You Make the Call #1 (1 Viewer)

[GregR]

Below is a hypothetical game situation, and four different ways the play could go. You're the ref. What is the correct call for each of the four situations?

Game situation:

Browns at Jets. 5 minutes left in the 4th quarter, Jets leading 22-6. Browns score a rushing touchdown and attempt a two point conversion to try to make it an 8 point game.

The Browns call a running play and hand off to Trent Richardson. Richardson fumbles the ball. What is the correct call for each of these different ways it could play out from there?

1) Bart Scott of the Jets picks up the ball and advances it two steps before having it stripped by Richardson. Richardson then recovers the ball again and runs it into the end zone.

2) While the ball is loose on the ground, Bart Scott hits the ball to keep it away from Richardson, knocking it into the end zone. Joe Thomas of the Browns recovers the ball in the end zone.

3) While the ball is loose on the ground, Bart Scott hits the ball to keep it away from Richardson, knocking it into the end zone. The ball rolls out of bounds in the end zone without anyone recovering it.

4) While the ball is loose on the ground, Bart Scott hits the ball to keep it away from Richardson, knocking it into the end zone. Darrelle Revis recovers the ball in the end zone and runs it out, where he is tackled on the 2 yard line.

 

[Utter Chaos]

My guess would be:

1) and 4) are no good. I believe once the defense secures possession the play is blown dead since they can't advance it.

2) and 3) are good. Since it was the defense that force the ball into the end zone then the offense shouldn't be penalized for it.

note: I'm not real confident about #3 though.

 

[David Yudkin]

Correct? I don't know if this is official, but here's what I would guess.

1) I believe that once the defense establishes possession of the ball on a conversion attempt the play is dead. So XP try is no good.

2) Since no possession was established by the defense, it's a live ball = conversion is good.

3) Since no possession was established by the defense and neither did the offense, the play is dead = no points awarded.

4) See #1. Play is dead once Revis controlled it = no points awarded.

ETA . . . in #3, if the defense hit the ball into their own end zone and the defense recovered and did not run the ball out of the end zone, then the offense would be awarded a 1 point safety.

 

[Joe Summer]

#1 - dead ball the moment Scott establishes possession. No score.

#2 - 2 points for Cleveland*.

#3 - this is a safety against the Jets, which counts as 1 point for Cleveland*.

#4 - dead ball the moment Revis establishes possession. No score.

* I think (but am not 100% certain) that it's a penalty on the defense if you *deliberately* bat the ball. But even if that is the case, couldn't the offense decline that penalty? Either way, Cleveland gets the points.

 

[shadyridr]

1. conversion no good

2. conversion good

3. conversion no good

4. conversion no good

 

[shadyridr]

#1 - dead ball the moment Scott establishes possession. No score.#2 - 2 points for Cleveland*.#3 - this is a safety against the Jets, which counts as 1 point for Cleveland*.#4 - dead ball the moment Revis establishes possession. No score.* I think (but am not 100% certain) that it's a penalty on the defense if you *deliberately* bat the ball. But even if that is the case, couldn't the offense decline that penalty? Either way, Cleveland gets the points.

a 1 pt safety?

 

[renesauz]

Only #2 is good. Jets can't advance the ball...once they secure possession the play is dead so 1 and 4 = conversion no good.

#3 could be a penalty if the refs determines the Jets players deliberately knocked the ball OOB. IN that case...half the distance to the goal and retry. More likely the ref determines it went OOB accidentally, which would result in conversion no good.

 

[Joe Summer]

#1 - dead ball the moment Scott establishes possession. No score.#2 - 2 points for Cleveland*.#3 - this is a safety against the Jets, which counts as 1 point for Cleveland*.#4 - dead ball the moment Revis establishes possession. No score.* I think (but am not 100% certain) that it's a penalty on the defense if you *deliberately* bat the ball. But even if that is the case, couldn't the offense decline that penalty? Either way, Cleveland gets the points.

a 1 pt safety?

It's a little known rule. The offense can score a 1-point safety on a PAT.(By the way, the defense can NOT score a safety on a PAT in the NFL, even if they somehow tackled the ballcarrier in the opposite end zone 99 yards away).

 

[GregR]

Only #2 is good. Jets can't advance the ball...once they secure possession the play is dead so 1 and 4 = conversion no good.

#3 could be a penalty if the refs determines the Jets players deliberately knocked the ball OOB. IN that case...half the distance to the goal and retry. More likely the ref determines it went OOB accidentally, which would result in conversion no good.

For a ball in the field of play (as Scott is), it's only a penalty if he bats the ball towards his opponent's goal line. Since he batted it towards his own it isn't a penalty.If the ball had been in the end zone, then batting it any direction would be a 10 yard penalty.

 

[renesauz]

Only #2 is good. Jets can't advance the ball...once they secure possession the play is dead so 1 and 4 = conversion no good.

#3 could be a penalty if the refs determines the Jets players deliberately knocked the ball OOB. IN that case...half the distance to the goal and retry. More likely the ref determines it went OOB accidentally, which would result in conversion no good.

For a ball in the field of play (as Scott is), it's only a penalty if he bats the ball towards his opponent's goal line. Since he batted it towards his own it isn't a penalty.If the ball had been in the end zone, then batting it any direction would be a 10 yard penalty.

OK then...I'll just ccall it NO GOOD

 

[GregR]

Answers:

#1 Everyone's pretty much agreeing is no good. Correct, as soon as the defense gains possession the play is blown dead.

#2 everyone agrees too. Straight forward, Browns recover it in the end zone, 2 point conversion is good.

#3 Joe Summer got by knowing that a defensive player batting (or actually just providing impetus) a ball through his own end zone out of bounds is a safety. If it happens on a normal play it's a 2 point safety, but during a Try after a touchdown it's a 1 point safety. So Browns get points, but only 1. Troy Polamalu batted a ball through his end zone last year or the year before on a normal play from scrimmage, but the refs (the normal ones!) missed the call.

#4, I'm not 100% sure on... but I believe it is also a defensive safety with 1 point awarded to the Browns. The rules for a defensive safety read when an impetus by a team sends the ball behind its own goal line, and the ball is dead in the end zone in its possession or the ball is out of bounds behind the goal line. So Revis picking up the ball would make it a dead ball... and it would be in the Jets possession in the end zone. So I believe it would have the same result as if the ball went out of bounds and be a 1 point safety.

Next time I see Pereira active on Twitter I'll try hitting him up with #4 to confirm.

 

[Joe Summer]

#4, I'm not 100% sure on... but I believe it is also a defensive safety with 1 point awarded to the Browns. The rules for a defensive safety read when an impetus by a team sends the ball behind its own goal line, and the ball is dead in the end zone in its possession or the ball is out of bounds behind the goal line. So Revis picking up the ball would make it a dead ball... and it would be in the Jets possession in the end zone. So I believe it would have the same result as if the ball went out of bounds and be a 1 point safety.

Next time I see Pereira active on Twitter I'll try hitting him up with #4 to confirm.

My thought on #4: because the defense isn't allowed to ever possess the ball on a PAT, it's therefore not possible for the ball to be "dead in the end zone in its possession". Therefore, the play is dead as soon as the defense controls the ball.

 

[GregR]

#4, I'm not 100% sure on... but I believe it is also a defensive safety with 1 point awarded to the Browns. The rules for a defensive safety read when an impetus by a team sends the ball behind its own goal line, and the ball is dead in the end zone in its possession or the ball is out of bounds behind the goal line. So Revis picking up the ball would make it a dead ball... and it would be in the Jets possession in the end zone. So I believe it would have the same result as if the ball went out of bounds and be a 1 point safety.

Next time I see Pereira active on Twitter I'll try hitting him up with #4 to confirm.

My thought on #4: because the defense isn't allowed to ever possess the ball on a PAT, it's therefore not possible for the ball to be "dead in the end zone in its possession".

I believe the defense can possess the ball, just when they do it's a dead ball and the play is over. So they can't advance it, but they had to have gained possession for possession to have ended the play. Here's the rules (from the 2011 rule book) for results of a Try:

RESULTS OF A TRY

Article 2: Results of a Try. During a Try, the following shall apply:

(a) If a kick results in a field goal by the offense, one point is awarded. An artificial or manufactured tee

shall not be permitted to assist in the execution of a Try-kick. (The conditions of 11-4-1 must be met.)

The ball is dead as soon as it becomes evident that the kick has failed.

(b) If a Try results in a touchdown by the offense, two points are awarded. If a touchdown is not scored,

the Try is over at the end of the play.

(c) If the defense gains possession, the ball is dead immediately. The defensive team cannot score

during a Try.

(d) If there is no kick, and the Try results in what would ordinarily be a safety against the defense, one

point is awarded to the offensive team.

(e) If any play results in a touchback, the Try is unsuccessful, and there shall be no replay.

Incidentally, the 1 point safety for out of bounds is one of the examples given in that section:

A.R. 11.3 An attempted Try-kick is blocked. Offensive A1 recovers behind the line and advances across the goal line or recovers in defense’s end zone.

Ruling: No score in either case. The ball is dead as soon as its failure as a kick to score a Try is evident.

A.R. 11.4 During a Try, placekick holder A1 fumbles. B1 kicks, bats, or muffs the loose ball (new impetus) on his two yard line and it goes out of bounds behind the goal line.

Ruling: Ordinarily a safety (11-5-1). Award one point.