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I bet all those people who named their daughters  “Khaleesi” feel kinda dumb right now.

Why do people say the Arya thing is fan service? That’s so ### #### lazy. They spent 7 ####ing seasons working up to that. Pay attention. 

Let's talk about danny. First, she was nothing without her claim to the throne.  She was raised by her ######## brother to think that was the only thing that mattered. Episode 1 he starts out by

Link?

Not because I don't believe you. Because I want to laugh at them.

Mary Sue, wait!

Now that is ridiculous.

I didn't like it because I thought it was a gratuitous scene (unless something happens during/immediately after it next week, which seems unlikely since they never do that sort of cliffhanger). I thought it was bad TV, a dumb, unpleasant scene in a bad episode of a normally fantastic TV show.

But to drop the show because they "chose to use rape as a plot device?" That makes no sense. They've used rape and other horrible acts as plot devices many many times, as have countless other TV shows and other works of fiction.

it doesn't have to happen next week- is the timing important to you?- but I still believe that the scene will lead to further developments before the end of the season.

The timing is important for me because I don't think it changed the way the audience sees the characters or their relationships to one another at all. If Sansa and/or Theon plotted to murder Ramsay 2-3 episodes down the road it's not like we'd be confused about their motivation or conflicted as to how we feel about it. The other thing I thought about was maybe she gets pregnant, but everyone assumes a married couple would screw on their wedding night anyway- remember how they had to go out of their way to explain to us why Tyrion wasn't gonna consummate the marriage to Sansa.

The thing I disliked about it maybe more than it being gratuitous is that the scene the previous week at the dinner table was so well done. They'd just done this great, understated scene with those three characters that painted this great picture about their relationship and what was going on at Winterfell and then they followed up this week by taking the picture off the wall and clobbering you over the head with it.

Very good posting.

Which is strange because the same director (Jeremy Podeswa) and writer (Bryan Cogman) were behind the scenes for both episodes 5 and 6.

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OK again Im not even seeing how this is rape. She knew she had to consummate the marriage. She knew this was gonna happen that night. She started taking off her clothes and he ripped them off. That's rape now? He bent her over? Pretty sure that's called doggystyle. She screamed? Pretty sure shes a virgin and sex hurts the first time. She didn't like it? No duh the guy she married is part of the family that murdered her mother and brother. Pretty sure she hates the guy already. She never said no. The only disturbing thing about the scene was making her "brother" watch.

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speaking of .... did we ever get to the bottom of the Forbes article spoiler-gate?

Don't read the Forbes article if you don't want to learn about something that happens in those that must not be named that hasn't been on the show yet.

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The thing I disliked about it maybe more than it being gratuitous is that the scene the previous week at the dinner table was so well done. They'd just done this great, understated scene with those three characters that painted this great picture about their relationship and what was going on at Winterfell and then they followed up this week by taking the picture off the wall and clobbering you over the head with it.

This is very fair. And I agree. The dinner scene was great.

I agree with Tobias. The rape/not rape because it was the wedding night didn't bother me at all. I knew it was going to happen. The thing that bothered me was that I think it was supposed to be a pivotal moment, i.e. a red wedding moment. Maybe Reek kills Ramsay because of this, but honestly they could have done that without this scene. I am just disappointed in this season a bit and I believe that this was supposed to be a huge moment because it was a "rape" scene. I want huge moments to be huge moments due to the impact of what happened. Reek killing Ramsay (if that happens) doesn't need that.

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I wonder if the scene was changed just slightly if it would matter. After Sansa puts her head on the bed the camera moves to Theon and we see him getting gradually more despondent over what he is seeing and we hear Sansa cry/scream. Let's say everything happens in that scene the exact same way until the final second when we were looking at Theons face. If he moved forward toward the camera and his face changed immediately to one of vengence - all for really a literal second and the show ended. Would that have been better?

At that point we have to assume for this week that he was lunging forward to pull Ramsey off of Sansa or kill him. We would assume that Sansa is therefore saved. And would we be left holding our breath waiting for the next episode. Of course the previews that we did see would contradict this particular little change, but that isn't my point. I'm just wondering if the scene ended with what we think can literally happen next would make the whole thing an entirely different scene.

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Ok, so the argument is that it was 'gratuitous' how do you know it was or was not? It was the last scene in the episode. We have no idea what happens next. Perhaps it is vital to understanding what happens next. There are very, very, very few throw away scenes in this show (if any). Heck, pretty much almost every line in a scene has a purpose it seems to me.

My guess is that something is going to happen involving Reek and that likely watching Sansa (whom he would have considered a little sister) treated in that way is something that 'snaps' him out of his Reek state of mind.

Again, it is just absolutely silly to complain this. Absolutely freaking silly.

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Again, it is just absolutely silly to complain this. Absolutely freaking silly.

Why is it silly to say that seeing a rape scene makes you uncomfortable? You may be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean it's silly for other people to be uncomfortable with it.

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Again, it is just absolutely silly to complain this. Absolutely freaking silly.

Why is it silly to say that seeing a rape scene makes you uncomfortable? You may be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean it's silly for other people to be uncomfortable with it.

:goodposting:

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Again, it is just absolutely silly to complain this. Absolutely freaking silly.

Why is it silly to say that seeing a rape scene makes you uncomfortable? You may be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean it's silly for other people to be uncomfortable with it.

Because its fiction, and in no way was it glorifying the act.

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Karma

I agree with your take pretty much 100%. Question I was asking myself and wondering how you felt. Could they have shot the scene differently and more implied that she was raped and Theon was made to watch and been ok here with the outrage from many watchers? Maybe brought her into the room, made Theon enter as well and closed the door and just gotten some audio of a ripped dress and some tears from Sansa or something? I'm trying to figure out how they could have made the point in a softer way. I guess then the show wouldn't be GoT since that's what they are so good at.

I'll say this, it's nice to have someone to hate again as much as I hated Joffrey. Bolton was surely detestable but he was torturing a character that I wasn't too sympathetic about so it was a weird place to be.

Good question, and I think that they could have handled it differently, but as you and others have said - this is HBO and that is not what they do.

First, I don't think it had to be rape to begin with. They could have had another 'thing' happen that snaps Reek out of his funk. Sansa has more than enough ammo to hate the Boltons and take revenge, so this is basically still about Theon. I think Ramsey punishing Sansa for something Reek did and telling him that he is going to turn her into a female Reek would be just as twisted, snap Reek, and show us something different while staying in character for everybody.

If they are sitting around brainstorming and it just HAS to be rape that is done to her, I think yes - it could have been written different ways. Like you said, there could have been a cut after Reek enters, and we hear something going on. There could be a conversation the next morning - maybe Sansa yells at Reek for not stepping in, telling us that he was there. More ####ed up - maybe after Ramsey comes into the room we pan over and see Reek in a portable cage in the corner of the room or some ####.

I just think that rape in particular is a very hot button topic for people, so if you are going to depict in on screen you should be very careful about how you do it or make sure there is a purpose to showing it. This show doesn't seem to agree with that, and it has caused some backlash for them.

I understand this. I really do. I just still don't agree.

The main starting point for almost all of the hate for this scene is that "Sansa has suffered enough." So to me, that tells me that everyone was ok with what she has gone through previously. Psychological torture and some physical torture at the hands of Joffrey. Humiliation of the worst kind after that. Being used as a pawn by Littlefinger. All of that was ok somehow simpy because this now is worse. In fact, it was ok before hand because it was hoped that she would grow from it somehow. Now all of the sudden, what? She can't grow from this? A woman in a world where woman are raped and treated as less then second class citizens was raped in a situation that she herself had total control over and allowed to happen (within the context of the show, I'm not going down the line of real world rape. No woman deserves it for any reason ever so let's not go there).

So, what the people complaining about now are saying is that - we are ok with killing babies (live babies, not an abortion type thing) we are ok with people getting their throat cut; we kinda like the bad guy good guy bad guy thing from The Hound when he beat that poor dad for all his money because he had some good one liners during his time on screen; a really huge guy crushed a guys skull, women are tortured, raped, murdered and worse for simply being women; a pregnant mother has her baby eviscerated in her womb during a party, people are beheaded for ridiculous nonsense, children are poisoning other children and so on and so on and so on.....

.... but this is going too far? Really? What about Walter Frey's innocent daughter/wife whom Catherine killed just because she was standing there? Where is the outrage for her death? Everyone pretty much loves Jamie now for the most part but he threw a kid off a balcony. Panty wad people are getting all worked up about this particular horrible and by doing so are basically saying that everything else is ok, entertaining, understandable, part of the story, artistic license, used a plot to set up a better revenge type thing. There are websites out there posting now that they will no longer promote or follow the show because this is just too far.

It's ridiculous. It's a fricken TV show that has magic dwarfs, dragons, and ghost monsters who are birthed like babies and stone men that Marvel would be pround of. Give me a break. People love outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose. I can understand hating the scene for the changes it makes to the underlying story from the books. That I get. The book people hating it because they liked the book version of the story better - I get that. I think they are nuts for different reasons, but I get that. The real world outrage? Really? C'mon.

You make good points, and I know I am coming off as being so upset about this that I am not going to watch anymore, but that is not the case. I am just saying that I get why people are upset and I thing they good reason to be.

For me personally, Robb's wife getting stabbed in the stomach was worse. Maybe because it was shown, it was more of a surprise, I don't know. But with rape on campus and in general being a hot button topic and an extremely sensitive one, HBO doesn't seem to give to craps about how they handle it, or for what reason they do it.

I don't want to make it seem like I am out with a sign at HBO's studios or anything, I am just having a discussion on a message board. I have friends who have been raped, so maybe it is hitting home a bit and I get more upset than I should when people talk about even a fictional character being in that position or that it is just showing a "loss of innocence" or that it was just expected on the wedding night.

It is a fictional universe, BUT they are choosing how they are showing some real life situations that hit home for people in a very visceral way.

Wow white knight detected. You realize sansa is not going to have sex with you for being outraged about a fictional rape right?

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Again, it is just absolutely silly to complain this. Absolutely freaking silly.

Why is it silly to say that seeing a rape scene makes you uncomfortable? You may be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean it's silly for other people to be uncomfortable with it.

I'm sure there's a rerun of 7th Heaven you could watch instead

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Again, it is just absolutely silly to complain this. Absolutely freaking silly.

Why is it silly to say that seeing a rape scene makes you uncomfortable? You may be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean it's silly for other people to be uncomfortable with it.

I'm sure there's a rerun of 7th Heaven you could watch instead

Why would I want to watch that?

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Frankly, some of the posts in here are creeping me out a bit. Are you guys saying Sunday wasn't rape period, or in this fictional universe?

Comments like: she didn't say no, she kinda put herself in that position, well she started taking her clothes off, something was expected to happen that night, etc seem a bit off. Yes I know we are talking about a work of fiction, just saying I have been surprised by some of the posts and the opinions of the scene.

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Karma

I agree with your take pretty much 100%. Question I was asking myself and wondering how you felt. Could they have shot the scene differently and more implied that she was raped and Theon was made to watch and been ok here with the outrage from many watchers? Maybe brought her into the room, made Theon enter as well and closed the door and just gotten some audio of a ripped dress and some tears from Sansa or something? I'm trying to figure out how they could have made the point in a softer way. I guess then the show wouldn't be GoT since that's what they are so good at.

I'll say this, it's nice to have someone to hate again as much as I hated Joffrey. Bolton was surely detestable but he was torturing a character that I wasn't too sympathetic about so it was a weird place to be.

Good question, and I think that they could have handled it differently, but as you and others have said - this is HBO and that is not what they do.

First, I don't think it had to be rape to begin with. They could have had another 'thing' happen that snaps Reek out of his funk. Sansa has more than enough ammo to hate the Boltons and take revenge, so this is basically still about Theon. I think Ramsey punishing Sansa for something Reek did and telling him that he is going to turn her into a female Reek would be just as twisted, snap Reek, and show us something different while staying in character for everybody.

If they are sitting around brainstorming and it just HAS to be rape that is done to her, I think yes - it could have been written different ways. Like you said, there could have been a cut after Reek enters, and we hear something going on. There could be a conversation the next morning - maybe Sansa yells at Reek for not stepping in, telling us that he was there. More ####ed up - maybe after Ramsey comes into the room we pan over and see Reek in a portable cage in the corner of the room or some ####.

I just think that rape in particular is a very hot button topic for people, so if you are going to depict in on screen you should be very careful about how you do it or make sure there is a purpose to showing it. This show doesn't seem to agree with that, and it has caused some backlash for them.

I understand this. I really do. I just still don't agree.

The main starting point for almost all of the hate for this scene is that "Sansa has suffered enough." So to me, that tells me that everyone was ok with what she has gone through previously. Psychological torture and some physical torture at the hands of Joffrey. Humiliation of the worst kind after that. Being used as a pawn by Littlefinger. All of that was ok somehow simpy because this now is worse. In fact, it was ok before hand because it was hoped that she would grow from it somehow. Now all of the sudden, what? She can't grow from this? A woman in a world where woman are raped and treated as less then second class citizens was raped in a situation that she herself had total control over and allowed to happen (within the context of the show, I'm not going down the line of real world rape. No woman deserves it for any reason ever so let's not go there).

So, what the people complaining about now are saying is that - we are ok with killing babies (live babies, not an abortion type thing) we are ok with people getting their throat cut; we kinda like the bad guy good guy bad guy thing from The Hound when he beat that poor dad for all his money because he had some good one liners during his time on screen; a really huge guy crushed a guys skull, women are tortured, raped, murdered and worse for simply being women; a pregnant mother has her baby eviscerated in her womb during a party, people are beheaded for ridiculous nonsense, children are poisoning other children and so on and so on and so on.....

.... but this is going too far? Really? What about Walter Frey's innocent daughter/wife whom Catherine killed just because she was standing there? Where is the outrage for her death? Everyone pretty much loves Jamie now for the most part but he threw a kid off a balcony. Panty wad people are getting all worked up about this particular horrible and by doing so are basically saying that everything else is ok, entertaining, understandable, part of the story, artistic license, used a plot to set up a better revenge type thing. There are websites out there posting now that they will no longer promote or follow the show because this is just too far.

It's ridiculous. It's a fricken TV show that has magic dwarfs, dragons, and ghost monsters who are birthed like babies and stone men that Marvel would be pround of. Give me a break. People love outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose. I can understand hating the scene for the changes it makes to the underlying story from the books. That I get. The book people hating it because they liked the book version of the story better - I get that. I think they are nuts for different reasons, but I get that. The real world outrage? Really? C'mon.

You make good points, and I know I am coming off as being so upset about this that I am not going to watch anymore, but that is not the case. I am just saying that I get why people are upset and I thing they good reason to be.

For me personally, Robb's wife getting stabbed in the stomach was worse. Maybe because it was shown, it was more of a surprise, I don't know. But with rape on campus and in general being a hot button topic and an extremely sensitive one, HBO doesn't seem to give to craps about how they handle it, or for what reason they do it.

I don't want to make it seem like I am out with a sign at HBO's studios or anything, I am just having a discussion on a message board. I have friends who have been raped, so maybe it is hitting home a bit and I get more upset than I should when people talk about even a fictional character being in that position or that it is just showing a "loss of innocence" or that it was just expected on the wedding night.

It is a fictional universe, BUT they are choosing how they are showing some real life situations that hit home for people in a very visceral way.

As they have in the entire series.

Sure, but I think after 5 seasons a lot of people are tiring of it if it doesn't have a purpose other than they can show it because they are HBO and that is what they do.

Like somebody else said, I am sure a certain bit of this equation is just about across the board people seem to be bored or disappointed with the season in general, so there aren't the normal highs of the show to hide scenes like this that people don't like.

I think it did have a purpose in a couple of regards. 1) it reinforced what Ramsey is (I can agree that people could see that as redundant as we all know what he is) and 2) I imagine it serves, if not as the final straw on the back of the camel, at least a wake up call to Theon/Sansa that things aren't going to get any better and they should take things into their own hands....A cynic might even think that Sansa's a willing participant and she's playing a long con (in itself a bit weird as I'd assume that people would see her allowing herself to be raped to further herself in the game(if one can do that?) as the ultimate female empowerment moment)

I am arguing, as are others that: 1. We know what Ramsey is, so we didn't need that. 2. they didn't need to use that specifically as a plot device yet again to achieve that end result.

I guess we will see - maybe the end result is to have Sansa knocked up, and this was their way to get there. There still is the choice to have a rape result in that, and not just normal uncomfortable married sex end in a pregnacy and Ramsey pushing Theon over the edge another way.

But it's the natural progression of the story in regards to the characters at play. To criticize it is to criticize the character of Ramsey and the idea of marrying Sansa and Ramsey. Once that happened, for it to go down any other way would ring false. Ramsey's been established as a lusty fellow. They've established a main motif on the behalf of the Boltons is to legitimize their claim in the North by having Ramsey and Sansa produce heirs (a point brought up in regards to the ruling of the North by Tywin in S3). I'd almost argue that any other act by Ramsey to exert control and play mind games (flay Sansa's finger, beat Reek in front of her, etc. etc.) wouldn't jibe with the motives of the characters in that particular situation.

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Frankly, some of the posts in here are creeping me out a bit. Are you guys saying Sunday wasn't rape period, or in this fictional universe?

Comments like: she didn't say no, she kinda put herself in that position, well she started taking her clothes off, something was expected to happen that night, etc seem a bit off. Yes I know we are talking about a work of fiction, just saying I have been surprised by some of the posts and the opinions of the scene.

Frankly, some of the posts in here are creeping me out a bit. Are you guys saying Sunday wasn't rape period, or in this fictional universe?

Comments like: she didn't say no, she kinda put herself in that position, well she started taking her clothes off, something was expected to happen that night, etc seem a bit off. Yes I know we are talking about a work of fiction, just saying I have been surprised by some of the posts and the opinions of the scene.

I think that defining it by our contemporary standards, it's rape.......with some type of strange mindgame/cuckoldry going on. Defining it by societal standards of a Westerosi wedding night....it's not...yet still with the mindgames.

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Karma

I agree with your take pretty much 100%. Question I was asking myself and wondering how you felt. Could they have shot the scene differently and more implied that she was raped and Theon was made to watch and been ok here with the outrage from many watchers? Maybe brought her into the room, made Theon enter as well and closed the door and just gotten some audio of a ripped dress and some tears from Sansa or something? I'm trying to figure out how they could have made the point in a softer way. I guess then the show wouldn't be GoT since that's what they are so good at.

I'll say this, it's nice to have someone to hate again as much as I hated Joffrey. Bolton was surely detestable but he was torturing a character that I wasn't too sympathetic about so it was a weird place to be.

Good question, and I think that they could have handled it differently, but as you and others have said - this is HBO and that is not what they do.

First, I don't think it had to be rape to begin with. They could have had another 'thing' happen that snaps Reek out of his funk. Sansa has more than enough ammo to hate the Boltons and take revenge, so this is basically still about Theon. I think Ramsey punishing Sansa for something Reek did and telling him that he is going to turn her into a female Reek would be just as twisted, snap Reek, and show us something different while staying in character for everybody.

If they are sitting around brainstorming and it just HAS to be rape that is done to her, I think yes - it could have been written different ways. Like you said, there could have been a cut after Reek enters, and we hear something going on. There could be a conversation the next morning - maybe Sansa yells at Reek for not stepping in, telling us that he was there. More ####ed up - maybe after Ramsey comes into the room we pan over and see Reek in a portable cage in the corner of the room or some ####.

I just think that rape in particular is a very hot button topic for people, so if you are going to depict in on screen you should be very careful about how you do it or make sure there is a purpose to showing it. This show doesn't seem to agree with that, and it has caused some backlash for them.

I understand this. I really do. I just still don't agree.

The main starting point for almost all of the hate for this scene is that "Sansa has suffered enough." So to me, that tells me that everyone was ok with what she has gone through previously. Psychological torture and some physical torture at the hands of Joffrey. Humiliation of the worst kind after that. Being used as a pawn by Littlefinger. All of that was ok somehow simpy because this now is worse. In fact, it was ok before hand because it was hoped that she would grow from it somehow. Now all of the sudden, what? She can't grow from this? A woman in a world where woman are raped and treated as less then second class citizens was raped in a situation that she herself had total control over and allowed to happen (within the context of the show, I'm not going down the line of real world rape. No woman deserves it for any reason ever so let's not go there).

So, what the people complaining about now are saying is that - we are ok with killing babies (live babies, not an abortion type thing) we are ok with people getting their throat cut; we kinda like the bad guy good guy bad guy thing from The Hound when he beat that poor dad for all his money because he had some good one liners during his time on screen; a really huge guy crushed a guys skull, women are tortured, raped, murdered and worse for simply being women; a pregnant mother has her baby eviscerated in her womb during a party, people are beheaded for ridiculous nonsense, children are poisoning other children and so on and so on and so on.....

.... but this is going too far? Really? What about Walter Frey's innocent daughter/wife whom Catherine killed just because she was standing there? Where is the outrage for her death? Everyone pretty much loves Jamie now for the most part but he threw a kid off a balcony. Panty wad people are getting all worked up about this particular horrible and by doing so are basically saying that everything else is ok, entertaining, understandable, part of the story, artistic license, used a plot to set up a better revenge type thing. There are websites out there posting now that they will no longer promote or follow the show because this is just too far.

It's ridiculous. It's a fricken TV show that has magic dwarfs, dragons, and ghost monsters who are birthed like babies and stone men that Marvel would be pround of. Give me a break. People love outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose. I can understand hating the scene for the changes it makes to the underlying story from the books. That I get. The book people hating it because they liked the book version of the story better - I get that. I think they are nuts for different reasons, but I get that. The real world outrage? Really? C'mon.

You make good points, and I know I am coming off as being so upset about this that I am not going to watch anymore, but that is not the case. I am just saying that I get why people are upset and I thing they good reason to be.

For me personally, Robb's wife getting stabbed in the stomach was worse. Maybe because it was shown, it was more of a surprise, I don't know. But with rape on campus and in general being a hot button topic and an extremely sensitive one, HBO doesn't seem to give to craps about how they handle it, or for what reason they do it.

I don't want to make it seem like I am out with a sign at HBO's studios or anything, I am just having a discussion on a message board. I have friends who have been raped, so maybe it is hitting home a bit and I get more upset than I should when people talk about even a fictional character being in that position or that it is just showing a "loss of innocence" or that it was just expected on the wedding night.

It is a fictional universe, BUT they are choosing how they are showing some real life situations that hit home for people in a very visceral way.

As they have in the entire series.

Sure, but I think after 5 seasons a lot of people are tiring of it if it doesn't have a purpose other than they can show it because they are HBO and that is what they do.

Like somebody else said, I am sure a certain bit of this equation is just about across the board people seem to be bored or disappointed with the season in general, so there aren't the normal highs of the show to hide scenes like this that people don't like.

I think it did have a purpose in a couple of regards. 1) it reinforced what Ramsey is (I can agree that people could see that as redundant as we all know what he is) and 2) I imagine it serves, if not as the final straw on the back of the camel, at least a wake up call to Theon/Sansa that things aren't going to get any better and they should take things into their own hands....A cynic might even think that Sansa's a willing participant and she's playing a long con (in itself a bit weird as I'd assume that people would see her allowing herself to be raped to further herself in the game(if one can do that?) as the ultimate female empowerment moment)

I am arguing, as are others that: 1. We know what Ramsey is, so we didn't need that. 2. they didn't need to use that specifically as a plot device yet again to achieve that end result.

I guess we will see - maybe the end result is to have Sansa knocked up, and this was their way to get there. There still is the choice to have a rape result in that, and not just normal uncomfortable married sex end in a pregnacy and Ramsey pushing Theon over the edge another way.

But it's the natural progression of the story in regards to the characters at play. To criticize it is to criticize the character of Ramsey and the idea of marrying Sansa and Ramsey. Once that happened, for it to go down any other way would ring false. Ramsey's been established as a lusty fellow. They've established a main motif on the behalf of the Boltons is to legitimize their claim in the North by having Ramsey and Sansa produce heirs (a point brought up in regards to the ruling of the North by Tywin in S3). I'd almost argue that any other act by Ramsey to exert control and play mind games (flay Sansa's finger, beat Reek in front of her, etc. etc.) wouldn't jibe with the motives of the characters in that particular situation.

I am criticizing both things. I think a lot of Ramsey's act are reaching the level of cartoonish. Not a fan of Sansa in this situation either.

We will agree to disagree that it had to come to this. Scenes like the dinner scene are far better and bringing in something like flaying to the situation would maybe bring Roose also into the equation, which at least I would find interesting.

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I am criticizing both things. I think a lot of Ramsey's act are reaching the level of cartoonish. Not a fan of Sansa in this situation either.

We will agree to disagree that it had to come to this. Scenes like the dinner scene are far better and bringing in something like flaying to the situation would maybe bring Roose also into the equation, which at least I would find interesting.

I think the delivery of the actor playing him lends to cartoonery (if that's even a word). He doesn't quite have that "teenage moodiness and uncertainty of adolescence juxtaposed with unchecked power" delivery that Joffery had. I think the actor playing Ramsey's hamming it up a bit.

I agree about the dinner......and I would like to see/hear Roose's opinions on his sons ability.

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Frankly, some of the posts in here are creeping me out a bit. Are you guys saying Sunday wasn't rape period, or in this fictional universe?

Comments like: she didn't say no, she kinda put herself in that position, well she started taking her clothes off, something was expected to happen that night, etc seem a bit off. Yes I know we are talking about a work of fiction, just saying I have been surprised by some of the posts and the opinions of the scene.

Frankly, some of the posts in here are creeping me out a bit. Are you guys saying Sunday wasn't rape period, or in this fictional universe?

Comments like: she didn't say no, she kinda put herself in that position, well she started taking her clothes off, something was expected to happen that night, etc seem a bit off. Yes I know we are talking about a work of fiction, just saying I have been surprised by some of the posts and the opinions of the scene.

I think that defining it by our contemporary standards, it's rape.......with some type of strange mindgame/cuckoldry going on. Defining it by societal standards of a Westerosi wedding night....it's not...yet still with the mindgames.

Fair enough, though we have been shown a handful of Westerosi wedding nights, and this is the only one that was like this. So not sure it is fair to say that about the standards for the night.

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Rewatched the episode last night. They definitely played up the fact that Bronn got cut. He's gotta be poisoned right?

That's what I think. Shame. Good character. Hopefully he goes out in a blaze of glory somehow. They could be setting it up for some kind of trial by combat thing in Dorne I guess where the leader of the Sandsnakes demands it and Jamie tells his daughter to name Bronn as his fighter since Jamie has no left hand. He kills her but dies in the process as well. Could work.

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Again, it is just absolutely silly to complain this. Absolutely freaking silly.

Why is it silly to say that seeing a rape scene makes you uncomfortable? You may be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean it's silly for other people to be uncomfortable with it.

Saying it made you uncomfortable is one thing. Complaining about it as being part of rape culture or whatever else IS silly. Of course it made you uncomfortable. Bad things are suppose to make you uncomfortable. If this is the only scene that has made you uncomfortable in this series then you have issues. How many of those scenes did you complain about?

Also, another point on this. How in the world is it gratuitous? You could label it gratuitous if we saw some naked Sansa but we did not. And why is someone complaining now about something being gratuitous? There has been a ton of gratuitous naked bodies and sex on this show- did you silly people complain then? And if you did- why the bleep are you watching the show?!

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Rewatched the episode last night. They definitely played up the fact that Bronn got cut. He's gotta be poisoned right?

That's what I think. Shame. Good character. Hopefully he goes out in a blaze of glory somehow. They could be setting it up for some kind of trial by combat thing in Dorne I guess where the leader of the Sandsnakes demands it and Jamie tells his daughter to name Bronn as his fighter since Jamie has no left hand. He kills her but dies in the process as well. Could work.

Definitely a potential spoiler below:

Was curious about the poison + Bronn and googled it figured since it wasn't in the books I was free from stumbling upon spoilers and came across this:

Apparently, around June of 2014, an audition script for the Tyene character was leaked which contains the following back and forth. Who knows if it's actually a real scene or not, but it could definitely follow that fight, and appears there's hope for Bronn.

Tyene: He has a good voice.

Obara: He's a singer, if he was a fighter we might've been in trouble.

Bronn: It's against my code to hurt women.

Obara: It's amazing how many men we beat seem to have this code.

Bronn: I wouldn't say you beat me.

Tyene: And how is your arm?

Bronn: Wonderful. Wouldn't feel right to leave Dorne without a new scar.

Obara: You think you're leaving Dorne?

Bronn: No great hurry. Dornish women are the most beautiful in the world.

Tyene: Thank you.

Bronn: I said Dornish women, I didn't say you.

Tyene: I'm not the most beautiful woman you have ever seen?

Bronn: I've seen quite a few women in all the Seven Kingdoms.

Tyene: Tell me one woman more beautiful than I am.

Bronn: Well, now in King's Landing there was an absolute...

Tyene: There was a what? In King's Landing you were saying...

Bronn: Was I?

Tyene: ...there is a woman more beautiful than I am.

Bronn: Was there? My memory's not what it was earlier.

Tyene: And how is your arm now.

Bronn: You seem concerned with it. You must really like me.

Tyene: And how is your head?

Bronn: My head? You don't even want to know what's going on in there.

Tyene: What was that, are you sure you're feeling alright?

Bronn: Sure, a bit woozy but that's to be expected after a good dust-up.

Tyene: Your nose is bleeding.

Bronn: It's not it's the dry air.

Tyene: My dagger was coated with a special ointment from Asshai. It's called the Long Farewell. It can take some time to work some times several days. But if one single drop makes contact with the skin...death.

Tyene: The only antidote. Who is the most beautiful woman in the world? Who? Who, sorry?

Bronn: You.

She takes whatever the antidote it is from or off of her necklace and gives it to him.

Tyene: Don't drop it. I think you're very handsome as well.

She blows him a kiss and laughs.

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I'll jump in. I guess I have a hard time seeing how it was rape.

  • When Littlefinger left, Sansa commented that she'd probably be married when he got back. So she knew she was getting married soon.
  • It's no mystery what the wedding night expectations are and everyone in the North sees the "bedding" ceremony where they whisk off the new couple at the reception.
  • The actual act of it was much rougher than she would have obviously liked. And Reek being forced to watch clearly adds a huge creepiness element to it. But what he did to her was no different than what Khal Drogo did to Dany. They roughly took their new wives from behind on their wedding night and neither bride seemed to enjoy it.
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Rewatched the episode last night. They definitely played up the fact that Bronn got cut. He's gotta be poisoned right?

Yea, they sure did.

I certainly will miss Bronn but he is kind of a character lost in the story now that he is no longer Tyrion's right hand man. Much better to have him go out in a blaze of glory somehow than to have him just melt off into the sunset to some castle and noble wife.

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Again, it is just absolutely silly to complain this. Absolutely freaking silly.

Why is it silly to say that seeing a rape scene makes you uncomfortable? You may be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean it's silly for other people to be uncomfortable with it.

Saying it made you uncomfortable is one thing. Complaining about it as being part of rape culture or whatever else IS silly. Of course it made you uncomfortable. Bad things are suppose to make you uncomfortable. If this is the only scene that has made you uncomfortable in this series then you have issues.

Agreed.

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Again, it is just absolutely silly to complain this. Absolutely freaking silly.

Why is it silly to say that seeing a rape scene makes you uncomfortable? You may be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean it's silly for other people to be uncomfortable with it.

Saying it made you uncomfortable is one thing. Complaining about it as being part of rape culture or whatever else IS silly. Of course it made you uncomfortable. Bad things are suppose to make you uncomfortable. If this is the only scene that has made you uncomfortable in this series then you have issues. How many of those scenes did you complain about?

Also, another point on this. How in the world is it gratuitous? You could label it gratuitous if we saw some naked Sansa but we did not. And why is someone complaining now about something being gratuitous? There has been a ton of gratuitous naked bodies and sex on this show- did you silly people complain then? And if you did- why the bleep are you watching the show?!

Cool. You can tell the bolded to someone who complained about that. Did anyone here do that?

As for it being gratuitous- I explained it a couple times already, but here goes. It didn't add to or change our understanding of the characters and how they relate to each other in any way. It was basically a non-subtle version of something that already happened with the same exact characters the previous week at the dinner table with Theon being forced to apologize for "killing" Sansa's siblings. And unless the scene picks up right where it left off- which they never do on this show- then it doesn't really change the narrative in any way, because there was already more than sufficient grounds for either character to eventually lash out at Ramsay before this. If they hadn't shown that scene but they opened next week with Sansa and Theon plotting to murder the Boltons, nobody would have been the slightest bit confused about it. Thus, gratuitous IMO.

And the other gratuitous displays didn't bother me as much because the idea of presenting nudity or sex or even violence for the audience to enjoy independent of any narrative doesn't seem odd to me, but doing that for rape does. They're all different things and I feel differently about enjoying each of them onscreen for their own sake. I assume most other people feel the same way.

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Again, it is just absolutely silly to complain this. Absolutely freaking silly.

Why is it silly to say that seeing a rape scene makes you uncomfortable? You may be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean it's silly for other people to be uncomfortable with it.

Saying it made you uncomfortable is one thing. Complaining about it as being part of rape culture or whatever else IS silly. Of course it made you uncomfortable. Bad things are suppose to make you uncomfortable. If this is the only scene that has made you uncomfortable in this series then you have issues. How many of those scenes did you complain about?

Also, another point on this. How in the world is it gratuitous? You could label it gratuitous if we saw some naked Sansa but we did not. And why is someone complaining now about something being gratuitous? There has been a ton of gratuitous naked bodies and sex on this show- did you silly people complain then? And if you did- why the bleep are you watching the show?!

Cool. You can tell the bolded to someone who complained about that. Did anyone here do that?

As for it being gratuitous- I explained it a couple times already, but here goes. It didn't add to or change our understanding of the characters and how they relate to each other in any way. It was basically a non-subtle version of something that already happened with the same exact characters the previous week at the dinner table with Theon being forced to apologize for "killing" Sansa's siblings. And unless the scene picks up right where it left off- which they never do on this show- then it doesn't really change the narrative in any way, because there was already more than sufficient grounds for either character to eventually lash out at Ramsay before this. If they hadn't shown that scene but they opened next week with Sansa and Theon plotting to murder the Boltons, nobody would have been the slightest bit confused about it. Thus, gratuitous IMO.

And the other gratuitous displays didn't bother me as much because the idea of presenting nudity or sex or even violence for the audience to enjoy independent of any narrative doesn't seem odd to me, but doing that for rape does. They're all different things and I feel differently about enjoying each of them onscreen for their own sake. I assume most other people feel the same way.

I disagree with that per Sansa's reaction to Theon when he came to give her away in this past weeks episode. There was no sympathy for him or his predicament. She might have thought Ramsey strange or sadistic at the dinner party for what he did to Theon.....but I'm not sure that she felt sorrow for Theon for what has happened to him. There needs to be:

A) individual debasement of Sansa by Ramsey, shared debasement between Theon and Sansa or the realization by Theon that

Sansa's going to be turned into a Reekess,

B) A rekindling of Theon's loyalty to the Starks (something that he's hinted at in the past and IIRC at the actual wedding)

C) an acknowledgement by him that he didn't kill Bran and Rickon before any plots would be hatched to kill the Boltons....

The wedding scene and wedding night more or less fulfilled two of those.

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Again, it is just absolutely silly to complain this. Absolutely freaking silly.

Why is it silly to say that seeing a rape scene makes you uncomfortable? You may be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean it's silly for other people to be uncomfortable with it.

Saying it made you uncomfortable is one thing. Complaining about it as being part of rape culture or whatever else IS silly. Of course it made you uncomfortable. Bad things are suppose to make you uncomfortable. If this is the only scene that has made you uncomfortable in this series then you have issues. How many of those scenes did you complain about?

Also, another point on this. How in the world is it gratuitous? You could label it gratuitous if we saw some naked Sansa but we did not. And why is someone complaining now about something being gratuitous? There has been a ton of gratuitous naked bodies and sex on this show- did you silly people complain then? And if you did- why the bleep are you watching the show?!

Cool. You can tell the bolded to someone who complained about that. Did anyone here do that?

As for it being gratuitous- I explained it a couple times already, but here goes. It didn't add to or change our understanding of the characters and how they relate to each other in any way. It was basically a non-subtle version of something that already happened with the same exact characters the previous week at the dinner table with Theon being forced to apologize for "killing" Sansa's siblings. And unless the scene picks up right where it left off- which they never do on this show- then it doesn't really change the narrative in any way, because there was already more than sufficient grounds for either character to eventually lash out at Ramsay before this. If they hadn't shown that scene but they opened next week with Sansa and Theon plotting to murder the Boltons, nobody would have been the slightest bit confused about it. Thus, gratuitous IMO.

And the other gratuitous displays didn't bother me as much because the idea of presenting nudity or sex or even violence for the audience to enjoy independent of any narrative doesn't seem odd to me, but doing that for rape does. They're all different things and I feel differently about enjoying each of them onscreen for their own sake. I assume most other people feel the same way.

I disagree with that per Sansa's reaction to Theon when he came to give her away in this past weeks episode. There was no sympathy for him or his predicament. She might have thought Ramsey strange or sadistic at the dinner party for what he did to Theon.....but I'm not sure that she felt sorrow for Theon for what has happened to him. There needs to be:

A) individual debasement of Sansa by Ramsey, shared debasement between Theon and Sansa or the realization by Theon that

Sansa's going to be turned into a Reekess,

B) A rekindling of Theon's loyalty to the Starks (something that he's hinted at in the past and IIRC at the actual wedding)

C) an acknowledgement by him that he didn't kill Bran and Rickon before any plots would be hatched to kill the Boltons....

The wedding scene and wedding night more or less fulfilled two of those.

Agree. Theon had his own sister there ready to save him and wouldn't turn on Ramsay. He needs a stronger catalyst if he's going to get back to Theon, and that's why I don't understand the gratuitous complaints.

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Again, it is just absolutely silly to complain this. Absolutely freaking silly.

Why is it silly to say that seeing a rape scene makes you uncomfortable? You may be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean it's silly for other people to be uncomfortable with it.

Saying it made you uncomfortable is one thing. Complaining about it as being part of rape culture or whatever else IS silly. Of course it made you uncomfortable. Bad things are suppose to make you uncomfortable. If this is the only scene that has made you uncomfortable in this series then you have issues. How many of those scenes did you complain about?

Also, another point on this. How in the world is it gratuitous? You could label it gratuitous if we saw some naked Sansa but we did not. And why is someone complaining now about something being gratuitous? There has been a ton of gratuitous naked bodies and sex on this show- did you silly people complain then? And if you did- why the bleep are you watching the show?!

Cool. You can tell the bolded to someone who complained about that. Did anyone here do that?

As for it being gratuitous- I explained it a couple times already, but here goes. It didn't add to or change our understanding of the characters and how they relate to each other in any way. It was basically a non-subtle version of something that already happened with the same exact characters the previous week at the dinner table with Theon being forced to apologize for "killing" Sansa's siblings. And unless the scene picks up right where it left off- which they never do on this show- then it doesn't really change the narrative in any way, because there was already more than sufficient grounds for either character to eventually lash out at Ramsay before this. If they hadn't shown that scene but they opened next week with Sansa and Theon plotting to murder the Boltons, nobody would have been the slightest bit confused about it. Thus, gratuitous IMO.

And the other gratuitous displays didn't bother me as much because the idea of presenting nudity or sex or even violence for the audience to enjoy independent of any narrative doesn't seem odd to me, but doing that for rape does. They're all different things and I feel differently about enjoying each of them onscreen for their own sake. I assume most other people feel the same way.

I disagree with that per Sansa's reaction to Theon when he came to give her away in this past weeks episode. There was no sympathy for him or his predicament. She might have thought Ramsey strange or sadistic at the dinner party for what he did to Theon.....but I'm not sure that she felt sorrow for Theon for what has happened to him. There needs to be:

A) individual debasement of Sansa by Ramsey, shared debasement between Theon and Sansa or the realization by Theon that

Sansa's going to be turned into a Reekess,

B) A rekindling of Theon's loyalty to the Starks (something that he's hinted at in the past and IIRC at the actual wedding)

C) an acknowledgement by him that he didn't kill Bran and Rickon before any plots would be hatched to kill the Boltons....

The wedding scene and wedding night more or less fulfilled two of those.

I like this. Helps me reconcile it a bit.

I think part of the reason I didn't like it is that I didn't like the entire episode, so when it seemed like it was building to this big moment but I saw it as more of the same old same old for each of the characters it was frustrating and annoying. I guess this is the right way to look at it- that even though it didn't change anything regarding how we saw any of the characters it might change how Sansa sees Theon/Reek, like maybe he's more of an ally now.

Thanks, good stuff.

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I'm finding it very hard to take anyone who is/was really disturbed about the Sansa/Ramsay thing seriously.

If something like this is "over the line" then you should have stopped watching a long time ago. Did you have the same reaction when Theon had the little kids killed (the ones near Winterfell) or when Theon had his junk cut off or when any of the other numerous horrific things happened?

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I'm finding it very hard to take anyone who is/was really disturbed about the Sansa/Ramsay thing seriously.

If something like this is "over the line" then you should have stopped watching a long time ago. Did you have the same reaction when Theon had the little kids killed (the ones near Winterfell) or when Theon had his junk cut off or when any of the other numerous horrific things happened?

Is someone paying you to build these or were you just bored and you had a lot of straw lying around?

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I'm finding it very hard to take anyone who is/was really disturbed about the Sansa/Ramsay thing seriously.

If something like this is "over the line" then you should have stopped watching a long time ago. Did you have the same reaction when Theon had the little kids killed (the ones near Winterfell) or when Theon had his junk cut off or when any of the other numerous horrific things happened?

Is someone paying you to build these or were you just bored and you had a lot of straw lying around?

All were disturbing/unsettling. Why is the Sansa scene so much more noteworthy and worthy of outrage?

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I'm finding it very hard to take anyone who is/was really disturbed about the Sansa/Ramsay thing seriously.

If something like this is "over the line" then you should have stopped watching a long time ago. Did you have the same reaction when Theon had the little kids killed (the ones near Winterfell) or when Theon had his junk cut off or when any of the other numerous horrific things happened?

Is someone paying you to build these or were you just bored and you had a lot of straw lying around?

All were disturbing/unsettling. Why is the Sansa scene so much more noteworthy and worthy of outrage?

Every criticism I've seen of the scene here or elsewhere has focused on it being either gratuitous (the other scenes all developed the characters or furthered the plot in a way this one didn't) or that the cumulative effect of the rapes and whatnot reaching the point where they're annoyed with or frustrated by the show. This idea that other scenes were more graphic or disturbing or unsettling than this one is a straw man argument because nobody's arguing otherwise.

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I'm finding it very hard to take anyone who is/was really disturbed about the Sansa/Ramsay thing seriously.

If something like this is "over the line" then you should have stopped watching a long time ago. Did you have the same reaction when Theon had the little kids killed (the ones near Winterfell) or when Theon had his junk cut off or when any of the other numerous horrific things happened?

Is someone paying you to build these or were you just bored and you had a lot of straw lying around?

All were disturbing/unsettling. Why is the Sansa scene so much more noteworthy and worthy of outrage?

Every criticism I've seen of the scene here or elsewhere has focused on it being either gratuitous (the other scenes all developed the characters or furthered the plot in a way this one didn't) or that the cumulative effect of the rapes and whatnot reaching the point where they're annoyed with or frustrated by the show. This idea that other scenes were more graphic or disturbing or unsettling than this one is a straw man argument because nobody's arguing otherwise.

I think this will have furthered the plot in ways that other scenes, particularly the dinner scene, have not done.

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I'm finding it very hard to take anyone who is/was really disturbed about the Sansa/Ramsay thing seriously.

If something like this is "over the line" then you should have stopped watching a long time ago. Did you have the same reaction when Theon had the little kids killed (the ones near Winterfell) or when Theon had his junk cut off or when any of the other numerous horrific things happened?

Is someone paying you to build these or were you just bored and you had a lot of straw lying around?

All were disturbing/unsettling. Why is the Sansa scene so much more noteworthy and worthy of outrage?

Every criticism I've seen of the scene here or elsewhere has focused on it being either gratuitous (the other scenes all developed the characters or furthered the plot in a way this one didn't) or that the cumulative effect of the rapes and whatnot reaching the point where they're annoyed with or frustrated by the show. This idea that other scenes were more graphic or disturbing or unsettling than this one is a straw man argument because nobody's arguing otherwise.

I think this will have furthered the plot in ways that other scenes, particularly the dinner scene, have not done.

Yeah, Thunderlips gave a solid breakdown of that possibility a few posts up. Changed my take on the scene a bit. That's why I read these threads :thumbup:

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I'm finding it very hard to take anyone who is/was really disturbed about the Sansa/Ramsay thing seriously.

If something like this is "over the line" then you should have stopped watching a long time ago. Did you have the same reaction when Theon had the little kids killed (the ones near Winterfell) or when Theon had his junk cut off or when any of the other numerous horrific things happened?

Is someone paying you to build these or were you just bored and you had a lot of straw lying around?

Yes. Pretty handsomely too.

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Again, it is just absolutely silly to complain this. Absolutely freaking silly.

Why is it silly to say that seeing a rape scene makes you uncomfortable? You may be comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean it's silly for other people to be uncomfortable with it.

Saying it made you uncomfortable is one thing. Complaining about it as being part of rape culture or whatever else IS silly. Of course it made you uncomfortable. Bad things are suppose to make you uncomfortable. If this is the only scene that has made you uncomfortable in this series then you have issues. How many of those scenes did you complain about?

Also, another point on this. How in the world is it gratuitous? You could label it gratuitous if we saw some naked Sansa but we did not. And why is someone complaining now about something being gratuitous? There has been a ton of gratuitous naked bodies and sex on this show- did you silly people complain then? And if you did- why the bleep are you watching the show?!

Cool. You can tell the bolded to someone who complained about that. Did anyone here do that?

As for it being gratuitous- I explained it a couple times already, but here goes. It didn't add to or change our understanding of the characters and how they relate to each other in any way. It was basically a non-subtle version of something that already happened with the same exact characters the previous week at the dinner table with Theon being forced to apologize for "killing" Sansa's siblings. And unless the scene picks up right where it left off- which they never do on this show- then it doesn't really change the narrative in any way, because there was already more than sufficient grounds for either character to eventually lash out at Ramsay before this. If they hadn't shown that scene but they opened next week with Sansa and Theon plotting to murder the Boltons, nobody would have been the slightest bit confused about it. Thus, gratuitous IMO.

And the other gratuitous displays didn't bother me as much because the idea of presenting nudity or sex or even violence for the audience to enjoy independent of any narrative doesn't seem odd to me, but doing that for rape does. They're all different things and I feel differently about enjoying each of them onscreen for their own sake. I assume most other people feel the same way.

I disagree with that per Sansa's reaction to Theon when he came to give her away in this past weeks episode. There was no sympathy for him or his predicament. She might have thought Ramsey strange or sadistic at the dinner party for what he did to Theon.....but I'm not sure that she felt sorrow for Theon for what has happened to him. There needs to be:

A) individual debasement of Sansa by Ramsey, shared debasement between Theon and Sansa or the realization by Theon that

Sansa's going to be turned into a Reekess,

B) A rekindling of Theon's loyalty to the Starks (something that he's hinted at in the past and IIRC at the actual wedding)

C) an acknowledgement by him that he didn't kill Bran and Rickon before any plots would be hatched to kill the Boltons....

The wedding scene and wedding night more or less fulfilled two of those.

C is definitely the main point here. To this point, I think that Sansa doesn't need any further inducement to want to kill Ramsey. Theon is totally messed up and can break at any minute, but its difficult to believe that Sansa would deal with the man who she thinks burned/killed her two brothers and put them on display.

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