You are a sought after HC, would you take the Redskins coaching job (1 Viewer)

[zftcg]

So why should he be fired? Besides the 3-10 record.

Yeah, since when did the NFL become all about WINNING? Whatever happened to just playing for the love of the game? All that should matter is that the players are having fun out there and learning good sportsmanship!

And they won a division title last year for the first time in how many years? I guess that was so long ago it's hard to rember. It's not a done deal. I'm sure Snyder is considering canning him but there's a chance he stays. I think he earned more than one year and I'm sure it's going to be considered after the season.

All joking aside, I'll give you a serious answer. First of all, it sounds like it absolutely is a done deal, and the only question is whether it happens now or he can hold on until Black Monday.

Second, I think the record itself is not really the primary driver. Whenever a team quits on its season, the HC's job is always going to be in jeopardy. Also, whenever a coach and owner have a fractured relationship, that's going to be bad for his job security as well. And finally, in a star-driven league, a coach needs to have a very strong relationship with his franchise QB. I suspect the Shanny/RG3 tensions have been somewhat overblown, but even if it's just the first two, those are probably enough to cost him his job.

One other thing: A division title is nice, but it's a far cry from a Super Bowl win. In recent years, both Kubiak and Caldwell won multiple division titles (and also had multiple playoff wins), and still got canned after bad seasons. Shanahan won one, lost the playoff game, and his team has totally collapsed the following year.

 

[zftcg]

I don't understand the obsession with hiring big-name coaches. No NFL team in history has ever hired a Super Bowl-winning coach and then gone on to win another Super Bowl with that coach (Shula/Vermeil lost in their first tries, then won with another team; Parcells won and then lost).

This is a ridiculous point. It's hard to win a Super Bowl. It's also hard to hire a Super Bowl-winning coach; there are very few who wind up on the market. Here's the list of Super Bowl winning coaches who went on to coach other teams.

Name (team, # of years)

Vince Lombardi (WAS, 1)

Hank Stram (NO, 2)

Don McCafferty (DET, 1)

Tom Flores (SEA, 3)

George Seifert (CAR, 3)

Jimmy Johnson (MIA, 4)

Mike Holmgren (SEA, 10)

Mike Shanahan (WAS, 4)

That's it. 8 coaches in the history of the NFL, and only five of them had anything like a full shot with the new team. So, five coaches failed to win a Super Bowl. That's not news.

Well, you left off Parcells, Ditka, Vermeil and (depending on how you define it) Gibbs. But yes, that's still a small sample size. I wasn't arguing with any sort of scientific precision (though I'd be curious to see the lifetime coaching records of retreads vs coordinators vs college coaches; there might be enough games there to draw statistically significant conclusions). I also seem to recall reading something once about how the NFL was fairly unique in that regard, and that in other sports, championships are far more correlated with previous championship success.

It just has always seemed to me that making that splashy hire feels more like ownership demonstrating to fans their commitment to spend what it takes to win, rather than actually maximizing their chances of winning. As a Washington fan, I'd be much more excited by a Briles or a Bevell than by a Gruden or a Cowher. (To be fair, I was once excited by the hiring of Norv Turner). I could offer up a number of theories as to why that might be true, but I readily admit I can't prove any of them.

 

[fatness]

So why should he be fired? Besides the 3-10 record.

6-10

5-11

10-6

3-10

Team quit weeks ago.

 

[jurb26]

So why should he be fired? Besides the 3-10 record.

6-105-11

10-6

3-10

Team quit weeks ago.

Maybe they are playing for that high draft pick.... Oh wait.

 

[fatness]

lol

 

[Sinn Fein]

Why would you? Terrible QB situation, meddlesome owner. There is no upside to taking that gig.

 

[fatness]

Why would you? Terrible QB situation, meddlesome owner. There is no upside to taking that gig.

This is why Mike Shanahan put out that fake story about quitting last year due to the owner interfering --- because most people not following the Skins would believe it. Shanahan's been left alone to run the team (along with Allen) for 4 years, has failed, needs an excuse, puts out a fake story, and right away people not following the team pick up the old "Dan Snyder is meddling again" refrain and believe him.

Mike Shanahan is a lying sack of ####.

 

[spodog]

Positives:

• Two Potential franchise QBs (and I stress the word potential)

Fixed.

 

[Phenix]

I would, only if I was able to choose starting QB and not be forced to play RG3 because the stubborn owner won't let me pull him.

I am all in on the RG3 hate, bad season bad knee or not. I have a feeling this guy will be a cancer to any team he is on in the NFL.

A diva to the fullest.

 

[FUBAR]

I'd take Washington over Dallas, but that's about it.

Houston should be the coveted job.

 

[fatness]

How to tell when the job is officially available.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Why would you? Terrible QB situation, meddlesome owner. There is no upside to taking that gig.

This is why Mike Shanahan put out that fake story about quitting last year due to the owner interfering --- because most people not following the Skins would believe it. Shanahan's been left alone to run the team (along with Allen) for 4 years, has failed, needs an excuse, puts out a fake story, and right away people not following the team pick up the old "Dan Snyder is meddling again" refrain and believe him.

Mike Shanahan is a lying sack of ####.

I buy that Snyder has really stepped back from football operations, but the flaws of the CEO/owner/etc always filter into the company/team/etc. I don't buy that the Redskins organization isn't still filled with syncophants and yes men (look at the team-owned radio for example) and expect that still has an effect on the team.

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

One other thing: A division title is nice, but it's a far cry from a Super Bowl win. In recent years, both Kubiak and Caldwell won multiple division titles (and also had multiple playoff wins), and still got canned after bad seasons. Shanahan won one, lost the playoff game, and his team has totally collapsed the following year.

Frankly, I'm surprised this thread has made it to page 2 without a single mention of the fan base's deep-rooted expectations and how they might color one's decision.

Over the past 20 years, the Skins have a grand total of six winning seasons, 4 playoff appearances, and zero Super Bowl appearances. You'd think this sort of stretch would throw a giant wet blanket over expectations, or at least temper them a bit ... but yeah, not so much. I'm not ragging on Skins fans - in my experience they've always been passionate without being a-holes about it, which is more than I can say for some of their divisional brethren - but someone needs to politely inform them that this ain't 1982, and Joe Gibbs is not walking through that door.

Leave the QB, the owner, and everything else aside for a minute ... if I'm a coach whose goal is to just make it more years than not into the giant crapshoot that is the NFL playoffs, where would I rather be accomplishing that? In Washington, where after three or four years without a Lombardi the crew would start planning their next mutiny? Or someplace like Houston, where after a dozen years of that the town would probably start commissioning statues of me?

 

[babydemon90]

Why the hell would we "dump" Trent Williams?

Yea, I don't get that...

But, to the question, yes. You have a team with good offensive talent and plenty of cap space, you take that in a heartbeat.

 

[fatness]

I buy that Snyder has really stepped back from football operations, but the flaws of the CEO/owner/etc always filter into the company/team/etc. I don't buy that the Redskins organization isn't still filled with syncophants and yes men (look at the team-owned radio for example) and expect that still has an effect on the team.

I won't argue much with that. The point I was making was that Shanahan's story about quitting was made up --- he never cleaned out his office ---- that it was planted by him, and that nationwide people picked right up on it as if it was true because it jived with the longtime "Dan Snyder is meddlesome" theme. Shanahan's story was false.

 

[RUSF18]

I buy that Snyder has really stepped back from football operations, but the flaws of the CEO/owner/etc always filter into the company/team/etc. I don't buy that the Redskins organization isn't still filled with syncophants and yes men (look at the team-owned radio for example) and expect that still has an effect on the team.

I won't argue much with that. The point I was making was that Shanahan's story about quitting was made up --- he never cleaned out his office ---- that it was planted by him, and that nationwide people picked right up on it as if it was true because it jived with the longtime "Dan Snyder is meddlesome" theme. Shanahan's story was false.

Do we have any reputable links for this? Asking seriously...

 

[fatness]

I buy that Snyder has really stepped back from football operations, but the flaws of the CEO/owner/etc always filter into the company/team/etc. I don't buy that the Redskins organization isn't still filled with syncophants and yes men (look at the team-owned radio for example) and expect that still has an effect on the team.

I won't argue much with that. The point I was making was that Shanahan's story about quitting was made up --- he never cleaned out his office ---- that it was planted by him, and that nationwide people picked right up on it as if it was true because it jived with the longtime "Dan Snyder is meddlesome" theme. Shanahan's story was false.

Do we have any reputable links for this? Asking seriously...

Mike Jones, Redskin beat reporter for the Washington Post.

Redskins officials were furious over the report and believe that Shanahan leaked it in an attempt to force the owner’s hand. Why? Because just a partial handful of people would have known about the details, and because the Houston head coaching job just became available this past week and Shanahan already has been mentioned as a possible candidate. People close to the situation say Shanahan’s office was not at all packed up the day before or after the Seattle game. But it’s clear someone is now trying to revise history.

Add to that the fact that no other player, coach, staffer, or reporter ever saw it happen (clearing out his office).

 

[fatness]

Mike Shanahan’s Brilliant Last Act as Redskins Coach; Making Everyone Forget He Sucked

If you listened to the post game shows today, you wouldn’t know that Mike Shanahan has led his team to a 3-10 record. You wouldn’t know that his record as Redskins head coach is 24-37. You wouldn’t know that his roster, as constructed, is poor to put nicely and downright terrible and embarrassing to be blunt and honest.

You won’t know that his coaching staff is a mess. That the only reason defensive coordinator Jim Haslett still has a job was because, to get back into the NFL, he was willing to forgo autonomy to Mike Shanahan (meanwhile, the other candidate, Mike Zimmer, is coordinating one of the NFL’s top defenses). You wouldn’t know that Bob Slowik, a below average coach, was shoved into a role as linebacker coach, a role he’d never held before. You wouldn’t know that that the Redskins have had 3 wide receiver coaches in four years, none of whom had coaching experience, and in the case of Mike McDaniels, had only previously experiences coaching running backs.

You wouldn’t that Mike’s had complete control of the franchise for four years, with absolutely zero input from principal owner Daniel Snyder. That the team is constructed entirely of players he chose. That, though he was certainly screwed, he played a key role in the Redskins getting a $36 million dollar cap hit, in large part because he wanted to get in a pissing contest with Albert Haynesworth.

You wouldn’t know about the infamous Shanahan Doghouse, or the mediocre draft choices, or the offensive line that never seemed to get better, or the defense that, like so many Shanahan teams, couldn’t gain any traction, or the special teams unit disasters that span two coaches.

What you’ll hear a lot of in the next few days isn’t about Mike Shanahan’s failures as a head coach. Instead, you’ll hear about Dan Snyder and Robert Griffin III’s “relationship”.

By conveniently leaking info over the course of the last few weeks — about RG3′s insecurity, about Dan’s meddling — Mike Shanahan, effectively, found a way to absolve himself of any and all failure of the organization.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

You are a sought after HC, would you take the Redskins coaching job

A: No.

Coaches have the general rep of an organization down generally, and my guess is, whether deserved or not, Snyder, with all the coaches good and average that have gone through there, has developed a rep on a par with that of Al Davis and Jerry Jones, that is that no self-respecting coach who wants a modicum of autonomy and control over what they do, and a minimum of headaches along the way, can make it work there. Either you go along to get along or you buck the system and you earn Snyder's ire.

I think there will be some very good coach that will want to go there because they will want to work with Griffin and build a great offense and system around him, but that will be in spite of Snyder. We will never know but wouldn't surprise me if he fails at getting his first, second or third choices along the way.

 

[MattFancy]

I'm definitely biased, but I'd say yes.

1) You have a franchise LT, QB, top RB, really good WR, young talented TE, good young FB on offense. Defense needs work but if they can bring back Orakpo, he and Kerrigan could be a really nice OLB duo.

2) You have $20 million in cap space, so you'll be able to bring in just about anyone you want to fit your system

3) Snyder, if nothing else, is willing to spend the money necessary to win. You would have no problem convincing him to open up his checkbook

4) Again, with Snyder willing to spend, you would be able to bring in just about any coaches you wanted to help

5) The NFC East is wide open. You could possibly have the last 2 years where there was a worst-to-first. There's no real dominant team in the division.

 

[zftcg]

One other thing: A division title is nice, but it's a far cry from a Super Bowl win. In recent years, both Kubiak and Caldwell won multiple division titles (and also had multiple playoff wins), and still got canned after bad seasons. Shanahan won one, lost the playoff game, and his team has totally collapsed the following year.

Frankly, I'm surprised this thread has made it to page 2 without a single mention of the fan base's deep-rooted expectations and how they might color one's decision.

Over the past 20 years, the Skins have a grand total of six winning seasons, 4 playoff appearances, and zero Super Bowl appearances. You'd think this sort of stretch would throw a giant wet blanket over expectations, or at least temper them a bit ... but yeah, not so much. I'm not ragging on Skins fans - in my experience they've always been passionate without being a-holes about it, which is more than I can say for some of their divisional brethren - but someone needs to politely inform them that this ain't 1982, and Joe Gibbs is not walking through that door.

Leave the QB, the owner, and everything else aside for a minute ... if I'm a coach whose goal is to just make it more years than not into the giant crapshoot that is the NFL playoffs, where would I rather be accomplishing that? In Washington, where after three or four years without a Lombardi the crew would start planning their next mutiny? Or someplace like Houston, where after a dozen years of that the town would probably start commissioning statues of me?

I suppose, but I really don't think expectations are playing a role here. The team has quit, the coach and the owner hate each other, and the coach has had some issues with his franchise QB. You could be coaching the Iowa Barnstormers in the Arena Football League and still not be able to survive that scenario.

Also, when I made that comment, I wasn't even thinking of Washington in particular. Any coach who can't get past the first round of the playoffs isn't going to have a ton of job security. Remember Tony Dungy with Tampa?

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

No.

Snyder is the worst owner in all of sports.

 

[thayman]

Not a good job. The owner is too active in day to day football issues. Snyder also treats RG3 like his #### don't stink.....giving him preferential treatment over other players.

Add to that all the picks they gave up for someone who has regressed and clearly isn't currently at this point in time a franchise QB and you have problems.

Congratulations. You listen to the media but have no idea what's actually going on. People like you are the ones Shanahan's counting on to swing public opinion in his favor during this ugly separation.

I don't care one way or another. Fire who ever you want. Snyder has a long history of being too visible of an owner. RG3 to me doesn't seem to respect his coaches. I get the feeling from seeing his press conferences he feels he is above them. Why is this? He believed the hype a bit too much IMO.

Snyder has stayed out of football operations since hiring Shanny/Allen.

 

[ryno1980]

One other thing: A division title is nice, but it's a far cry from a Super Bowl win. In recent years, both Kubiak and Caldwell won multiple division titles (and also had multiple playoff wins), and still got canned after bad seasons. Shanahan won one, lost the playoff game, and his team has totally collapsed the following year.

Frankly, I'm surprised this thread has made it to page 2 without a single mention of the fan base's deep-rooted expectations and how they might color one's decision.

Over the past 20 years, the Skins have a grand total of six winning seasons, 4 playoff appearances, and zero Super Bowl appearances. You'd think this sort of stretch would throw a giant wet blanket over expectations, or at least temper them a bit ... but yeah, not so much. I'm not ragging on Skins fans - in my experience they've always been passionate without being a-holes about it, which is more than I can say for some of their divisional brethren - but someone needs to politely inform them that this ain't 1982, and Joe Gibbs is not walking through that door.

Leave the QB, the owner, and everything else aside for a minute ... if I'm a coach whose goal is to just make it more years than not into the giant crapshoot that is the NFL playoffs, where would I rather be accomplishing that? In Washington, where after three or four years without a Lombardi the crew would start planning their next mutiny? Or someplace like Houston, where after a dozen years of that the town would probably start commissioning statues of me?

I suppose, but I really don't think expectations are playing a role here. The team has quit, the coach and the owner hate each other, and the coach has had some issues with his franchise QB. You could be coaching the Iowa Barnstormers in the Arena Football League and still not be able to survive that scenario.

Also, when I made that comment, I wasn't even thinking of Washington in particular. Any coach who can't get past the first round of the playoffs isn't going to have a ton of job security. Remember Tony Dungy with Tampa?

Dungy was knocked from playoffs like four times. Shanahan has won a Super Bowl and he's only 0 for 1 in the playoffs in Washington. That's not a valid comparison.

 

[valhallan]

I'm amazed people are willing to believe Snyder has stayed out of the football operations. A tiger doesn't change his stripes that easily. And as someone else mentioned, the organization is likely stocked with his cronies since by most accounts anyone with self-respect runs out of that place as soon as they can.

Maybe Shanny is a jerk too. He would almost have to be to take that gig in the first place.

 

[Shutout]

I wouldn't touch the Redskins, the Cowboys or the Colts because of the owners. I'd rather go coach in Jacksonville.

For every "bad", there is a "worse" (turkish proverb). You just chose the worse.

You might get meddled with in these cities. You might even have unrealistic expectations placed upon you by your employer but, you know what, that happens at a lot of jobs and for $4M/year, you can suck it up. At least in these locations, they give you the resources to do your work.

Working in JAX would be like working at IBM, armed with a magna doodle instead of a tablet.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Norv Turner 17-12 1999-2000

Terry Robiskie 1-2 2000

Marty Schottenheimer 8-8 2001

Steve Spurrier 12-20 2002-2003

Joe Gibbs 30-34 2004-2007

Jim Zorn 10-22 2008-2009

Mike Shanahan 24-37 2010-2013

Wouldn't want any part of it

See, this is telling.

Even if Snyder is not "calling the shots" there is an organizational culture problem and that starts at the top.

Reality is this franchise has been beset by problems from the beginning, under Marshall, but then had a real upsurge under Cooke, Allen and Gibbs. Truth is that Snyder's tenure has more in common with the pre-Cooke era and the Joe Gibbs & George Allen years were an aberration.

23 years under Gibbs and Allen. Since 1945, almost 60 years, in the 36 years outside of those two, there have been two playoff games, both losses, and no championships/Super Bowls. Allen & Gibbs were both under the former Jack Cooke regime.

That's 2 playoff games in 36 years. Redskins should realize they were really lucky to have those two coaches in all those years of mismanagement between Snyder and Marshall. Expecting what they had under Allen/Gibbs/Cooke is not realistic because this is a losing regime beginning at the top.

 

[Da Guru]

Jerry Jones would be tougher to work for than Snyder. Jones is a horrible GM..plus he owns the team. Not a good combo. Snyder is just a bad owner.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

I wouldn't touch the Redskins, the Cowboys or the Colts because of the owners. I'd rather go coach in Jacksonville.

For every "bad", there is a "worse" (turkish proverb). You just chose the worse.

You might get meddled with in these cities. You might even have unrealistic expectations placed upon you by your employer but, you know what, that happens at a lot of jobs and for $4M/year, you can suck it up. At least in these locations, they give you the resources to do your work.

Working in JAX would be like working at IBM, armed with a magna doodle instead of a tablet.

I don't really think this is true at all. Jacksonville has become a bad team because they made terrible choices for key jobs, not because of lack of resources. Certainly Kahn has plenty of money to put into the operation.

The fact that the Jaguars were very successful early in their existence suggests that there's nothing stopping them from getting there again other than making the right hires.

 

[valhallan]

Norv Turner 17-12 1999-2000

Terry Robiskie 1-2 2000

Marty Schottenheimer 8-8 2001

Steve Spurrier 12-20 2002-2003

Joe Gibbs 30-34 2004-2007

Jim Zorn 10-22 2008-2009

Mike Shanahan 24-37 2010-2013

Wouldn't want any part of it

See, this is telling.

Even if Snyder is not "calling the shots" there is an organizational culture problem and that starts at the top.

Reality is this franchise has been beset by problems from the beginning, under Marshall, but then had a real upsurge under Cooke, Allen and Gibbs. Truth is that Snyder's tenure has more in common with the pre-Cooke era and the Joe Gibbs & George Allen years were an aberration.

23 years under Gibbs and Allen. Since 1945, almost 60 years, in the 36 years outside of those two, there have been two playoff games, both losses, and no championships/Super Bowls. Allen & Gibbs were both under the former Jack Cooke regime.

That's 2 playoff games in 36 years. Redskins should realize they were really lucky to have those two coaches in all those years of mismanagement between Snyder and Marshall. Expecting what they had under Allen/Gibbs/Cooke is not realistic because this is a losing regime beginning at the top.

To be fair, I'm not sure you'd find many too franchises that don't have the majority of their success tied to one or two coaches. Our Saints come to mind.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Norv Turner 17-12 1999-2000

Terry Robiskie 1-2 2000

Marty Schottenheimer 8-8 2001

Steve Spurrier 12-20 2002-2003

Joe Gibbs 30-34 2004-2007

Jim Zorn 10-22 2008-2009

Mike Shanahan 24-37 2010-2013

Wouldn't want any part of it

See, this is telling.

Even if Snyder is not "calling the shots" there is an organizational culture problem and that starts at the top.

Reality is this franchise has been beset by problems from the beginning, under Marshall, but then had a real upsurge under Cooke, Allen and Gibbs. Truth is that Snyder's tenure has more in common with the pre-Cooke era and the Joe Gibbs & George Allen years were an aberration.

23 years under Gibbs and Allen. Since 1945, almost 60 years, in the 36 years outside of those two, there have been two playoff games, both losses, and no championships/Super Bowls. Allen & Gibbs were both under the former Jack Cooke regime.

That's 2 playoff games in 36 years. Redskins should realize they were really lucky to have those two coaches in all those years of mismanagement between Snyder and Marshall. Expecting what they had under Allen/Gibbs/Cooke is not realistic because this is a losing regime beginning at the top.

To be fair, I'm not sure you'd find many too franchises that don't have the majority of their success tied to one or two coaches. Our Saints come to mind.

Absolutely, I had the Saints in mind.

Years of failure under John Mecom really did start at the top. And then Benson came, and the franchise did improve under Mora (with Finks), but he did more or less luck into Payton (and Brees). Now they're considered one of the best run franchises in sports.

 

[MattFancy]

Norv Turner 17-12 1999-2000

Terry Robiskie 1-2 2000

Marty Schottenheimer 8-8 2001

Steve Spurrier 12-20 2002-2003

Joe Gibbs 30-34 2004-2007

Jim Zorn 10-22 2008-2009

Mike Shanahan 24-37 2010-2013

Wouldn't want any part of it

See, this is telling.

Even if Snyder is not "calling the shots" there is an organizational culture problem and that starts at the top.

Reality is this franchise has been beset by problems from the beginning, under Marshall, but then had a real upsurge under Cooke, Allen and Gibbs. Truth is that Snyder's tenure has more in common with the pre-Cooke era and the Joe Gibbs & George Allen years were an aberration.

23 years under Gibbs and Allen. Since 1945, almost 60 years, in the 36 years outside of those two, there have been two playoff games, both losses, and no championships/Super Bowls. Allen & Gibbs were both under the former Jack Cooke regime.

That's 2 playoff games in 36 years. Redskins should realize they were really lucky to have those two coaches in all those years of mismanagement between Snyder and Marshall. Expecting what they had under Allen/Gibbs/Cooke is not realistic because this is a losing regime beginning at the top.

You could probably find periods like that in any franchise. The Pats weren't much before Kraft/Belichick for example. Very few teams have had sustained success over their entire time in the league. No, the Skins haven't always been perfect. But if you take a 23yr chunk out of most teams, you'll see they weren't very good.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Norv Turner 17-12 1999-2000

Terry Robiskie 1-2 2000

Marty Schottenheimer 8-8 2001

Steve Spurrier 12-20 2002-2003

Joe Gibbs 30-34 2004-2007

Jim Zorn 10-22 2008-2009

Mike Shanahan 24-37 2010-2013

Wouldn't want any part of it

See, this is telling.

Even if Snyder is not "calling the shots" there is an organizational culture problem and that starts at the top.

Reality is this franchise has been beset by problems from the beginning, under Marshall, but then had a real upsurge under Cooke, Allen and Gibbs. Truth is that Snyder's tenure has more in common with the pre-Cooke era and the Joe Gibbs & George Allen years were an aberration.

23 years under Gibbs and Allen. Since 1945, almost 60 years, in the 36 years outside of those two, there have been two playoff games, both losses, and no championships/Super Bowls. Allen & Gibbs were both under the former Jack Cooke regime.

That's 2 playoff games in 36 years. Redskins should realize they were really lucky to have those two coaches in all those years of mismanagement between Snyder and Marshall. Expecting what they had under Allen/Gibbs/Cooke is not realistic because this is a losing regime beginning at the top.

You could probably find periods like that in any franchise. The Pats weren't much before Kraft/Belichick for example. Very few teams have had sustained success over their entire time in the league. No, the Skins haven't always been perfect. But if you take a 23yr chunk out of most teams, you'll see they weren't very good.

I guess what I could have shorter and better is that they have had almost no lasting success under Snyder.

I think it's an ownership problem.

 

[MattFancy]

Norv Turner 17-12 1999-2000

Terry Robiskie 1-2 2000

Marty Schottenheimer 8-8 2001

Steve Spurrier 12-20 2002-2003

Joe Gibbs 30-34 2004-2007

Jim Zorn 10-22 2008-2009

Mike Shanahan 24-37 2010-2013

Wouldn't want any part of it

See, this is telling.

Even if Snyder is not "calling the shots" there is an organizational culture problem and that starts at the top.

Reality is this franchise has been beset by problems from the beginning, under Marshall, but then had a real upsurge under Cooke, Allen and Gibbs. Truth is that Snyder's tenure has more in common with the pre-Cooke era and the Joe Gibbs & George Allen years were an aberration.

23 years under Gibbs and Allen. Since 1945, almost 60 years, in the 36 years outside of those two, there have been two playoff games, both losses, and no championships/Super Bowls. Allen & Gibbs were both under the former Jack Cooke regime.

That's 2 playoff games in 36 years. Redskins should realize they were really lucky to have those two coaches in all those years of mismanagement between Snyder and Marshall. Expecting what they had under Allen/Gibbs/Cooke is not realistic because this is a losing regime beginning at the top.

You could probably find periods like that in any franchise. The Pats weren't much before Kraft/Belichick for example. Very few teams have had sustained success over their entire time in the league. No, the Skins haven't always been perfect. But if you take a 23yr chunk out of most teams, you'll see they weren't very good.

I guess what I could have shorter and better is that they have had almost no lasting success under Snyder.

I think it's an ownership problem.

Now that sounds better.

I think Snyder has definitely backed off since he gave Shanahan/Allen the keys. Is he the best owner in sports? Hell no. Is he the worst? I don't think so. If anything, the dude has shown he is willing to pay whatever price to get the players/coaches he wants. Does he always get the best ones? No. But money isn't an issue for him like other owners. I applaud him for at least being willing to spend the money.

There are thing he should definitely do differently and I hope he does. But at least these last 4 years, he's been pretty hands off.

 

[zftcg]

One other thing: A division title is nice, but it's a far cry from a Super Bowl win. In recent years, both Kubiak and Caldwell won multiple division titles (and also had multiple playoff wins), and still got canned after bad seasons. Shanahan won one, lost the playoff game, and his team has totally collapsed the following year.

Frankly, I'm surprised this thread has made it to page 2 without a single mention of the fan base's deep-rooted expectations and how they might color one's decision.

Over the past 20 years, the Skins have a grand total of six winning seasons, 4 playoff appearances, and zero Super Bowl appearances. You'd think this sort of stretch would throw a giant wet blanket over expectations, or at least temper them a bit ... but yeah, not so much. I'm not ragging on Skins fans - in my experience they've always been passionate without being a-holes about it, which is more than I can say for some of their divisional brethren - but someone needs to politely inform them that this ain't 1982, and Joe Gibbs is not walking through that door.

Leave the QB, the owner, and everything else aside for a minute ... if I'm a coach whose goal is to just make it more years than not into the giant crapshoot that is the NFL playoffs, where would I rather be accomplishing that? In Washington, where after three or four years without a Lombardi the crew would start planning their next mutiny? Or someplace like Houston, where after a dozen years of that the town would probably start commissioning statues of me?

I suppose, but I really don't think expectations are playing a role here. The team has quit, the coach and the owner hate each other, and the coach has had some issues with his franchise QB. You could be coaching the Iowa Barnstormers in the Arena Football League and still not be able to survive that scenario.

Also, when I made that comment, I wasn't even thinking of Washington in particular. Any coach who can't get past the first round of the playoffs isn't going to have a ton of job security. Remember Tony Dungy with Tampa?

Dungy was knocked from playoffs like four times. Shanahan has won a Super Bowl and he's only 0 for 1 in the playoffs in Washington. That's not a valid comparison.

What are we even comparing at this point? You initially said Shanahan shouldn't be fired because he won a division title last year. I pointed out that's not such a big deal anymore, and certainly no guarantee of job security (especially when your team quits on you).

I don't think Shanny should be fired because he's only won a DT, but I also don't think it's some sort of talisman that should ensure his job in perpetuity.

As a side note, it's odd to argue that Dungy was more deserving of his firing because lost in the playoffs four times while Shanahan only lost once, since that necessarily means Dungy made the playoffs four times.

 

[Sinn Fein]

You guys are crazy if you think RGIII is a franchise QB. If he won't run like he used to, he's not much of a pocket passer.

 

[MattFancy]

You guys are crazy if you think RGIII is a franchise QB. If he won't run like he used to, he's not much of a pocket passer.

He had no offseason to work on his pocket passing. Give him a full offseason and then judge him.

 

[Brunell4MVP]

Why the hell would we "dump" Trent Williams?

I like Williams. But I believe it saves 7.2m in cap space. He's due 11m next year. Steep price. Obviously the general consensus I'm reading is he's worthy the 11m. I can live with that. Morgan is a definite dump. Due like 10m. How the hell did he get that contract?

 

[Brunell4MVP]

You guys are crazy if you think RGIII is a franchise QB. If he won't run like he used to, he's not much of a pocket passer.

He had no offseason to work on his pocket passing. Give him a full offseason and then judge him.

I thought that too at he start of the year. But he is very inaccurate and his reads are late. Bad combo. Happens a lot to 2nd yr players though.

I am sticking with rg3 next year, but I'm not letting go of cousins. He's my insurance plan both for rg3s body and if he doesn't develop in the pocket.

 

[ryno1980]

One other thing: A division title is nice, but it's a far cry from a Super Bowl win. In recent years, both Kubiak and Caldwell won multiple division titles (and also had multiple playoff wins), and still got canned after bad seasons. Shanahan won one, lost the playoff game, and his team has totally collapsed the following year.

Frankly, I'm surprised this thread has made it to page 2 without a single mention of the fan base's deep-rooted expectations and how they might color one's decision.

Over the past 20 years, the Skins have a grand total of six winning seasons, 4 playoff appearances, and zero Super Bowl appearances. You'd think this sort of stretch would throw a giant wet blanket over expectations, or at least temper them a bit ... but yeah, not so much. I'm not ragging on Skins fans - in my experience they've always been passionate without being a-holes about it, which is more than I can say for some of their divisional brethren - but someone needs to politely inform them that this ain't 1982, and Joe Gibbs is not walking through that door.

Leave the QB, the owner, and everything else aside for a minute ... if I'm a coach whose goal is to just make it more years than not into the giant crapshoot that is the NFL playoffs, where would I rather be accomplishing that? In Washington, where after three or four years without a Lombardi the crew would start planning their next mutiny? Or someplace like Houston, where after a dozen years of that the town would probably start commissioning statues of me?

I suppose, but I really don't think expectations are playing a role here. The team has quit, the coach and the owner hate each other, and the coach has had some issues with his franchise QB. You could be coaching the Iowa Barnstormers in the Arena Football League and still not be able to survive that scenario.

Also, when I made that comment, I wasn't even thinking of Washington in particular. Any coach who can't get past the first round of the playoffs isn't going to have a ton of job security. Remember Tony Dungy with Tampa?

Dungy was knocked from playoffs like four times. Shanahan has won a Super Bowl and he's only 0 for 1 in the playoffs in Washington. That's not a valid comparison.

What are we even comparing at this point? You initially said Shanahan shouldn't be fired because he won a division title last year. I pointed out that's not such a big deal anymore, and certainly no guarantee of job security (especially when your team quits on you).

I don't think Shanny should be fired because he's only won a DT, but I also don't think it's some sort of talisman that should ensure his job in perpetuity.

As a side note, it's odd to argue that Dungy was more deserving of his firing because lost in the playoffs four times while Shanahan only lost once, since that necessarily means Dungy made the playoffs four times.

You brought up dungy. I was only proving the fault in your logic. I never said dungy was more deserving of being fired, only there was a sample size that would allow one to make the case you were making. I also never said the DT should give him security for perpetuity. But i haven't seen a team that quit, it's a team that's lost a lot of close games until San Fran and KC - two very good teams. I don't see how this was some kind of shocking loss.

Kubiak, who was brought up, I mean his texans were swept by the jaguars. That's pretty pathetic.

 

[ConnSKINS26]

Why the hell would we "dump" Trent Williams?

I like Williams. But I believe it saves 7.2m in cap space. He's due 11m next year. Steep price. Obviously the general consensus I'm reading is he's worthy the 11m. I can live with that. Morgan is a definite dump. Due like 10m. How the hell did he get that contract?

Morgan's contract was written to automatically void after this season, he's a FA. The extra numbes are just there to spread out the cap hit. So we'll be paying him for a while longer while he plays somewhere else.As for Trent...if you think he'll be here for a long time (no-brainer), you extend him and lower that cap hit next year. Which saves cap room, and we get to keep our great LT.

 

[fatness]

I'm amazed people are willing to believe Snyder has stayed out of the football operations.

If you follow the Skins you know there's been no meddling reported for years now. So you can go by what's been reported by Skins fans following the team, or you can go by "belief".

 

[fatness]

I guess what I could have shorter and better is that they have had almost no lasting success under Snyder.I think it's an ownership problem.

It is. The owner sucks at hiring GM's and head coaches.

 

[valhallan]

I'm amazed people are willing to believe Snyder has stayed out of the football operations.

If you follow the Skins you know there's been no meddling reported for years now. So you can go by what's been reported by Skins fans following the team, or you can go by "belief".

I follow the team through friends and DC radio. I'll go by track record. It's simply naive to believe superfan #99 suddenly sits there on his hands. Redskins Park and 980 are always so forthcoming with unbiased information, though, so perhaps it's all aces over there.

 

[fatness]

You guys are crazy if you think RGIII is a franchise QB. If he won't run like he used to, he's not much of a pocket passer.

Let's tell the complete story. The Redskins aren't much of a pocket passing team. Their line pass protects like a wet paper towel, their receivers (besides Garcon and Reed when he's healthy) do not get open on their own, their QB is young and missed the offseason and had last year's offense completely changed this year.

 

[fatness]

Redskins Park and 980 are always so forthcoming with unbiased information, though, so perhaps it's all aces over there.

If you follow the team as you say, you know there are plenty of other sources of information about them than 980, don't you?

 

[valhallan]

Redskins Park and 980 are always so forthcoming with unbiased information, though, so perhaps it's all aces over there.

If you follow the team as you say, you know there are plenty of other sources of information about them than 980, don't you?

Yep. As far as I know, 980 has preferential access. I know you like the Post, but I find Boswell extremely irritating.

 

[fatness]

Redskins Park and 980 are always so forthcoming with unbiased information, though, so perhaps it's all aces over there.

If you follow the team as you say, you know there are plenty of other sources of information about them than 980, don't you?

Yep. As far as I know, 980 has preferential access. I know you like the Post, but I find Boswell extremely irritating.

John Keim is the best Redskin reporter, hands down (former beat reporter, now with ESPN). Rich Campbell was his equal but got a much-deserved gig at the Chicago Tribune. Mike Jones with the Post is OK on beat reporting. Boswell only covers the Skins generally and isn't a beat reporter from what I know. Jason Reid of the Post, Zac Boyer of the Times, Rich Tandler, those are most of the people I trust for information about the Skins that isn't controlled by the Skins.

The 980 crew has some likeable people but has some insufferable sycophants too. Sheehan and Larry Michael appear to have no gag reflex whatsoever, and Chris Russell is getting that bad.

 

[jbz]

all the standard "no, Snyder is a meddling owner" answers make me LOL. This is the standard boxed answer for any question that deals with the Redskins issues for people that don't follow the team. I'd love to just blame him like we could years ago, but unfortunately it's not that simple. Even if it was, he's not going anywhere. Shanny's had full control of all football related moves since he got there. It was his brilliant move to trade for Donovan McNabb. It was his move to hire Haslett and make a team completely built for a 4-3 and try to turn it into a 3-4 without having any personnel for it. Who do we blame for the great special teams coach? Snyder? Nope.

 

[Brunell4MVP]

Compare...

Mike Shanahan in Denver: 138-86 (61%) in 14 seasons. Only 2 losings seasons. Never less than 6 wins.

Mike Shanahan with Snyder: 24-37 (39%) in 4 seasons. 3 of 4 seasons with 6 or less wins.

Joe Gibbs under Cooke: 137-50 (73%)

Joe Gibbs under Snyder: 30-34 (46%)

Looks to me like both coaches are 22-26% better under other owners.

The organization under Snyder: 101-123. 4 winning seasons in like 16 years. 7 head coaches. All head coaches would throw Snyder under the bus.

Is Snyder responsible for this bad year? Don't know. Does he still meddle? Don't know. Is Shanny trying to save himself on the way out? Probably. But the fact is there is one constant in the losing ways of this team, and it's Snyder.