Youth Sports- Coach Jerk Move or Fair Game? (1 Viewer)

[Chadstroma]

Jerk move as a coach or fair game?

5th grade basketball. We played a team today that has the best player in the league. He is a very good ball player and it is all by skill set level domination as his athleticism is only above average. The team had another player that was above average player and then the rest of the team skill levels were below average.

Long story short... we went up 11 to 9 in first quarter but then my son, who is our best on ball defender who I had on their star got in foul trouble. Once he was out, they took us apart. The star player has played every minute and continues to play through where about mid 4th, game is well in hand, I pull most of my starters and play the bench, conceding the game. The star player is still in there. He doesn't take him out until about 1:30 mark when they are up by 20. To me, that is low class like you are just trying to run up the score. We often are on the other side of lopsided games and I will pull my best players and play my bench when I know the game is in hand. At this level, to me, it is the right thing to do. It is respectful to the players and other coach. Now, of course, it is our job to stop him and I didn't have to put my bench in but again, I think it is just a jerk move.

Am I off on this? I am wondering if I am being too sensitive about it or if it really is just a low class, jerk move. In the three years we have played, this is the first time ever that we lost by a wide margin like this. All of our losses have been no more than 3 points. Is it that I am not use to us losing like this or is it a legit gripe.

 

[Dickies]

In 5th grade I think playing time should be as equitable as is reasonable, so I strongly disagree with how that coach operates, but if I were on the other end of it I would just think to myself that he's doing a disservice to the growth of the rest of his team and move on from it.

 

[fruity pebbles]

You probably put a little scare in him going up in the 1st quarter. Guessing that hasn’t happened to them before and he kept his foot on the gas.

 

[Hot Diggity Dog]

My kid once lost a basketball game 57-2. It happens and we all survived. In the world of youth sports this doesn't seem like a really awful thing or disrespectful thing. As Dickies said it really hurts the kids on the other team more, but if you don't focus on it, I don't think it is going to negatively impact your team.

 

[Chadstroma]

In 5th grade I think playing time should be as equitable as is reasonable, so I strongly disagree with how that coach operates, but if I were on the other end of it I would just think to myself that he's doing a disservice to the growth of the rest of his team and move on from it.

The league is supposed to be 'equal playing time' the way that I do on my team is my bench players will get more time in games we are up in and the close games not as much but it ends up roughly 'equal' as much as I think you can realistically make it.

 

[Chadstroma]

You probably put a little scare in him going up in the 1st quarter. Guessing that hasn’t happened to them before and he kept his foot on the gas.

I think you may have nailed it actually. Judging from the teams we have played in the league where we are never outclassed and I will say one of the better teams (our overall record is now 13-3-1 and the two losses were early with missing players and we still shouldn't have lost but were 1 and 3 point losses.) I wouldn't be surprised if they have never been down in a quarter.

I can't wait for next year though.... it will be the first year of selection and our A team will be top heavy with talent and deep. This kid is still the best in the league but their talent level is going to drop a lot after him while we will have a bunch of very good players. I hope I coach that team.

 

[Chadstroma]

My kid once lost a basketball game 57-2. It happens and we all survived. In the world of youth sports this doesn't seem like a really awful thing or disrespectful thing. As Dickies said it really hurts the kids on the other team more, but if you don't focus on it, I don't think it is going to negatively impact your team.

At what age?

This is a 5th grade, technically "developmental" age by league rules where there is no selection and boys are supposed to get equal playing time. Next year, 6th grade, it is a little different to me. Selection happens with A and B teams and they are now in Jr High so less protection and more throwing to the wolves.

 

[Yo Mama]

In the youth league I help run, there are playing time restrictions depending on how many are on each team. If there are 7 or more players on a team, everyone sits at least a full quarter and nobody sits more than two (barring injury). Your league should do something like this, but I still vote jerk move.

 

[Hot Diggity Dog]

My kid once lost a basketball game 57-2. It happens and we all survived. In the world of youth sports this doesn't seem like a really awful thing or disrespectful thing. As Dickies said it really hurts the kids on the other team more, but if you don't focus on it, I don't think it is going to negatively impact your team.

At what age?

This is a 5th grade, technically "developmental" age by league rules where there is no selection and boys are supposed to get equal playing time. Next year, 6th grade, it is a little different to me. Selection happens with A and B teams and they are now in Jr High so less protection and more throwing to the wolves.

It was Middle School varsity level, like 7th and 8th graders. League had a rule about no full court press after you were up by 15, and the other team would meet our ball handlers at the mid court line and pressure and trap them once they got over the line. Complete overload on talent, skill, and intensity. Our basket came on one of the first possessions we had in the game, our one good ball handler snuck in for a basket. I think the other coach was going for a scoreless game and when that got blown up early, he was out for blood. Luckily our coach had a really good perspective on it and had our team laughing by the end of it, and that really help diffuse the situation that was brewing in the stands.
And that isn't even the worst thing that happened to one of my kids, mostly because no one was in danger of being injured during the game and there was an end in sight. I have stories from the softball field that are worse because there isn't a clock to end the game and there is a hard ball to throw at players.
I understand the emotion in the moment, having coached a lot of youth sports, but it helps to realize, no one gives a flying FOOK if you win or lose a youth sports game in a league like this. Do right by your kids and if someone needs validation on that level, it's on them.

 

[rockaction]

Why don't any white Americans play basketball anymore?

LOL. I'll show myself out.

 

[The Z Machine]

Why don't any white Americans play basketball anymore?

LOL. I'll show myself out.

There are plenty of white kids playing basketball all over the country from rec to travel ball. The best college hoops player in a generation is a white American (Caitlin Clark) and she's gonna be bombing 3s as a pro soon enough.

 

[rockaction]

There are plenty of white kids playing basketball all over the country from rec to travel ball. The best college hoops player in a generation is a white American (Caitlin Clark) and she's gonna be bombing 3s as a pro soon enough.

LOLOL Caitlin Clark.

LOLOLOLOL

I'll let you know when some white American is going all Phi Slamma Jamma on Ja Morant while Europeans are doing just fine in the NBA.

Something is going awry at the youth levels, it would seem. Or it's just a natural weeding out process whereupon the white kids go play other sports.

But that wasn't supposed to be a serious post on my end. It was supposed to be a nod to Top Secret, the movie.

I don't care that much. But it does seem weird that it doesn't seem to be a musculature/genetic thing stopping white Americans from rising ranks while their European counterparts are just fine.

 

[belljr]

losing by 20 doesn't isn't a a huge blow out - our 5th grade league everyone had to play 5 of 8 segments. Each quarter was divided in half with subs halfway through.

But if you are short on players i would have most kids play almost all game. Sure its a jerk move on his part but its not that bad.

 

[brun]

My kid once lost a basketball game 57-2. It happens and we all survived. In the world of youth sports this doesn't seem like a really awful thing or disrespectful thing. As Dickies said it really hurts the kids on the other team more, but if you don't focus on it, I don't think it is going to negatively impact your team.

At what age?

This is a 5th grade, technically "developmental" age by league rules where there is no selection and boys are supposed to get equal playing time. Next year, 6th grade, it is a little different to me. Selection happens with A and B teams and they are now in Jr High so less protection and more throwing to the wolves.

FWIW
Went to a new school in 8th grade and played on the school team. We lost our 1st game of the season 64-3, and our 2nd game 48-6.
These are the only 2 scores I remember from that season. However, I don't recall any dramatic responses to this by any of us players. Chances are, the coach was more upset, though I wouldn't know about that.
We did win 1 game, I don't recall the score but it was against the only school smaller than ours.

No social media back then. So, once it was done, it was done.

 

[ChiefD]

I've learned that nothing in youth sports is surprising. I'll just tell you this:

Don't take it personally and don't hem and haw about it in front of parents and especially your kids. All that does is teach those kids it's ok to complain about stuff like that. Your focus (and theirs) should be about THEIR game. Did they play their best? Did they give the best effort they had? Did they have fun playing?

As a parent who has dealt with scores of games like this, the only thing I said to my kids at the end of the game was: "I really enjoyed watching you play." That's all that matters.

 

[Keerock]

I've learned that nothing in youth sports is surprising. I'll just tell you this:

Don't take it personally and don't hem and haw about it in front of parents and especially your kids. All that does is teach those kids it's ok to complain about stuff like that. Your focus (and theirs) should be about THEIR game. Did they play their best? Did they give the best effort they had? Did they have fun playing?

As a parent who has dealt with scores of games like this, the only thing I said to my kids at the end of the game was: "I really enjoyed watching you play." That's all that matters.

This. The older my kids got, the more I realized it just doesn't matter. Coaches/players/parents/refs will all - at one point or another - grind your gears. Be your best, do what you feel is right for the kids, and let the rest go... not worth the angst.

 

[massraider]

5th grade isn't too young to learn that not every game is gonna be close, and learning how to handle a beating.

Take a crap situation, and try and make the kids better for it. Teaching them to do their best, even if they know they are going to lose.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Most of the teams I played on weren't very good. My Bantam hockey team played against a squad that would in high school be the state champions. Some fool scheduled us to play a double header over the weekend. We lost something like 11-1 and 13-2.

I walked away feeling like I learned a couple lessons. One was that there are some people out there that are really elite at what they do and that's pretty cool to be around.

The other is that it's my responsibility to get better - I don't want someone else taking it easy on me out of charity. I'd rather get an opponent's best than have them pick their spot on how badly they want to beat me.

 

[Chadstroma]

Why don't any white Americans play basketball anymore?

LOL. I'll show myself out.

They do.... they just don't get taught fundamentals and practice like the Euro's do. It is all flash and street ball with "exposure" playing tons of games in AAU etc. In the US, unless you have ridiculous athletic talent you don't survive. Meanwhile, the Euro's are working hard on their craft. You get one with good size (or good athleticism) and then he ends up winning Championships and being MVP while looking like a tall dope. But that is a different discussion really.

 

[rockaction]

They do.... they just don't get taught fundamentals and practice like the Euro's do. It is all flash and street ball with "exposure" playing tons of games in AAU etc. In the US, unless you have ridiculous athletic talent you don't survive. Meanwhile, the Euro's are working hard on their craft. You get one with good size (or good athleticism) and then he ends up winning Championships and being MVP while looking like a tall dope. But that is a different discussion really.

Yep. It's a totally different discussion and one I was really kidding about. It was more a "what is the most inappropriate thing I could say about youth sports" here and I went with an old Top Secret joke as applied to another old joke about the disappearance of American whites from basketball.

Have no idea why. It is a serious discussion to be had, but not here, and I probably shouldn't have said it.

But there it is in all its glory.

 

[Chadstroma]

There are plenty of white kids playing basketball all over the country from rec to travel ball. The best college hoops player in a generation is a white American (Caitlin Clark) and she's gonna be bombing 3s as a pro soon enough.

LOLOL Caitlin Clark.

LOLOLOLOL

I'll let you know when some white American is going all Phi Slamma Jamma on Ja Morant while Europeans are doing just fine in the NBA.

Something is going awry at the youth levels, it would seem. Or it's just a natural weeding out process whereupon the white kids go play other sports.

But that wasn't supposed to be a serious post on my end. It was supposed to be a nod to Top Secret, the movie.

I don't care that much. But it does seem weird that it doesn't seem to be a musculature/genetic thing stopping white Americans from rising ranks while their European counterparts are just fine.

I touched on it. I think it is a lot about how the club/AAU structure is.... as you get up the ladder of skill it becomes all about 'exposure' so they will play like 4 or 5 games a week but maybe practice once. I saw a clip not long ago of a coach talking about an AAU team he had that would have a couple of eventual NBA players and a few more D1 players. They did well one year. Next year, he lost 3 or 4 of them and when he went to find out why, it was because another AAU coach told them "You don't need to practice, just come to the games." Another thing is the money aspect, many of these coaches are driven by making money.... having a club team, doing clinics/camps, etc. So their focus is on winning so they get the credibility to charge people more and the focus on long term development is not even considered.

There is an outfit nearby us which I like a lot and have encouraged my team to attend their clinics. They do a great job at focusing on fundamentals of the game. But my only gripe is out of all the different clinics/camps etc that they have only one has some of it on defense. None on rebounding. It is all offensive skill development. Dribbling, driving, shooting, etc.

 

[acarey50]

In 5th grade I think playing time should be as equitable as is reasonable, so I strongly disagree with how that coach operates, but if I were on the other end of it I would just think to myself that he's doing a disservice to the growth of the rest of his team and move on from it.

The league is supposed to be 'equal playing time' the way that I do on my team is my bench players will get more time in games we are up in and the close games not as much but it ends up roughly 'equal' as much as I think you can realistically make it.

In the youth league I help run, there are playing time restrictions depending on how many are on each team. If there are 7 or more players on a team, everyone sits at least a full quarter and nobody sits more than two (barring injury). Your league should do something like this, but I still vote jerk move.

As @Yo Mama mentions, if your league was truly about "equitable" or relatively "equal" play time, this could easily be enforced via rules. The rec league that I still help out with has these kinds rules in place. They play the games as 5 8-minute periods. In the first 4 periods, there's no subs, those are done at the end of each quarter. Every player must sit at least one full period in those first 4 periods, and every kid must play 1 full period in each half. The 5th period is open substitution. If a player has not sat in the first 4 periods, thy are not eligible to play in the 5th period.

There are also player advantage rules in place for teams that have short rosters - for example, if you only have 6 players at a game and the other team has 8, the coach with 8 picks which player for the team with 6 sits in the 3rd period. That way, the best player can not play the entire game. I'd need to look at the most current version of the rules, but they also used to award points to the team with more players in the first and third quarters as part of the player advantage rule, as in theory the best players for the team with less players would be playing more. Something like 4 points at the start of the game, and another 4 at the start of the 3rd quarter if additional players were not there by half time. You'd be amazed by what some coaches will do to win even in 3rd grade rec, such as telling their worst players that a game was cancelled so they wouldn't be at the game, which is the actual case that necessitated the addition of this type of rule.

There are also rules in place for blowouts (mercy rule). In this particular league, a team that is up by 20 or more can not play defense outside of the 3 point line*. As the league is rec, teams are not allowed to play defense in the backcourt for the first 4 periods, with 5th period being full court allowed, other than the mercy rule.

This league also has a slightly higher, still recish division, with rules that are more akin to high school rules - open subs, press anytime but still mercy rule in place.

* While I like the intent of the mercy rule, especially since often times in blow out it's because the losing team simply does not have players capable of making decent passes or hitting any shots, the unintended consequence of the rule is that it makes it even harder for the team to score, as now all 5 defenders are packed into the 3 point circle, making it even harder for the losing team to get an open easy shot. I don't have a better idea really though that makes sense, and this league has used this type of rule for 20 plus years.

 

[belljr]

In 5th grade I think playing time should be as equitable as is reasonable, so I strongly disagree with how that coach operates, but if I were on the other end of it I would just think to myself that he's doing a disservice to the growth of the rest of his team and move on from it.

The league is supposed to be 'equal playing time' the way that I do on my team is my bench players will get more time in games we are up in and the close games not as much but it ends up roughly 'equal' as much as I think you can realistically make it.

In the youth league I help run, there are playing time restrictions depending on how many are on each team. If there are 7 or more players on a team, everyone sits at least a full quarter and nobody sits more than two (barring injury). Your league should do something like this, but I still vote jerk move.

As @Yo Mama mentions, if your league was truly about "equitable" or relatively "equal" play time, this could easily be enforced via rules. The rec league that I still help out with has these kinds rules in place. They play the games as 5 8-minute periods. In the first 4 periods, there's no subs, those are done at the end of each quarter. Every player must sit at least one full period in those first 4 periods, and every kid must play 1 full period in each half. The 5th period is open substitution. If a player has not sat in the first 4 periods, thy are not eligible to play in the 5th period.

There are also player advantage rules in place for teams that have short rosters - for example, if you only have 6 players at a game and the other team has 8, the coach with 8 picks which player for the team with 6 sits in the 3rd period. That way, the best player can not play the entire game. I'd need to look at the most current version of the rules, but they also used to award points to the team with more players in the first and third quarters as part of the player advantage rule, as in theory the best players for the team with less players would be playing more. Something like 4 points at the start of the game, and another 4 at the start of the 3rd quarter if additional players were not there by half time. You'd be amazed by what some coaches will do to win even in 3rd grade rec, such as telling their worst players that a game was cancelled so they wouldn't be at the game, which is the actual case that necessitated the addition of this type of rule.

There are also rules in place for blowouts (mercy rule). In this particular league, a team that is up by 20 or more can not play defense outside of the 3 point line*. As the league is rec, teams are not allowed to play defense in the backcourt for the first 4 periods, with 5th period being full court allowed, other than the mercy rule.

This league also has a slightly higher, still recish division, with rules that are more akin to high school rules - open subs, press anytime but still mercy rule in place.

* While I like the intent of the mercy rule, especially since often times in blow out it's because the losing team simply does not have players capable of making decent passes or hitting any shots, the unintended consequence of the rule is that it makes it even harder for the team to score, as now all 5 defenders are packed into the 3 point circle, making it even harder for the losing team to get an open easy shot. I don't have a better idea really though that makes sense, and this league has used this type of rule for 20 plus years.

So your blow out is 20...... which I agree with.

I think in the OP case - I agree with him in general but the score was on the borderline of mercy rules so I think he is taking it a "bit overboard" was my point.

I don't disagree with the decision or feeling but it is also not as egregious and its being made out to be

 

[ChiefD]

* While I like the intent of the mercy rule, especially since often times in blow out it's because the losing team simply does not have players capable of making decent passes or hitting any shots, the unintended consequence of the rule is that it makes it even harder for the team to score, as now all 5 defenders are packed into the 3 point circle, making it even harder for the losing team to get an open easy shot. I don't have a better idea really though that makes sense, and this league has used this type of rule for 20 plus years.

Has there ever been any discussion for having the team that is way up play with 4 players instead of 5? Maybe based on points or something?

Once you go up by 20 you play with 4 players.

You go up by 30 you play with 3?

I don't know if that makes the losing team feel bad but maybe the 4 player thing might work.

 

[Chadstroma]

They do.... they just don't get taught fundamentals and practice like the Euro's do. It is all flash and street ball with "exposure" playing tons of games in AAU etc. In the US, unless you have ridiculous athletic talent you don't survive. Meanwhile, the Euro's are working hard on their craft. You get one with good size (or good athleticism) and then he ends up winning Championships and being MVP while looking like a tall dope. But that is a different discussion really.

Yep. It's a totally different discussion and one I was really kidding about. It was more a "what is the most inappropriate thing I could say about youth sports" here and I went with an old Top Secret joke as applied to another old joke about the disappearance of American whites from basketball.

Have no idea why. It is a serious discussion to be had, but not here, and I probably shouldn't have said it.

But there it is in all its glory.

With the white thing... I think socioeconomics and subculture play huge factors. African Americans males are often driven into Football and/or Basketball and Track. Of course this isn't 100% but on the socioeconomics, all you need is a basketball and you can practice and play all day long for free. Football takes a little more but the subculture around it makes it a priority to make it work financially for most even if it is a hardship. The numbers of black Americans have really fallen in Baseball with most of African decent coming from Carribean or Central/South America. There is also a huge premium places on young American black males to be an athlete. Again, I think that is subculture and socioeconomics of it all. Baseball has become very expensive.

For white Americans, a top athlete may end up playing hockey or lacrosse or swim or socccer or baseball or football or whatever other sport. Basketball is a loved sport but nothing more special than any other sports subculturally and in some areas inferior to other sports subculturally.

 

[Chadstroma]

losing by 20 doesn't isn't a a huge blow out - our 5th grade league everyone had to play 5 of 8 segments. Each quarter was divided in half with subs halfway through.

But if you are short on players i would have most kids play almost all game. Sure its a jerk move on his part but its not that bad.

It isn't structured like that in our leagues and the way I do it is balancing it out over the season versus each individual game. My bench prob played a third of this game. Honestly, if we were in it they would have played less but then come today's game where we last beat the team by 10, once we have the game in hand, my bench gets more playing time and will end up playing a majority of the game which is a big reason why we only beat this team by 10 last time. If I had my starters in, the margin would have been much more.

 

[Chadstroma]

My kid once lost a basketball game 57-2. It happens and we all survived. In the world of youth sports this doesn't seem like a really awful thing or disrespectful thing. As Dickies said it really hurts the kids on the other team more, but if you don't focus on it, I don't think it is going to negatively impact your team.

At what age?

This is a 5th grade, technically "developmental" age by league rules where there is no selection and boys are supposed to get equal playing time. Next year, 6th grade, it is a little different to me. Selection happens with A and B teams and they are now in Jr High so less protection and more throwing to the wolves.

FWIW
Went to a new school in 8th grade and played on the school team. We lost our 1st game of the season 64-3, and our 2nd game 48-6.
These are the only 2 scores I remember from that season. However, I don't recall any dramatic responses to this by any of us players. Chances are, the coach was more upset, though I wouldn't know about that.
We did win 1 game, I don't recall the score but it was against the only school smaller than ours.

No social media back then. So, once it was done, it was done.

My boys will bounce back. The loss will be good for them. Humbling as we win more than we lose and just came off a tournament win. Sometimes you need a loss to refocus and get serious again and not fool yourself into thinking it is easy.

 

[Chadstroma]

I've learned that nothing in youth sports is surprising. I'll just tell you this:

Don't take it personally and don't hem and haw about it in front of parents and especially your kids. All that does is teach those kids it's ok to complain about stuff like that. Your focus (and theirs) should be about THEIR game. Did they play their best? Did they give the best effort they had? Did they have fun playing?

As a parent who has dealt with scores of games like this, the only thing I said to my kids at the end of the game was: "I really enjoyed watching you play." That's all that matters.

Oh yea, not a peep to the kids. I only commented to my AC's after the game and our AD who was there which amounted to "the jerk played him almost the whole game while up 20" and then vented here and in a FB Basketball coaches group I am in.

Into the third and fourth, my focus with them was composure. That I didn't care what the scoreboard said as long as we keep our composure and keep fighting. My best four players, including my son, are all suspectable to breaking down mentally in frustration to the point of tears. They are all very competitive and when things break against us they are still learning how to handle it. Developing mental toughness is prob the hardest thing to coach but it has been a focus for me all season long.

My son actually did not break down mentally. It might have helped that before the game I told him "You are getting a tough assignment. If this kid is as good as everyone says, you will get beat. He will score. I can't have you getting mad or frustrated, I just need you to keep at it and slow him down as best you can. And don't foul." He did great with most of that except the last part. I told him after the game (two separate times, once in the car and once later at home to really reinforce it) that I was proud of him for keeping his composure though the game.

 

[QuizGuy66]

How many players on your team @Chadstroma ? Just figuring how many opportunities to foul their star player til they get the message

(The above is tongue on cheek of course - I remember my high school's team which had 1 kid setting state scoring records, his brother who was good and everyone else basically a schmo and I'd see the star kid on the hallway looking like he had been attacked in an alley all the time).

Need a ruling from @SWC on this

-QG

 

[Chadstroma]

I've learned that nothing in youth sports is surprising. I'll just tell you this:

Don't take it personally and don't hem and haw about it in front of parents and especially your kids. All that does is teach those kids it's ok to complain about stuff like that. Your focus (and theirs) should be about THEIR game. Did they play their best? Did they give the best effort they had? Did they have fun playing?

As a parent who has dealt with scores of games like this, the only thing I said to my kids at the end of the game was: "I really enjoyed watching you play." That's all that matters.

This. The older my kids got, the more I realized it just doesn't matter. Coaches/players/parents/refs will all - at one point or another - grind your gears. Be your best, do what you feel is right for the kids, and let the rest go... not worth the angst.

Yea, this post was largely about me venting and then also checking myself on is this something that is worth to vent about as well.

 

[Chadstroma]

5th grade isn't too young to learn that not every game is gonna be close, and learning how to handle a beating.

Take a crap situation, and try and make the kids better for it. Teaching them to do their best, even if they know they are going to lose.

Yup, that was my message to them pretty much as we started to get creamed. I didn't care about the scoreboard, I want them to keep their composure and play hard.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

5th grade isn't too young to learn that not every game is gonna be close, and learning how to handle a beating.

Take a crap situation, and try and make the kids better for it. Teaching them to do their best, even if they know they are going to lose.

Yup, that was my message to them pretty much as we started to get creamed. I didn't care about the scoreboard, I want them to keep their composure and play hard.

In that case - I, for one, think you coached well given the situation.

 

[Chadstroma]

Most of the teams I played on weren't very good. My Bantam hockey team played against a squad that would in high school be the state champions. Some fool scheduled us to play a double header over the weekend. We lost something like 11-1 and 13-2.

I walked away feeling like I learned a couple lessons. One was that there are some people out there that are really elite at what they do and that's pretty cool to be around.

The other is that it's my responsibility to get better - I don't want someone else taking it easy on me out of charity. I'd rather get an opponent's best than have them pick their spot on how badly they want to beat me.

The conversation I had with my son was to point out that athletically, that kid was not in his league BUT that all the times I talk about working to get better at least 1% every day developing your skills... that that kid was doing that. That you have to remember that there is always someone out there that is willing to give up video game times to win. That kid was a fine tuned machine that is the result of a lot of time and practice invested. Apparently, the whole family is a big basketball family and like everyone in the Catholic community knows who they are.

 

[Chadstroma]

In 5th grade I think playing time should be as equitable as is reasonable, so I strongly disagree with how that coach operates, but if I were on the other end of it I would just think to myself that he's doing a disservice to the growth of the rest of his team and move on from it.

The league is supposed to be 'equal playing time' the way that I do on my team is my bench players will get more time in games we are up in and the close games not as much but it ends up roughly 'equal' as much as I think you can realistically make it.

In the youth league I help run, there are playing time restrictions depending on how many are on each team. If there are 7 or more players on a team, everyone sits at least a full quarter and nobody sits more than two (barring injury). Your league should do something like this, but I still vote jerk move.

As @Yo Mama mentions, if your league was truly about "equitable" or relatively "equal" play time, this could easily be enforced via rules. The rec league that I still help out with has these kinds rules in place. They play the games as 5 8-minute periods. In the first 4 periods, there's no subs, those are done at the end of each quarter. Every player must sit at least one full period in those first 4 periods, and every kid must play 1 full period in each half. The 5th period is open substitution. If a player has not sat in the first 4 periods, thy are not eligible to play in the 5th period.

There are also player advantage rules in place for teams that have short rosters - for example, if you only have 6 players at a game and the other team has 8, the coach with 8 picks which player for the team with 6 sits in the 3rd period. That way, the best player can not play the entire game. I'd need to look at the most current version of the rules, but they also used to award points to the team with more players in the first and third quarters as part of the player advantage rule, as in theory the best players for the team with less players would be playing more. Something like 4 points at the start of the game, and another 4 at the start of the 3rd quarter if additional players were not there by half time. You'd be amazed by what some coaches will do to win even in 3rd grade rec, such as telling their worst players that a game was cancelled so they wouldn't be at the game, which is the actual case that necessitated the addition of this type of rule.

There are also rules in place for blowouts (mercy rule). In this particular league, a team that is up by 20 or more can not play defense outside of the 3 point line*. As the league is rec, teams are not allowed to play defense in the backcourt for the first 4 periods, with 5th period being full court allowed, other than the mercy rule.

This league also has a slightly higher, still recish division, with rules that are more akin to high school rules - open subs, press anytime but still mercy rule in place.

* While I like the intent of the mercy rule, especially since often times in blow out it's because the losing team simply does not have players capable of making decent passes or hitting any shots, the unintended consequence of the rule is that it makes it even harder for the team to score, as now all 5 defenders are packed into the 3 point circle, making it even harder for the losing team to get an open easy shot. I don't have a better idea really though that makes sense, and this league has used this type of rule for 20 plus years.

This league, the playing time is supposed to be "equal" but there really is no enforcement of it and it does not specify that equal means per game.

They have a mercy rule but that is that their defense must stay in the paint. That wouldn't do much for us unless I wanted to have my one shooter who is in a shooting slump sling 3's and hope we get the rebound. So, I waived it as the one advantage we definitely had was that they couldn't stop my big guy. It was foul or him missing the shot.

 

[Chadstroma]

In 5th grade I think playing time should be as equitable as is reasonable, so I strongly disagree with how that coach operates, but if I were on the other end of it I would just think to myself that he's doing a disservice to the growth of the rest of his team and move on from it.

The league is supposed to be 'equal playing time' the way that I do on my team is my bench players will get more time in games we are up in and the close games not as much but it ends up roughly 'equal' as much as I think you can realistically make it.

In the youth league I help run, there are playing time restrictions depending on how many are on each team. If there are 7 or more players on a team, everyone sits at least a full quarter and nobody sits more than two (barring injury). Your league should do something like this, but I still vote jerk move.

As @Yo Mama mentions, if your league was truly about "equitable" or relatively "equal" play time, this could easily be enforced via rules. The rec league that I still help out with has these kinds rules in place. They play the games as 5 8-minute periods. In the first 4 periods, there's no subs, those are done at the end of each quarter. Every player must sit at least one full period in those first 4 periods, and every kid must play 1 full period in each half. The 5th period is open substitution. If a player has not sat in the first 4 periods, thy are not eligible to play in the 5th period.

There are also player advantage rules in place for teams that have short rosters - for example, if you only have 6 players at a game and the other team has 8, the coach with 8 picks which player for the team with 6 sits in the 3rd period. That way, the best player can not play the entire game. I'd need to look at the most current version of the rules, but they also used to award points to the team with more players in the first and third quarters as part of the player advantage rule, as in theory the best players for the team with less players would be playing more. Something like 4 points at the start of the game, and another 4 at the start of the 3rd quarter if additional players were not there by half time. You'd be amazed by what some coaches will do to win even in 3rd grade rec, such as telling their worst players that a game was cancelled so they wouldn't be at the game, which is the actual case that necessitated the addition of this type of rule.

There are also rules in place for blowouts (mercy rule). In this particular league, a team that is up by 20 or more can not play defense outside of the 3 point line*. As the league is rec, teams are not allowed to play defense in the backcourt for the first 4 periods, with 5th period being full court allowed, other than the mercy rule.

This league also has a slightly higher, still recish division, with rules that are more akin to high school rules - open subs, press anytime but still mercy rule in place.

* While I like the intent of the mercy rule, especially since often times in blow out it's because the losing team simply does not have players capable of making decent passes or hitting any shots, the unintended consequence of the rule is that it makes it even harder for the team to score, as now all 5 defenders are packed into the 3 point circle, making it even harder for the losing team to get an open easy shot. I don't have a better idea really though that makes sense, and this league has used this type of rule for 20 plus years.

So your blow out is 20...... which I agree with.

I think in the OP case - I agree with him in general but the score was on the borderline of mercy rules so I think he is taking it a "bit overboard" was my point.

I don't disagree with the decision or feeling but it is also not as egregious and its being made out to be

I am not sure I am making it out to be egregious. I originally asked the question which was conceding that it very well could not be a big deal and that it was me.

 

[Anarchy99]

There was a town with some great players and coaches that stayed together and won 3 consecutive state HS championships. Our boys got taken to the woodshed every year. One game they were down like 62-9 at halftime, mostly because we had a younger team and they kept pressing. The refs tried to get the head coach to call off the dogs, play his backups, and show some sportsmanship. The coach refused and told the ref not to tell him how to do his job, so they implemented a running clock for the entire second half. They got motivated to try to break 100 points, but the refs fabricated some violations and foul calls to prevent it. The final score ended up something like 98-27. We played them 6 times over the years and the closest we got was losing by 40 points. Until . . .

When my son was a senior, his team had way more experience. Both teams were in the Top 5 in the state, and we played them at home and the place was rocking. We ended up blowing them out, my son scored 20+ points in the second half, and he was so into it that he had 3 dunks in the last few minutes where he posterized defenders. The entire gym was shaking. To put things in perspective, that team only had 5 losses in 4 years (by a combined 8 points). We beat them by 20.

Unfortunately, that was the COVID season, and the two teams were set to faceoff in the end of season state tournament. That team refused to play, saying any games were a health and safety risk. As such, the rest of the tournament got cancelled and never was rescheduled. As the highest remaining seed, they were awarded their 4th straight state championship. That part blew chunks, but finally exorcising a lot of demons in that one game was about as good as it possibly gets.

 

[Chadstroma]

How many players on your team @Chadstroma ? Just figuring how many opportunities to foul their star player til they get the message

(The above is tongue on cheek of course - I remember my high school's team which had 1 kid setting state scoring records, his brother who was good and everyone else basically a schmo and I'd see the star kid on the hallway looking like he had been attacked in an alley all the time).

Need a ruling from @SWC on this

-QG

we have 8. My starters which I really can't win without and then my three bench players. My three bench players couldn't hurt a fly because they wouldn't want to and if they did they would like bounce off the fly. But alas, even if I had the personnel, that is not my style and not what I would want to teach these boys.

We have played exclusively M2M which has been effective but has largely been my belief that M2M at young ages is the best way to develop the kids for long term. A couple of weeks ago, I started to install a Triangle and 2 junk defense with this team specifically in mind. However, I did not use it in this game for three reasons 1) This was a home game. All of our home games are on Youtube live and then kept there. Other teams, specially in playoffs, will use it to scout. 2) I wanted to be able to spring this on them in the playoffs and not get them ready for it now. 3) We still need more time to practice it. If we play them again, which if we do would most likely be the Championship game for one of our leagues, we will use it. My two will double their star and the three below keep the rest from scoring and shut down him driving the lanes. He does favor his left but it isn't like he can't use his right. So the plan will be my son to line up against him slightly to the left and them my quickest player to double on his left side. My son can stay up on him to shut down most opportunities for him to shoot (which the kid is dang near automatic with his shooting) and the triangle below should be able to block his advancement if he splits my double. I plan on using it tonight and our upcoming games to get them boys use to it more.

We did a good job at going after their second best player and getting him in foul trouble. Next go around, we need to do that to the star more so than the second fiddle but ideally both. The second best was easy as we fed our big guy and then he would hack him because he was out classed down low. The star is a little harder because he plays good disciplined defense but he does take some chances with swipes. I tried to get my PG to understand how he can use it, they he needs to change speed with a burst right when he comes up on him and slightly change direction towards him and he will pick up some fouls. Likewise, their star is very adept at when he drives and the defense collapses, if he gets caught he will initiate just enough contact to force a foul but not get an offensive foul. I need to help coach my boys on being able to hold their position while coming to help and not giving him that opportunity.

If we get the star in foul trouble, game over. If we can slow him down and force the rest of the team to do something. Game over. It won't be easy but there is a road map to an upset if we get that chance.

 

[Drunken knight]

I think a little of both.

you think about how you want to impact the lives for the kids, families, and communities... and develop their love for the game. With a game in hand, that coach did not add benefit to his team, the league nor the community. an experienced coach sees this as an opportunity to develop the other players and team by more game time and practicing new/weaker plays and strategy.

you are being a bit sensitive (pretty justified). stay your coarse. play your game. make things better

 

[Chadstroma]

There was a town with some great players and coaches that stayed together and won 3 consecutive state HS championships. Our boys got taken to the woodshed every year. One game they were down like 62-9 at halftime, mostly because we had a younger team and they kept pressing. The refs tried to get the head coach to call off the dogs, play his backups, and show some sportsmanship. The coach refused and told the ref not to tell him how to do his job, so they implemented a running clock for the entire second half. They got motivated to try to break 100 points, but the refs fabricated some violations and foul calls to prevent it. The final score ended up something like 98-27. We played them 6 times over the years and the closest we got was losing by 40 points. Until . . .

When my son was a senior, his team had way more experience. Both teams were in the Top 5 in the state, and we played them at home and the place was rocking. We ended up blowing them out, my son scored 20+ points in the second half, and he was so into it that he had 3 dunks in the last few minutes where he posterized defenders. The entire gym was shaking. To put things in perspective, that team only had 5 losses in 4 years (by a combined 8 points). We beat them by 20.

Unfortunately, that was the COVID season, and the two teams were set to faceoff in the end of season state tournament. That team refused to play, saying any games were a health and safety risk. As such, the rest of the tournament got cancelled and never was rescheduled. As the highest remaining seed, they were awarded their 4th straight state championship. That part blew chunks, but finally exorcising a lot of demons in that one game was about as good as it possibly gets.

Yea, sure.... they were worried about the health risks... yup. Ok.

 

[GroveDiesel]

I think he was wrong but that you handled it the right way.

IMO, he was primarily wrong because that age should still be about development and he is hindering the development of his other players by playing his star too much.

Frankly, sports should be primarily development focused until high school varsity. Very very very few kids are going to even get to the point where they get college scholarships to play a certain sport, so helping all the kids improve their game and learn good life lessons in the process is more important and more overall beneficial to all the kids than focusing on winning.

 

[rockaction]

Unfortunately, that was the COVID season, and the two teams were set to faceoff in the end of season state tournament. That team refused to play, saying any games were a health and safety risk. As such, the rest of the tournament got cancelled and never was rescheduled. As the highest remaining seed, they were awarded their 4th straight state championship. That part blew chunks, but finally exorcising a lot of demons in that one game was about as good as it possibly gets.

This just made me a bit . . . angry? Good on your son and his team for winning that game, though. Must have felt good.

 

[jobarules]

They are 5th graders. Im not saying dont try and win the game but when the game is out of hand absolutely get the bench players some playing time. Anything else is despicable. At that level I always coached development first and winning second. Get used it to it though. There are scumbag coaches at every age level.

 

[Spin]

Most of the teams I played on weren't very good. My Bantam hockey team played against a squad that would in high school be the state champions. Some fool scheduled us to play a double header over the weekend. We lost something like 11-1 and 13-2.

I walked away feeling like I learned a couple lessons. One was that there are some people out there that are really elite at what they do and that's pretty cool to be around.

The other is that it's my responsibility to get better - I don't want someone else taking it easy on me out of charity. I'd rather get an opponent's best than have them pick their spot on how badly they want to beat me.

My youngest plays goalie for his A1 squirt team. The other goalie had the flu so he was the only goalie for this past weekend. The tournament put us in AA division for some god awful reason, and after all 4 games the total score was 1-52, and he faced 201 shots.

He learned some valuable lessons this weekend, and the skill gap between A and AA was extremely apparent. Surprisingly, he also had a great attitude. Pekka Rinne once gave a speech at a goalie camp he was at, and told him that in order to be great at goalie, you need to have 10,000 goals scored against you, so after this weekend when I asked him how he was feeling he said, "that's 52 more goals towards my 10k!". We also learned that youth hockey coaches can be complete dicks and continue to run up the score even when we were clearly outmatched in every game.

 

[jobarules]

Most of the teams I played on weren't very good. My Bantam hockey team played against a squad that would in high school be the state champions. Some fool scheduled us to play a double header over the weekend. We lost something like 11-1 and 13-2.

I walked away feeling like I learned a couple lessons. One was that there are some people out there that are really elite at what they do and that's pretty cool to be around.

The other is that it's my responsibility to get better - I don't want someone else taking it easy on me out of charity. I'd rather get an opponent's best than have them pick their spot on how badly they want to beat me.

My youngest plays goalie for his A1 squirt team. The other goalie had the flu so he was the only goalie for this past weekend. The tournament put us in AA division for some god awful reason, and after all 4 games the total score was 1-52, and he faced 201 shots.

He learned some valuable lessons this weekend, and the skill gap between A and AA was extremely apparent. Surprisingly, he also had a great attitude. Pekka Rinne once gave a speech at a goalie camp he was at, and told him that in order to be great at goalie, you need to have 10,000 goals scored against you, so after this weekend when I asked him how he was feeling he said, "that's 52 more goals towards my 10k!". We also learned that youth hockey coaches can be complete dicks and continue to run up the score even when we were clearly outmatched in every game.

Yeah this past weekend ABSOLUTELY will make him a better goalie

 

[QuizGuy66]

How many players on your team @Chadstroma ? Just figuring how many opportunities to foul their star player til they get the message

(The above is tongue on cheek of course - I remember my high school's team which had 1 kid setting state scoring records, his brother who was good and everyone else basically a schmo and I'd see the star kid on the hallway looking like he had been attacked in an alley all the time).

Need a ruling from @SWC on this

-QG

we have 8. My starters which I really can't win without and then my three bench players. My three bench players couldn't hurt a fly because they wouldn't want to and if they did they would like bounce off the fly. But alas, even if I had the personnel, that is not my style and not what I would want to teach these boys.

We have played exclusively M2M which has been effective but has largely been my belief that M2M at young ages is the best way to develop the kids for long term. A couple of weeks ago, I started to install a Triangle and 2 junk defense with this team specifically in mind. However, I did not use it in this game for three reasons 1) This was a home game. All of our home games are on Youtube live and then kept there. Other teams, specially in playoffs, will use it to scout. 2) I wanted to be able to spring this on them in the playoffs and not get them ready for it now. 3) We still need more time to practice it. If we play them again, which if we do would most likely be the Championship game for one of our leagues, we will use it. My two will double their star and the three below keep the rest from scoring and shut down him driving the lanes. He does favor his left but it isn't like he can't use his right. So the plan will be my son to line up against him slightly to the left and them my quickest player to double on his left side. My son can stay up on him to shut down most opportunities for him to shoot (which the kid is dang near automatic with his shooting) and the triangle below should be able to block his advancement if he splits my double. I plan on using it tonight and our upcoming games to get them boys use to it more.

We did a good job at going after their second best player and getting him in foul trouble. Next go around, we need to do that to the star more so than the second fiddle but ideally both. The second best was easy as we fed our big guy and then he would hack him because he was out classed down low. The star is a little harder because he plays good disciplined defense but he does take some chances with swipes. I tried to get my PG to understand how he can use it, they he needs to change speed with a burst right when he comes up on him and slightly change direction towards him and he will pick up some fouls. Likewise, their star is very adept at when he drives and the defense collapses, if he gets caught he will initiate just enough contact to force a foul but not get an offensive foul. I need to help coach my boys on being able to hold their position while coming to help and not giving him that opportunity.

If we get the star in foul trouble, game over. If we can slow him down and force the rest of the team to do something. Game over. It won't be easy but there is a road map to an upset if we get that chance.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

That said in the movie version when you are about to play the championship game there will be a scene where you say "Boys welcome our new special assistant coach for this game, Coach @Ministry of Pain "


-QG

 

[nirad3]

Yeah probably a jerk move. Maybe he thinks that by keeping the star player in most if not all of the game, he will just continue to get better and better. Maybe the coach just doesn't care about the progress of the kids that ride the bench.

 

[rockaction]

The other is that it's my responsibility to get better - I don't want someone else taking it easy on me out of charity. I'd rather get an opponent's best than have them pick their spot on how badly they want to beat me.

I played high school in a fairly elite league called the Founders League (I was not an elite player for that league). We were a middling team, one that could compete, but would get beat handily by the better schools in the league. (The elite of the Northeast elite.) One time, and I can remember clear as day, we had a school not carry two of their quality players on a trip to play us. They barely squeaked by us. I'll never forget being actually mad at that. Like, I would have rather gotten blown out than have them think they could leave their best guys home and get away with a walk in the park.

Long, maybe but not really humblebrag, way of saying I totally see your point.

 

[Dickies]

I've learned that nothing in youth sports is surprising. I'll just tell you this:

Don't take it personally and don't hem and haw about it in front of parents and especially your kids. All that does is teach those kids it's ok to complain about stuff like that. Your focus (and theirs) should be about THEIR game. Did they play their best? Did they give the best effort they had? Did they have fun playing?

As a parent who has dealt with scores of games like this, the only thing I said to my kids at the end of the game was: "I really enjoyed watching you play." That's all that matters.

Thank you for this, you are my dream parent. On the teams that I coach I stress to the parents before the season that this is all I want them to tell their kids after the game. Very few actually hold to it, but it usually has a positive impact on their attitude and effort on the field.

 

[Gally]

Has there ever been any discussion for having the team that is way up play with 4 players instead of 5? Maybe based on points or something?

Once you go up by 20 you play with 4 players.

You go up by 30 you play with 3?

I don't know if that makes the losing team feel bad but maybe the 4 player thing might work.

I am not a fan of this approach. Blowouts happen in sports. It is part of the game. Doing something this obvious is a worse slap to the face then just losing big. But pulling better players out to let other players develop and get chances at doing more is part of what a 5th grade coach should be focusing on. That is the way to address blowouts but not all coaches will do that.

 

[Dickies]

How many players on your team @Chadstroma ? Just figuring how many opportunities to foul their star player til they get the message

(The above is tongue on cheek of course - I remember my high school's team which had 1 kid setting state scoring records, his brother who was good and everyone else basically a schmo and I'd see the star kid on the hallway looking like he had been attacked in an alley all the time).

Need a ruling from @SWC on this

-QG

we have 8. My starters which I really can't win without and then my three bench players. My three bench players couldn't hurt a fly because they wouldn't want to and if they did they would like bounce off the fly. But alas, even if I had the personnel, that is not my style and not what I would want to teach these boys.

We have played exclusively M2M which has been effective but has largely been my belief that M2M at young ages is the best way to develop the kids for long term. A couple of weeks ago, I started to install a Triangle and 2 junk defense with this team specifically in mind. However, I did not use it in this game for three reasons 1) This was a home game. All of our home games are on Youtube live and then kept there. Other teams, specially in playoffs, will use it to scout. 2) I wanted to be able to spring this on them in the playoffs and not get them ready for it now. 3) We still need more time to practice it. If we play them again, which if we do would most likely be the Championship game for one of our leagues, we will use it. My two will double their star and the three below keep the rest from scoring and shut down him driving the lanes. He does favor his left but it isn't like he can't use his right. So the plan will be my son to line up against him slightly to the left and them my quickest player to double on his left side. My son can stay up on him to shut down most opportunities for him to shoot (which the kid is dang near automatic with his shooting) and the triangle below should be able to block his advancement if he splits my double. I plan on using it tonight and our upcoming games to get them boys use to it more.

We did a good job at going after their second best player and getting him in foul trouble. Next go around, we need to do that to the star more so than the second fiddle but ideally both. The second best was easy as we fed our big guy and then he would hack him because he was out classed down low. The star is a little harder because he plays good disciplined defense but he does take some chances with swipes. I tried to get my PG to understand how he can use it, they he needs to change speed with a burst right when he comes up on him and slightly change direction towards him and he will pick up some fouls. Likewise, their star is very adept at when he drives and the defense collapses, if he gets caught he will initiate just enough contact to force a foul but not get an offensive foul. I need to help coach my boys on being able to hold their position while coming to help and not giving him that opportunity.

If we get the star in foul trouble, game over. If we can slow him down and force the rest of the team to do something. Game over. It won't be easy but there is a road map to an upset if we get that chance.

I'm laughing at the idea of scouting 5th grade basketball teams, but it doesn't surprise me. We have a manager in my son's baseball league that is at the fields 24/7 and has every 11 year old's GameChanger stats memorized.