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WR Josh Gordon, KC (9 Viewers)

Saboo said:
I’m not saying Edelman is going to be a bust, but wr’s lose it overnight. I wouldn’t be shocked if he just isn’t the same guy he was the last time he played an NFL game that mattered. I hope the guy makes it back 100% but I wouldn’t bet my life on it.
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Plus he's off of PEDs now.

 
Anarchy99 said:
In some ways, Edelman not playing may actually have helped him. He hasn't played in 20 months. So he has taken less wear and tear than if he had played straight through to get to 32. Not sure we can conclude that he was terrible in preseason. I would say he got mixed reviews in camp.

I still think Edelman will have a short term far greater impact than Gordon. Brady has always liked a 3rd down security blanket, whether it be Welker, or Edelman, or Amendola as an Edelman fill in. Gordon may have a bigger NFL value than fantasy value, as defense will have to devote coverage to him even if he is not very involved. He may grow into more snaps a bigger role, but his upside to me is what Cooks was last year. Sort of a hit or miss deep threat (assuming Brady still has the arm to throw deeper downfield). Edelman to me will be a bigger impact moving the sticks and extending drives. At some point, Gordon may turn into a deep threat big play guy, but to me keeping drives alive and the defense off the field is a bigger priority than getting a 60 yard bomb and they score in 40 seconds.

And I openly question how much Gordon can absorb in a matter of weeks or months. IMO, his real impact would be next year once he settles in. They certainly could get some nice contributions this year later in the season, but he won't have full grasp of the offense this year. And it remains to be seen how well he works with Brady and if Brady trusts him. No one will be able to predict that with any certainty. One would hope that they get there at some point, but who knows when that is. Cooks was here a year and they didn't really click. It can take quite a while.

Gordon might be the most physically gifted receiver they have, but that doesn't automatically mean he is the guy best for their system and QB. I still think that will be Edelman. If Edelman is not his old self, I think it will show up in him catching a 6 yard pass and only falling for 8 or 9 yards instead of getting free for 18 yards. Even at 8 or 9 yards, that could be all they need if it was 3rd and 7 . . . and other than White they really have had that guy so far this season. So Edelman's numbers or yards per reception may drop, but I think the number of receptions and first downs he gets will make him NFL valuable. It wouldn't shock me at all if he had games with 9 catches and 55 yards to start. But that could be the difference in a three and out and getting a FG or a TD.

Bottom line, I think the NE offense is trending up. Gordon will get snaps. Edelman coming back. Michel getting accustomed to playing. White is still White. All those guys will free up space for Gronk, And then Hogan becomes the extra guy that allowed him to do well when he played the last couple of years. Then you can add in Dorsett and Patterson for extra receiver sets, game specific game plans, or situational formations and the offense will go back to scoring 30 points a game.
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This is really good stuff, and I generally agree with it as a Gordon backer. NE was probably the best place/bad option Gordon could go to have middling fantasy numbers rather than the other bad option, which was to have none at all. I'll actually be happy for Josh if he helps NE win a title and the system in place helps him personally, and that's saying a ####### lot.   

We disagreed gently in the Edelman thread, Anarchy99, but Edelman probably has a year or two of stick moving left in him. It's just not as great as I think you think it will be.  

 
Soulfly3 said:
Josh Gordon leads all Patriots players in 3rd down conversions in the month of September, with 2. 

:lol:

That's pretty funny. 
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Or it tells you that they're moving the chains on second down and their defense was the problem, which is more likely the case. 

Or something else. 

Josh Gordon, if he can stay on the field, will help the Patriots immeasurably. You've been right all along. 

Now let's find out whether that translates to fantasy, and who benefits from his impact.  

 
Dr. Octopus said:
Those rumors are not really relevant now. I don't have much more to say so good luck fading Gronk.
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I drafted Gronk in the second in my mainer and I'm fading him a bit, actually. He doesn't look right. It's not like he has no injury history, either.

eta* But the certitude here is a bit much. I'm more ambivalent, but still a fader.  

 
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Dr. Octopus said:
Those rumors are not really relevant now. I don't have much more to say so good luck fading Gronk.
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No rumor. Deal was in place, and Gronk threatened to retire killing the deal.

That was confirmed by Gronk (and I'm sure that just thrilled Belichik).

 
Dizzy said:
No rumor. Deal was in place, and Gronk threatened to retire killing the deal.

That was confirmed by Gronk (and I'm sure that just thrilled Belichik).
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It also means a DC that was close to the team wanted him. That also says something. 

It says the Hoodie's own guys wanted him badly.  

 
rockaction said:
I drafted Gronk in the second in my mainer and I'm fading him a bit, actually. He doesn't look right. It's not like he has no injury history, either.

eta* But the certitude here is a bit much. I'm more ambivalent, but still a fader.  
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right now he's dealing with a bad ankle and has seen consistent double and triple teams since the Pats have no help at WR at all.

 
Dr. Octopus said:
right now he's dealing with a bad ankle and has seen consistent double and triple teams since the Pats have no help at WR at all.
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Yep, and we normally totally agree, and I'm really in essential agreement with you about its importance, fantasy-wise. 

But it's still relevant to the issue.  

 
rockaction said:
Yep, and we normally totally agree, and I'm really in essential agreement with you about its importance, fantasy-wise. 

But it's still relevant to the issue.  
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I'm only addressing a comment that he would be the "odd man out" in the passing game - I wouldn't argue that he hasn't been disappointing a bit from a fantasy perspective. He has.

 
rockaction said:
This is really good stuff, and I generally agree with it as a Gordon backer. NE was probably the best place/bad option Gordon could go to have middling fantasy numbers rather than the other bad option, which was to have none at all. I'll actually be happy for Josh if he helps NE win a title and the system in place helps him personally, and that's saying a ####### lot.   

We disagreed gently in the Edelman thread, Anarchy99, but Edelman probably has a year or two of stick moving left in him. It's just not as great as I think you think it will be.  
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I don't have huge hopes, dreams, and aspirations for Edelman now or in future years. I have never been a huge Edelman fan in the past either fantasy wise.

Edelman is similar to White. They both have very important roles and have more NFL value than fantasy value. Edelman's fantasy value has been derived from being a target monster, just like the slot guys before him. That's a little misleading, as Edelman plays outside as well, but they still use him like he is Brady's binky and short yardage guy.

We can debate how much Edelman's skills have declined due to age, injuries, his knee, and getting off the juice. That's all open for discussion. But I think a lot of his routes are strategic and not just skill based. Bubble screens, finding holes in zone coverage, mismatches, putting him in motion, rub routes, etc. based on where they tactically get him the ball and there isn't a lot the defense can do to prevent it. The skill part happens once he gets the ball. Will he be able to slip the first tackler? Will he have the speed to get around the corner? Does he have the burst to slide between two tacklers?

I think people are underselling the importance that Brady trusts him and he is his go to guy. Hogan, Dorsett, and Patterson are not in that circle of trust, and Gordon after two weeks couldn't possibly be. That's reserved for Edelman, Gronk, and White.

The biggest concern for Edelman has always been can he stay healthy. Players don't start getting healthier into their 30's. For fantasy purposes, he'll probably be a PPR fantasy WR2 with an occasional WR1 week and an occasional WR3 mixed in.

He will probably play out his contract (this year and next year) and they will move on. Who knows beyond that what the state of NE will be at that point (QB? coach? roster?).

 
Dr. Octopus said:
I'm only addressing a comment that he would be the "odd man out" in the passing game - I wouldn't argue that he hasn't been disappointing a bit from a fantasy perspective. He has.
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Yeah, that's why we essentially agree. Single coverage, and he's still hitting projections, but other teams, and their old DC, finally figured out that a linebacker or safety can't cover him singly. What happens when Gordon takes the top off and Edelman is underneath is a problem for the league to determine. 

If they continue to double-team Gronk, which I think they will given the Detroit game and Gordon's newness and penchant for running freelance routes, then fade Gronk a bit. 

But just a bit.  

 
Anarchy99 said:
I don't have huge hopes, dreams, and aspirations for Edelman now or in future years. I have never been a huge Edelman fan in the past either fantasy wise.

We can debate how much Edelman's skills have declined due to age, injuries, his knee, and getting off the juice. That's all open for discussion. But I think a lot of his routes are strategic and not just skill based. Bubble screens, finding holes in zone coverage, mismatches, putting him in motion, rub routes, etc. based on where they tactically get him the ball and there isn't a lot the defense can do to prevent it. The skill part happens once he gets the ball. Will he be able to slip the first tackler? Will he have the speed to get around the corner? Does he have the burst to slide between two tacklers?

I think people are underselling the importance that Brady trusts him and he is his go to guy. Hogan, Dorsett, and Patterson are not in that circle of trust, and Gordon after two weeks couldn't possibly be. That's reserved for Edelman, Gronk, and White.
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I didn't think you did have huge hopes or aspirations, and have always appreciated your takes on the Pats. I get to watch them because my family loves them and I don't -- so I get to keep a hateful rival/objective eye towards them. I'm really actually impressed with the roster they've assembled this year. I think it's the best since '07, a year in which I thought they got hit by a train in that last week/SB. (I think Coughlin really does have their number, in a sense. I think if he's on the Jaguar sidelines last year, the Jags are in the SB easily, but that's an aside. No coincidence that, in general -- and I mean in general -- their worst losses come at his hands.)  

So yeah, Brady trusts Edelman and that's huge and can't be understated. Edelman will get his, but it might be more in a football sense than in a fantasy sense, as you pointed out. I think this year is reversed positionally; the Pats WRs are like their RBs of the past. White and Michel are their guys at RB. Gronk, Edelman, Gordon, Hogan, Dorsett, Patterson fight for WR scraps. 

But one thing: It's going to be nuts come Week 8 (if Gordon stays on the field and Gronk stays healthy).  

 
rockaction said:
But one thing: It's going to be nuts come Week 8 (if Gordon stays on the field and Gronk stays healthy).  
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While he would never admit to it, I honestly think BB likes nothing better than to lose some games early in the season. He is not a big fan of easy success, as it fills his team with thoughts that they will win just by showing up and therefore won't have to work hard. Once his team gets grounded, then he can work on getting them to fix things that need correcting. It's hard to coach guys that they have weaknesses when they are 8-0 and winning by 20 points (against an easy schedule). The we-can-win-simply-by-showing-up mentality doesn't often translate into crunch time wins on the road in bad weather in places like PIT, KC, or DEN.

We agree that their offensive skill position players are their best in 10 years. I also posted that earlier in one of the Pats threads.

 
Anarchy99 said:
While he would never admit to it, I honestly think BB likes nothing better than to lose some games early in the season.
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Yep, I agree that he likes coachable players -- as does everybody -- but he really drills it home. Parcells guy. Coughlin too. Now that was a coaching tree.  

And as for the ten years, they were supposedly done against Detroit (again) but just went out and won 38-7 against 3-0 Miami -- and they were taking their foot way off the pedal by late third quarter. It's gonna be ugly for the NFL and for us Jets fans when they finally get going this year.  And that's not pessimist talk. I think that as a football fan. 

I do think, however, so I don't Jekyll-and-Hyde too much, that you're underrating Michel. He looks good, and I only roster him in one league, so it's not too rosy-eyes of an outlook. Looks good, to me, hitting holes and getting four YPC. He's a lot better than what they've had, and their first-rounder worked out well if he's healthy.  

Regardless, this has to do with Gordon because there might just be too many mouths on this team for WR1 or WR2, fantasy-wise, unless injuries or Moss happens. That's my two cents.  

 
Bazinga! said:
:unsure:
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:lmao:

I know you're the counter Soulfly, but there's truth in both of you guys. It's the old "somewhere in the middle the 'twain shall meet." 

We take all of it with a grain of salt.  

I think Anarchy's take has been the best about Josh Gordon and his fantasy situation in NE, and I'll limit it to that.  

 
Bazinga! said:
Right all along though?  Even you have to admit that is a major stretch
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Yeah, that was probably poor wording and appeasement. He's been wrong a lot. Well, almost always.  

I think most of us trying to suss out Gordon on the board know he's schtick and you're anti-schtick. I don't think he means what he says, and can deal with it when he's wrong. I personally root for Gordon, though, and roster him where I can, often to my detriment. But I don't play for big money, only for a semblance of gambling action on Sundays to keep them interesting. But fantasy has kept me up with football on the offensive (and now defensive) side of the football for a while, and I appreciate all that goes along with it. It's a fun hobby.  

Nothing wrong with either of your guys' schtick and anti-schtick. Provides good fun for those that follow it. Would I give his advice to the novice or the gambler? No. But I take it where it lays, as they say.  

 
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Which leads me to ask? If you play for big money, where would you have rostered Gordon this year? I wouldn't have done it until the sixth or seventh in most formats. Just curious what your risk-taking/risk-averse strategy is when there's real quid on the line.  

 
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Soulfly3 said:
im never wrong

Just temporarily not right. 
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If he helps them, and is integral part of them winning a Super Bowl, were you right about fantasy, though? 

Or just sorta maligned in that the world never saw your own perceptive greatness of his greatness? 

eta* You liked him four years when you saw him in that club before he was big!  

 
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Bazinga! said:
I do play high dollar, but mostly dynasty.  In my one redraft league, I had him just about like you.  Late 6th or early 7th but only if the draft went well enough that I thought I could endure a wasted pick (If that is what it ended up being)
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Yeah, real quid said fifth-round pick and we can replace you with Callaway. 

I take evaluators seriously, so that scares me. Then again, it's Cleveland...

 
rockaction said:
Which leads me to ask? If you play for big money, where would you have rostered Gordon this year? I wouldn't have done it until the sixth or seventh in moh roundst formats. Just curious what your risk-taking/risk-averse strategy is when there's real quid on the line.  
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I took him at 5.04 in a $250 entry league. I would generally be more risk adverse but I looked at it as a potential league winning pick. As I look back at that draft now maybe it wasn't as risky as it seemed as the rest of the fifth round has more misses than hits: Robinson, Carson, Brady, Gordon, Wilson, Lynch, Hyde, Hogan, Henry, Crabtree, Brees and Engram.

 
Dr. Octopus said:
I took him at 5.04 in a $250 entry league. I would generally be more risk adverse but I looked at it as a potential league winning pick. As I look back at that draft now maybe it wasn't as risky as it seemed as the rest of the fifth round has more misses than hits: Robinson, Carson, Brady, Gordon, Wilson, Lynch, Hyde, Hogan, Henry, Crabtree, Brees and Engram.
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See, that also makes sense. Entirely logical explanation. I'm just curious where people who are playing for decent money are or did take him. I took him early in casual leagues, but that was ease, largesse, and rooting interest.  

Then again, maybe it's not so cheap. I own him in every league I'm in.  :bag:

 
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rockaction said:
Which leads me to ask? If you play for big money, where would you have rostered Gordon this year? I wouldn't have done it until the sixth or seventh in most formats. Just curious what your risk-taking/risk-averse strategy is when there's real quid on the line.  
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I was taking Gordon in either the 5th or 6th round early.  Later it was closer to the 4th. 

 
He is tentatively my flex this week but I will probably switch him out for Mark Ingram.

Both are high upside but "let's see what they do" kind of guys.

They are both flex options because I, apparently whiffed big time on Drake. I have other options, with big upside, of course but...they just aren't as much fun to make a spec play on.

 
Chaka said:
He is tentatively my flex this week but I will probably switch him out for Mark Ingram.

Both are high upside but "let's see what they do" kind of guys.

They are both flex options because I, apparently whiffed big time on Drake. I have other options, with big upside, of course but...they just aren't as much fun to make a spec play on.
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Gronk might be out tomorrow, according to Rotoworld. Listed as questionable, word around Foxboro is that he's not playing. Might be interesting to see Gordon on Thursday.  

 
I really want Gronk to play. I would consider starting Gordon in a couple spots if Gronk plays. Mostly I just want to see them all on the field at the same time. 

 
Edelman coming back is money for Gordon.  My concern, if I owned him, which I do not, is whether he is healthy.  Seems like he has a hammy issue. Which is the worst for receivers.  They linger.  

 
Looks like Gronk is playing tonight according to Schefter, Pats will be rolling out all their weapons. First regular season game since 2006 that Edelman and Gronk are both playing. I think Gordon puts up some points tonight. Plus, even though it was McDaniel and the Pats that screwed over the Colts, you just know the Pats are looking to sweep the leg tonight. 

 
Faust said:
Patriots-Dolphins Film Review: How Was Josh Gordon Used In Debut?
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Nesn piece. I thought this was a pretty good article.

18 snaps, 12 were passes, 2 of the 12 were targets to JG but there were 2 more of the 12 which he was targeted on but not logged as such because of penalties. One of those 2 he was bumped in his route, and another he dropped the pass.

Gordon ran three slants, three in-routes, three comebacks, a deep route, an out and a post. He also worked as a run blocker on six plays. He helped spring James White into the end zone on the running back’s 22-yard touchdown run.

...— Dolphins cornerback Bobby McCain gave Gordon a large cushion off the line of scrimmage on third-and-6 from Miami’s 16-yard-line. Gordon was Brady’s first read, and he made a tough contested catch with Dolphins linebacker Jerome Baker crossing over his sightline. Gordon shed an arm tackle and powered forward to the 3-yard line.

— Gordon got another large cushion from Dolphins cornerback Torry McTyer on third-and-3 from the Patriots’ 17-yard line. He caught another pass on a slant route, spun to avoid a head-on tackle, broke two tackles and powered through for a 19-yard gain. Brady ran up applaud Gordon after the effort on his second catch.
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Here's the video of the 2 catches.

- One was in the red zone, a slant towards the end zone, nice catch in traffic, stopped at the 2. BB may have a specific use in mind for JG and his size near the EZ which might look different than what we saw in CLE. - Belichick inevitably sees very specific uses for players' skill sets that other teams did not see or utilize.

- The other catch is somewhat remarkable, it's a simple pattern but Gordon breaks 2 tackles and has to be dragged down by Mia's back defenders. This is an exciting play out of nothing.

 
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I have stopped thinking and am going by rankings. Gordon is higher than Callaway this week. Starting him. It's out of my hands football Gods.

 
Jordy Nelson or Josh Gordon 

Both starting corners are out for Indy.  Indy has to try to take out Gronk #1 (LB/safety help?), Edelman #2 .... So a #5 DB covering Gordon? Can't double everyone... But NE kills Indy historically with the run.  

Jordy Nelson has been seeing an uptick in targets.  The Raiders are playing the Chargers at LA.  Probably will be playing from behind.   

I hate Thursday starts. ....

 
Hairy Snowman said:
Jordy Nelson or Josh Gordon 

Both starting corners are out for Indy.  Indy has to try to take out Gronk #1 (LB/safety help?), Edelman #2 .... So a #5 DB covering Gordon? Can't double everyone... But NE kills Indy historically with the run.  

Jordy Nelson has been seeing an uptick in targets.  The Raiders are playing the Chargers at LA.  Probably will be playing from behind.   

I hate Thursday starts. ....
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Exact decision I'm grappling with. Playing a low ceiling looking team so I may stick with Jordy and see what Gordon does on my bench. Other pertinent info: I start Brady and Gronk in this league (no, not a Pats fan, just weird dynasty coincidences)

 
I'm benching Gordon.  Just can't start him until I see how much his role expands from getting only 18 snaps last week.  I'd rather him blow up on my bench than take a chance at getting only a couple points from a WR on a Thursday.

Injuries and byes have me starting some combination of Agholor, Callaway, and Collins over him, but it's the choice I'm making.

I really wish I had the balls to start him though.  Just too many options and too much of a chance that his role is still limited.

 
ConnSKINS26 said:
Exact decision I'm grappling with. Playing a low ceiling looking team so I may stick with Jordy and see what Gordon does on my bench. Other pertinent info: I start Brady and Gronk in this league (no, not a Pats fan, just weird dynasty coincidences)
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Everyone is looking for Michel to have a big game but the Pats haven't had back to back 100 yard rushers since Robert Edwards in 1997.  Not that it couldn't happen.  Seems most likely. Especially with all the injuries to the Colts WRs.  

But then there is Hines.  He is a wild card to me.  I like Frank Riech as an offensive mind.  

I am not helping myself.  If Gordon was healthy I would not be thinking about it. 

 
Gordon's Yahoo projections are higher than any other receiver I have; therefore, Gordon.  

Starting him over Boyd, Baldwin, and Edelman. 

I'm on the train.  

Choo Choo! (Let's hope it's not the one Casey Jones is driving)

 
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Luck is getting his starting LT back for the first time this season.  That is his blind side.  His WRs may be inexperienced, but they are all faster than the Pats DBs.  

I think the pats are going to try to run the ball.  I don't think they are passing much unless the Colts get out ahead by more than a TD. 

Gordon's production (IMO) hinges on whether Indy can get a lead.

 
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