I know some injuries can affect people differently, but you gotta think about this mechanically. A fracture isn't going to sap someone's athleticism. Soft tissue injuries, sure. But the notion that these fractures have altered him... well, I just don't buy it. And eyeball tests from his first 4 games in the NFL are worth nothing to me.
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WR Kevin White, NO (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Faust
- Start date
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
It's not like he looked slow out there in those games. He just looked like a guy that didn't know how to use his athleticism.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
There should be nothing that means more in his evaluation. Means a lot more to me than a good year and combine two years ago.
Also I forgot to add his injury that knocked him out his rookie year was not a break, it was a soft issue injury.
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Lott's Fingertip
Footballguy
They are both really good athletically (by measurables). White had a much better 40, but Meredith bested him in most other measures fairly handily.
White:
4.35 40
36.5 vert
123 broad
6.92 3 cone
4.14 20 yd shuttle
Meredith:
4.49 40
39 vert
127 broad
6.71 3 cone
4.12 20 yd shuttle
Interseptopus
Footballguy
White is a little meatier with about 15 pounds on Meredith. White is the higher upside pick, as he is always hurt and no one knows how well he will do. Meredith will be the safer pick. I think both are relatively valuable TBH. I will probably try to target White because I think he has higher upsideLott's Fingertip said:
Interseptopus
Footballguy
menobrown said:
You are aware that he had a stress fracture that required surgery to insert a rod into his left tibia because it was not healing? That is not soft tissue.
He then fractured his left fibula the following season- did not fracture the tibia because he had a rod in there, otherwise he may have hurt that as well.
Definitely not soft tissue.
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Bears originally thought his issue was a shin bruise, not a fracture which I just assumed had worsened to a fracture and required surgery. I guess maybe they just misdiagnosed him in the first place, always had a stress fracture and not a shin bruise. I did not own him his rookie season so my bad, was not keeping up with updates just knew he had a surgery he could not recover from in time after originally being told it as a shin bruise.
You are aware that he had a stress fracture that required surgery to insert a rod into his left tibia because it was not healing? That is not soft tissue.
He then fractured his left fibula the following season- did not fracture the tibia because he had a rod in there, otherwise he may have hurt that as well.
Definitely not soft tissue.
But I own him now and I owned him last year and call it whatever you want but I did not see the same athlete that entered the league.
Reality is if you he was a mid round draft pick and last year was all we saw of him no one would be talking about him.
I still think he can rebound, I'm still holding and I'd buy cheap, but I'm more pessimistic than optimistic.
Not a doctor, so...what makes brittle bones so much better a risk than soft tissue?
You are aware that he had a stress fracture that required surgery to insert a rod into his left tibia because it was not healing? That is not soft tissue.
He then fractured his left fibula the following season- did not fracture the tibia because he had a rod in there, otherwise he may have hurt that as well.
Definitely not soft tissue.
The combine means next to nothing to me. But then again eyeball tests (even my own) also mean next to nothing to me. Someone with a trained eye (Harmon/Waldman) would of course be helpful here.menobrown said:
As for your comment about if he was a mid-round pick, I agree there would be little talk. But even if he was an unheralded mid round pick, if that guy had a definite starting job opposite Meredith, he'd still be worth a flyer. Right now he's going a round or two after Meredith. And we all know that draft pedigree does have a correlation (although admittedly not incredibly strong) with success, so it would be foolish to ignore it.
If you were racing a car, would you rather break and rebuild the axle or the engine? Hamstring injuries killed Miles Austin's career. An achilles injury turned Mikel LeShoure into a plodder. Muscles and tendons are how you move. Think of them as a sliding scale. If they start to degrade, you slow down. Bones just support your muscles and tendons. Think of this as a binary item. Either they work or they don't. As long as a bone doesn't break, it doesn't matter if one guy's bones are twice as strong as another guy's bones. It won't make him any faster or stronger.
To me, two fractures = concerning... but it could just be a freak coincidence. I'm willing to gamble that he doesn't have glass bones. Now a guy like Jeffrey who can't stop injuring his soft tissue, to me that's more concerning. But the additional rub on White is that he's an unknown. His college tape got him drafted really high and has led to him having a starting spot handed to him on a silver platter, but we don't know how it'll translate. And I don't think his first 4 games in the NFL on a dysfunctional/transitioning offense (2 games with Cutler, 2 games with Hoyer) is enough to judge him on.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Does he have brittle bones? He had a stress fracture, which is actually common. It didn't heal, which is odd but sometimes they don't. He had an impact injury that resulted in his fibula breaking, probably would have had a Tyler Lockett sort of injury if he did not have his tibia previously repaired
Mariota and Carr had the same broken bone last year... no one is talking about them having brittle bones
Brittle bone diseases, or conditions that would result in a more brittle bone, are highly unlikely in this case because he wouldn't have made it to the NFL or even been able to play athletics in general. So we can cross that off the list.
What can happen, in people who use steroids/steroid agents, is you can develop more fractures of bones and strains/tears of soft tissue. I think it's reasonable to say that's probably more likely than some bone disease or condition. However I wouldn't go as far as to say that he has used steroids in his past. I'm a cynical guy when it comes to professional athletes and steroid use. According to an artcile in 2013 from SBNation, it was estimated about 10-15 players on each team (back then) were using HGH and about 20-30 percent were using a banned substance. So I suppose it's possible. But I won't get into tossing out ridiculous accusations without any evidence whatsoever.
What is the most likely scenario is he had a stress fracture from mini camp, doing a lot more rigorous activities than he's used to, it never healed for whatever reason. Then, coincidentally, he had an impact injury to the same leg that resulted in a fracture of the bone.
I'd say he just has bad luck.
I have no stock in White. I don't care if he does well or not. I actually don't even have an opinion on his outlook yet. It just irks me when people stay at a Holiday Inn Express and make claims about someone's health/recovery/injuries when really the facts and science don't back up their claims. It's these moments I think someone with a background is great to have in your back pocket or on a forum somewhere to set the record straight to some extent.
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steelers1080
Footballguy
He had a bone bruise. This is when the bone is bleeding. It's serious sh**. It's also more similar to a fracture than it is to a soft tissue injury.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
I wouldn't say it's serious. A break is more serious. Bones bleed when they break. Which is more serious: A torn muscle or a bruised muscle?
Bone bruises just take a very long time to heal (months)
Often times what might show up as a bone bruise on an x-ray can actually be a stress fracture. It is not until much later if it has not improved at all (after initial inflammation has decreased) that a stress fracture can be diagnosed. It stands to reason it would be logical to assume Chicago thought it was a bruise and were unable to completely diagnose it until later when the inflammation had decreased, exposing the stress fracture.
Highly unlikely a bone bruise progressed to a stress fracture with rest.
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steelers1080
Footballguy
My understanding of it is 100% from Stephania Bell, but I thought that a Bone Bruise could take much longer to heal than a clean break.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Clean breaks take a very long time to completely heal. I outlined this in the Dez Bryant thread, I think around page 47? I'm not sure. I've requotted that statement many times, but breaks can take 6-12 months to completely remodel.
Bone bruises can take about 6-8 months to heal. So yes, the pain can last longer with a bone bruise versus a broken bone which can feel pretty good after 4-6 weeks depending on the break.
I think in the end, we are somewhat debating semantics/technicalities and are likely both correct. I wouldn't' say a bone bruise is serious business, but I would agree that it can take a very long time to go away and feel better versus a break takes a long time to heal but can feel better sooner.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
I dont get this recent blurb.....is the mystery good or bad???
Boone22
Footballguy
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I'm not ready to take it that far yet but I'm certainly not ready to draft him on any of my teams this year.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Fortunately for those of us that draft near or at the end of preseason, we can wait and see what happens. I have no idea what to think of White at this point.
BigTex
Don't mess with Texas
Haha, wtf? Why did that guy think that piece was worth writing? To save everyone some time, this is the premise:
He goes on to list four players drafted between 1983-2001. So, different GMs in a different era. Irrelevant article.
JoeSteeler
Footballguy
Oh, I know, I wasn't giving you a hard time - just the author. I guess it's June...
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Biabreakable
Footballguy
The main axoim that has been reinforced for me by Whites college and pro career thus far is to be cautious of college players with only one good season.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
This is just a media story that's typically taken out of context. They watched film of more than just him. Here's a quote from him after practice yesterday.
"As far as the college film, that was amongst players: me, Kendall Wright and Victor Cruz," White said. "It was actually Kendall's idea to watch each other's college film since we had a little time off. Watched mine, then watched Kendall's, then watched Victor Cruz, when he was with the Giants. As far as that goes, that's all I know."
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Nothing wrong with being cautious but some take it too far. Cam Newton and Russell Wilson only had one good year in college. There are plenty more over the years as well.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Yeah thats why I called it an axiom. There are always exceptions.
Maybe the split is closer than I think in regards to this, who are some successful NFL WR who had only one good college season? How many of them had more than one good college season?
I'm not entirely sure about that, I just know I ding a college prospect if they only have one good college season a bit compared to college WR who have more than one good college season.
I have been applying this reasoning in player evaluations for awhile now. It bothered me with White but I still ranked him very high because of other factors.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
White had a few issues: 1 year of college production and at a rather late age. It's one thing to break out for 1 season when you are 20 and another when you are 22. Also a lot of the tape guys seemed to indicate he was raw, was mostly either running straight down field on fly patterns or just getting WR screens.
Russell Wilson was a 4 year college starter that before he ever went to Wisconsin racked up 8500 yards, 76 TDs in the air, 1000 yards and 17 TDs on the ground. You are right Cam only had 1 season of real college football, but he was the best player in the country and had one of the best QB seasons in history.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Does Randy Moss count? He only had one year at Marshall but I think he was at some smaller school before that because he had some issues.
Kevin White started two years at WVU in his JR and Sr year. Just because only one year was really good doesn't mean he doesn't have any experience. There are some great WRs that only played two years. The difference is that these other guys started their FR and SO years before entering the draft so obviously it's a pretty big difference. I haven't been able to find enough data yet to see how many WRs only had a good SR season and went on to be a good NFL WR.
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BigTex
Don't mess with Texas
Everyone has some valid points on the one year production argument but White's struggles to this point is injury not talent which we've yet to see because of his injuries have kept him off the field to this point. If he had been healthy since being drafted and he wasn't able to get on the field then I can see how White fits into the argument but at this point it's been injuries.
:twocents:
Carry on gentlemen,
Tex
:twocents:
Carry on gentlemen,
Tex
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Sure that would be one.
I don't feel like looking them all up right now. Maybe @ZWK or someone who has this information more handy could shed some light on this with less effort.
For me this is one of like 50 or so different tie breakers that when looking at two players side by side, I am going to trust the player who has more than one good college season over the player who only has one.
Hankmoody
Footballguy
Moss doesn't really count. He was a stud recruit that just couldn't behave himself. White is a guy that came out of nowhere to register a monster final college season.
