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Libertarian Thread (Was: Gary Johnson Thread) (2 Viewers)

I totally negotiated this situation yesterday.  Amnesty International guy on the street approaches me and starts asking to talk to me about Aleppo.  And I say, "Well, of course I'm aware of the good work you people do in Aleppo!"  Then I just let him talk for about 45 seconds until it clicked.  "Syria, I know a bit about Syria!"

 
Not knowing Aleppo seems to fit in nicely with a platform that doesn't think we should be involved in other countries' ####. :positivespin:
Good point.  Just like not knowing who Harriet Tubman is fits in nicely with a platform that appeals almost exclusively to white men who actually think we live in a functioning meritocracy:

A few minutes later, an aide directed him to a room in the convention center that was named for Harriet Tubman. “Who’s Harriet Tubman?” Johnson asked. (After the aide reminded him who Tubman was, Johnson recalled that she will appear on a new twenty-dollar bill.)
link

 
Johnson and Weld did an amazing AMA on Reddit last night.

The fact that Johnson wants to legalize weed, online poker and sports gambling should move the country to vote in droves. And he's willing to pose for a Game Of Thrones Photoshop.
I think that this is a good example of how the media and election coverage drives voting. It's not to the conservative or liberal media's benefit to give Johnson/Weld props for their stance on gambling/weed/prostitution, or get the word out on their stance on other Presidential debate issues. Doing so would give way to free exposure to a larger audience (I assume their campaign is not even in the same galaxy funding wise as compared to Hillary or Trump), with the debates the worst case scenario for the two parties with vulnerable candidates. If they debate and have appeal, people could possible end up liking Johnson/Weld who would've never given them a second thought. This immediately challenges the crown for the Dem/Repub nominees by way of electoral college votes each desperately need anywhere they can be had. It disgusts me that Johnson/Weld won't get an opportunity to be heard during the debates, what the heck kind of democracy is that? A broken system is what this suppression represents, where interests and backroom deals and lobbying rule the roost on both sides of the two-party system.

 
I think that this is a good example of how the media and election coverage drives voting. It's not to the conservative or liberal media's benefit to give Johnson/Weld props for their stance on gambling/weed/prostitution, or get the word out on their stance on other Presidential debate issues. Doing so would give way to free exposure to a larger audience (I assume their campaign is not even in the same galaxy funding wise as compared to Hillary or Trump), with the debates the worst case scenario for the two parties with vulnerable candidates. If they debate and have appeal, people could possible end up liking Johnson/Weld who would've never given them a second thought. This immediately challenges the crown for the Dem/Repub nominees by way of electoral college votes each desperately need anywhere they can be had. It disgusts me that Johnson/Weld won't get an opportunity to be heard during the debates, what the heck kind of democracy is that? A broken system is what this suppression represents, where interests and backroom deals and lobbying rule the roost on both sides of the two-party system.
I think it's a good example of us living in a bubble. Weed is largely legal already. To the extent it's not the change will come largely at the state level (Obama has already rolled back federal enforcement). And nobody else cares about the legality of online poker and sports gambling (also largely legal already).

If the media cares about anything other than accurate reporting, it would be money before partisan politics.  If people wanted to hear from Johnson the media would talk about him. And debate participation rules are set by the Commission on Presidential Debates, not the media. You want to complain about the rules- and for what it's worth I think you have a valid complaint- complain to them.

But what you really need to complain about is our winner take all elections.  People will always gravitate towards a two party system because that's rational behavior in a system like ours. If we had proportional representation that might change, but for now you're fighting an unwinnable battle that asks people to vote against their best interests based on some faith that things might possibly change a few decades from now if everyone keeps it up.

 
This is you in a bubble.  You live in D.C., where it has been decriminalized.  There are plenty of places in this country where people are still being arrested and prosecuted for weed. 
Maybe. Also me living in a bubble as an upper middle class white adult. Nobody's arresting me or my friends on weed charges no matter where we live and smoke.

Anyway, I think the rest of the argument holds. Nobody cares that much about legal sports gambling or online poker, and I don't think people care that much about legalized weed either, or at least it's not a clear winner, election-wise. If it was other candidates would talk about a lot more than they do.

 
Even though he should know Aleppo, I do think it's admirable that he didn't try to just fake his way through the question like many candidates would have. Trump has been asked a bunch of times about stuff where he's clueless, but I've never heard him ask for an explanation.
I don't know man. I think he should have pretended to know what he was talking about like that dumb #### Trump.  :shrug:

 
Even though he should know Aleppo, I do think it's admirable that he didn't try to just fake his way through the question like many candidates would have.
Johnson did another interview later in the day where he definitely tried to fake his way through the Aleppo question. He even regurgitated some of the exact same phrases that he had heard in the original question ("epicenter", "refugee crisis", etc.). It was like a high school kid trying to fake his way through an oral book report.

 
Johnson did another interview later in the day where he definitely tried to fake his way through the Aleppo question. He even regurgitated some of the exact same phrases that he had heard in the original question ("epicenter", "refugee crisis", etc.). It was like a high school kid trying to fake his way through an oral book report.
Yeah, I saw this.  It was with Mark Halperin in the hallway right after the Morning Joe appearance ended.  I agree he started out with some confusing B.S., but he did eventually acknowledge that he "has to get smarter", which seemed to me a concession that he hadn't been familiar with "Aleppo" before. 

 
I don't know what Aleppo is. I also didn't know what the Bush Doctrine was when it tripped Sarah Palin up. ("You mean his world view?")
Are you running for President?

ETA: Plenty to knock Palin for but the Bush Doctrine wasn't one of them since there's no official definition of it - it actually is his world view.

 
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This is you in a bubble.  You live in D.C., where it has been decriminalized.  There are plenty of places in this country where people are still being arrested and prosecuted for weed. 


This. I saw a white dude get sent to prison for possessing weed with intent to deliver less than a week ago. Thinking this isn't a problem is worse than not knowing Aleppo.

 
This. I saw a white dude get sent to prison for possessing weed with intent to deliver less than a week ago. Thinking this isn't a problem is worse than not knowing Aleppo.
Well if you're gonna get all confrontational about it I'd say that drawing broad conclusions based on your own personal experiences with one guy is also worse than not knowing Aleppo.  Not as bad as not knowing Harriet Tubman, though.

Anyway, point taken.  Weed should be legal, and many people (myself included) care about pushing us in that direction.

 
 a platform that appeals almost exclusively to white men who actually think we live in a functioning meritocracy
To be fair, most third parties probably haven't had much exposure to poor people and minorities.  I'd hazard a guess if I walked a couple blocks over into the hood most people there couldn't even name a third presidential candidate.

I wonder what the demographics for the Green party look like.  White women?  

 
Huge gaffe, and disappointing, but it doesn't "disqualify" him from anything.

Presidential candidates, and the media, commit similar or worse gaffes and foreign policy and world geography all the time.

I won't use Trump as an example, because that is too easy. How about the NY Times, which needed two corrections to get things right in the story where it was highlighting Johnson's lack of knowledge about Aleppo? In the first version, it identified Aleppo as Syria's capital (it isn't). In the second version, it referred to Aleppo as ISIS' "capital" (it isn't). 

Just last night Clinton seemed to suggest that there wasn't "an ongoing civil war" in Libya. That is, to me, a more shocking gaffe than the former governor of New Mexico not immediately recognizing the name of the second or third largest city in Syria. Especially since she was pretty heavily involved in starting that civil war.

 
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Huge gaffe, and disappointing, but it doesn't "disqualify" him from anything.
Disqualify him? No.   Trump has a ton of things that are disqualification worthy.  Hillary has been accused of such, though I'm of the opinion its far more smoke (or rather smokeSCREEN) that truth... though sketchiness if part of the resume.

That said, how can I in good conscience vote for a guy for ####### COMMANDER IN CHIEF who doesn't know wtf Aleppo is? I mean, it's not like some nuance was missed, or an honest mix-up or something.  This is really pretty terrible.  It says something about Gary (whom I like, but have always been concerned is a bit of a lightweight in this arena), but moreso about his management of a team and putting together a staff that would have him apprised of at least the major international policy hot spots out there.

Let's not back into a corner of what the traditional parties do and support their person "just cause" - this is a huge, huge gaffe and, for someone who ALREADY voted for Johnson once, has me at least seriously questioning that moving forward.  And, as stated above, Trump is literally unworthy of the position.  If it's not Gary, I'm reluctantly voting Hillary.

And I can't believe that may happen.  

:sigh:

 
Ren Ho3k said:
To be fair, most third parties probably haven't had much exposure to poor people and minorities.  I'd hazard a guess if I walked a couple blocks over into the hood most people there couldn't even name a third presidential candidate.

I wonder what the demographics for the Green party look like.  White women?  
Sure, but I think there's also something to the fact that libertarianism rejects the notion that the government should take an active role in addressing societal ills, and white guys tend not to be the victims of those ills.  They also tend to disproportionately benefit from most libertarian tax proposals/cuts.  They also may be more willing to trust the private sector far more than the people who feel they have been victimized by large companies in a variety of ways (whether that victimization is real or perceived).

 
Yes you want your commander in chief to understand international affairs, but we've also created enough of our own mess here. I don't expect every presidential candidate to be perfect and know it all, so to me this is more a gaffe on his team than the man himself. I'm more worried about policy recommendations that the individual camps are making rather than "stump the candidate" questions that arise sometimes and can derail campaigns.

 
Yes you want your commander in chief to understand international affairs, but we've also created enough of our own mess here. I don't expect every presidential candidate to be perfect and know it all, so to me this is more a gaffe on his team than the man himself. I'm more worried about policy recommendations that the individual camps are making rather than "stump the candidate" questions that arise sometimes and can derail campaigns.
No. Aleppo is NOT a gotcha question. Any candidate for any national office should be familiar with it, regardless of the competency of his staff.

 
Waiters in France, accountants in Serbia, students in Burkina Faso, slumlords in Pakistan are pretty sure Aleppo is the fulcrum for how the Middle East turns. Internationally, this is like a NYC mayoral candidate saying Green-witch Village. And it don't disqualify him only cuz he aint qualified yet.

 
I try to follow the story of the refugees, not specifics of the Syrian civil war.  I had never heard of Aleppo before today.  I also can't name many cities in Somalia, Rwanda, Iraq, or Turkey either.  If it isn't the capital or vacation destination, it doesn't get a lot of press.

Was it a gotcha question?  Why not ask about Syria - is this refugee issue only ocurring in Aleppo?

 
Just last night Clinton seemed to suggest that there wasn't "an ongoing civil war" in Libya. That is, to me, a more shocking gaffe than the former governor of New Mexico not immediately recognizing the name of the second or third largest city in Syria. Especially since she was pretty heavily involved in starting that civil war.

 
Found the quote "Taking that action was the right decision," she argued. "Not taking it and permitting there to be an ongoing civil war in Libya would have been as dangerous and threatening as what we're seeing in Syria."
 
Clearly there is currently a civil war in Libya, but the point she was making is that doing nothing in Libya would have resulted in a worse civil war between Gaddafi and the Libyan people, ala Syria.

 
I got rebuked in the Trump thread when I said that the last thing that Johnson or Stein want is to actually be elected president. I think this shows that he isn't seriously preparing for it.

 
When exactly did Johnson start sounding to the left of Luis Gutierrez on immigration?  Much more troubling to me than the gaffe.  

 
He's a New Mexican. We're the opposite of AZ on the subject - when Zona was gonna ID card every brown-skinned person in the state a couple yrs back, the then-gov invited em all to NM and there werent a peep about it. When i moved there almost 40 yrs ago, the freakin' Castillians objected more to the influx of Mestizos than white people did and if someone in Albuquerque shakes their head these days and says 'ain't like it was 30 yrs ago', someone is as likely to respond, "yeah, all the white people have ruined this town" as anything.

 
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Found the quote "Taking that action was the right decision," she argued. "Not taking it and permitting there to be an ongoing civil war in Libya would have been as dangerous and threatening as what we're seeing in Syria."
 
Clearly there is currently a civil war in Libya, but the point she was making is that doing nothing in Libya would have resulted in a worse civil war between Gaddafi and the Libyan people, ala Syria.
Well, given that she continues to characterize our involvement in Libya as "successful", it gets a bit confusing.

Let's see if I have this straight:

1. If we didn't get involved, Libya could fall into a dangerous civil war.

2. We got involved and were "successful".

3. Libya is now in a state of civil war.

When I read that I am less worried about Johnson's lack of foreign policy acumen and terribly concerned that the Presidential frontrunner appears to either be completely full of #### or still suffering from that concussion that caused her to forget all of the briefings on proper handling of classified information. 

 
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He's a New Mexican. We're the opposite of AZ on the subject - when they were gonna ID card every brown-skinned person in the state a couple yrs back, the then-gov invited em all here and there werent a peep about it. When i moved there almost 40 yrs, the freakin' Castillians objected more to the influx of Mestizos than white people did and if someone in Albuquerque shakes their head these days and says 'ain't like it was 30 yrs ago', someone is as likely to respond, "yeah, all the white people have ruined this town" as anything.
Pretty sure you meant to quote the next post down than the one you did.

 
Oof. Like Johnson, but this just reinforces the idea that he's a flake. Guess I won't be casting a vote for President this year.

 

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