Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Where did you hear this buzz? Most reports have him not even making the team.the lone star said:
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WR Phillip Dorsett, HOU (1 Viewer)
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saintfool
Dead sexy
they didn't pick up his 2019 option, which is something of a signal. i feel like he's been given plenty of opportunities with legit QBs in productive offenses. he's done very little with those opportunities.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I’m sure if he ever got away from bum QBs like Luck and Brady he’d be fine.JohnnyU said:
Wrong- He's opportunistic, crafty type. He's not cat quick like Edelman but he's a pain in the neck slot guy just the same.
Cooks was a luxury. The Pats haven't exactly regularly had a burner that could get over the top of defenses with regularity.
(Ignoring the slot for a sec) This is what I don't like of the whole Dorsett line of thinking. Pats WRs are smart. I wouldn't call them the best athletes like other teams usually have but geesh they're so well trained and disciplined. I think this is a tangent that BB won't fulfill for you guys. It feels more like those that thought old Ocho would be Moss II in this offense. BB isn't going to "kick a gift horse in the mouth" but this even goes back to his time with the Jets, Giants, and Browns- he strongly prefers an intelligent, disciplined WR. Deion Branch was "his guy" in my opinion.
I'm being short here and obviously the slot and TE have gotten a ton of work under BB.
I've never seen Dorsett use his speed wisely. It's full tilt and that's it. Ted Ginn and plenty of others in NFL history have made a career out of being long ball types. There is a place for them, but until Dorsett learns to bait defenders and use the speed to get to a spot and all that...he's limited IMO. And on a BB team, there will definitely be a guy that knows how to get to a spot and set defenders up so I only see his value as the occasional deep guy. He may play a lot of downs to drag some cornerback deep on a run play, but target wise I don't see it. This simply isn't the ol Raiders and it's not Houston with a speed guy opposite DeAndre or the bad years for this group of Steelers with a speed guy opposite Antonio. BB is very much not like that.
The Pats drafted two WRs and had Thompkins years ago. They looked like they were going to have a huge transition at WR and maybe even with their offense after the Hernandez stuff. None of those WRs are probably in the league, none panned out, and BB stayed exactly the same. He's got a gazillion years experience of being successful with smart WRs and I've been burned any time I expected him to do differently so I'm not falling for it this time.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
cloppbeast
Footballguy
A lot of negativity on here about Dorsett, nobody's giving him a chance. But he came into the league as a talented player who needed to learn how to play receiver. He may have struggled so far, but maybe he's just a late bloomer. I watched the 3rd pre season game to see if I can tell if he's any good.
He played most of the passing plays with the 1st team, maybe all of them. Patterson came in for runs and then with the 2nd team. It seems to me like Dorsett gets it. He can set up defenders. He made a tough catch over the middle. Brady went to him on 4th and 3 and he caught it - very Patriots like in fact. It seems to me very possible he's is the reason they left go Cooks. He has speed, but also some Welker/Edelman to his game also. Edelmen, coincidentally played back up for a few years also.
Dorsett has such a cheap price with great upside. One of the best buys in fantasy, pretty much free.
He played most of the passing plays with the 1st team, maybe all of them. Patterson came in for runs and then with the 2nd team. It seems to me like Dorsett gets it. He can set up defenders. He made a tough catch over the middle. Brady went to him on 4th and 3 and he caught it - very Patriots like in fact. It seems to me very possible he's is the reason they left go Cooks. He has speed, but also some Welker/Edelman to his game also. Edelmen, coincidentally played back up for a few years also.
Dorsett has such a cheap price with great upside. One of the best buys in fantasy, pretty much free.
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Interseptopus
Footballguy
overall I'm a fan. I think he has high upside. Either him or Patterson are going to have decent seasons. The more I look into it all the more I like Dorsett. He has flex upside and is free
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Sorry. Not buying it. Once Edelman gets back, the receiving pecking order should be Edelman, Gronkowski, Hogan, White, Burkhead, then Dorsett (if all healthy of course). If their 6th option puts up the numbers you mentioned, the offense would be one of the most productive ever. Looking back over the years, NE usually has 2 fantasy worthy receivers, a TE, and a decent receiving back. Not sure Dorsett will change the dynamic much.
cloppbeast
Footballguy
Dorsett will be on the field on 2 wide sets till week 4, after on 3 wide sets at least. As you said on the other thread, Brady will throw to whoever, dictated by the coverage. Why would the receiver be the sixth option, after the running backs who line up 5 yards behind the line? I'm calling b.s.
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SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
The reason is because they have demonstrated success with a core element of their offense based on passing to RBs. If Dorsett can leverage the first four weeks to establish some reliability, a portion of the Edelman / Hogan share could shift his way.
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
If my memory is accurate, the only time NE had a third receiver score more than 75 fantasy points in 0 PPR scoring in the TB era was 2007. I suppose Dorsett could do it if other players got hurt, but I would not bank on it.
Lots of negatives, but there are far worse picks in the 15th+ round.
"Former 1st rounder" ... "playing with Brady" ... "depleted WR core" are enough for me to take him as a flier in almost every draft.
I've not had to use a pick higher than the 14th round to get him and I think at that price he's well worth the risk. Have him in 6/8 leagues as my last guy on my bench. Hope he can get it going, but if not, it cost me nothing.
"Former 1st rounder" ... "playing with Brady" ... "depleted WR core" are enough for me to take him as a flier in almost every draft.
I've not had to use a pick higher than the 14th round to get him and I think at that price he's well worth the risk. Have him in 6/8 leagues as my last guy on my bench. Hope he can get it going, but if not, it cost me nothing.
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cloppbeast
Footballguy
He's some combination of Amendola/Cooks - and still free in most leagues. Brady didn't take a shot deep to him last game, not sure if he wasn't getting open down field against solid corners or only used for clear out purposes. Either way the bombs are coming, in addition to the possession targets he's already getting. He caught all 7. I'm thinking the guy is match-up proof at least until Edelman gets back. It wouldn't surprise me for Dorsett to steal some of that role also. People are sleeping on this guy.
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Biabreakable
Footballguy
I had already given up on Dorset doing anything in the NFL. I was able to see a lot of his receptions and I was impressed. I thought Dorset looked like the player I hoped he would develop into, but had concluded he never would become.
Some times it takes awhile, and having Brady certainly helps.
Some times it takes awhile, and having Brady certainly helps.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Somehow he didn't even get bid on in WW in my league. I've never seen a 1st round pick so quickly written off. I added him for free
barackdhouse
Footballguy
Up against the Jags this week. Will Ramsey (try to) cover Gronk?
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Maybe. It's not a good week to play most Patriots. I'd wait and see on Dorsett if possible.
cloppbeast
Footballguy
If i remember, the pats tried to hit cooks deep a lot in the conference championship.
SameSongNDance
Footballguy
I'm not convinced that Dorsett just disappears when Edelaman comes back. To be blunt, I'm not convinced that Hogan is better than Dorsett. Hogan's edge last year came from the rapport he had already established with Brady - Dorsett was traded to NE just before the season started and would've had to compete with Cooks, he had no chance. Hogan is really only good in the RZ, he's pretty meh everywhere else. Now Dorsett has had a full off season to learn the system and develop a rapport with Brady. I wouldn't be surprised if Dorsett had a better season than Hogan.
Hogan also manned the slot on 47% of his snaps compared to Dorsett's 33% last week. I really think Hogan stands to lose more when Edelman returns than Dorsett does. Of course, there's going to be a squeeze regardless, as Gronk is the lead dog, the RBs will almost always be involved and even if Edelman is completely washed he will be given a chance to prove it first. But after Dorsett's performance last week he has to be owned in a majority of leagues.
I believe so.
cloppbeast
Footballguy
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I don't agree, but to each his own.
For all the talk of Dorsett taking on the Cooks role, Cooks ran downfield routes and had a lot of deep catches down the middle of the field with very little work underneath. Dorsett so far has been almost exclusively short routes, outside/sideline routes, nothing across the middle, and nothing deep.
If anything, Hogan is better served running the Cooks routes and going across the middle of the field. The way the Pats have been using Dorsett is much closer to Edelman than Cooks. It's too soon to really tell what there big picture plan is, as NE more than anyone else will have game specific game plans and individual roles and responsibilities could vary greatly from week to week.
Dorsett had a decent Week 1 with a 7-66-1 line. However, he had 3-30-1 in 17 seconds in the two minute offense at the end of the first half when the Texans defense was in a panic and fell apart in disarray. In the other 59:43, Dorsett put up 4-36-0 . . . which would have been a completely different narrative on how well he did and what his role would be moving forward.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
If you watched the game, Dorsett got two gift receptions for 25 yards by being uncovered and the defense being completely disorganized. Then came the TD when the defense had no idea who was covering whom. So sure, his totals certainly count, but how often are teams just going to not cover someone? IMO, I would chalk that more to luck, good fortune, and being in the right place at the right time. Not a true example of great play or super human effort.
As for the excluding the big runs, if a player had a 1.5 ypc average on 14 carries and a 79 yard run for 100 rushing yards, I do have an issue when people want to simply multiply that effort times 16 games to get a projection of 1,600 rushing yards on the season . . . as if the same player is going to get a breakaway TD every game.
All of this means that more accurate conclusions can be made over time instead of a very small sample size based off of one game.
Boston
Footballguy
If this game turns into the nail-biter I think it will be we are gonna learn a lot about Dorsett this week...I have not been sold on him but they have been very patient with him (and appear to really like him) and last week he looked great (meaning I am open to coming around on him)...he reminded me of Deion Branch and appeared to have Brady's trust which at the end of the day is the only thing that matters with a Patriot WR...if he can follow-up the Texans performance with another solid week against a big time defense where gets about 6 receptions on 8 targets and they are going to him in big spots there really could be something there...especially in the long term since he is somehow only 25 and could settle in with them for a decent stretch...I am really interested to see how he does because if he can consistently play like he did last week they could be in much better shape at WR than I thought they would be when Edelman comes back...that being said I can't say I would be shocked if he ends up with 2 catches and is a non-factor...will be real interesting to see his stat-line this week...
I'll admit my comment was a tad snarky...and it's clear you're quite knowledgable and about the Pats in particular.
That said, it seems to me Dorsett is quickly acquiring the most important trait any skill player can have: quickly gaining trust of Brady.
The TD route he ran was money...waiting until the very last moment to break away from the defender so as not to draw the other CB to him and giving Brady a perfect window to throw into. That to me demonstrated he has made some sort of turning point.
Chaka
Footballguy
But are you comfortable assuming that RB will continue to putting up 1.5ypc on their non-breakaway runs?
Only point being these things tend to even out.
I hope you don't take this the wrong way but I am not certain you really know what the organizational state of the Houston defense was based upon your viewing the game.
SameSongNDance
Footballguy
You're definitely right on this, these are all of Dorsett's routes from last week. Sadly, Hogan didn't get charted but I know he ran a lot of deep routes due to him having the highest average depth per target (25) of all WRs with 5+ targets last week, plus I watched the game and remember at least one missed deep connection. But Dorsett ran a lot of deep routes last year and that's what I meant when I said he would have had to compete with Cooks. This year he looks to have a larger role and is being asked to run more routes.
But I still think Dorsett can threaten teams vertically. And like I said, I'm not convinced Hogan is better since Dorsett looks to have made strides this year. It will be interesting to see how this plays out though.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
To me as a rookie prospect Dorsett reminded me of a poor mans Brandin Cooks. He was mostly a deep threat and constraint play type of player as far as how he wins. As a college player, Cooks demonstrated a bit more than that.
I figured Dorsett would become the WR 2 for Luck after Hilton. That did not happen and then Luck being injured also hindered this from happening for Dorsett.
I have noticed that Dorsett has added muscle and weight over the past two seasons. He looked noticably bigger to me in his second season, which I do think was important as he was very thin and likely not strong enough as a rookie. That plus development as a route runner were areas he needed to improve.
I think he has improved. Even so I do wonder why the Colts let him go. Its not like they have a lot of stars at WR for Luck to work with.
I did watch a replay of the game on NFL network, but I wasn't able to watch plays over again, something I would like to do. However I was impressed with his TD catch which he got nice separation on with his break to the out. He is snapping his routes more now, and he seemed comfortable with what was expected of him and what he needed to do. I can't say he ever looked like that with the Colts.
If he was running more of Edelman/Welkers routes in the offense, than Brandin Cooks, this could mean his opportunities greatly decrease when Edelman comes back. At the same time, if Dorsett is running these routes over Hogan, it shows that Dorsett has expanded his skill set and route tree, as those were not plays he was running in college or for the Colts, the few times I did get to see a Colts game.
Dorsett has speed to burn and will always be a deep threat. It was more the short and medium range work that he needed to develop and add to his game.
I would be iimpressed with the 4-36 and take that as a good sign based on the plays I saw, even if he didn't catch the TD which was also a very good play by Dorsett. That he is being used frequently in the 2 minute offense and the TD reception shows us that he has the confidence of Brady in important situations. He executed in those situations, which should only cause Bradys confidence in him to grow.
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the lone star
Footballguy
With Hogan and Gronk gone, I like Dorsett's chances for fantasy relevance this year. He did some nice things while Edelman was suspended and before the team acquired Josh Gordon. He was used in a Cooks-like role, and while he wasn't Cooks, he wasn't terrible at all. I like him for PPR leagues, and am happy that I held onto him in a dynasty league. But I do expect the Pats to draft some WRs, or at least trade for them with draft picks. It's always tough to predict what will happen, but I do think Dorsett will be more relevant in fantasy this year. Obviously, the Pats will use ASJ, but he's not going to break tackles and pick up extra yardage like Gronk did. With Hogan gone, I think Dorsett at worst is the 4th receiving option for the Pats, which honestly isn't too bad considering how long their drives are and how their D/ST will also give the O the ball.
Who do you all think the Pats target in the draft though? Also, do you think Dorsett can play some in the slot, or is he purely an outside WR?
Who do you all think the Pats target in the draft though? Also, do you think Dorsett can play some in the slot, or is he purely an outside WR?
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Buyer beware on Dorsett. The season is light years away. NE will target other WR, whether it be through the draft, by trade, free agency, or cuts from other teams. Plus if/when Gordon returns, Dorsett will slide further down the depth chart. Add in that the Pats are probably going to start running the ball more and I have my doubts how much NE will involve Dorsett.
This question is better asked right before opening day when we know what the options are. I realize that is a boring answer, but for now the best selling point given the current roster is that Dorsett could be more involved.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Define fantasy relevance? Would you feel comfortable starting him on a fantasy team that starts 3WR and a Flex? I wouldn’t.
He had 2 good games all season and never once broke 20 fantasy points in ppr leagues with his two best games earning 19.6 and 15.5. He also had six games where he scored ZERO points and two others where he didn't even break 2 fantasy points.
Can he play the slot? Not really in the way the Pats have used slot WRs in that he's not a great route runner or quick and shifty - he's a downfield deep threat for the most part - although last year he did not even break 10 ypr.
Right now I guess you'd have to like his chances by default since they really only have him and Edelman back from last year and have signed only longshots like Maurice Harris and Bruce Ellington. However it's April and we're a long way away from knowing the Pats depth chart at WR. We'll see.
In his favor the Pats have not been very successful in drafting WRs so....
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Stealthycat
Footballguy
WR DThomas signed today ... every additional WR to Patriots chips at Dorsett's value IMO
That is potentially a steal. I thought Thomas played pretty well in Houston last year, playing 2nd fiddle to Hopkins while learning the playbook on the fly. Really he wasn't bad the last few years in Denver either, he just had arguably league worst caliber QB play. If Thomas is recovered by the time the season starts, its entirely possible he's the #2 WR.
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the lone star
Footballguy
#TotalPatsMove. It chips away at Dorsett's value for sure though. But maybe the Pats will know how to use Dorsett better this year. i mean, after all, they are the Pats.
https://nesn.com/2018/09/patriots-texans-film-review-phillip-dorsett-finally-is-being-used-correctly/
https://nesn.com/2018/09/patriots-texans-film-review-phillip-dorsett-finally-is-being-used-correctly/
