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Here's what I get about big melees like this...how do people not constantly bump and stumble into each other? And if you're a Wildling, aren't you just going around blind-siding people when they're fighting with someone else? Like all the time? Seems like the best way to go, just stick and move. That seems to be a good strategy, just hold your guy off long enough and let a few designated guys come around sticking everybody in the back.

And when the dudes on top of the wall were shooting arrows down at the horde of bad guys below, how did they get hit with those arrows? Did they just watch them all the way in until they hit their chest? Wouldn't you move out of the way?

And if the 20 dudes who got over the wall and came in through the South gate were far more effective in killing Crows, shouldn't they have had more people just do that? That big group of dudes at the base of the MASSIVE ####### WALL is getting nothing done. They throw barrels on them like Donkey Kong, swing the big metal anchor at them, or shoot them with arrows that they watch for 10 seconds as they arc through the air until they hit their chest.

Even if like 80% of the guys who try to climb over the wall don't make it, that 20% is going to get more done coming in through the South gate than the guys with no chance. Even if they didn't have that big anchor thing, what do they think's going to happen when they get to the top of the wall? The Crows will just let them up? "Here, have some tea and warm up, then we'll get on with it."?

I've got questions, man.

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"Hey, we're all going to the Wall. Once we get over to the other side, it's going to be raping and pillaging as far as the eye can see. Oh, how are we getting over the Wall that's like 5000 feet high? Well 20 people are going to climb it first and attack from the other side while we just hang out down at the bottom, then they'll let us in. So pack up your stuff, I mean #### what can go wrong."

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My one complaint was that the morning after was kinda anti-climatic.

The Nights Watch took out like 1% of the wildling army (if that) and it probably cost them 1/2 their defending force (including their acting commander). Not much of a victory considering they spent an entire episode on it. (and 3 years of build up)

I was under the impression that Thorne did not die. He obviously was severely wounded, but they just showed him being carried away.

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Can someone explain to me the logistics of the wall/castle black? I thought that the wildlings were north of the wall and they had to climb the wall to get to Castle Black. Yet, while they are all defending the wall, Ygritte and company come knocking at the front door.

Don't you remember that Ygritte and company climbed the wall with Jon Snow earlier?

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Can someone explain to me the logistics of the wall/castle black? I thought that the wildlings were north of the wall and they had to climb the wall to get to Castle Black. Yet, while they are all defending the wall, Ygritte and company come knocking at the front door.

Ygitte and Co climbed the wall last season with Jon. They spent this season pillaging inside the wall. They were attacking the South Gate, while Mace's army was attacking the North side of the Wall.

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Can someone explain to me the logistics of the wall/castle black? I thought that the wildlings were north of the wall and they had to climb the wall to get to Castle Black. Yet, while they are all defending the wall, Ygritte and company come knocking at the front door.

Ygitte and Co climbed the wall last season with Jon. They spent this season pillaging inside the wall. They were attacking the South Gate, while Mace's army was attacking the North side of the Wall.

Thanks.

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Here's what I get about big melees like this...how do people not constantly bump and stumble into each other? And if you're a Wildling, aren't you just going around blind-siding people when they're fighting with someone else? Like all the time? Seems like the best way to go, just stick and move. That seems to be a good strategy, just hold your guy off long enough and let a few designated guys come around sticking everybody in the back.

And when the dudes on top of the wall were shooting arrows down at the horde of bad guys below, how did they get hit with those arrows? Did they just watch them all the way in until they hit their chest? Wouldn't you move out of the way?

And if the 20 dudes who got over the wall and came in through the South gate were far more effective in killing Crows, shouldn't they have had more people just do that? That big group of dudes at the base of the MASSIVE ####### WALL is getting nothing done. They throw barrels on them like Donkey Kong, swing the big metal anchor at them, or shoot them with arrows that they watch for 10 seconds as they arc through the air until they hit their chest.

Even if like 80% of the guys who try to climb over the wall don't make it, that 20% is going to get more done coming in through the South gate than the guys with no chance. Even if they didn't have that big anchor thing, what do they think's going to happen when they get to the top of the wall? The Crows will just let them up? "Here, have some tea and warm up, then we'll get on with it."?

I've got questions, man.

The battle isn't over. Did you not hear what Jon Snow said at the end? This was basically a probe to test the Wall's defenses, and now Mance can adjust his strategy. Castle Black lost a ton of lives, and the Wildling army barely lost any (relative to their large numbers).

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Can someone explain to me the logistics of the wall/castle black? I thought that the wildlings were north of the wall and they had to climb the wall to get to Castle Black. Yet, while they are all defending the wall, Ygritte and company come knocking at the front door.

Not to be a Richard, but I don't get how someone can watch the show and not know this. Questions like these get me totally shuked.

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Can someone explain to me the logistics of the wall/castle black? I thought that the wildlings were north of the wall and they had to climb the wall to get to Castle Black. Yet, while they are all defending the wall, Ygritte and company come knocking at the front door.

Not to be a Richard, but I don't get how someone can watch the show and not know this. Questions like these get me totally shuked.

yeah, it was last season though.

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My question is, why did the guys on the top of the wall light their arrows on fire? It was dark outside. Wouldn't that just let them see they were coming? I'd rather have arrows quietly and invisibly piercing through the sky.

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My question is, why did the guys on the top of the wall light their arrows on fire? It was dark outside. Wouldn't that just let them see they were coming? I'd rather have arrows quietly and invisibly piercing through the sky.

Probably why you don't direct night scenes in the middle of a big battle.

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Great, movie quality episode. You just don't see battle scenes like that on any other TV show ever made.

I barely saw this battle scene. Once in awhile, how about a treat where everyone kills each other without the cover of darkness.

It sure did sound like a great episode though!

+1

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My question is, why did the guys on the top of the wall light their arrows on fire? It was dark outside. Wouldn't that just let them see they were coming? I'd rather have arrows quietly and invisibly piercing through the sky.

Probably why you don't direct night scenes in the middle of a big battle.
:lol:
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The southern wildlings break camp and run towards the castle gate. The camera pans up and it looks like they were camped pretty close. Too bad The Watch didn't have one guy looking south. He might have noticed the campfire right outside the gate!

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The southern wildlings break camp and run towards the castle gate. The camera pans up and it looks like they were camped pretty close. Too bad The Watch didn't have one guy looking south. He might have noticed the campfire right outside the gate!

Looked like they were in a little valley, and they had a tiny little campfire. Pretty sure the wildlings know how to remain unseen.

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The southern wildlings break camp and run towards the castle gate. The camera pans up and it looks like they were camped pretty close. Too bad The Watch didn't have one guy looking south. He might have noticed the campfire right outside the gate!

Looked like they were in a little valley, and they had a tiny little campfire. Pretty sure the wildlings know how to remain unseen.

Still, its not like the crows did not know about the wildlings south of the wall...

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For this episode I would give the Battle an 'A' and the emotional part maybe a 'C'.

Like others have said, I thought the battle was very well executed. One of the things that it did well was giving you an idea of the scope and locations of the battle. With brilliant use of the panning shots and tracking shots they gave you a great feel for the size of things - mammoths, wall, etc.. and made it easy to keep track of where people were in the battle. Not easy to show 3-4 different spots and have it easy to follow. I think most directors of summer blockbusters should be forced to sit down and watch this so the movies battles aren't just a blur of color. Some great kills and good use of misc. weapons - hammer and whatever that thing was they unleashed on those poor climbers. Gotta love the direwolf getting some action as well.

That said, I thought the emotional part fell flat. As others have stated in here, unlike the battle of Blackwater, I have very little emotional ties to the people involved in this. I was getting quite antsy at the start of the episode as we have to see Sam talk about love with Jon AND the maester. brutal. Then we have to have a couple scenes with Ygrette so they can set up a dilemma if he gets Jon in her sights again. I did get a chuckle out of Thorne being the supreme richard as usual though. I think somebody in the other thread said something about as soon as that kid was released and we saw him a couple times that he would be the one to take down Ygrette. it was eyerolling when i read it, and not that much better in the show. Hasn't it been about a season since her and Jon were together? Doesn't pack the punch it might have when they were together. As I was watching the scenes unfold, I thought they would ramp it up a little and having it a killing triangle between Sam, Jon, and her. Sam was also running around with a crossbow after his buddy got it in the neck, I thought that it would be cool to have Sam take her out as she stalks Jon (maybe not knowing until afterwards who she was) or the opposite, make Jon do the deed as she threatens Sam's life.

Anyway, very good episode that had me tense during the battle. Maybe it's on purpose to have us care about the wall about as much as the rest of Westeros does, but I don't think many care about the players involved up there enough to have this stand out as one of the best episodes of the series.

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One thing I gotta disagree with what Sepinwall mentioned above. I think Jon Snow is an awesome character. I love him. One of the few true heroes this show has and theres nothing wrong with Kit Harrington's acting. Im a big fan.

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Here's what I get about big melees like this...how do people not constantly bump and stumble into each other? And if you're a Wildling, aren't you just going around blind-siding people when they're fighting with someone else? Like all the time? Seems like the best way to go, just stick and move. That seems to be a good strategy, just hold your guy off long enough and let a few designated guys come around sticking everybody in the back.

And when the dudes on top of the wall were shooting arrows down at the horde of bad guys below, how did they get hit with those arrows? Did they just watch them all the way in until they hit their chest? Wouldn't you move out of the way?

And if the 20 dudes who got over the wall and came in through the South gate were far more effective in killing Crows, shouldn't they have had more people just do that? That big group of dudes at the base of the MASSIVE ####### WALL is getting nothing done. They throw barrels on them like Donkey Kong, swing the big metal anchor at them, or shoot them with arrows that they watch for 10 seconds as they arc through the air until they hit their chest.

Even if like 80% of the guys who try to climb over the wall don't make it, that 20% is going to get more done coming in through the South gate than the guys with no chance. Even if they didn't have that big anchor thing, what do they think's going to happen when they get to the top of the wall? The Crows will just let them up? "Here, have some tea and warm up, then we'll get on with it."?

I've got questions, man.

Or my favorite of these types of scenes: always the 2 of the best fighters meet in the middle of the big melee (Jon vs. cannibal) and nobody else seems to want to get up behind them and take out the other teams best guy? Always find that amusing, but hey - it's just a TV show/movie.

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My question is, why did the guys on the top of the wall light their arrows on fire? It was dark outside. Wouldn't that just let them see they were coming? I'd rather have arrows quietly and invisibly piercing through the sky.

because the director told them to

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My question is, why did the guys on the top of the wall light their arrows on fire? It was dark outside. Wouldn't that just let them see they were coming? I'd rather have arrows quietly and invisibly piercing through the sky.

They're like tracer bullets. They light them to judge where their arrows are going to set up their next shot.

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One thing I gotta disagree with what Sepinwall mentioned above. I think Jon Snow is an awesome character. I love him. One of the few true heroes this show has and theres nothing wrong with Kit Harrington's acting. Im a big fan.

I think he is a good character and probably the only true good guy we have in the show since Ned. I just don't think they did enough with him this season. Not sure exactly what else they can do with him up there, but after following his arc quite a bit previously as he was with the Wildlings, he hasn't done a whole lot since getting back to Castle Black. He and Maester Aemon are about the only two I like seeing from this location.

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Points of note:

1. so glad they didn't have Sam take out Ygritte with the crossbow.

2. those giants were awesome. Liked how the one giant got super pissed off when his dad(?) got skewered.

3. Manse isn't exactly a tactical genious. Crawling up the wall worked great for that first group of people. We've got some more wall climbers. How about we wait until the big fight and have the rest of the wall climbers climb the humongous wall right underneath the castle instead of sending them over prior to the attack and attack along the wall or reinforce the existing wall climbers.

4. I thought there were only slightly more than 100 defenders at Castle Black. Sure seemed like alot more: between the number of guys killed, number left over on the ground and guys shooting the arrows

5. why did it take so long for them to brop barrels of oil on the giants/mammoth? worked great once they decided to get it in gear.

6. also thought that Sam's gf was going to be sexually assaulted by the guy running away. Either that of find the guy with a knife in his chest. Needed some action there.

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One thing I gotta disagree with what Sepinwall mentioned above. I think Jon Snow is an awesome character. I love him. One of the few true heroes this show has and theres nothing wrong with Kit Harrington's acting. Im a big fan.

I think he is a good character and probably the only true good guy we have in the show since Ned. I just don't think they did enough with him this season. Not sure exactly what else they can do with him up there, but after following his arc quite a bit previously as he was with the Wildlings, he hasn't done a whole lot since getting back to Castle Black. He and Maester Aemon are about the only two I like seeing from this location.

The character may have alot of potential, but the actor isn't exactly contributing all that much toward character development or establishing much in the way of desire for the audience to want him to succeed. At least to me he seems rather like a dirty hand towel that has limited use.

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I think one of the things that gets lost in the show is simply how much #### is going on everywhere. There are so many characters, plots, and sub-plots, that it is very difficult to give them all enough screen time without slowing the pace of the entire story to a crawl. So when you don't feel a connection to a character, its as much a fault of the expanse of the story as it is of the director(s).

Each character's story sort of ebbs and flows, and I think the show does a good job of keeping each line moving enough that you don't completely forget the character and where they fit into the overall story.

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The southern wildlings break camp and run towards the castle gate. The camera pans up and it looks like they were camped pretty close. Too bad The Watch didn't have one guy looking south. He might have noticed the campfire right outside the gate!

Looked like they were in a little valley, and they had a tiny little campfire. Pretty sure the wildlings know how to remain unseen.
True. But, from the perspective of the overhead shot they weren't that well hidden.

It doesn't matter, just a thought when I saw the scene.

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Points of note:

1. so glad they didn't have Sam take out Ygritte with the crossbow.

2. those giants were awesome. Liked how the one giant got super pissed off when his dad(?) got skewered.

3. Manse isn't exactly a tactical genious. Crawling up the wall worked great for that first group of people. We've got some more wall climbers. How about we wait until the big fight and have the rest of the wall climbers climb the humongous wall right underneath the castle instead of sending them over prior to the attack and attack along the wall or reinforce the existing wall climbers.

4. I thought there were only slightly more than 100 defenders at Castle Black. Sure seemed like alot more: between the number of guys killed, number left over on the ground and guys shooting the arrows

5. why did it take so long for them to brop barrels of oil on the giants/mammoth? worked great once they decided to get it in gear.

6. also thought that Sam's gf was going to be sexually assaulted by the guy running away. Either that of find the guy with a knife in his chest. Needed some action there.

we disagree on #1 I guess. needed more emotion than random kid #2 taking her out.

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Points of note:

1. so glad they didn't have Sam take out Ygritte with the crossbow.

2. those giants were awesome. Liked how the one giant got super pissed off when his dad(?) got skewered.

3. Manse isn't exactly a tactical genious. Crawling up the wall worked great for that first group of people. We've got some more wall climbers. How about we wait until the big fight and have the rest of the wall climbers climb the humongous wall right underneath the castle instead of sending them over prior to the attack and attack along the wall or reinforce the existing wall climbers.

4. I thought there were only slightly more than 100 defenders at Castle Black. Sure seemed like alot more: between the number of guys killed, number left over on the ground and guys shooting the arrows

5. why did it take so long for them to brop barrels of oil on the giants/mammoth? worked great once they decided to get it in gear.

6. also thought that Sam's gf was going to be sexually assaulted by the guy running away. Either that of find the guy with a knife in his chest. Needed some action there.

we disagree on #1 I guess. needed more emotion than random kid #2 taking her out.

Wire spoiler:

Reminded me of when Omar got killed

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My one complaint was that the morning after was kinda anti-climatic.

The Nights Watch took out like 1% of the wildling army (if that) and it probably cost them 1/2 their defending force (including their acting commander). Not much of a victory considering they spent an entire episode on it. (and 3 years of build up)

Before this episode, the Nights Watch was shown as nothing but a cowardly, unorganized, and inadaptive group of misfits. The wildlings were shown to be fierce, skilled, and (unlike the rest of history) organized. Most of the crows in charge also didn't trust Jon Snow and were set in their ways despite any warnings/signs otherwise. This episode developed the characters of literally every member of the Wall, the minor characters had their time to shine, Ygritt story was concluded, and even that acting commander admitted he was wrong and gave insight to why he's such a jackass. They would never win an all-out attack, and the wildlings thought they were much more in number so they didn't go all out for fear of much greater losses. This wasn't going to be a one-episode conclusion of the wildling invasion, but it set up a direction and a goal at the end of the episode while showing that the crows can indeed rise to the purpose of their vows and in the face of adversity those who may not generally like each other can fight together for the greater good/purpose.

Sounds like a book answer. :fishy:

Never read any of the books and just started watching this series this week. I finally got caught up via HBO Go last night and this was the first episode I saw with everyone else and coincidentally, my first post in this thread. :thumbup:

This reminds me of the guy in the Monty Python sketch about elections that keeps popping in to tell everyone that it's his ______ time on television.

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My question is, why did the guys on the top of the wall light their arrows on fire? It was dark outside. Wouldn't that just let them see they were coming? I'd rather have arrows quietly and invisibly piercing through the sky.

They're like tracer bullets. They light them to judge where their arrows are going to set up their next shot.

You really think they're aiming that closely from on top a 700 foot ice wall with the wind and frigid cold whipping around? Errrr....okay.

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My question is, why did the guys on the top of the wall light their arrows on fire? It was dark outside. Wouldn't that just let them see they were coming? I'd rather have arrows quietly and invisibly piercing through the sky.

They're like tracer bullets. They light them to judge where their arrows are going to set up their next shot.

And I think people seem to be overestimating how easy it'd be to avoid a flying f###ing arrow.

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My question is, why did the guys on the top of the wall light their arrows on fire? It was dark outside. Wouldn't that just let them see they were coming? I'd rather have arrows quietly and invisibly piercing through the sky.

They're like tracer bullets. They light them to judge where their arrows are going to set up their next shot.

And I think people seem to be overestimating how easy it'd be to avoid a flying f###ing arrow.

These are the same people who don't wear a seatbelt and are convinced that in an accident they'll just put their hands on the dashboard and stop any forward momentum.

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My question is, why did the guys on the top of the wall light their arrows on fire? It was dark outside. Wouldn't that just let them see they were coming? I'd rather have arrows quietly and invisibly piercing through the sky.

They're like tracer bullets. They light them to judge where their arrows are going to set up their next shot.

You really think they're aiming that closely from on top a 700 foot ice wall with the wind and frigid cold whipping around? Errrr....okay.

To be honest, I was scratching my head about the fire arrows too. I'm sticking with the tracer concept because the only other thing I can think of is they wanted to light all the attackers fire (with them all wearing bear pelts and all). That's even more far-fetched than the tracer option.

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Points of note:

1. so glad they didn't have Sam take out Ygritte with the crossbow.

2. those giants were awesome. Liked how the one giant got super pissed off when his dad(?) got skewered.

3. Manse isn't exactly a tactical genious. Crawling up the wall worked great for that first group of people. We've got some more wall climbers. How about we wait until the big fight and have the rest of the wall climbers climb the humongous wall right underneath the castle instead of sending them over prior to the attack and attack along the wall or reinforce the existing wall climbers.

4. I thought there were only slightly more than 100 defenders at Castle Black. Sure seemed like alot more: between the number of guys killed, number left over on the ground and guys shooting the arrows

5. why did it take so long for them to brop barrels of oil on the giants/mammoth? worked great once they decided to get it in gear.

6. also thought that Sam's gf was going to be sexually assaulted by the guy running away. Either that of find the guy with a knife in his chest. Needed some action there.

we disagree on #1 I guess. needed more emotion than random kid #2 taking her out.

But Sam? They make him out as the type of guy who can't even tie his own shoelace. They could have pulled alot more emotion out of that scene than they did. They didn't need Sam pulling the trigger.

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So is John Snow going beyond the wall to try and kill Mance Radernation? Why wouldn't he take his sword? Maybe he is going to try and convince them he is still a Wild Thing.

Should've had him walk out of the tunnel with Rick Vaughn's entrance music IMO.

If you're a "wildling" and you haven't sworn an oath to anyone, can't you just hang back and see how the whole "Take down the impenetrable wall" thing works out? Hedge your bets?

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My question is, why did the guys on the top of the wall light their arrows on fire? It was dark outside. Wouldn't that just let them see they were coming? I'd rather have arrows quietly and invisibly piercing through the sky.

They're like tracer bullets. They light them to judge where their arrows are going to set up their next shot.

And I think people seem to be overestimating how easy it'd be to avoid a flying f###ing arrow.

These are the same people who don't wear a seatbelt and are convinced that in an accident they'll just put their hands on the dashboard and stop any forward momentum.

Probably the same people that think 5 million earned is more than 5 million won...

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Points of note:

1. so glad they didn't have Sam take out Ygritte with the crossbow.

2. those giants were awesome. Liked how the one giant got super pissed off when his dad(?) got skewered.

3. Manse isn't exactly a tactical genious. Crawling up the wall worked great for that first group of people. We've got some more wall climbers. How about we wait until the big fight and have the rest of the wall climbers climb the humongous wall right underneath the castle instead of sending them over prior to the attack and attack along the wall or reinforce the existing wall climbers.

4. I thought there were only slightly more than 100 defenders at Castle Black. Sure seemed like alot more: between the number of guys killed, number left over on the ground and guys shooting the arrows

5. why did it take so long for them to brop barrels of oil on the giants/mammoth? worked great once they decided to get it in gear.

6. also thought that Sam's gf was going to be sexually assaulted by the guy running away. Either that of find the guy with a knife in his chest. Needed some action there.

we disagree on #1 I guess. needed more emotion than random kid #2 taking her out.

Wire spoiler:

Reminded me of when Omar got killed

On that wire spoiler, don't google his name and go to the wiki. People around here will flip their ####.

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My question is, why did the guys on the top of the wall light their arrows on fire? It was dark outside. Wouldn't that just let them see they were coming? I'd rather have arrows quietly and invisibly piercing through the sky.

If you the enemy can't see the arrows, neither can the people shooting them. How do you know if you are hitting the target?

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Thought it was a little underwhelming. I realize that budget limitations forced them to not show the bulk of the 100,000 army.....but with the Wildling party that attacked from the south making a real dent in the Night's Watch forces ( I'm sure the budget limitations made it so the attack from the south had to be the more precarious one storywise)....it makes Mance Rayder kind of look like a jabroni military tactician.

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Points of note:

1. so glad they didn't have Sam take out Ygritte with the crossbow.

2. those giants were awesome. Liked how the one giant got super pissed off when his dad(?) got skewered.

3. Manse isn't exactly a tactical genious. Crawling up the wall worked great for that first group of people. We've got some more wall climbers. How about we wait until the big fight and have the rest of the wall climbers climb the humongous wall right underneath the castle instead of sending them over prior to the attack and attack along the wall or reinforce the existing wall climbers.

4. I thought there were only slightly more than 100 defenders at Castle Black. Sure seemed like alot more: between the number of guys killed, number left over on the ground and guys shooting the arrows

5. why did it take so long for them to brop barrels of oil on the giants/mammoth? worked great once they decided to get it in gear.

6. also thought that Sam's gf was going to be sexually assaulted by the guy running away. Either that of find the guy with a knife in his chest. Needed some action there.

we disagree on #1 I guess. needed more emotion than random kid #2 taking her out.

Wire spoiler:

Reminded me of when Omar got killed

On that wire spoiler, don't google his name and go to the wiki. People around here will flip their ####.

People would flip their #### that I put a spoiler in a spoiler box?

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Points of note:

1. so glad they didn't have Sam take out Ygritte with the crossbow.

2. those giants were awesome. Liked how the one giant got super pissed off when his dad(?) got skewered.

3. Manse isn't exactly a tactical genious. Crawling up the wall worked great for that first group of people. We've got some more wall climbers. How about we wait until the big fight and have the rest of the wall climbers climb the humongous wall right underneath the castle instead of sending them over prior to the attack and attack along the wall or reinforce the existing wall climbers.

4. I thought there were only slightly more than 100 defenders at Castle Black. Sure seemed like alot more: between the number of guys killed, number left over on the ground and guys shooting the arrows

5. why did it take so long for them to brop barrels of oil on the giants/mammoth? worked great once they decided to get it in gear.

6. also thought that Sam's gf was going to be sexually assaulted by the guy running away. Either that of find the guy with a knife in his chest. Needed some action there.

we disagree on #1 I guess. needed more emotion than random kid #2 taking her out.

Wire spoiler:

Reminded me of when Omar got killed

On that wire spoiler, don't google his name and go to the wiki. People around here will flip their ####.

People would flip their #### that I put a spoiler in a spoiler box?

I was just making a joke - check my post from a few pages back.

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