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WR Josh Gordon, KC (13 Viewers)
- Thread starter Matt Waldman
- Start date
donkshow
Footballguy
2 things I want to know (I've accepted the 10 games).
1) Where is this 4th violation coming from? All we've ever heard is 3rd violation, than today 4th comes out? Does it have to do with the DUI? The speeding incident with weed in the car?
2) I don't even know why I'm asking, but is there a released suspension length for a 5th violation?
1) Where is this 4th violation coming from? All we've ever heard is 3rd violation, than today 4th comes out? Does it have to do with the DUI? The speeding incident with weed in the car?
2) I don't even know why I'm asking, but is there a released suspension length for a 5th violation?
I've lost count of the violations, but I doubt there's a secret one. If only three have been publicized, I suspect that whoever's saying four is just mistaken.
I trust that the NFL and the NFLPA have the count right, in any case.
I would not get my hopes up, however, by thinking: "she said he's got four violations, and the punishment for the fourth is ten games; but in fact he's only got three violations, so he should be suspended for fewer than ten games." Anybody who's wrong about how many violations Gordon has had is probably also wrong about how many violations it takes to get a ten-game suspension.
I trust that the NFL and the NFLPA have the count right, in any case.
I would not get my hopes up, however, by thinking: "she said he's got four violations, and the punishment for the fourth is ten games; but in fact he's only got three violations, so he should be suspended for fewer than ten games." Anybody who's wrong about how many violations Gordon has had is probably also wrong about how many violations it takes to get a ten-game suspension.
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Right but my understanding is that 10 months is for 4 incidents under the new rules, and he only has 3 incidents even if we assume, for now, that the old rules applied to his last positive test.So why is the penalty for 4 incidents being applied to him?
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Does your understanding that ten games is for four violations come from the same place as your understanding that he's having the four-violation penalty applied to him?
I suspect that if one piece of that puzzle is wrong, they probably both are. If Gordon has only three violations, I think it's likely that he's having the three-game penalty applied to him, and that ten games is for three violations.
I'm just guessing, though. You're right that it's odd that the "four violations" thing is being thrown around without further explanation (or retraction).
More source news
According to the Cleveland Plain Dealer, Josh Gordon "has been notified" his suspension will be reduced from 16 to 10 games, "pending final approval" of the NFL's new drug policy.
Profootballtalk.com has now joined the Plain Dealer and ESPN's Adam Schefter in reporting Gordon's suspension will indeed be ten games, reduced from 16. The new substance abuse policy reduced the ban. PFT's Mike Florio reports Gordon will be subject to another two-game suspension stemming from his offseason DUI arrest, but Florio considers it "unlikely" that the additional ban will be enforced during the 2014 season. So Gordon's projected return date this year is November 23 against the Falcons. That's Week 12.
According to the Cleveland Plain Dealer, Josh Gordon "has been notified" his suspension will be reduced from 16 to 10 games, "pending final approval" of the NFL's new drug policy.
Profootballtalk.com has now joined the Plain Dealer and ESPN's Adam Schefter in reporting Gordon's suspension will indeed be ten games, reduced from 16. The new substance abuse policy reduced the ban. PFT's Mike Florio reports Gordon will be subject to another two-game suspension stemming from his offseason DUI arrest, but Florio considers it "unlikely" that the additional ban will be enforced during the 2014 season. So Gordon's projected return date this year is November 23 against the Falcons. That's Week 12.
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Franknbeans
Footballguy
I Love Your Fantasy Team
Footballguy
Not gonna be greedy. I'm just happy to have Gordon for 6 weeks including playoffs. Thought he was toast.
Pretty much. The simplest explanation is that "four violations" was a misstatement
I've heard that the 4 are this: 1. When he entered the league, already placed in stage 1, 2. The codeine, 3. The marijuana violation, 4. The DUI.
I think it's bs that he was put into stage one when he got into the league.
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
He'll feel like a first rounder when that time come. But I must admit if he doesn't perform, I'll be shattered. The kind of despair like when you carry your newborn son out of the hospital and raised him into a young man with a scholarship to Princeton only for him to be on a high jacked plane texting you a final message "I'm sorry pop, I love you"
Donny Loved Bowling
Footballguy
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GregR
Footballguy
Pure speculation.... Another possible explanation for reports of a stage 4 thing is that multiple failed college tests are handled differently in the new policy.
In the old policy, Gordon's 3 failed college tests landed him in Stage 1. The codeine was then Stage 2 and the marijuana Stage 3.
It could be in the new policy that, say, 1 failed college test gets you Stage 1, while 2 or more failed college tests gets you Stage 2. In which case the codeine would be Stage 3 and the marijuana Stage 4.
That would be consistent with the other explanation that they are not changing test results from before the league year, but are just applying whatever tests were failed to the new policy to see what level the person is at now.
In the old policy, Gordon's 3 failed college tests landed him in Stage 1. The codeine was then Stage 2 and the marijuana Stage 3.
It could be in the new policy that, say, 1 failed college test gets you Stage 1, while 2 or more failed college tests gets you Stage 2. In which case the codeine would be Stage 3 and the marijuana Stage 4.
That would be consistent with the other explanation that they are not changing test results from before the league year, but are just applying whatever tests were failed to the new policy to see what level the person is at now.
I'm not suggesting it would have, but what I am saying is that the people who took a chance on Gordon will have an elite talent who would have been taken in the first round for a throw away choice that would have been used on a marginal player...The owners who drafted Gordon did a great job + will have a huge advantage come playoff time.
GregR
Footballguy
Reporting has been atrocious so it's hard to take anything as gospel.
But from what we've heard, tests done before the start of the new league year in March 2014 would continue to be judged as pass or fail based on the previous policy that was in effect at the time. So Gordon's fail is still a fail. Tests done in the 2014 league year would be judged by the new levels.
Then whatever number of failed tests result after that, are applied to the new policy's stages to see where someone is at. Any unserved suspensions under the old policy that would change get modified.
So Gordon's failed tests were all before March 2014. So none of his tests are going to switch from failed to pass. All that changes is what stage that number of failed tests might land him in, and what the punishment is for that stage now.
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Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Yeah plus Orlando Scandrick...dschuler said:
I Am the Stig
Footballguy
The problem is, his last violation isn't a violation. It is hard to apply new punishment retroactively without consideration of if the new punishment should even be applied because one of the offenses isn't an offense.
Everyone including the reporters are taking their eye off the prize. Once you apply new punishment standards to past crimes you are acting retroactively.
The next step in Gordon's court is to apply the ability to reconsider whether his last offense should be reviewed.
Likely, there will be wording to allow him to appeal his last violation and plead it down.
It is not over. I say he ends up with 6-8 when all is said and done.
Got it, ok makes more sense. So if he had just waited longer to get that contact high he claims, he'd be off the hook. lol, life is funny sometimes.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Isn't Gordo looking at free agency at the end of the year as well? Would be a perfect time to put on a display.
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
This is from the 7/9/13 RW & CPD:
http://www.rotoworld...282/josh-gordon
http://www.cleveland...sh_gordo_1.html
I don't have the knowledge on this stuff that others here have. Does Stage 3 mean there were 3 violations by that point?
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Apple Jack
Footballguy
He entered the league in stage two due to his positives in college.
GregR
Footballguy
Gordon had 3 failed tests in college that put him in Stage 1 automatically. If I read the drug policy right, you can actually go from Stage 1 to Stage 2 just based on a doctor's diagnosis, without having an additional failed test. In Gordon's case though he had a failed test while (edit to add: I believe) in Stage 1, that he said was due to codeine in cough syrup, which would have put him in Stage 2. And he got a suspension consistent with being in Stage 2. The current marijuana then would put him in Stage 3 where the penalty is a minimum of a year suspension, consistent with what he got.
You can read the text of the drug policy that is being replaced here if you want. We don't know details of the stages for the new policy they are coming out with.
Edit to add: Apple Jack might be right about him having been in Stage 2 already. I'm not positive, but in any event he's definitely had enough violations to be in Stage 3, and the penalties were consistent along the way with the policy.
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pghrob
Hail to the Chief
An owner in my 12 team redraft league who DID draft Gordon at 12.03 actually dropped him last night and paid $50 for Allen Hurns. Our draft was held after the arbitrator ruling upheld the 16 game suspension.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Arguably he's kind of like Harvin last year, maybe with more upside and without the injury risk. And Gordon will have zero competition for targets from any real WR1 on the Browns, except maybe Hawkins who may be a decent WR3 this year. But Gordon does carry the same risk re: rust plus the additional risk re: what he does on his time off. Most likely by Game 11 the Browns won't be as good of an offense as SEA either. Harvin got kicked around a little bit between FF rosters last year. Harvin didn't pan out but that was because of his injury situation.
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Wilbur Wood
Footballguy
You really can't be serious if you expect Gordon to be productive in week 11 or 12. He will not hit the ground running and is likely to be borderline starter production for a few weeks. More likely a wasted season with a big play or two, but no monster games
I Am the Stig
Footballguy
Why not? I explained why. Simply snarking "why" makes you as clever as any 5 year old.
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Apple Jack
Footballguy
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GregR
Footballguy
USA Today got their hands on the terms sheet the players voted on. So this isn't an actual agreement between the players and league... this is what the players told their union leadership they had the greenlight to work out final wording for. If the league doesn't agree to something, doesn't mean it'll make it in. http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2014/09/13/nfl-new-drug-policy-three-things/15571205/
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Just have to love the logical consistency here: 2 games, 4 games - then 10 games, not 8 games - then 16 games.
No wonder people thought it would be 8.
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GregR
Footballguy
This could end up being important down the road:
As I understand it from past articles, basically the NFLPA was arguing that NFL players may have more natural HGH in their bodies than other humans. Other testing agencies reject that notion. The population study was going to establish whether this was the case, and could have resulted in a higher baseline if so... but the trade off was that if the league agreed to the population study then the players would have to agree they could not appeal the science behind the test in their appeals. So basically if that isn't going into the new policy, then future appeals could be longer and more drawn out as an arbitrator has to deal with issues of the science behind the test. Also might increase chances of an appeal succeeding if any holes are found in the science.
No, you didn't give a reason as to why this one player would be allowed to plead it down. Other than the fact that you own him and hope this is what happens.
Apple Jack
Footballguy
I need to back up, as I missed this conversation the first 500 times. Disregarding the new policy for the moment, where were the advancements? He's only tested positive in the NFL twice, right? How do you get to a Stage III violation with only two positives? I think we can assume he entered in Stage I under the behavioral clause, based on his college positives and perhaps the falling asleep in the Taco Bell drive-thru episode. The first NFL positive (codeine) advanced him to Stage II. As I read the old policy, it takes TWO positives while in Stage II to be moved into Stage III. So why wouldn't he still be in Stage II after the second positive (weed) with one more positive between him and Stage III? And after that advancement he would still require yet another positive for a violation of Stage III. Even throwing in a doctor advancing him somewhere along the way, which is a second assumption, he's still not at a violation of Stage III. I don't see how there isn't at least one more positive that we don't know about, if not more.
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GregR
Footballguy
The NFL doesn't announce what stage people are in so it's left to us to guess based on reports and the punishments handed out.
Like I mentioned earlier, a player can enter Stage 1 for behavior and be advanced to Stage 2 based on the diagnosis of dependency. In fact if he's not advanced within 90 days he's supposed to be dropped out of Stage 1 in most (but not all) cases. You're right about it taking 2 tests to go from Stage 2 to Stage 3, I missed that earlier. So I would imagine the codeine was the first failed test at Stage 2, and then the marijuana failure immediately moved him to Stage 3 where he got the full year.
How he got to Stage 2 we can only guess at. With 3 failed tests in college it wouldn't be hard for me to imagine his diagnosis got him into Stage 2. But the falling asleep in the drive through thing could have been part of it too.
gianmarco
Footballguy
You mean how he came in last year after being suspended and his first game of the year he put up 10/146/1? We differ in our definition of "borderline".
Apple Jack
Footballguy
As I interpret it, a second Stage II violation is still just 6 games and an advancement to Stage III. You don't get the year until a violation after being moved into Stage III.
If he has only tested positive twice, it sounds like this "Medical Director" has taken him to the woodshed a few times.
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