WR Brandin Cooks, NO (2 Viewers)

[TZMarkie]

 I went off #4 in my biggest league this year, taking Antonio Brown, then Cooks in late round 2, and Dalvin Cook in round 3.

Be aware this is a mandatory start 3WR league, so the big WRs tend to go off the board a little faster than some leagues.

I wasn't stoked with Cooks all preseason, and I said "I will NOT own him this year, he is going too early". But then the draft went down a little funny, and suddenly I didn't like any of the other WRs at the time, so I pulled the trigger. (I just didn't like Baldwin, or TY Hilton, for various reasons)

I am as down on him as many guys here, but to say he is essentially an "overdrafted gadget player" is utter bull####.

 Cooks was the number #8 fantasy receiver last season. Let's try and not forget that.

Look back to last week, and he was essentially one play away from having a big day. (Wasn't he stopped down on the 1-2 yard line or something) I can't remember.

Unfortunately I did not see the game today, so I can't say anything beyond what the box score tells me.

Hoodie is not about "revenge games", nor any one specific player, he is about winning, and whatever game plan he has to use to catch the opponents asleep at the wheel.

All of us here can safely bet our asses that not only did Cooks want to score this week, but the Saints likely paid a little extra attention to him to boot.

 As I am posting this, I just looked up his "highlights" from yesterday, and I did see  a nifty jetsweep/end around type play.  

Cooks has always been up and down, but the "week winner" games are coming. 

This smells an awful lot like the ultimate buy low............. (well, let's hope so)

 TZM

 

[Sebowski]

Teams are just going to double and triple Cooks and force Brady to beat them with Allen, Burkhead, White and whoever else is playing receiver if those guys miss time. 

Cooks isn't a dominate wr1. He needs guys around him to help, Gronk, Hogan being out is going to hurt him. Not help. 

 I'm not sure this helps Cooks much. I was looking forward to seeing this offense intact. Edelman was part of the system that was going to open the field for Cooks. 

 

[Bracie Smathers]

He is going to go off soon with a huge game just when everyone is down on him just as he always has.

 

[shadyridr]

DeSean was never a guy who went in the first two rounds that I recall as I've seen Cooks go in the past 2-3 years based on situation.  Guy's just too short to be a viable red zone presence and that means he has to put up some serious between the 20's production.  He does remind me of DeSean, particually the philly era Desean,  where it feels like there'd be 3-4 average/down games and then a blow up game, which is fantasy death IMO.  I'm glad I only got him in one league, I swallowed the kool aid

Hes the same EXACT size as Antonio Brown. Maybe hes just not as good. I doubt size has anything to do with it.

 

[shadyridr]

 I went off #4 in my biggest league this year, taking Antonio Brown, then Cooks in late round 2, and Dalvin Cook in round 3.

Be aware this is a mandatory start 3WR league, so the big WRs tend to go off the board a little faster than some leagues.

I wasn't stoked with Cooks all preseason, and I said "I will NOT own him this year, he is going too early". But then the draft went down a little funny, and suddenly I didn't like any of the other WRs at the time, so I pulled the trigger. (I just didn't like Baldwin, or TY Hilton, for various reasons)

I am as down on him as many guys here, but to say he is essentially an "overdrafted gadget player" is utter bull####.

 Cooks was the number #8 fantasy receiver last season. Let's try and not forget that.

Look back to last week, and he was essentially one play away from having a big day. (Wasn't he stopped down on the 1-2 yard line or something) I can't remember.

Unfortunately I did not see the game today, so I can't say anything beyond what the box score tells me.

Hoodie is not about "revenge games", nor any one specific player, he is about winning, and whatever game plan he has to use to catch the opponents asleep at the wheel.

All of us here can safely bet our asses that not only did Cooks want to score this week, but the Saints likely paid a little extra attention to him to boot.

 As I am posting this, I just looked up his "highlights" from yesterday, and I did see  a nifty jetsweep/end around type play.  

Cooks has always been up and down, but the "week winner" games are coming. 

This smells an awful lot like the ultimate buy low............. (well, let's hope so)

 TZM

He did catch one at the one yard line today as well. Brady kind of under threw it.

 

[The Jacket]

He is going to go off soon with a huge game just when everyone is down on him just as he always has.

Is that supposed to be a good thing? I've owned him his entire career and this is very frustrating. 

 

[TZMarkie]

Is that supposed to be a good thing? I've owned him his entire career and this is very frustrating. 

 Check this out.

 http://games.espn.com/ffl/leaders?&seasonTotals=true&seasonId=2016&slotCategoryId=4

 He finished #8 at WR scoring last year. I believe he was somewhere inside the top 20 the year prior, but I don't have any info at my fingertips.

I know its up and down, and "frustrating", we all want someone to give us a 18-20 point wallop every week, but it just doesn't work that way.

I don't have the numbers prior to this, but if you owned him last year #8, and the year prior he was #12 (fftoday) then you certainly shouldn't be disappointed.

 Were you expecting higher than this?

I'm not looking for an argument, nor to discuss his "potential", but if you have a guy like this on your squad every year, I don't see that as a negative. (other than the swings)

 Now I must admit, I have not owned a share of Doug Baldwin since his rookie year. But he is generally the same thing right? In fact, I remember Baldwin being even MORE hit and miss.  I don't have the hard numbers in front of me, but off the top of my head I think I would rather own Cooks than Baldwin, or most any other high variance WR like this.  At least Cooks has always had elite QBs throwing to him. He went from Brees to Brady.

 If shadyridr was telling the truth above (I have no reason to believe he isn't, I didn't see much of that game yesterday) then we are essentially 2-3 yards from 2 TDs,  one in week 1 and another in week 2.

 If he got even ONE of those, we would all likely be happy.  If he somehow had corralled them BOTH, we would all be thinking he might turnout to be one of the top 2-3 picks in all of fantasy.

 Will he be a top 5 WR?   Possible, but that might be asking for a bit too much. But I think inside the top 20 is damn near a LOCK.

I'm not too happy with the slow production thus far, but the bigger days are coming.

 TZM

 

[DocHolliday]

 Check this out.

 http://games.espn.com/ffl/leaders?&seasonTotals=true&seasonId=2016&slotCategoryId=4

 He finished #8 at WR scoring last year. I believe he was somewhere inside the top 20 the year prior, but I don't have any info at my fingertips.

I know its up and down, and "frustrating", we all want someone to give us a 18-20 point wallop every week, but it just doesn't work that way.

I don't have the numbers prior to this, but if you owned him last year #8, and the year prior he was #12 (fftoday) then you certainly shouldn't be disappointed.

 Were you expecting higher than this?

I'm not looking for an argument, nor to discuss his "potential", but if you have a guy like this on your squad every year, I don't see that as a negative. (other than the swings)

 Now I must admit, I have not owned a share of Doug Baldwin since his rookie year. But he is generally the same thing right? In fact, I remember Baldwin being even MORE hit and miss.  I don't have the hard numbers in front of me, but off the top of my head I think I would rather own Cooks than Baldwin, or most any other high variance WR like this.  At least Cooks has always had elite QBs throwing to him. He went from Brees to Brady.

 If shadyridr was telling the truth above (I have no reason to believe he isn't, I didn't see much of that game yesterday) then we are essentially 2-3 yards from 2 TDs,  one in week 1 and another in week 2.

 If he got even ONE of those, we would all likely be happy.  If he somehow had corralled them BOTH, we would all be thinking he might turnout to be one of the top 2-3 picks in all of fantasy.

 Will he be a top 5 WR?   Possible, but that might be asking for a bit too much. But I think inside the top 20 is damn near a LOCK.

I'm not too happy with the slow production thus far, but the bigger days are coming.

 TZM

There should be good games coming from Cooks eventually.  Feels like you have to play him if you drafted him as one of your top WRs.  

 

[The Jacket]

Unfortunately there's no bonus for total points in my league (which sucks because my team scored a LOT of points for a 7-6 team -- almost 200 more than my 10-3 division winner). There are not many players in the league who have patterns like this, are there?

W1: 27 

W2: 7

W3: 2

W4: 3

W6: 23

How do you win games with him doing that? Averages 12 points per week (in that sample), and in reality you probably win 2 games and lose 3. Oof. If this keeps up in New England, I'll be trying hard to trade him after any big game to a WR-needy team. Give me a guy who more consistently puts up 8-10 points instead of this rollercoaster. An RB perhaps. 

 

[-OZ-]

Hes the same EXACT size as Antonio Brown. Maybe hes just not as good. I doubt size has anything to do with it.

Well, Antonio is possibly the 2nd best receiver I've seen play (Jerry being #1), it's not particularly fair to expect any player to be as good. 

 

[The Hank]

The intermediate passing game for NE was working really well, and always works well to TBH - I own Cooks and while I wish he was part of the festivities yesterday I know that he'll get his soon enough when teams have to bring more players inside to stop the short-passing game, which will free up Cooks.

 

[-OZ-]

Unfortunately there's no bonus for total points in my league (which sucks because my team scored a LOT of points for a 7-6 team -- almost 200 more than my 10-3 division winner). There are not many players in the league who have patterns like this, are there?

W1: 27 

W2: 7

W3: 2

W4: 3

W6: 23

How do you win games with him doing that? Averages 12 points per week (in that sample), and in reality you probably win 2 games and lose 3. Oof. If this keeps up in New England, I'll be trying hard to trade him after any big game to a WR-needy team. Give me a guy who more consistently puts up 8-10 points instead of this rollercoaster. An RB perhaps. 

By having more than one player on your team. He's not a #1 ff receiver.  At least not one I want but I'm quite happy to have him as my 2.

 

[OU#1]

Don't understand how he got so little when Brady went for 400+/4TDs

I am concerned, but he's not leaving the starting lineup.

Cooks has always been boom or bust and it doesn't look like that has changed.

I thought going to NE was going to be a big upgrade for Cooks' production, but when you think about it, why?  He had a HoF QB in Brees who throws for 5000 almost every year.  Being honest with myself, it was more of a lateral move if anything.

Lastly, NE spreads the ball around as much as any NFL team, perhaps making a boom or bust guy even more boom or bust.  NO does spread it around too however.

Single digits is never fun for your 2nd round pick, but he's going to win you some games this year.  Hopefully you can overcome the peaks and valleys.

Good luck all, and try not to panic.

 

[TZMarkie]

Unfortunately there's no bonus for total points in my league (which sucks because my team scored a LOT of points for a 7-6 team -- almost 200 more than my 10-3 division winner). There are not many players in the league who have patterns like this, are there?

W1: 27 

W2: 7

W3: 2

W4: 3

W6: 23

How do you win games with him doing that? Averages 12 points per week (in that sample), and in reality you probably win 2 games and lose 3. Oof. If this keeps up in New England, I'll be trying hard to trade him after any big game to a WR-needy team. Give me a guy who more consistently puts up 8-10 points instead of this rollercoaster. An RB perhaps. 

 I get what you are saying, but thats only part of the picture. Looking back over that card of his, he essentially won you weeks 1,6, and 15 with totals of 27,23 and 30. He also hit double digits in weeks 7,8 and 10. If we stopped right there, thats 6 weeks out of 16, if you go the the finals.  Double digits in greater than 1/3rd the season.

6 points is a bit of an arbitrary number, but he managed 6-9 points in weeks 2,3,9,14,16.

 Any WR we get is going to have a handful of these weeks, where he lets you down.  (Antonio Brown only got me 6.20 in my league yesterday, and he is pretty much universally accepted as WR#1.)

I guess what I am ultimately leading up to, is its not like Drew Brees is the most "consistent" point machine either, most notably shown in his home  road splits. I am not saying there is any correlation, nor do I want to try and run through all the numbers.

But I think we can both "accept" that Cooks has a low boom or bust floor, or  a high variance output. Just trying to attach a number to that, would you say he has perhaps a likely 20% greater chance of dropping a truly horrific number??? (lets say 4 or less)

 I personally believe that getting on board the Tom Brady express this year will help eliminate just a touch of the "boom and bust" or high variance output,  however you want to word it.

 TY Hilton, Doug Baldwin, Amari Cooper and Davante Adams (and Cooks) are all guys who finished in the top 15, and they all have similar up and down production. Even the almighty Mike Evans last year, had the dream matchup in week 1 of the fantasy playoffs, at home, vs. the Saints. He put up a slick 4 for 42 yards and helped eliminate me in one league.

I get what you are saying, but when you look at a number of these guys, its just more of the same.

All my leagues are mandatory "Start 3 WRs leagues", so maybe I am just used to seeing 3 WRs every week rather than 2. Having the extra WR may help to "make up ground" when 1 of the 3 has a bad week. (if thats how you want to look at it)

 I only have Cooks in one league, and he is my WR2, behind Antonio Brown.  I am looking to buy low everywhere I can honestly.

 TZM

 

[The Jacket]

By having more than one player on your team. He's not a #1 ff receiver.  At least not one I want but I'm quite happy to have him as my 2.

I used to agree, I'm not so sure any more. Cooks is my WR2 and DeSean is my WR3. At the end of the year I bet my point totals will be up there, but I'm in for a lot of tough weeks when I get the bust instead of the boom.

Well whatever, let's hope we at least get a boom sometime soon, maybe that'll earn him Brady's trust. 

 

[Hankmoody]

Why did the Hoodie give up a first rd draft pick and then not even barely use this guy? I'm confused.

Because he doesn't give a crap about our fantasy teams.  He'll use him selectively, like he does everyone else on the team not named Gronkowski (and only one of those).  Then, just when opponents are looking elsewhere, he will pelt him repeatedly with targets for about 2 1/2 quarters (right up until the opponent adjusts to it) before going elsewhere again.

Because Belichick

 

[Hankmoody]

he's got a lot of great weeks ahead if he's going to make 80 catches this year :(

Just three.

 

[BigTex]

I'm sure NO did everything in their power defensively stop make sure they don't get embarrassed for trading him. im certain I plan was in place to lockdown Cooks.

Tex

 

[SameSongNDance]

Some beat writes/experts attribute Cook's shutdown to the fact that the CB covering him ran a 4.36 40 and that Cook's splits vs. fast CBs aren't good because he can't leverage his speed.

Scott Barrett‏ @ScottBarrettDFB  21h21 hours ago

Marshon Lattimore (4.36 forty) lined up against Brandin Cooks (4.33 forty) on 30 of 39 routes. Held him to just 15 yards on 3 targets.

Article about it.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

Because he doesn't give a crap about our fantasy teams.  He'll use him selectively, like he does everyone else on the team not named Gronkowski (and only one of those).  Then, just when opponents are looking elsewhere, he will pelt him repeatedly with targets for about 2 1/2 quarters (right up until the opponent adjusts to it) before going elsewhere again.

Because Belichick

Well said.

Moss < > Cooks.

 

[TartanLion]

Unfortunately there's no bonus for total points in my league (which sucks because my team scored a LOT of points for a 7-6 team -- almost 200 more than my 10-3 division winner). There are not many players in the league who have patterns like this, are there?

W1: 27 

W2: 7

W3: 2

W4: 3

W6: 23

How do you win games with him doing that? Averages 12 points per week (in that sample), and in reality you probably win 2 games and lose 3. Oof. If this keeps up in New England, I'll be trying hard to trade him after any big game to a WR-needy team. Give me a guy who more consistently puts up 8-10 points instead of this rollercoaster. An RB perhaps. 

For me it's all about what kind of blend you have in your entire starting roster, what scoring characteristics your other starters have etc.

As said by someone else, those weeks where he scores big, he's not just scoring a decent total, he's scoring a number which means you can suffer some very poor scores in other positions and still win your week. That is a massive ability to have that more solid lower ceiling players don't have.

in those down weeks you look for his team mates that you drafted to pick up some slack. 

As an example, in one league I have a trio of Tyreek Hill, Cooks and Gronk. All explosive with high ceilings. Hill picked up the slack and won me week 1, Gronk did it in week 2 and I'll be hoping Cooks helps me out in the next two weeks. 

And then of course you get the great weeks where these kind of guys go off at the same time and it's glorious. 

 

[ZWK]

Unfortunately there's no bonus for total points in my league (which sucks because my team scored a LOT of points for a 7-6 team -- almost 200 more than my 10-3 division winner). There are not many players in the league who have patterns like this, are there?

W1: 27 

W2: 7

W3: 2

W4: 3

W6: 23

How do you win games with him doing that? Averages 12 points per week (in that sample), and in reality you probably win 2 games and lose 3. Oof. If this keeps up in New England, I'll be trying hard to trade him after any big game to a WR-needy team. Give me a guy who more consistently puts up 8-10 points instead of this rollercoaster. An RB perhaps. 

Because you have 9 guys on your team. You just need a couple of them to go off each week.

Let's say that your 5 RB/WRs are all just like Cooks; over a 5-week period they'll be all over the place just like this. So you have something like:

Cooks: 27, 7, 2, 3, 23
RB1: 23, 2, 7, 27, 3
RB2: 3, 7, 23, 27, 2
WR2: 2, 7, 23, 3, 27
WR3: 3, 23, 7, 27, 2
Total: 58, 62, 67, 87, 36

That's 1 terrible week out of 5 (where only one of the five players went off), 1 big week (where 3 went off), and 3 solid weeks. Each of these players averaged 12.4 ppg, and if you replaced them with superconsistent players who scored 11 points each week then you would do worse in 4 weeks out of 5.

This example was randomly generated, by randomly shuffling Cooks's 5 games for each of the other 4 players. Repeating 5 more times, here's what I get for the team's weekly totals in each run:

Run2: 47, 79, 65, 42, 77
Run3: 78, 82, 75, 42, 33
Run4: 66, 78, 87, 39, 40
Run5: 51, 127, 62, 13, 57
Run6: 82, 56, 67, 63, 42

Some more extreme weeks in there (you're going to win that 127-point week and lose that 13-point week). But in 17 out of 25 weeks you'd do better than the superconsistent team where every player scores exactly 11 points each game.

(BTW, check out the all-play record of your high-scoring 7-6 team. I bet it was better than your 54% winning percentage, and that you mostly just had bad luck in terms of happening to play lots of your opponents when they had a good week.)

 

[conlilnew]

I really like Cooks and what's there not to like. He's practically the only healthy WR in NE right now. I know he was supposed to have a breakout game last Sunday  and I'm still trying to figure why he didn't. Don't you all think this is week it comes together? I'm thinking of pulling the trigger and trading M. Bryant for Cooks in a full ppr. I just believe Cooks is a WR1 when the season is all done and will end up being a more consistent scorer than Bryant. 

 

[Anarchy99]

I really like Cooks and what's there not to like. He's practically the only healthy WR in NE right now. I know he was supposed to have a breakout game last Sunday  and I'm still trying to figure why he didn't. Don't you all think this is week it comes together? I'm thinking of pulling the trigger and trading M. Bryant for Cooks in a full ppr. I just believe Cooks is a WR1 when the season is all done and will end up being a more consistent scorer than Bryant. 

Cooks was being covered by a CB as fast as he is and was also being double teamed most of the game by safety help over the top. The Saints made a concerted effort to not let Cooks beat them, thus leaving other NE players to get open instead. 

I would have thought NE would have made adjustments to get Cooks move involved, but they seemed happy and content to look for other targets and take what the Saints were giving them. 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Yeah Lattimore looked great out there.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I'm sure NO did everything in their power defensively stop make sure they don't get embarrassed for trading him. im certain I plan was in place to lockdown Cooks.

Tex

I'm not being sarcastic here, the Saints don't have that capability, and really I didn't see much more than Lattimore covering for most of the game (I think he got dinged and left at one point, a hammy maybe...). Watching the game it occurred to me how much better the Saints offense was with Cooks (they're seriously missing him, so is Thomas) and also that it's possible that the Pats' gameplan may even be more harmful to his dream of becoming a WR1. All in all it's too bad. He may be great for the Pats, I personally think he's a terrific receiver, I hope he does have a great season, it is possible he has just had a couple lousy matchups so far.

 

[SameSongNDance]

He isn't getting any separation. His 1.3 yards of separation is the 2nd lowest amongst pass catchers. Worse yet, he's being afforded a very small average cushion of 2.9 yards. This tells me that he can't beat the press at all. 

Again, I'd take a look at his splits vs. CBs with sub 4.4 wheels. When he can't leverage his speed he doesn't seem to do anything.

 

[Doubledown1313]

What is Cook's value in a PPR dynasty league in trade for just 2018 rookie picks?

What would you be willing to buy for and what would it take to sell?

 

[need2know]

It's also hard to do anything with 4 targets

 

[SameSongNDance]

Cooks is going to be squaring off against Marcus Burley this week, a dude who was cut by CLE during the preseason. This will be his most exploitable match-up to date and if he doesn't put up top 15 numbers you can officially hit the panic button.

 

[[icon]]

Some beat writes/experts attribute Cook's shutdown to the fact that the CB covering him ran a 4.36 40 and that Cook's splits vs. fast CBs aren't good because he can't leverage his speed.

Article about it.

He isn't getting any separation. His 1.3 yards of separation is the 2nd lowest amongst pass catchers. Worse yet, he's being afforded a very small average cushion of 2.9 yards. This tells me that he can't beat the press at all. 

Again, I'd take a look at his splits vs. CBs with sub 4.4 wheels. When he can't leverage his speed he doesn't seem to do anything.

Cooks is going to be squaring off against Marcus Burley this week, a dude who was cut by CLE during the preseason. This will be his most exploitable match-up to date and if he doesn't put up top 15 numbers you can officially hit the panic button.

Good posting here SSND. Thanks for calling this out

 

[Ghost Rider]

He isn't getting any separation. His 1.3 yards of separation is the 2nd lowest amongst pass catchers. Worse yet, he's being afforded a very small average cushion of 2.9 yards. This tells me that he can't beat the press at all. 

Again, I'd take a look at his splits vs. CBs with sub 4.4 wheels. When he can't leverage his speed he doesn't seem to do anything.

I remember that being in the knock on him when he got off to a slow start in 2015, yet he eventually got going that season and then had a really nice 2016 season as well.  

However, on the Patriots, his inability to get open right away is a detriment, since their offense is designed for Brady to get rid of the ball fast on most plays, so even if Cooks does get open 3-4 seconds after the ball is hiked, the ball is long gone to another receiver who got open right away. 

 

[Tau837]

He isn't getting any separation. His 1.3 yards of separation is the 2nd lowest amongst pass catchers. Worse yet, he's being afforded a very small average cushion of 2.9 yards. This tells me that he can't beat the press at all. 

Again, I'd take a look at his splits vs. CBs with sub 4.4 wheels. When he can't leverage his speed he doesn't seem to do anything.

I remember that being in the knock on him when he got off to a slow start in 2015, yet he eventually got going that season and then had a really nice 2016 season as well.  

However, on the Patriots, his inability to get open right away is a detriment, since their offense is designed for Brady to get rid of the ball fast on most plays, so even if Cooks does get open 3-4 seconds after the ball is hiked, the ball is long gone to another receiver who got open right away. 

I didn't do it for week 2, but I watched every one of his (official and unofficial due to penalty) targets in week 1 on NFL game pass a few times, and posted about it in this thread. He was open on 6 of 9 plays, but 1 of the 3 plays he was interfered with from the start of his route, so it isn't a valid data point. So he was open on 6 of 8 plays, and 1 of the other 2 was a successful completion on a back shoulder throw. In that game, his separation wasn't a problem.  

 

[need2know]

He's staying in my lineup no matter what so I don't miss the eventual huge game but I thought he would be consistently awesome.  Should have known better with the pats

 

[BigTex]

Cooks is going to be squaring off against Marcus Burley this week, a dude who was cut by CLE during the preseason. This will be his most exploitable match-up to date and if he doesn't put up top 15 numbers you can officially hit the panic button.

Yes and I'm STRONGLY considering starting him over Cooper who has a good matchup as well. Right now I have Cooks in my lineup.

Tex

 

[SameSongNDance]

I didn't do it for week 2, but I watched every one of his (official and unofficial due to penalty) targets in week 1 on NFL game pass a few times, and posted about it in this thread. He was open on 6 of 9 plays, but 1 of the 3 plays he was interfered with from the start of his route, so it isn't a valid data point. So he was open on 6 of 8 plays, and 1 of the other 2 was a successful completion on a back shoulder throw. In that game, his separation wasn't a problem.  

I think his game vs. Lattimore skews the numbers. Lattimore literally deleted him from the game last week.

 

[Biabreakable]

He isn't getting any separation. His 1.3 yards of separation is the 2nd lowest amongst pass catchers. Worse yet, he's being afforded a very small average cushion of 2.9 yards. This tells me that he can't beat the press at all. 

Again, I'd take a look at his splits vs. CBs with sub 4.4 wheels. When he can't leverage his speed he doesn't seem to do anything.

I am not buying this explanation that Cooks cant get open against faster corner backs at all. It does not make sense. There are almost no corners in the league with low speed. Almost all of them are 4.4 type speed players.

 

[need2know]

I am not buying this explanation that Cooks cant get open against faster corner backs at all. It does not make sense. There are almost no corners in the league with low speed. Almost all of them are 4.4 type speed players.

Yeah.  He got 4 targets and the corner covering him had a good game.  End of story.  Didn't he almost score a TD on one of his reception s?  That's 2 straight weeks he could have scored.  One of these weeks he's going to have multiple TDS.

 

[packersfan]

Yeah.  He got 4 targets and the corner covering him had a good game.  End of story.  Didn't he almost score a TD on one of his reception s?  That's 2 straight weeks he could have scored.  One of these weeks he's going to have multiple TDS.

Yes. Bad throw by Brady which Cooks had to adjust to and that cost him a TD as he got tackled just outside the end zone. 

 

[SameSongNDance]

I am not buying this explanation that Cooks cant get open against faster corner backs at all. It does not make sense. There are almost no corners in the league with low speed. Almost all of them are 4.4 type speed players.

So you think the splits are a coincidence and can be chalked up to variance?

 

[voiceofunreason]

I am not buying this explanation that Cooks cant get open against faster corner backs at all. It does not make sense. There are almost no corners in the league with low speed. Almost all of them are 4.4 type speed players.

There's few sub 4.4 guys at any position as far as I know. 

 

[Biabreakable]

So you think the splits are a coincidence and can be chalked up to variance?

No.

I haven't seen those splits and you didn't provide them, you said to look at them.

I am not sure what your source is in regards to yards of separation.

I am just saying that I don't think it is because of speed or 40 time because almost all corners are fast and Cooks obviously has been able to get open and make receptions against those corners in his career already. 

If it were a scenario that the splits show him not performing as well against fast corners then he never would have produced anything in the NFL. All of the NFL corners are fast.

If there is a reason for this, it something other than speed.

 

[SameSongNDance]

No.

I haven't seen those splits and you didn't provide them, you said to look at them.

I am not sure what your source is in regards to yards of separation.

I am just saying that I don't think it is because of speed or 40 time because almost all corners are fast and Cooks obviously has been able to get open and make receptions against those corners in his career already.

If it were a scenario that the splits show him not performing as well against fast corners then he never would have produced anything in the NFL. All of the NFL corners are fast.

If there is a reason for this, it something other than speed.

Article on splits, I posted this earlier and it was recently quoted.

Next Gen Stats for separation, cushion and etc.

TLDR: He's seen 90 targets vs. CBs who ran a 4.4 or better and averaged 1.65 PPR. He's seen 75 targets vs. CBs who ran a 4.5 or slower and averaged 2.91 PPR.

Among 139 qualifying wide receivers to see at least 125 such targets over the past decade, that +1.26 fantasy-point-per-target differential is the largest of any wide receiver this past decade.

 

[Biabreakable]

Ok from the article the author says:

Throughout his career, Cooks has seen 90 targets against cornerbacks who posted a 40-yard dash of 4.44 or faster at their respective combines. He averages 1.65 PPR fantasy points per target against these “faster” cornerbacks.

Cooks has seen 75 targets against cornerbacks that ran a 4.45 or slower 40 at their respective combines. He averages 2.91 fantasy points per target against these “slower” cornerbacks.

So the sample size being used is 165 targets.

Brandin Cooks prior to 2017 has 315 targets. So where did the other 150 targets go in the authors study?

 

[SameSongNDance]

Ok from the article the author says:

So the sample size being used is 165 targets.

Brandin Cooks prior to 2017 has 315 targets. So where did the other 150 targets go in the authors study?

Good question because later in the article they acknowledge that he's seen 303 total targets. Maybe it's referring to him being shadowed? I don't know.

 

[Hankmoody]

Probably no combine data available.

 

[ZWK]

I wish they had "per route run" stats instead of "per target" stats. If he struggles to get open against fast corners, then I'd mainly expect to see a drop in targets since the QB mostly won't throw to him if he isn't open.

And with great underneath receivers like Landry and Edelman I mainly expect to see them get lots of targets since they get open so regularly; I don't expect to see them have an especially high "fpts per target". So the fact that Cooks is only 20th out of 51 in fpts per target (excluding deep routes) doesn't tell me much.

 

[Biabreakable]

Using fantasy points instead of yards creates noise in the sample also because of the TDs. Its even worse if they are using PPR scoring for that.

I think it is interesting, and perhaps advanced stats like this become more common knowledge as time goes on. For that to happen people using them need to do a better job of communicating the information and being accurate and transparent in their processes.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Yes. Bad throw by Brady which Cooks had to adjust to and that cost him a TD as he got tackled just outside the end zone. 

He literally had to run back out of the endzone to catch the ball after being 10 yards behind any defender.  Should have been the easiest gimme TD of the game if not for a terrible throw.

But other than that I thought he was struggling to get separation in the game even before seeing the stats here.  He looked fine week 1.  Did not look good week 2.  I worry a bit if he's not getting open.  A lot of the raving about him in camp was him making great catches in traffic but Brady isn't really the type of QB to throw into coverage or throw a guy open.  The thing that has always made him one of the all-time greats is that he reads the field better than anyone in NFL history and it's not even close.  Why throw into coverage and let your receiver try and make a play when you're as good at finding someone wide open as he is?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

 A lot of the raving about him in camp was him making great catches in traffic but Brady isn't really the type of QB to throw into coverage or throw a guy open. 

That's Brady, right since Moss it's been tight end, Walker/Edelman, & RB. Isn't that fair to say that's been the (his) system?