This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
So, Eli had the most attempts of a career, the most completions of his career, his highest single season completion %, 2nd highest yardage total, 2nd highest TD total, second lowest INT total, lowest INT rate, and he didn't have a great year?
Jeffery had 145 targets last year and Marshall's 106 targets are gone. Wilson and Bennett will pick up some of the slack but Jeffery is in line for an increase in targets.
He also had a new offensive coordinator that brought in a quality system playing to Eli's strengths. Anyone who watched the Giants last year knows that the team faltered a lot, especially early on. Like I said, Eli's final numbers look strong because he played with Odell, not the other way around.
Even as an owner, this gives me some pause. Always has.
don't you think some of that is the result of beckham and a different offense?
This is my problem with this argument as well... I said last year in a thread, might have been this one? Or maybe it was the Comeback PoY thread that Eli would have the best statistical season of his career. Simply because I felt that Gilbride has always been a horrible system for his talents. I felt like the West Coast offense played a lot more to his strengths as well as the WRs strengths. Looking at his stats now, I'd say that was fairly accurate. In only his first season in the McAddo system he posted arguably his best season as a pro. He posted a 63% Comp, 4400 yards, 30 TDs and 14 INTs. It was tied for the lowest INTs he's thrown his entire career except in 2008 when he only threw 10 INTs. Only difference being he attempted about 130 less passes in 2008 than last year.
I wouldn't say it was a perfect storm, people apply too much correlation to College Production equaling pro production. Which is often not the case, if anything often college production leads to nothing in the NFL. Andre Williams was the leading NCAA running back in 2013, he wasn't even close to the first back to comeoff the board in the draft. Lets do a case study... here are the top WRS from each year from the past decade of NCAA play, you tell me how many pro bowlers appear.
as long as we both agree that this is 197% not my argument, ok.
Do I think Beckham will make a career out of averaging like 150 yards and 2 TDs a game as he did over the final stretch of last year? No, obviously not. That said, I see him as a year to year 80rec 1500+ yard 10+ TD guy, definitely. He's just too dynamic in space and too smooth in his routes to not get open consistently. He's not a guy that teams will "learn to defend", he's a player similar to Antonio Brown who is just so fluid and quick with him moves that it's really impossible to cover him every play. He's bound to blow out any corner several times a game.Soulfly3 said:
I suppose so. I follow the logic of it but just to examine the flip side of that coin, how often do QBs that have been in the league a decade dramatically improve? If anything, they tend to regress as they learn the new stuff. If he were a second or third year QB and there was something about correcting things, sure. And it's Eli Manning, who has shown a pattern of being really good when he's on a good streak and really bad when he's not. And...it's Eli Manning. You don't think he of all people has access to people that might tell him a thing or two about playing QB? If it were a pure System thing, then I guess we will find out in pre-season because the NFl is a copycat league and if an OC can dramatically improve a 2-time SuperBowl winning QB, then I imagine there will be 31 other teams running his "system" this year.Kool-Aid Larry said:
the allure of a guy who pops off elite numbers isn't that he can average peak production, it's that if he settles into 75% of that as an average then he's still great to own.Soulfly3 said:
I think the norm is what he has done over this career.Kool-Aid Larry said:
Given health, there is next to zero percent chance this happens. Beckham is not going to average 4 catches a game. To have a playmaker of that caliber, and not use him more than that would be insane. After last year's bye, the least amount of catches he had in a game was 6.
well, all these copycat teams have had plenty of chances to run this "system" following the success of bill walsh 30 years ago, if you don't feel like going back even further, so I'm not sure why ben mcadoo and eli manning would be starting any revolution.
You missed an entire half of his argument. The only part you're arguing here is Beckham. His argument and mine is that it wasn't Beckham that caused Eli to see a better season, but McAdoo. The argument was what is this norm you're expecting Eli to settle back into? He saw an upgrade in his offensive coordinator trading out Gilbride for McAdoo and an upgrade in his WR talent with Beckham.
No, Beckham Eli and McAdoo are creating this new style of offense. It's not the West Coast it's called hte East Coast offense... and it'll sweep the nation!
if you read the cutler thread you will learn that int's are rarely the fault of the passer.
Might not be a top 10 WR next year, let alone top 10 pick.
You missed my point. Eli's stats year were compiled, more so than improved upon recent years. He had comparable statsto his career averages, except for the INT numbers, and the attempts. And untill Jennings got hurt, he wasn't on pace to throw nearly as much as he ended up having to. I don't know if he will throw as much next year.
Huh? How was last year comaprable in any way to his career averages?
I don't understand what kind of sense this is supposed to make
I am not sure where you are getting those averages since his career completion % is 59.0% and his 9 games as a rookie was 48.2%. That said, if you look at the last 6 years, his totals are much closer to last year.
Real NFL QB, coaching? Who knows. We saw what we saw, and we saw a stud who is only gonna be derailed by injury or mental illness.Soulfly3 said:
Seriously. Was he or wasn't he the best WR in football for most of last year? College is irrelevant (also 12th overall not like he's some udfa)
We all know how talented he is so there must be some explanation why he never had a TD against a ranked team in college.
There really doesn't need to be... he was a highly touted prospect coming out of college. He was sky rocketing up draft boards leading up to the draft because of his physical gifts. He grew up playing football with the Manning's in the summer. He considers Shaq an Uncle. This kid has had sport greatness around him his entire life and to boot is one of the best athletic specimens in the game and that was before he was even drafted. You act like he was a 3rd round pick and did what he did. He was highly touted for his athletic ability and refined route running. All he did last year was show everyone that the things listed under his strengths prior to the draft last year were true; big hands, smooth refined route runner, immense athletic ability. I think a lot of people forget how big of a deal route running is and how being an elite route runner can make you unstoppable. Hell, Jerry Rice made an entire career based solely on his hands and route running. Imagine if you gave Jerry Rice OBJs athletic gifts? There are A LOT of factors that can contribute to someone being a not so productive college player but an amazing NFL player and we see them every year.
And the 2015 Award for Putting BS Words into Someone's Mouth goes to...
The completion percentage is very likely a result if the new offense. In fact all offseason they stated the goal of the new offense was to increase Manning's completion percentage. The new offense is a variation of a WCO while Gilbride was more of a downfield passer.Kool-Aid Larry said:
I don't think it was a "dramatic" improvement if you look at many of his other seasons. The "lowest" amount of interceptions were in fact tied for the second lowest total in actuality for one thing (so he actually had a season with less and another season with the same) and the improvement in completion % was expected.
It didn't come out of nowhere. Again, his 2009-2012 seasons weren't really that far removed from 2014 (some were better in some spots). I think the 2013 horror show really tainted everyone's view of Eli and made them forget how the prior four seasons he had taken that jump from his first 5 seasons. He went from mediocre to being good, but below the top QBs to horrific in 2013, back to good+ again.
Yep, just look at the numbers I posted above. His 2014 really wasn't all that different from what he averaged the prior 5 years (especially when you remove the 2013 fiasco).
Interesting. Gurley / Cooper / x vs OBJ. I still think I slide with OBJ there especially if it was PPR.
The answer to your 2nd question is yes, obviously we evaluate prospects every year. Obviously the NFL does also, and they saw past any possible reason for OBJ not scoring a TD against a ranked team and made him a high pick in the NFL draft.
You are probably correct. Some college coaches get by on recruiting alone and compete/win despite their actual abilities. Way back before I moved and before I started to loathe Jerry Jones, I actually like the Cowboys. I look at Barry Switzer and Jimmy Johnson as two guys with lots of college success and SB wins, but there is no way anyone could ever convince me that Jimmie Johnson wasn't a way better "coach" than Switzer. Some guys can get the talent together and win because of the talent and some guys can pull talent together and make that talent better. Miles is likely the former, not the latter.
I'm as big a Giants homer as there is....but no, this is not correct. Eli has a high ceiling (see playoffs), and has had some years where he was very good, but I would say that in a typical year, Eli is an average QB, with a ceiling of being very good.
The goal of the new offense was to improve on the completion percentage. They still take shots down field. Things were simplified for the WRs. Gilbride had complicated reads for the WR and he mentioned several times that it took about 2-3 seasons for WRs to learn his offense. That really sucks for younger players, especially if they miss time with injuries.
CSTU gone fly fishing.
