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WR Josh Gordon, KC (1 Viewer)

Bazinga! said:
Tom Pelissero‏Verified account @TomPelissero

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Since #Brown WR Josh Gordon is still in jointly negotiated substance abuse program, he’s subject to certain conditions. Per @NFLprguy: “This part of the process. Can attend meetings, do conditioning. Can go to practice but not participate. No timetable on next step.”

9:56 AM - 18 Aug 2018 from Minneapolis, MN

Nothing odd about this at all  :X

#hewonthitmeagain
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I would appreciate if you stop with the domestic abuse commentary. It is wildly inappropriate when discussing magic football.

 
Generally where there's smoke there's fire, but people do proactive rehab all the time when they feel stressors. 

Could be as simple as that. 

Or he could have missed or failed another one. 

It's really a battle. 

 
SameSongNDance said:
I don't know anything for sure, all I can ever do is speculate. But Tyrod has shown that he sometimes moves too quickly through his progressions and that he likes to pull the ball down and flee the pocket too early when he senses pressure. Haley's offensive philosophy is one thing, but he's primarily worked with Big Ben and Kurt Warner during his career and no one is going to compare them to Tyrod. When he worked with Cassel in KC, Cassel averaged ~500 attempts per year over the course of three seasons and he non-coincidentally also scrambled a lot more than Ben/Warner. If you're expecting the Browns to be a better team this year that finds themselves with more positive game scripts and an ultra conservative QB at the helm I think it's fair to expect them to be near the bottom of the league in pass attempts.

I have CLE pegged to attempt ~500 passes and for Gordon to command a 18-20% market share. That'd put him in a range of 90-100 targets. Of course I could be wrong, but I feel comfortable at least assuming that he's not going to see some massive target total that could propel him into the high-end WR1 ranks this year. He can also do a lot with 90-100 targets but not enough for me to take him in the 4th/5th round.
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:goodposting:

Not touching a Tyrod Taylor WR in weekly lineup format. 

 
Soulfly3 said:
Every top source, browns included = no failed test / not suspended 

Gordon = I'm back

FBG = something's off, he's gone. 
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Where are you hearing the top source and the Browns? 

Do you have a link? 

I'm not grilling you, you know I'm genuinely interested.  

 
Someone just offered him to me for Guice and a 2019 1st.  Jesus people.

But he got mood so I'll probably counter and throw in my 2nd too.

 
Mene said:
Since #Brown WR Josh Gordon is still in jointly negotiated substance abuse program, he’s subject to certain conditions. Per @NFLprguy: “This part of the process. Can attend meetings, do conditioning. Can go to practice but not participate. No timetable on next step.”

https://twitter.com/TomPelissero/status/1030860966756536320

What now?  I didn't think there were any restrictions on his ability to participate in practice?
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Same thing happened when Martavis came back.  Couldn’t play preseason immediately and had a few more hurdles to clear as he worked back, but was still reinstated to play before the season.

This matches what we saw last year with Bryant exactly.

 
Appears something happened that they are keeping secret . But whatever hes back.

But the sense still lingers that the league has had a hand in this situation, despite the apparent effort to create the impression that the league has nothing to do with it. Consider this tweet from Tom Pelissero of NFL Media regarding the terms of Gordon’s return to the Browns: “Since . . . WR Josh Gordon is still in jointly negotiated substance abuse program, he’s subject to certain conditions. Per [league spokesman Brian McCarthy]: ‘This part of the process. Can attend meetings, do conditioning. Can go to practice but not participate. No timetable on next step.'”

However this one is characterized, it’s clear that Gordon’s return and the terms of his return are controlled by the league. It’s also clear that Gordon’s ability to practice and to play will be subject to league approval.

Which necessarily means that something likely happened within the confines of Gordon’s treatment plan to trigger the absence in the first place. Otherwise, he would be instantly reinstated with no restrictions of any kind.

So why is the league tiptoeing around this one? As suggested in the early days of Gordon’s unplanned sabbatical, the Enforcer may be (wisely) realizing that overly aggressive application of the substance-abuse policy helps no one. So with Gordon in Stage 3 of the program and with any false move resulting by rule in a minimum banishment of at least another full year, the league apparently opted not to run Gordon out of the sport but to work with him.

 
damageinc said:
Appears something happened that they are keeping secret . But whatever hes back.

But the sense still lingers that the league has had a hand in this situation, despite the apparent effort to create the impression that the league has nothing to do with it. Consider this tweet from Tom Pelissero of NFL Media regarding the terms of Gordon’s return to the Browns: “Since . . . WR Josh Gordon is still in jointly negotiated substance abuse program, he’s subject to certain conditions. Per [league spokesman Brian McCarthy]: ‘This part of the process. Can attend meetings, do conditioning. Can go to practice but not participate. No timetable on next step.'”

However this one is characterized, it’s clear that Gordon’s return and the terms of his return are controlled by the league. It’s also clear that Gordon’s ability to practice and to play will be subject to league approval.

Which necessarily means that something likely happened within the confines of Gordon’s treatment plan to trigger the absence in the first place. Otherwise, he would be instantly reinstated with no restrictions of any kind.

So why is the league tiptoeing around this one? As suggested in the early days of Gordon’s unplanned sabbatical, the Enforcer may be (wisely) realizing that overly aggressive application of the substance-abuse policy helps no one. So with Gordon in Stage 3 of the program and with any false move resulting by rule in a minimum banishment of at least another full year, the league apparently opted not to run Gordon out of the sport but to work with him.
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Or what Arodin said about protocol and Martavis Bryant. 

 
Dr. Octopus said:
I edited my post above - 9 TDs is pretty good.
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Not trying to be a smart ### either (even if I understand that I am being one) but Woods is the only decent example.

Hogan got Tom Freaking Brady and no one is comparing Tyrod to him.

Watkins did not perform objectively better last year.

Even with Goodwin who performed well beyond expectations with San Francisco you can easily point to what a huge project he was. He got two starts in 2015 and nine in 2016, I think it is fair to suggest he simply was not ready to compete at the NFL level.

Woods is the only example I agree with outright. He had a better season in 2017 than he ever did in Buffalo.

 
In a keep 6, optional 7 league (lose 1st round pick to keep 7).

keepers due tomorrow, officially kept him as my #7.

Absolutely not regrets, he’ll be a starter in fantasy for sure and could be as good as #1 WR in the league.

 
I think @SameSongNDance is about right with the o/u for Tyrod being 500 attempts. I would cap him at 530 tops. I also agree that Tyrod is more likely than many (most?) QBs to tuck and run (although there is a declining trend), who wouldn't with his running ability? And I also agree that with that volume none of the Browns WRs are likely to exceed their draft position.

However I also think that Tyrod throws a great deep ball and looks like a great match with Gordon for that reason. If any WR is going to meet or exceed expectations in Cleveland it's gonna be Gordon. He's like a gigantic Tyreek Hill, not as fast of course but if you give him even a milimeter opening he'll blow by you, go over or through you on the way to the end zone.

 
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Chaka said:
Not trying to be a smart ### either (even if I understand that I am being one) but Woods is the only decent example.

Hogan got Tom Freaking Brady and no one is comparing Tyrod to him.

Watkins did not perform objectively better last year.

Even with Goodwin who performed well beyond expectations with San Francisco you can easily point to what a huge project he was. He got two starts in 2015 and nine in 2016, I think it is fair to suggest he simply was not ready to compete at the NFL level.

Woods is the only example I agree with outright. He had a better season in 2017 than he ever did in Buffalo.
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So Hogan didn’t do better after he left Taylor? 

and someone also mentioned Goodwin.

bottom line is Taylor is not a good QB for WRs - I know people love to argue about everything here but I don’t see how that’s debatable.

 
Chaka said:
I think @SameSongNDance is about right with the o/u for Tyrod being 500 attempts. I would cap him at 530 tops. I also agree that Tyrod is more likely than many (most?) QBs to tuck and run (although there is a declining trend), who wouldn't with his running ability? And I also agree that with that volume none of the Browns WRs are likely to exceed their draft position.

However I also think that Tyrod throws a great deep ball and looks like a great match with Gordon for that reason. If any WR is going to meet or exceed expectations in Cleveland it's gonna be Gordon. He's like a gigantic Tyreek Hill, not as fast of course but if you give him even a milimeter opening he'll blow by you, go over or through you on the way to the end zone.
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Even though it was cut short, I think Watkins' 2015 season with Tyrod where he put up a 60/1047/9 line (17.5ypc) on 93 targets is close to what Gordon's most realistic ceiling is. He would need some crazy TD total relative to his targets/receptions.

But when you talk "ceiling" with Gordon I feel like there are some people whose minds go directly back to 2013 when he had 160 targets and put up 1650 total yards. That's not happening unless Tyrod and Landry get hit by a truck before the start of the reg season.

And notice when I talk about Gordon I don't even factor in the inherent risk that comes a long with him. I'm assuming he plays 16 games this year and I'm still not in love with him at his ADP. I'm sure he'll be a consensus 4th rounder by the time I'm drafting.

 
Dr. Octopus said:
So Hogan didn’t do better after he left Taylor? 

and someone also mentioned Goodwin.

bottom line is Taylor is not a good QB for WRs - I know people love to argue about everything here but I don’t see how that’s debatable.
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Come on Doc, Hogan? Are we really comparing Tyrod + Rex Ryan/Greg Roman with Brady + Belichick? Yes, Hogan did better with the latter, does that prove anything about Tyrod other than he isn't Tom Brady? A point we were all willing to concede about forever ago.

And I agreed with Goodwin while also making a valid point for hanging an asterisk on that one.

 
SameSongNDance said:
Even though it was cut short, I think Watkins' 2015 season with Tyrod where he put up a 60/1047/9 line (17.5ypc) on 93 targets is close to what Gordon's most realistic ceiling is. He would need some crazy TD total relative to his targets/receptions.

But when you talk "ceiling" with Gordon I feel like there are some people whose minds go directly back to 2013 when he had 160 targets and put up 1650 total yards. That's not happening unless Tyrod and Landry get hit by a truck before the start of the reg season.

And notice when I talk about Gordon I don't even factor in the inherent risk that comes a long with him. I'm assuming he plays 16 games this year and I'm still not in love with him at his ADP. I'm sure he'll be a consensus 4th rounder by the time I'm drafting.
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Sammy only played 13 in 2015 and wasn't right physically for probably 3-4 others.

I totally agree thay 2013 is a pipe dream in 2017, that was ages ago in football years. And yup Gordon comes with far more external risk than most, but what I don't question is what he is capable of on the field even under terrible circumstances.

Every player can turn a bad magic football week into a good one with one play but some players seem to have a higher probability of turning in those plays. Tyreek is King of the NFL in that regard without question but I am not sure there is another player I would put above Gordon after Tyreek.

 
Dr. Octopus said:
Yes and they’ve all done better after they got away from him, Hogan, Woods and Watkins.
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Watkins did better without him?

eta - in fact it looks like the majority of the gain for both Woods and Hogan came on one catch. 

 
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Chaka said:
Sammy only played 13 in 2015 and wasn't right physically for probably 3-4 others.

I totally agree thay 2013 is a pipe dream in 2017, that was ages ago in football years. And yup Gordon comes with far more external risk than most, but what I don't question is what he is capable of on the field even under terrible circumstances.

Every player can turn a bad magic football week into a good one with one play but some players seem to have a higher probability of turning in those plays. Tyreek is King of the NFL in that regard without question but I am not sure there is another player I would put above Gordon after Tyreek.
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Hill is actually really interesting. His catch percentages have been 71% and 73% over the last two years and his average depth of target is anywhere from below average to average. His stats tell the story of someone who excels at yards after the catch like Golden Tate yet I think most people (not saying you) think of him solely as a deep threat. He just also has the ability to take the top off of a defense. Gordon has never caught more than 55% of his targets and his average depth of target is quite a bit higher. I'm not saying Gordon can't take a slant to the house or anything, we've seen him do it, I just find Hill odd. I'm just rambling but yeah they're similar in the sense that it just takes one play for them to go from ####### you over to winning your week. 

 
Dr. Octopus said:
Yes and they’ve all done better after they got away from him, Hogan, Woods and Watkins.
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Watkins had his best season with Tyrod and he missed 3 games. Then the Bills medical staff screwed him the year after before the new group traded him.

 
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Chaka said:
Not trying to be a smart ### either (even if I understand that I am being one) but Woods is the only decent example.

Hogan got Tom Freaking Brady and no one is comparing Tyrod to him.

Watkins did not perform objectively better last year.

Even with Goodwin who performed well beyond expectations with San Francisco you can easily point to what a huge project he was. He got two starts in 2015 and nine in 2016, I think it is fair to suggest he simply was not ready to compete at the NFL level.

Woods is the only example I agree with outright. He had a better season in 2017 than he ever did in Buffalo.
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Woods played injured all 15, which has been an issue his whole career. He did better to open 16 then got injured again. 

 
I got nuthin on Hogan outside of the obvious that others have said - Brady. I didn't know him beyond name basis until 2016. Pointing the finger at Taylor alone for tht seems kinda convenient to support a narrative though.

 
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