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WR Josh Gordon, KC (9 Viewers)

tdhartis said:
I'd personally rather Hoyer start this week. Manziel almost assuredly hasn't adequately developed the mental aspect of his game at this point and will probably rely far too much on his legs. While he could suprise me, I just don't see him finding the same level of success he had in college scrambling to buy time to then chunk it deep. Guy is also short, which I think has something to do with this tendency as well. In many respects he is similar to Russel Wilson, who in his first start went 18/34 for 153 yds, 1 touchdown and 1 interception.

My hope is that the Browns realize they should dance with the one that brought them, Hoyer, and give him a second shot that he responds to positively much like Tannehill after nearly losing his starting position earlier this year. At least we as Gordon owners know he has success with him in the past and he zeroes in on Gordon like no other. If he shakes the funk he's in it could spell great things for Gordon. Also, like someone mentioned above, I fear that Manziel will make his one read and immediately tuck it, and if Manziel's start is anything like Wilson's I think a lot of Gordon owners will be sorely dissapointed with his day.

All of that aside, if Vontae Davis out out it could change everything. He is the defense's most important player and if Gordon doesn't have to match up across from him I start him even if Matt Schaub was at QB (okay, maybe that's a stretch). To say the least, I would have a lot more confidence in Manziel giving Gordon owners a good day if that were to happen.
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As a Gordon owner, I would rather see Hoyer... but if I'm the Browns I make the switch. I understand "dance with who brung ya" loyalty, but it's 7-5 in a mostly cupcake schedule with some really poor decisions over the last two weeks.

 
tdhartis said:
All of that aside, if Vontae Davis out out it could change everything. He is the defense's most important player and if Gordon doesn't have to match up across from him I start him even if Matt Schaub was at QB (okay, maybe that's a stretch). To say the least, I would have a lot more confidence in Manziel giving Gordon owners a good day if that were to happen.
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That's a very good point. I didn't watch the Colts / Skins game and didn't realize that he had a concussion. Definitely something to keep track of throughout the week. I remember reading the guy behind Davis was a bit of a liability. Hopefully Davis is clearly in or out come Friday so we don't have to deal with a game time decision.

 
Whether a team's no1 CB is in or out is not very high on my priority list for Gordon.

If Davis it out, sure it's a HUGE bump, but the best CBs have already proven they can barely keep Gordon in check, if at all.

The bigger worry now, is WHO is getting him the ball. Apparently Hoyer has not improved at all, in fact he looks to have regressed.

If Manziel is named the starter today (as expected) this is a definite bump for Gordon.

...Amazing that the "unknown" is a bump, but it literally cant get worse than Hoyer's play of late

 
Doesn't matter who the QB is, as we have found out the last couple years... Weeden, Hoyer, Campbell... Gordon will find ways to put up numbers.

7-75 and 8 - 120 in his first two games back to NFL action... not sure how you can sit this guy at this point.

If he's on your roster - its likely you were hoping he'd start at some point.

The upside is too great to leave him on your bench...and his floor is probably something you can live with (specially in ppr, with the number of targets he sees).

I've been following along in this thread, as a dynasty Gordon owner I was on the brink of trading him a couple times this offseason.

Now that he's back, I just can't justify sitting him - unless you are absolutely stacked at WR.

 
I know it the wrong forum but playoffs start this week. Can only play 3 - D Byrant, R Cobb, J Gordon or K Allen... Left Allen on the bench last week...

 
stlrams said:
I know it the wrong forum but playoffs start this week. Can only play 3 - D Byrant, R Cobb, J Gordon or K Allen... Left Allen on the bench last week...
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just to play devil's advocate...

take a look at some of the stinkers ALL those guys have put up this season. a lot.

all studs have down days

 
MAC_32 said:
How about all of the plays Gordon has screwed up?
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You mean all those times he was running free and clear and Hoyer couldn't find his zip code? Yeah, those were some crazy times.

Have to admit, I was very enthusiastic about Gordon because I fully expected Manziel to be the QB by now. I'll still insert Gordon but not as thrilled about it with Hoyer at the helm.

 
stlrams said:
I know it the wrong forum but playoffs start this week. Can only play 3 - D Byrant, R Cobb, J Gordon or K Allen... Left Allen on the bench last week...
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Keenan Allen has been awesome but he is the odd man out there, given the strength of the Pats corners and the other 3 are beasts with good to great matchups.

 
I think everyone needs to calm down, we had one game against a very good, motivated defense in a tough venue. Gordon got a good bit of his yardage against the falcs late from Hoyer, he did not get that chance vs BUF.

Meanwhile McCoy threw for a ton vs Indy and Davis may be out. I will take the downfield thrower, albeit an inaccurate one, back at home, with Austin out now to boot.

 
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happy to hear hoyer gets another shot... ill take 15 bad targets a game over a one-read scrambling midget any day of the week. bills defense is legit, should be more openings against Indy this week even if vontae davis plays...

 
Soulfly3 said:
Whether a team's no1 CB is in or out is not very high on my priority list for Gordon.
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Results of opposing team's "top" WR against Vontae Davis this season:

v. BAL:

a.) Torrey Smith - 3/38/0

b.) Steve Smith Jr. - 5/34/0

v. HOU

a.) DeAndre Hopkins - 1/12/0

b) Andre Johnson - 7/99/1

v. CIN

a.) Mohamed Sanu - 3/54/0

v. PIT

a.) Antonio Brown - 10/133/2

v. NYG

a.) Rueben Randle - 4/49/0

v. NE

a.) Brandon LaFell - 3/62/0

v. JAC

a.) Cecil Shorts - 1/6/0

v. WAS

a.) DeSean Jackson - 5/84/1

Two of the good games against the Colts, by Jackson and Antonio Brown, came on days where Vontae Davis left the game with an injury and did not return. He left the Steelers game in the first quarter after conceding one 9 yard catch, and left the Redskins game in the third. Desean Jackson's 42-yard touchdown came against CB Josh Gordy while Davis was sitting out. Davis was returning from a knee injury in the game against the NYG, and was matched up with Rueben Randle, not OBJ.

So, the only good statistical day a WR had against Vontae was Andre Johnson, who had 4 receptions for 74 yards when Davis was on him. His other yards and the TD came when they were not lined up against one another.

Davis has not surrended a TD to this point in the season and is having an incredible year. Going into week 10 opposing QBs had a 41.1 QBR when passing into his coverage. If "whether [Davis] is in or out is not very high on [your] priority list for Gordon," then you're not going about this hobby the right way. If Hoyer were playing well it would be far less of a concern of mine, as I don't doubt Gordon could give Davis a hell of a fight on an individual level. But if Davis plays, there will be fewer opportunities, less seperation, smaller windows of time and space for Hoyer, a higher chance of a deflection or interception, and generally less room for error. He would be the best CB Gordon has lined up against this year, compared the ATL secondary that is poor and the Bill's that is good, but does not have anyone to offer on Davis' level.

I personally believe Hoyer is the better option for Gordon, but that aside, unless you're confident that Hoyer is going to significantly improve his game, whether Davis is in or out of this game should he high atop your priority list. I made a case for why Gordon could easily have a down game against BUF and you were the one that was eating crow on account of your overconfidence and failure to actually analyse the situation. It might be time to think about extrinsic factors outside Gordon himself that have already shown capable of holding back his potential. All of the above in mind, I'm still not saying he's not an individual stud or should be on your bench. I know I'm starting him, as after thinking about the situation he is still the best option at WR2 on my team. That may not be the case for others. Just think before proceeding blindly.

 
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tdhartis, that's a great post, and I have admitted that Davis is an Elite CB.

But it doesnt change my feeling about Gordon, or ANY top WR option.

For example, last season Josh put up the following against the ONLY top 10 Pass Defenses they played last year : CIN and PIT

4/74

5/125/1

14/237/1

7/82/0

... And lest we forget that he put up 7/151/1 v Talib

Point is, your post makes sense... Not just for josh, but for ANY stud WR against an elite CB. But I take that chance, easily.

Also, I should mention, as good as Davis has been, IND is #25 in the league v the pass this season.

 
Soulfly3 said:
tdhartis, that's a great post, and I have admitted that Davis is an Elite CB.

But it doesnt change my feeling about Gordon, or ANY top WR option.

For example, last season Josh put up the following against the ONLY top 10 Pass Defenses they played last year : CIN and PIT

4/74

5/125/1

14/237/1

7/82/0

... And lest we forget that he put up 7/151/1 v Talib

Point is, your post makes sense... Not just for josh, but for ANY stud WR against an elite CB. But I take that chance, easily.

Also, I should mention, as good as Davis has been, IND is #25 in the league v the pass this season.
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All fair points and as I mentioned, everything should be considered, including his performance last year against CIN, PIT, and Talib. As for the bolded, I would imagine that's skewed by the fact that IND is frequently ahead and forcing teams to catch up through the air. Either way, the passing numbers certaintly aren't coming against Davis, and that is us Gordon owner's only concern.

I just think there's a good chance many Gordon owners may be otherwise stacked at the WR position since he was a late-round add or WW pickup for a number of teams. In one of my leagues, the Gordon owner has Megatron, Cobb, and T.Y. Hilton. In that situation or a comparable one, I think these type of concerns hold more weight and could be the determining factor in deciding to start or bench Gordon. At this point in the year a single down game can break a team's championship hopes and therefore volatility/risk is a bigger concern than in the regular season. With Hoyer's recent struggles and Vonta in play, I wouldn't blame an owner for starting a Cobb/Hilton type over him.

 
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Yes, I have Gordon in redraft and in dynasty

In redraft, he's w an WR corps w him, A Brown, AJ Green, Mike evans and Odell Beckham.

my flex is ALWAYS a choice between ODB and Evans (since 2 weeks ago, anyways)

 
The Man With No Name said:
If Hoyer plays like he has been, Manziel could start the 2nd half
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Starting Hoyer is a safe move for now... but I fully expect to see Manziel take the field in the 2nd half down 24-3.

Hoyer has been bad,,, real bad... like, QB-ranking 34th in the NFL bad.

I think Gordon will find the end zone twice in the 4th QTR on Sunday.

 
Sabertooth said:
Yeah his comeback has been kind of :yawn: I need him to produce one of those 12 catches 200 yard games. Now would be ideal for this.
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He's obviously capable of way more, and the TDs will come (TDs follow yards)

But as "yawn" as you say it's been, coming back cold turkey, he has the 8th most receiving yards over the past 2 weeks.

 
Sure hope Vontae Davis doesn't play this week. If he's out then his big game will occur this week.. If not - should still be fine but doubt he has a monster game

 
No Josh Cribbs today at practice. No sign yet of Vontae Davis or Mike Adams with individual drills beginning. T.Y. Hilton practicing
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Soulfly3 said:
Sabertooth said:
Yeah his comeback has been kind of :yawn: I need him to produce one of those 12 catches 200 yard games. Now would be ideal for this.
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He's obviously capable of way more, and the TDs will come (TDs follow yards)

But as "yawn" as you say it's been, coming back cold turkey, he has the 8th most receiving yards over the past 2 weeks.
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Yeah, I picked him up off the WW in all my leagues for my 17th (2nd to last pick) just before the season started. I was targeting Cody Lattimer for my 17th pick. So I traded Cody Lattimer to the WW for Josh Gordon.

Josh Gordon has already scored more points than Cody Lattimer and is in the running for the best 17th round pick ever.

:hifive:

 
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I've posted the link to this podcast a but I have done a slap-dash transcription of only part of it and Josh Gordon does not come off very good in it.

Here is a link to the pod and a quick dirty partial transcription of only a portion of the pod where they rip Josh Gordon and both of the Browns rookie RBs in explaining only one play where Gordon and the rookie back, Terrance West, screwed up for an incompletion that could have been a long gainer and potential TD.

LINK to the pod with a dirty partial transcription below so check out the pod to hear full details.

http://603brown.com/2014/12/03/atoz-the-manziel-hoyer-edition/

Andre and Zac talk Browns, quarterbacks, windows of opportunity and what happens when young, rich NFL players don’t get it

Dre- Half of their problems (at quarterback right now) is Josh Gordon.

Zac - They would go with Johnny Manziel unless they weren't 100% sure of his prepairedness.

Dre- We thought his time would come in September but it took till December and that he'd blow the door down but you have to work your butt off to start in the league. That tells me Johnny has not impressed the right people to start. They should have the reasons to start Johnny but they don't.

Zac- Is this the Browns protecting their investment or saying 'Oh Boy' we messed up on this one? (He thinks its because the team is on the precipiece of the playoffs and they owe it to the vets on the team to start Hoyer.)

Dre- Its a statement that they haven't made Johnny the starting quarterback.

Their was a slant, third and four/three.

The baby-backs are just lost, I mean they are lost. They don't know what the heck is going on right now. One is hurt the other one just can't hold onto the ball they should just sit his ### out, if you wanna make a statement Pettine. Terrance West should just watch in sweats... But that is a perfect example of what is wrong with the team.

　

It was third four/three. Motion to the left. the back is supposed to sheild off his guy, its a pick play but you can't call it a pick play. And you don't even have to rub, you just have to run in the right directions. Well the back is soo undiciplined that he runs too-wide. So he doesn't help Gordon and these are the things I wish people could see. So the back doesn't rub Gordon's guy so Gordon quits on the play and he doesn't run thru the slant hard.

In that situation their are three routes that Josh Gordon can run. One of them is the slant but last week Buffalo was jumping the slant. The safety saw that when Gordon took two steps their read was jump his ###. Well as soon as you jumped him he stopped freak'n running!

So the one play that everyone is #####ing and arguing with me about, you don't get the rub from the running back, immature kid at running back that's one point off. Gordon, if he just runs that route in front of the linebacker that's jumping him... that looks like a bad throw from Brian and I'm not a Brian Hoyer apologist I'm just trying to make sense of this for the dummies that don't get it. Some of you guys get it but you don't know what you're looking at.

Gordon halfasses it over the middle. The linebacker..so when the pass is thrown it goes to the linebackers knees and everyone goes. 'There's that innacurate Brian Hoyer'. NO! If Josh Gordon runs his ### of and runs in front of that linebacker with the corner trailing him their's a chance he goes sixty yards into the endzone he did against New England last year against Aquib Talib whose a great cornerback.

But instead its a terrible pass from Brian Hoyer. You walk off the field and everybody is looking at each other saying what the F just happened?
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As a Colts fan, this means that Greg Toler will be attempting to tackle Gordon from behind all game. I'll project 14/210/2 conservatively.

This will be a high scoring game, weather permitting.

 
BobbyLayne said:
iamkoza said:
good gordon reading... shocking stuff.... he doesnt know the offense! :o after missing 10 weeks how can he not know the new offense /sarcasm

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/12/josh_gordon_still_catching_up.html#incart_social_feature
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From the Dept of We Already Knew That:

"The terminology has changed even since training camp. I was definitely running the wrong routes a lot of times."
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I was also reading that Gordon has been staying after practice and putting in extra time with Hoyer. So there's that. I wonder if the team was allowed to provide him playbooks, tape, instruction etc during the suspension? If not, then I can see why he wouldn't be up to speed with the mid-season changes in the offense. I'm hoping the V. Davis news makes a difference. I got homeboy in both leagues.

 
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Yea, with V. Davis being out I've put Gordon back in my lineup. From all I've read the other corners are a step down. Should be fun to watch.

 
Maybe he breaks a couple records along the way?

350 yards, 6 TD's in an important game and potential shootout?

Probably not with Hoyer, but if Manziel steps in at the half... Lol

 
pizzatyme said:
As a Colts fan, this means that Greg Toler will be attempting to tackle Gordon from behind all game. I'll project 14/210/2 conservatively.

This will be a high scoring game, weather permitting.
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wish it was in INDY

 
iamkoza said:
good gordon reading... shocking stuff.... he doesnt know the offense! :o after missing 10 weeks how can he not know the new offense /sarcasm

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/12/josh_gordon_still_catching_up.html#incart_social_feature
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this is refreshing to read. I saw the same, but if the player doesn't recognize the error in his ways then there is no reason to believe he will make the appropriate adjustments. It's easy to point the finger and blame Hoyer if you're box score scouting, but Gordon is a big reason we lost to Buffalo and almost lost to Atlanta imho. He can't be making the same mistakes if we are to win Sunday.
 
Lots of moving parts here:

  • Vontae out.
  • QB situation this Sunday is unknown.
  • Crowell limited, West in the doghouse, Winston (?) may get carries.
  • Colts can jump to early lead.
  • Miles Austin is out, haven't really seen that discussed much, what does that do?
  • Gordon mis-running routes.
  • Gordon and Hoyer working together to fix the problems.
 
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