not awful, but it sure isn't worth bragging about.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
There's no reason to cut Cooks in a dynasty league - this is only his second season. I'd probably shy away from trading him right now as well as his value is low. It could go lower of course, but I think the upside is still there and would rather sink with the ship then sell him off for a second rounder and watch him become a solid asset.
I own Cooks in 3 out of my 4 dynasty leagues and I'm certainly disappointed with him right now, and to be honest I fell like maybe I overrated him a bit from jump street, but I still see some things I like about him and do think that people start to give up on young WRs much too quickly now.
What I do disagree with is all the people pinning this on Peyton for not being creative and not find ways to get him in space. That sounds like a bunch of disgruntled fantasy owners that want their players to succed and are looking for excuses/reasons why they are not. If Cooks fails, then he's not up to the task. A coach can't redesign an offense totally in order to spring one player - and to be honest I have seen them use him in different ways from time to time. Right now he just isn't getting the separation he needs, but receivers. An learn to be better route runners - he does have the explosiveness to make things happen once he learns his craft a bit better.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I agree that Cooks is still a hold in dynasty leagues, but in redrafts, if you can get a good player in return for him, he is not. I traded him for John Brown last week, and while Cooks outscored Brown last week, I like Brown to be as productive as him the rest of the year, plus I like my team more now that Cooks is not on it. The weekly aggravation with him was making it not fun.
tone1oc
Footballguy
I seem to be one of the loudest critics at this point, but I completely agree with this point. I am in no way advocating a get anything you can approach. BUT if you can net a 2016 1st or a solid WR2 I'd absolutely hedge with him.
The one thing (okay maybe one of the few things) he has going for him is he is still young (22). Younger than a lot of rookie WRs.
My personal opinion is that though many of his warts can be theoretically fixed with experience and time, that the wait (how long would that be?) is not worth the risk that if it doesn't pan out. There are so many young exciting WRs around the league for me to wait on this guy who is still a project WR. I just don't see a path to him being a WR1, which is what I like with young WRs who aren't producing in my starting lineups.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
If you're talking fantasy WR1, well in a 12 man league there's only 12 of them so it's tough to have a roster filled with WR1s. If we're talking NFL WR1 while it's pointless to argue if he can or cant be when he really hasn't even played a full NFL season yet, even assuming he can't be that doesn't mean that he can't have fantasy value, since the second or even third option in many offenses have fantasy value.
tone1oc
Footballguy
Perhaps should of said high end WR2, and though there can only be 16-20ish of those it's fluid year to year and I want young guys who offer nothing to my starting lineup to have that potential. If they end up being WR3's I use them as such or move them.
You're right that is pointless to argue what he will be, it is just my opinion based on what I feel is a large enough sample that says he's not going to offer enough upside to wait on if I can get a return. He does hold fantasy value, I'd contend that it's still probably high enough to net a 1st rounder or a solid WR2 in dynasty.
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Gandalf
Footballguy
cstu
Footballguy
Milkman
Footballguy
Dude it's really bad logic.
Hey this guy won the lotto using the numbers he got off a fortune cookie note. You should totally do that!
Antonio Brown taking 3-4 years to turn into the best WR in the game doesn't raise Cooks chances of becoming the best WR in the game.
All it proves mentioning it is that it's not impossible. Which I don't think anybody is disputing that. We're just saying he doesn't look good now and his sample of average play gets bigger by the week. Which means his chances of being good/great are getting smaller by the week.
cstu
Footballguy
1. I never said he was going to become the best receiver in the game.
2. Cooks is a 1st round pick, not a late round long shot.
3. Cooks looks better at the start of his career than Brown did (Brown had zero TD's at this stage in his career).
4. Cooks is only 22.
4. Even Brown says Cooks reminds him of himself.
lod01
Footballguy
If you are talking John Brown, you are way off. Brown is 31 targets for 23-301/2 on a team that hasn't even had to play offense in the 2nd half of 2 games this year.
Milkman
Footballguy
You should target every WR that struggles for the first 2 or 3 years and lets us know how you do. lol
Kenny Powers
Footballguy
Well he's got another good matchup this week vs Indy in a game the Saints will probably be needing to play catch up in in the 2nd half.
Thinking of flexing him over Woodhead and Clay in non-PPR again
Thinking of flexing him over Woodhead and Clay in non-PPR again
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I am starting him in one league, but I have too. Cobb on a bye, Watkins out, Benjamin on IR. He is my 3rd with Smith Sr., and Hurns
cubbie5150
Footballguy
I'm benching him this week @ Indy, so he'll likely have his best real & fantasy game of the year. I just can't keep starting a guy who is consistently ignored the first 3 quarters of each game, getting targets mostly in garbage time. It puts too much pressure on him coming through during 2 or 3 possessions in any given game. I cried "Uncle" a couple weeks ago, acknowledging I terribly over-drafted him in two leagues.
ATB
Footballguy
Biggest knock on him is that the best defender is always shadowing Cooks. This week, it'll be Vontae Davis. Even stars struggle when pressed by the best defender on a team. Probably why we're not seeing the separation we expected.
But I'm still starting him. I just prefer to play potential than chase points off the WW.
But I'm still starting him. I just prefer to play potential than chase points off the WW.
I've started him from week 1 of last year and will continue to start him in our 3 WR league. He is not a WR1 as I wanted but he is a decent WR3. As for dynasty, I'd say he is a BUY candidate not just a hold. Still young, still fast, just need to temper expectations. Find your local disgruntled Cooks owner and build your dynasty on the cheap.
bb7278
Footballguy
I have both but may need to cut one after the 1pm games, they are auditioning this week.
Jack White
Footballguy
I have to start Snead this week, so I hope Vontae follows Cooks around.
Gottabesweet
Footballguy
Anyone buying? in Redraft?
I was offered Cooks for Martellus Bennett (flex)
I have Gronk so this would be who I like more ROS for my flex spot. PPR (bonus for 50 yard TD's)
Thoughts?
I was offered Cooks for Martellus Bennett (flex)
I have Gronk so this would be who I like more ROS for my flex spot. PPR (bonus for 50 yard TD's)
Thoughts?
(HULK)
(Smash)
Not owning Cooks this year ALMOST makes me feel better about cutting Devonta Freeman after week 1.
Well, not really. At least I was right about this guy though. I probably wasn't pessimistic enough, even though I was pessimistic enough to not draft him.
Kenny Powers
Footballguy
Thank you Brandin. You'll stay in the flex for a few weeks at least now.
SameSongNDance
Footballguy
I just traded for him and now feel like I'm being presented with a great sell high opportunity. To be honest, I think everyone save Ingram/OBJ from that game are great sell high candidates.
