KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Pretty sure nobody said that, either.So we already know Ramsay is a bad guy. So now they shouldn't show him doing evil things any more? How stupid is that logic?
Pretty sure nobody said that, either.So we already know Ramsay is a bad guy. So now they shouldn't show him doing evil things any more? How stupid is that logic?
Which is strange because the same director (Jeremy Podeswa) and writer (Bryan Cogman) were behind the scenes for both episodes 5 and 6.Very good posting.The timing is important for me because I don't think it changed the way the audience sees the characters or their relationships to one another at all. If Sansa and/or Theon plotted to murder Ramsay 2-3 episodes down the road it's not like we'd be confused about their motivation or conflicted as to how we feel about it. The other thing I thought about was maybe she gets pregnant, but everyone assumes a married couple would screw on their wedding night anyway- remember how they had to go out of their way to explain to us why Tyrion wasn't gonna consummate the marriage to Sansa.it doesn't have to happen next week- is the timing important to you?- but I still believe that the scene will lead to further developments before the end of the season.Now that is ridiculous.Mary Sue, wait!Link?
Not because I don't believe you. Because I want to laugh at them.
I didn't like it because I thought it was a gratuitous scene (unless something happens during/immediately after it next week, which seems unlikely since they never do that sort of cliffhanger). I thought it was bad TV, a dumb, unpleasant scene in a bad episode of a normally fantastic TV show.
But to drop the show because they "chose to use rape as a plot device?" That makes no sense. They've used rape and other horrible acts as plot devices many many times, as have countless other TV shows and other works of fiction.
The thing I disliked about it maybe more than it being gratuitous is that the scene the previous week at the dinner table was so well done. They'd just done this great, understated scene with those three characters that painted this great picture about their relationship and what was going on at Winterfell and then they followed up this week by taking the picture off the wall and clobbering you over the head with it.
Don't read the Forbes article if you don't want to learn about something that happens in those that must not be named that hasn't been on the show yet.speaking of .... did we ever get to the bottom of the Forbes article spoiler-gate?
Well, if its inevitable, you should just lie back and enjoy it.Well, thread ruined.
given his history....I honestly expected worse.....a lot worseI can't believe people got all worked up about that scene. There was no actual violence even shown.
I agree with Tobias. The rape/not rape because it was the wedding night didn't bother me at all. I knew it was going to happen. The thing that bothered me was that I think it was supposed to be a pivotal moment, i.e. a red wedding moment. Maybe Reek kills Ramsay because of this, but honestly they could have done that without this scene. I am just disappointed in this season a bit and I believe that this was supposed to be a huge moment because it was a "rape" scene. I want huge moments to be huge moments due to the impact of what happened. Reek killing Ramsay (if that happens) doesn't need that.This is very fair. And I agree. The dinner scene was great.The thing I disliked about it maybe more than it being gratuitous is that the scene the previous week at the dinner table was so well done. They'd just done this great, understated scene with those three characters that painted this great picture about their relationship and what was going on at Winterfell and then they followed up this week by taking the picture off the wall and clobbering you over the head with it.
If you don't like spoilers I wouldn't go near it. There is a pretty huge one.speaking of .... did we ever get to the bottom of the Forbes article spoiler-gate?
Why is it silly to say that seeing a rape scene makes you uncomfortable? You may be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean it's silly for other people to be uncomfortable with it.Again, it is just absolutely silly to complain this. Absolutely freaking silly.
Why is it silly to say that seeing a rape scene makes you uncomfortable? You may be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean it's silly for other people to be uncomfortable with it.Again, it is just absolutely silly to complain this. Absolutely freaking silly.
Because its fiction, and in no way was it glorifying the act.Why is it silly to say that seeing a rape scene makes you uncomfortable? You may be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean it's silly for other people to be uncomfortable with it.Again, it is just absolutely silly to complain this. Absolutely freaking silly.
Wow white knight detected. You realize sansa is not going to have sex with you for being outraged about a fictional rape right?You make good points, and I know I am coming off as being so upset about this that I am not going to watch anymore, but that is not the case. I am just saying that I get why people are upset and I thing they good reason to be.I understand this. I really do. I just still don't agree.The main starting point for almost all of the hate for this scene is that "Sansa has suffered enough." So to me, that tells me that everyone was ok with what she has gone through previously. Psychological torture and some physical torture at the hands of Joffrey. Humiliation of the worst kind after that. Being used as a pawn by Littlefinger. All of that was ok somehow simpy because this now is worse. In fact, it was ok before hand because it was hoped that she would grow from it somehow. Now all of the sudden, what? She can't grow from this? A woman in a world where woman are raped and treated as less then second class citizens was raped in a situation that she herself had total control over and allowed to happen (within the context of the show, I'm not going down the line of real world rape. No woman deserves it for any reason ever so let's not go there).Good question, and I think that they could have handled it differently, but as you and others have said - this is HBO and that is not what they do.Karma
I agree with your take pretty much 100%. Question I was asking myself and wondering how you felt. Could they have shot the scene differently and more implied that she was raped and Theon was made to watch and been ok here with the outrage from many watchers? Maybe brought her into the room, made Theon enter as well and closed the door and just gotten some audio of a ripped dress and some tears from Sansa or something? I'm trying to figure out how they could have made the point in a softer way. I guess then the show wouldn't be GoT since that's what they are so good at.
I'll say this, it's nice to have someone to hate again as much as I hated Joffrey. Bolton was surely detestable but he was torturing a character that I wasn't too sympathetic about so it was a weird place to be.
First, I don't think it had to be rape to begin with. They could have had another 'thing' happen that snaps Reek out of his funk. Sansa has more than enough ammo to hate the Boltons and take revenge, so this is basically still about Theon. I think Ramsey punishing Sansa for something Reek did and telling him that he is going to turn her into a female Reek would be just as twisted, snap Reek, and show us something different while staying in character for everybody.
If they are sitting around brainstorming and it just HAS to be rape that is done to her, I think yes - it could have been written different ways. Like you said, there could have been a cut after Reek enters, and we hear something going on. There could be a conversation the next morning - maybe Sansa yells at Reek for not stepping in, telling us that he was there. More ####ed up - maybe after Ramsey comes into the room we pan over and see Reek in a portable cage in the corner of the room or some ####.
I just think that rape in particular is a very hot button topic for people, so if you are going to depict in on screen you should be very careful about how you do it or make sure there is a purpose to showing it. This show doesn't seem to agree with that, and it has caused some backlash for them.
So, what the people complaining about now are saying is that - we are ok with killing babies (live babies, not an abortion type thing) we are ok with people getting their throat cut; we kinda like the bad guy good guy bad guy thing from The Hound when he beat that poor dad for all his money because he had some good one liners during his time on screen; a really huge guy crushed a guys skull, women are tortured, raped, murdered and worse for simply being women; a pregnant mother has her baby eviscerated in her womb during a party, people are beheaded for ridiculous nonsense, children are poisoning other children and so on and so on and so on.....
.... but this is going too far? Really? What about Walter Frey's innocent daughter/wife whom Catherine killed just because she was standing there? Where is the outrage for her death? Everyone pretty much loves Jamie now for the most part but he threw a kid off a balcony. Panty wad people are getting all worked up about this particular horrible and by doing so are basically saying that everything else is ok, entertaining, understandable, part of the story, artistic license, used a plot to set up a better revenge type thing. There are websites out there posting now that they will no longer promote or follow the show because this is just too far.
It's ridiculous. It's a fricken TV show that has magic dwarfs, dragons, and ghost monsters who are birthed like babies and stone men that Marvel would be pround of. Give me a break. People love outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose. I can understand hating the scene for the changes it makes to the underlying story from the books. That I get. The book people hating it because they liked the book version of the story better - I get that. I think they are nuts for different reasons, but I get that. The real world outrage? Really? C'mon.
For me personally, Robb's wife getting stabbed in the stomach was worse. Maybe because it was shown, it was more of a surprise, I don't know. But with rape on campus and in general being a hot button topic and an extremely sensitive one, HBO doesn't seem to give to craps about how they handle it, or for what reason they do it.
I don't want to make it seem like I am out with a sign at HBO's studios or anything, I am just having a discussion on a message board. I have friends who have been raped, so maybe it is hitting home a bit and I get more upset than I should when people talk about even a fictional character being in that position or that it is just showing a "loss of innocence" or that it was just expected on the wedding night.
It is a fictional universe, BUT they are choosing how they are showing some real life situations that hit home for people in a very visceral way.
I'm sure there's a rerun of 7th Heaven you could watch insteadWhy is it silly to say that seeing a rape scene makes you uncomfortable? You may be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean it's silly for other people to be uncomfortable with it.Again, it is just absolutely silly to complain this. Absolutely freaking silly.
Why would I want to watch that?I'm sure there's a rerun of 7th Heaven you could watch insteadWhy is it silly to say that seeing a rape scene makes you uncomfortable? You may be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean it's silly for other people to be uncomfortable with it.Again, it is just absolutely silly to complain this. Absolutely freaking silly.
But it's the natural progression of the story in regards to the characters at play. To criticize it is to criticize the character of Ramsey and the idea of marrying Sansa and Ramsey. Once that happened, for it to go down any other way would ring false. Ramsey's been established as a lusty fellow. They've established a main motif on the behalf of the Boltons is to legitimize their claim in the North by having Ramsey and Sansa produce heirs (a point brought up in regards to the ruling of the North by Tywin in S3). I'd almost argue that any other act by Ramsey to exert control and play mind games (flay Sansa's finger, beat Reek in front of her, etc. etc.) wouldn't jibe with the motives of the characters in that particular situation.I am arguing, as are others that: 1. We know what Ramsey is, so we didn't need that. 2. they didn't need to use that specifically as a plot device yet again to achieve that end result.I think it did have a purpose in a couple of regards. 1) it reinforced what Ramsey is (I can agree that people could see that as redundant as we all know what he is) and 2) I imagine it serves, if not as the final straw on the back of the camel, at least a wake up call to Theon/Sansa that things aren't going to get any better and they should take things into their own hands....A cynic might even think that Sansa's a willing participant and she's playing a long con (in itself a bit weird as I'd assume that people would see her allowing herself to be raped to further herself in the game(if one can do that?) as the ultimate female empowerment moment)Sure, but I think after 5 seasons a lot of people are tiring of it if it doesn't have a purpose other than they can show it because they are HBO and that is what they do.As they have in the entire series.You make good points, and I know I am coming off as being so upset about this that I am not going to watch anymore, but that is not the case. I am just saying that I get why people are upset and I thing they good reason to be.I understand this. I really do. I just still don't agree.Good question, and I think that they could have handled it differently, but as you and others have said - this is HBO and that is not what they do.Karma
I agree with your take pretty much 100%. Question I was asking myself and wondering how you felt. Could they have shot the scene differently and more implied that she was raped and Theon was made to watch and been ok here with the outrage from many watchers? Maybe brought her into the room, made Theon enter as well and closed the door and just gotten some audio of a ripped dress and some tears from Sansa or something? I'm trying to figure out how they could have made the point in a softer way. I guess then the show wouldn't be GoT since that's what they are so good at.
I'll say this, it's nice to have someone to hate again as much as I hated Joffrey. Bolton was surely detestable but he was torturing a character that I wasn't too sympathetic about so it was a weird place to be.
First, I don't think it had to be rape to begin with. They could have had another 'thing' happen that snaps Reek out of his funk. Sansa has more than enough ammo to hate the Boltons and take revenge, so this is basically still about Theon. I think Ramsey punishing Sansa for something Reek did and telling him that he is going to turn her into a female Reek would be just as twisted, snap Reek, and show us something different while staying in character for everybody.
If they are sitting around brainstorming and it just HAS to be rape that is done to her, I think yes - it could have been written different ways. Like you said, there could have been a cut after Reek enters, and we hear something going on. There could be a conversation the next morning - maybe Sansa yells at Reek for not stepping in, telling us that he was there. More ####ed up - maybe after Ramsey comes into the room we pan over and see Reek in a portable cage in the corner of the room or some ####.
I just think that rape in particular is a very hot button topic for people, so if you are going to depict in on screen you should be very careful about how you do it or make sure there is a purpose to showing it. This show doesn't seem to agree with that, and it has caused some backlash for them.
The main starting point for almost all of the hate for this scene is that "Sansa has suffered enough." So to me, that tells me that everyone was ok with what she has gone through previously. Psychological torture and some physical torture at the hands of Joffrey. Humiliation of the worst kind after that. Being used as a pawn by Littlefinger. All of that was ok somehow simpy because this now is worse. In fact, it was ok before hand because it was hoped that she would grow from it somehow. Now all of the sudden, what? She can't grow from this? A woman in a world where woman are raped and treated as less then second class citizens was raped in a situation that she herself had total control over and allowed to happen (within the context of the show, I'm not going down the line of real world rape. No woman deserves it for any reason ever so let's not go there).
So, what the people complaining about now are saying is that - we are ok with killing babies (live babies, not an abortion type thing) we are ok with people getting their throat cut; we kinda like the bad guy good guy bad guy thing from The Hound when he beat that poor dad for all his money because he had some good one liners during his time on screen; a really huge guy crushed a guys skull, women are tortured, raped, murdered and worse for simply being women; a pregnant mother has her baby eviscerated in her womb during a party, people are beheaded for ridiculous nonsense, children are poisoning other children and so on and so on and so on.....
.... but this is going too far? Really? What about Walter Frey's innocent daughter/wife whom Catherine killed just because she was standing there? Where is the outrage for her death? Everyone pretty much loves Jamie now for the most part but he threw a kid off a balcony. Panty wad people are getting all worked up about this particular horrible and by doing so are basically saying that everything else is ok, entertaining, understandable, part of the story, artistic license, used a plot to set up a better revenge type thing. There are websites out there posting now that they will no longer promote or follow the show because this is just too far.
It's ridiculous. It's a fricken TV show that has magic dwarfs, dragons, and ghost monsters who are birthed like babies and stone men that Marvel would be pround of. Give me a break. People love outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose. I can understand hating the scene for the changes it makes to the underlying story from the books. That I get. The book people hating it because they liked the book version of the story better - I get that. I think they are nuts for different reasons, but I get that. The real world outrage? Really? C'mon.
For me personally, Robb's wife getting stabbed in the stomach was worse. Maybe because it was shown, it was more of a surprise, I don't know. But with rape on campus and in general being a hot button topic and an extremely sensitive one, HBO doesn't seem to give to craps about how they handle it, or for what reason they do it.
I don't want to make it seem like I am out with a sign at HBO's studios or anything, I am just having a discussion on a message board. I have friends who have been raped, so maybe it is hitting home a bit and I get more upset than I should when people talk about even a fictional character being in that position or that it is just showing a "loss of innocence" or that it was just expected on the wedding night.
It is a fictional universe, BUT they are choosing how they are showing some real life situations that hit home for people in a very visceral way.
Like somebody else said, I am sure a certain bit of this equation is just about across the board people seem to be bored or disappointed with the season in general, so there aren't the normal highs of the show to hide scenes like this that people don't like.
I guess we will see - maybe the end result is to have Sansa knocked up, and this was their way to get there. There still is the choice to have a rape result in that, and not just normal uncomfortable married sex end in a pregnacy and Ramsey pushing Theon over the edge another way.
Frankly, some of the posts in here are creeping me out a bit. Are you guys saying Sunday wasn't rape period, or in this fictional universe?
Comments like: she didn't say no, she kinda put herself in that position, well she started taking her clothes off, something was expected to happen that night, etc seem a bit off. Yes I know we are talking about a work of fiction, just saying I have been surprised by some of the posts and the opinions of the scene.
I think that defining it by our contemporary standards, it's rape.......with some type of strange mindgame/cuckoldry going on. Defining it by societal standards of a Westerosi wedding night....it's not...yet still with the mindgames.Frankly, some of the posts in here are creeping me out a bit. Are you guys saying Sunday wasn't rape period, or in this fictional universe?
Comments like: she didn't say no, she kinda put herself in that position, well she started taking her clothes off, something was expected to happen that night, etc seem a bit off. Yes I know we are talking about a work of fiction, just saying I have been surprised by some of the posts and the opinions of the scene.
I am criticizing both things. I think a lot of Ramsey's act are reaching the level of cartoonish. Not a fan of Sansa in this situation either.But it's the natural progression of the story in regards to the characters at play. To criticize it is to criticize the character of Ramsey and the idea of marrying Sansa and Ramsey. Once that happened, for it to go down any other way would ring false. Ramsey's been established as a lusty fellow. They've established a main motif on the behalf of the Boltons is to legitimize their claim in the North by having Ramsey and Sansa produce heirs (a point brought up in regards to the ruling of the North by Tywin in S3). I'd almost argue that any other act by Ramsey to exert control and play mind games (flay Sansa's finger, beat Reek in front of her, etc. etc.) wouldn't jibe with the motives of the characters in that particular situation.I am arguing, as are others that: 1. We know what Ramsey is, so we didn't need that. 2. they didn't need to use that specifically as a plot device yet again to achieve that end result.I think it did have a purpose in a couple of regards. 1) it reinforced what Ramsey is (I can agree that people could see that as redundant as we all know what he is) and 2) I imagine it serves, if not as the final straw on the back of the camel, at least a wake up call to Theon/Sansa that things aren't going to get any better and they should take things into their own hands....A cynic might even think that Sansa's a willing participant and she's playing a long con (in itself a bit weird as I'd assume that people would see her allowing herself to be raped to further herself in the game(if one can do that?) as the ultimate female empowerment moment)Sure, but I think after 5 seasons a lot of people are tiring of it if it doesn't have a purpose other than they can show it because they are HBO and that is what they do.As they have in the entire series.You make good points, and I know I am coming off as being so upset about this that I am not going to watch anymore, but that is not the case. I am just saying that I get why people are upset and I thing they good reason to be.I understand this. I really do. I just still don't agree.The main starting point for almost all of the hate for this scene is that "Sansa has suffered enough." So to me, that tells me that everyone was ok with what she has gone through previously. Psychological torture and some physical torture at the hands of Joffrey. Humiliation of the worst kind after that. Being used as a pawn by Littlefinger. All of that was ok somehow simpy because this now is worse. In fact, it was ok before hand because it was hoped that she would grow from it somehow. Now all of the sudden, what? She can't grow from this? A woman in a world where woman are raped and treated as less then second class citizens was raped in a situation that she herself had total control over and allowed to happen (within the context of the show, I'm not going down the line of real world rape. No woman deserves it for any reason ever so let's not go there).Good question, and I think that they could have handled it differently, but as you and others have said - this is HBO and that is not what they do.Karma
I agree with your take pretty much 100%. Question I was asking myself and wondering how you felt. Could they have shot the scene differently and more implied that she was raped and Theon was made to watch and been ok here with the outrage from many watchers? Maybe brought her into the room, made Theon enter as well and closed the door and just gotten some audio of a ripped dress and some tears from Sansa or something? I'm trying to figure out how they could have made the point in a softer way. I guess then the show wouldn't be GoT since that's what they are so good at.
I'll say this, it's nice to have someone to hate again as much as I hated Joffrey. Bolton was surely detestable but he was torturing a character that I wasn't too sympathetic about so it was a weird place to be.
First, I don't think it had to be rape to begin with. They could have had another 'thing' happen that snaps Reek out of his funk. Sansa has more than enough ammo to hate the Boltons and take revenge, so this is basically still about Theon. I think Ramsey punishing Sansa for something Reek did and telling him that he is going to turn her into a female Reek would be just as twisted, snap Reek, and show us something different while staying in character for everybody.
If they are sitting around brainstorming and it just HAS to be rape that is done to her, I think yes - it could have been written different ways. Like you said, there could have been a cut after Reek enters, and we hear something going on. There could be a conversation the next morning - maybe Sansa yells at Reek for not stepping in, telling us that he was there. More ####ed up - maybe after Ramsey comes into the room we pan over and see Reek in a portable cage in the corner of the room or some ####.
I just think that rape in particular is a very hot button topic for people, so if you are going to depict in on screen you should be very careful about how you do it or make sure there is a purpose to showing it. This show doesn't seem to agree with that, and it has caused some backlash for them.
So, what the people complaining about now are saying is that - we are ok with killing babies (live babies, not an abortion type thing) we are ok with people getting their throat cut; we kinda like the bad guy good guy bad guy thing from The Hound when he beat that poor dad for all his money because he had some good one liners during his time on screen; a really huge guy crushed a guys skull, women are tortured, raped, murdered and worse for simply being women; a pregnant mother has her baby eviscerated in her womb during a party, people are beheaded for ridiculous nonsense, children are poisoning other children and so on and so on and so on.....
.... but this is going too far? Really? What about Walter Frey's innocent daughter/wife whom Catherine killed just because she was standing there? Where is the outrage for her death? Everyone pretty much loves Jamie now for the most part but he threw a kid off a balcony. Panty wad people are getting all worked up about this particular horrible and by doing so are basically saying that everything else is ok, entertaining, understandable, part of the story, artistic license, used a plot to set up a better revenge type thing. There are websites out there posting now that they will no longer promote or follow the show because this is just too far.
It's ridiculous. It's a fricken TV show that has magic dwarfs, dragons, and ghost monsters who are birthed like babies and stone men that Marvel would be pround of. Give me a break. People love outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose. I can understand hating the scene for the changes it makes to the underlying story from the books. That I get. The book people hating it because they liked the book version of the story better - I get that. I think they are nuts for different reasons, but I get that. The real world outrage? Really? C'mon.
For me personally, Robb's wife getting stabbed in the stomach was worse. Maybe because it was shown, it was more of a surprise, I don't know. But with rape on campus and in general being a hot button topic and an extremely sensitive one, HBO doesn't seem to give to craps about how they handle it, or for what reason they do it.
I don't want to make it seem like I am out with a sign at HBO's studios or anything, I am just having a discussion on a message board. I have friends who have been raped, so maybe it is hitting home a bit and I get more upset than I should when people talk about even a fictional character being in that position or that it is just showing a "loss of innocence" or that it was just expected on the wedding night.
It is a fictional universe, BUT they are choosing how they are showing some real life situations that hit home for people in a very visceral way.
Like somebody else said, I am sure a certain bit of this equation is just about across the board people seem to be bored or disappointed with the season in general, so there aren't the normal highs of the show to hide scenes like this that people don't like.
I guess we will see - maybe the end result is to have Sansa knocked up, and this was their way to get there. There still is the choice to have a rape result in that, and not just normal uncomfortable married sex end in a pregnacy and Ramsey pushing Theon over the edge another way.
:sansa:Well, if its inevitable, you should just lie back and enjoy it.Well, thread ruined.
I think the delivery of the actor playing him lends to cartoonery (if that's even a word). He doesn't quite have that "teenage moodiness and uncertainty of adolescence juxtaposed with unchecked power" delivery that Joffery had. I think the actor playing Ramsey's hamming it up a bit.I am criticizing both things. I think a lot of Ramsey's act are reaching the level of cartoonish. Not a fan of Sansa in this situation either.
We will agree to disagree that it had to come to this. Scenes like the dinner scene are far better and bringing in something like flaying to the situation would maybe bring Roose also into the equation, which at least I would find interesting.
Fair enough, though we have been shown a handful of Westerosi wedding nights, and this is the only one that was like this. So not sure it is fair to say that about the standards for the night.Frankly, some of the posts in here are creeping me out a bit. Are you guys saying Sunday wasn't rape period, or in this fictional universe?
Comments like: she didn't say no, she kinda put herself in that position, well she started taking her clothes off, something was expected to happen that night, etc seem a bit off. Yes I know we are talking about a work of fiction, just saying I have been surprised by some of the posts and the opinions of the scene.I think that defining it by our contemporary standards, it's rape.......with some type of strange mindgame/cuckoldry going on. Defining it by societal standards of a Westerosi wedding night....it's not...yet still with the mindgames.Frankly, some of the posts in here are creeping me out a bit. Are you guys saying Sunday wasn't rape period, or in this fictional universe?
Comments like: she didn't say no, she kinda put herself in that position, well she started taking her clothes off, something was expected to happen that night, etc seem a bit off. Yes I know we are talking about a work of fiction, just saying I have been surprised by some of the posts and the opinions of the scene.
That's what I think. Shame. Good character. Hopefully he goes out in a blaze of glory somehow. They could be setting it up for some kind of trial by combat thing in Dorne I guess where the leader of the Sandsnakes demands it and Jamie tells his daughter to name Bronn as his fighter since Jamie has no left hand. He kills her but dies in the process as well. Could work.Rewatched the episode last night. They definitely played up the fact that Bronn got cut. He's gotta be poisoned right?
Saying it made you uncomfortable is one thing. Complaining about it as being part of rape culture or whatever else IS silly. Of course it made you uncomfortable. Bad things are suppose to make you uncomfortable. If this is the only scene that has made you uncomfortable in this series then you have issues. How many of those scenes did you complain about?Why is it silly to say that seeing a rape scene makes you uncomfortable? You may be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean it's silly for other people to be uncomfortable with it.Again, it is just absolutely silly to complain this. Absolutely freaking silly.
That's what I think. Shame. Good character. Hopefully he goes out in a blaze of glory somehow. They could be setting it up for some kind of trial by combat thing in Dorne I guess where the leader of the Sandsnakes demands it and Jamie tells his daughter to name Bronn as his fighter since Jamie has no left hand. He kills her but dies in the process as well. Could work.Rewatched the episode last night. They definitely played up the fact that Bronn got cut. He's gotta be poisoned right?
They reminded me of when the Three Stooges pretended to be Japanese acrobats to confuse the Nazi spys....so how about those Sand Snakes?
Yea, they sure did.Rewatched the episode last night. They definitely played up the fact that Bronn got cut. He's gotta be poisoned right?
Agreed.Saying it made you uncomfortable is one thing. Complaining about it as being part of rape culture or whatever else IS silly. Of course it made you uncomfortable. Bad things are suppose to make you uncomfortable. If this is the only scene that has made you uncomfortable in this series then you have issues.Why is it silly to say that seeing a rape scene makes you uncomfortable? You may be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean it's silly for other people to be uncomfortable with it.Again, it is just absolutely silly to complain this. Absolutely freaking silly.
Cool. You can tell the bolded to someone who complained about that. Did anyone here do that?Saying it made you uncomfortable is one thing. Complaining about it as being part of rape culture or whatever else IS silly. Of course it made you uncomfortable. Bad things are suppose to make you uncomfortable. If this is the only scene that has made you uncomfortable in this series then you have issues. How many of those scenes did you complain about?Why is it silly to say that seeing a rape scene makes you uncomfortable? You may be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean it's silly for other people to be uncomfortable with it.Again, it is just absolutely silly to complain this. Absolutely freaking silly.
Also, another point on this. How in the world is it gratuitous? You could label it gratuitous if we saw some naked Sansa but we did not. And why is someone complaining now about something being gratuitous? There has been a ton of gratuitous naked bodies and sex on this show- did you silly people complain then? And if you did- why the bleep are you watching the show?!
I disagree with that per Sansa's reaction to Theon when he came to give her away in this past weeks episode. There was no sympathy for him or his predicament. She might have thought Ramsey strange or sadistic at the dinner party for what he did to Theon.....but I'm not sure that she felt sorrow for Theon for what has happened to him. There needs to be:Cool. You can tell the bolded to someone who complained about that. Did anyone here do that?Saying it made you uncomfortable is one thing. Complaining about it as being part of rape culture or whatever else IS silly. Of course it made you uncomfortable. Bad things are suppose to make you uncomfortable. If this is the only scene that has made you uncomfortable in this series then you have issues. How many of those scenes did you complain about?Why is it silly to say that seeing a rape scene makes you uncomfortable? You may be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean it's silly for other people to be uncomfortable with it.Again, it is just absolutely silly to complain this. Absolutely freaking silly.
Also, another point on this. How in the world is it gratuitous? You could label it gratuitous if we saw some naked Sansa but we did not. And why is someone complaining now about something being gratuitous? There has been a ton of gratuitous naked bodies and sex on this show- did you silly people complain then? And if you did- why the bleep are you watching the show?!
As for it being gratuitous- I explained it a couple times already, but here goes. It didn't add to or change our understanding of the characters and how they relate to each other in any way. It was basically a non-subtle version of something that already happened with the same exact characters the previous week at the dinner table with Theon being forced to apologize for "killing" Sansa's siblings. And unless the scene picks up right where it left off- which they never do on this show- then it doesn't really change the narrative in any way, because there was already more than sufficient grounds for either character to eventually lash out at Ramsay before this. If they hadn't shown that scene but they opened next week with Sansa and Theon plotting to murder the Boltons, nobody would have been the slightest bit confused about it. Thus, gratuitous IMO.
And the other gratuitous displays didn't bother me as much because the idea of presenting nudity or sex or even violence for the audience to enjoy independent of any narrative doesn't seem odd to me, but doing that for rape does. They're all different things and I feel differently about enjoying each of them onscreen for their own sake. I assume most other people feel the same way.
Agree. Theon had his own sister there ready to save him and wouldn't turn on Ramsay. He needs a stronger catalyst if he's going to get back to Theon, and that's why I don't understand the gratuitous complaints.I disagree with that per Sansa's reaction to Theon when he came to give her away in this past weeks episode. There was no sympathy for him or his predicament. She might have thought Ramsey strange or sadistic at the dinner party for what he did to Theon.....but I'm not sure that she felt sorrow for Theon for what has happened to him. There needs to be:Cool. You can tell the bolded to someone who complained about that. Did anyone here do that?Saying it made you uncomfortable is one thing. Complaining about it as being part of rape culture or whatever else IS silly. Of course it made you uncomfortable. Bad things are suppose to make you uncomfortable. If this is the only scene that has made you uncomfortable in this series then you have issues. How many of those scenes did you complain about?Why is it silly to say that seeing a rape scene makes you uncomfortable? You may be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean it's silly for other people to be uncomfortable with it.Again, it is just absolutely silly to complain this. Absolutely freaking silly.
Also, another point on this. How in the world is it gratuitous? You could label it gratuitous if we saw some naked Sansa but we did not. And why is someone complaining now about something being gratuitous? There has been a ton of gratuitous naked bodies and sex on this show- did you silly people complain then? And if you did- why the bleep are you watching the show?!
As for it being gratuitous- I explained it a couple times already, but here goes. It didn't add to or change our understanding of the characters and how they relate to each other in any way. It was basically a non-subtle version of something that already happened with the same exact characters the previous week at the dinner table with Theon being forced to apologize for "killing" Sansa's siblings. And unless the scene picks up right where it left off- which they never do on this show- then it doesn't really change the narrative in any way, because there was already more than sufficient grounds for either character to eventually lash out at Ramsay before this. If they hadn't shown that scene but they opened next week with Sansa and Theon plotting to murder the Boltons, nobody would have been the slightest bit confused about it. Thus, gratuitous IMO.
And the other gratuitous displays didn't bother me as much because the idea of presenting nudity or sex or even violence for the audience to enjoy independent of any narrative doesn't seem odd to me, but doing that for rape does. They're all different things and I feel differently about enjoying each of them onscreen for their own sake. I assume most other people feel the same way.
A) individual debasement of Sansa by Ramsey, shared debasement between Theon and Sansa or the realization by Theon that
Sansa's going to be turned into a Reekess,
B) A rekindling of Theon's loyalty to the Starks (something that he's hinted at in the past and IIRC at the actual wedding)
C) an acknowledgement by him that he didn't kill Bran and Rickon before any plots would be hatched to kill the Boltons....
The wedding scene and wedding night more or less fulfilled two of those.
I like this. Helps me reconcile it a bit.I disagree with that per Sansa's reaction to Theon when he came to give her away in this past weeks episode. There was no sympathy for him or his predicament. She might have thought Ramsey strange or sadistic at the dinner party for what he did to Theon.....but I'm not sure that she felt sorrow for Theon for what has happened to him. There needs to be:Cool. You can tell the bolded to someone who complained about that. Did anyone here do that?Saying it made you uncomfortable is one thing. Complaining about it as being part of rape culture or whatever else IS silly. Of course it made you uncomfortable. Bad things are suppose to make you uncomfortable. If this is the only scene that has made you uncomfortable in this series then you have issues. How many of those scenes did you complain about?Why is it silly to say that seeing a rape scene makes you uncomfortable? You may be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean it's silly for other people to be uncomfortable with it.Again, it is just absolutely silly to complain this. Absolutely freaking silly.
Also, another point on this. How in the world is it gratuitous? You could label it gratuitous if we saw some naked Sansa but we did not. And why is someone complaining now about something being gratuitous? There has been a ton of gratuitous naked bodies and sex on this show- did you silly people complain then? And if you did- why the bleep are you watching the show?!
As for it being gratuitous- I explained it a couple times already, but here goes. It didn't add to or change our understanding of the characters and how they relate to each other in any way. It was basically a non-subtle version of something that already happened with the same exact characters the previous week at the dinner table with Theon being forced to apologize for "killing" Sansa's siblings. And unless the scene picks up right where it left off- which they never do on this show- then it doesn't really change the narrative in any way, because there was already more than sufficient grounds for either character to eventually lash out at Ramsay before this. If they hadn't shown that scene but they opened next week with Sansa and Theon plotting to murder the Boltons, nobody would have been the slightest bit confused about it. Thus, gratuitous IMO.
And the other gratuitous displays didn't bother me as much because the idea of presenting nudity or sex or even violence for the audience to enjoy independent of any narrative doesn't seem odd to me, but doing that for rape does. They're all different things and I feel differently about enjoying each of them onscreen for their own sake. I assume most other people feel the same way.
A) individual debasement of Sansa by Ramsey, shared debasement between Theon and Sansa or the realization by Theon that
Sansa's going to be turned into a Reekess,
B) A rekindling of Theon's loyalty to the Starks (something that he's hinted at in the past and IIRC at the actual wedding)
C) an acknowledgement by him that he didn't kill Bran and Rickon before any plots would be hatched to kill the Boltons....
The wedding scene and wedding night more or less fulfilled two of those.
Is someone paying you to build these or were you just bored and you had a lot of straw lying around?I'm finding it very hard to take anyone who is/was really disturbed about the Sansa/Ramsay thing seriously.
If something like this is "over the line" then you should have stopped watching a long time ago. Did you have the same reaction when Theon had the little kids killed (the ones near Winterfell) or when Theon had his junk cut off or when any of the other numerous horrific things happened?
All were disturbing/unsettling. Why is the Sansa scene so much more noteworthy and worthy of outrage?Is someone paying you to build these or were you just bored and you had a lot of straw lying around?I'm finding it very hard to take anyone who is/was really disturbed about the Sansa/Ramsay thing seriously.
If something like this is "over the line" then you should have stopped watching a long time ago. Did you have the same reaction when Theon had the little kids killed (the ones near Winterfell) or when Theon had his junk cut off or when any of the other numerous horrific things happened?
Every criticism I've seen of the scene here or elsewhere has focused on it being either gratuitous (the other scenes all developed the characters or furthered the plot in a way this one didn't) or that the cumulative effect of the rapes and whatnot reaching the point where they're annoyed with or frustrated by the show. This idea that other scenes were more graphic or disturbing or unsettling than this one is a straw man argument because nobody's arguing otherwise.All were disturbing/unsettling. Why is the Sansa scene so much more noteworthy and worthy of outrage?Is someone paying you to build these or were you just bored and you had a lot of straw lying around?I'm finding it very hard to take anyone who is/was really disturbed about the Sansa/Ramsay thing seriously.
If something like this is "over the line" then you should have stopped watching a long time ago. Did you have the same reaction when Theon had the little kids killed (the ones near Winterfell) or when Theon had his junk cut off or when any of the other numerous horrific things happened?
I think this will have furthered the plot in ways that other scenes, particularly the dinner scene, have not done.Every criticism I've seen of the scene here or elsewhere has focused on it being either gratuitous (the other scenes all developed the characters or furthered the plot in a way this one didn't) or that the cumulative effect of the rapes and whatnot reaching the point where they're annoyed with or frustrated by the show. This idea that other scenes were more graphic or disturbing or unsettling than this one is a straw man argument because nobody's arguing otherwise.All were disturbing/unsettling. Why is the Sansa scene so much more noteworthy and worthy of outrage?Is someone paying you to build these or were you just bored and you had a lot of straw lying around?I'm finding it very hard to take anyone who is/was really disturbed about the Sansa/Ramsay thing seriously.
If something like this is "over the line" then you should have stopped watching a long time ago. Did you have the same reaction when Theon had the little kids killed (the ones near Winterfell) or when Theon had his junk cut off or when any of the other numerous horrific things happened?
Yeah, Thunderlips gave a solid breakdown of that possibility a few posts up. Changed my take on the scene a bit. That's why I read these threadsI think this will have furthered the plot in ways that other scenes, particularly the dinner scene, have not done.Every criticism I've seen of the scene here or elsewhere has focused on it being either gratuitous (the other scenes all developed the characters or furthered the plot in a way this one didn't) or that the cumulative effect of the rapes and whatnot reaching the point where they're annoyed with or frustrated by the show. This idea that other scenes were more graphic or disturbing or unsettling than this one is a straw man argument because nobody's arguing otherwise.All were disturbing/unsettling. Why is the Sansa scene so much more noteworthy and worthy of outrage?Is someone paying you to build these or were you just bored and you had a lot of straw lying around?I'm finding it very hard to take anyone who is/was really disturbed about the Sansa/Ramsay thing seriously.
If something like this is "over the line" then you should have stopped watching a long time ago. Did you have the same reaction when Theon had the little kids killed (the ones near Winterfell) or when Theon had his junk cut off or when any of the other numerous horrific things happened?
Yes. Pretty handsomely too.Is someone paying you to build these or were you just bored and you had a lot of straw lying around?I'm finding it very hard to take anyone who is/was really disturbed about the Sansa/Ramsay thing seriously.
If something like this is "over the line" then you should have stopped watching a long time ago. Did you have the same reaction when Theon had the little kids killed (the ones near Winterfell) or when Theon had his junk cut off or when any of the other numerous horrific things happened?
C is definitely the main point here. To this point, I think that Sansa doesn't need any further inducement to want to kill Ramsey. Theon is totally messed up and can break at any minute, but its difficult to believe that Sansa would deal with the man who she thinks burned/killed her two brothers and put them on display.I disagree with that per Sansa's reaction to Theon when he came to give her away in this past weeks episode. There was no sympathy for him or his predicament. She might have thought Ramsey strange or sadistic at the dinner party for what he did to Theon.....but I'm not sure that she felt sorrow for Theon for what has happened to him. There needs to be:Cool. You can tell the bolded to someone who complained about that. Did anyone here do that?Saying it made you uncomfortable is one thing. Complaining about it as being part of rape culture or whatever else IS silly. Of course it made you uncomfortable. Bad things are suppose to make you uncomfortable. If this is the only scene that has made you uncomfortable in this series then you have issues. How many of those scenes did you complain about?Why is it silly to say that seeing a rape scene makes you uncomfortable? You may be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean it's silly for other people to be uncomfortable with it.Again, it is just absolutely silly to complain this. Absolutely freaking silly.
Also, another point on this. How in the world is it gratuitous? You could label it gratuitous if we saw some naked Sansa but we did not. And why is someone complaining now about something being gratuitous? There has been a ton of gratuitous naked bodies and sex on this show- did you silly people complain then? And if you did- why the bleep are you watching the show?!
As for it being gratuitous- I explained it a couple times already, but here goes. It didn't add to or change our understanding of the characters and how they relate to each other in any way. It was basically a non-subtle version of something that already happened with the same exact characters the previous week at the dinner table with Theon being forced to apologize for "killing" Sansa's siblings. And unless the scene picks up right where it left off- which they never do on this show- then it doesn't really change the narrative in any way, because there was already more than sufficient grounds for either character to eventually lash out at Ramsay before this. If they hadn't shown that scene but they opened next week with Sansa and Theon plotting to murder the Boltons, nobody would have been the slightest bit confused about it. Thus, gratuitous IMO.
And the other gratuitous displays didn't bother me as much because the idea of presenting nudity or sex or even violence for the audience to enjoy independent of any narrative doesn't seem odd to me, but doing that for rape does. They're all different things and I feel differently about enjoying each of them onscreen for their own sake. I assume most other people feel the same way.
A) individual debasement of Sansa by Ramsey, shared debasement between Theon and Sansa or the realization by Theon that
Sansa's going to be turned into a Reekess,
B) A rekindling of Theon's loyalty to the Starks (something that he's hinted at in the past and IIRC at the actual wedding)
C) an acknowledgement by him that he didn't kill Bran and Rickon before any plots would be hatched to kill the Boltons....
The wedding scene and wedding night more or less fulfilled two of those.