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Alright. I figure this is as good of a place to do this as any. I've been on the Brady and Patriot hate train for a very long time. What we saw last night was the poise of a legendary QB and coach,

I heart BB when he talks X's and O's. Just heard radio interview with Hoodie and morphed into 15 minute discussion on Randy Moss. Said Moss is the smartest receiver he's ever seen.  Mentioned tha

Yeah, well he literally tried to **** our daughter, so he's not as high on my list as yours.

Quote

Sports Illustrated's Albert Breer reports Patriots head coach Bill Belichick ignored team scouts who wanted to draft A.J. Brown and Deebo Samuel over N'Keal Harry in the 2019 NFL Draft. 

The revelation comes a week after Patriots owner Bob Kraft criticized the team's draft results. Belichick reportedly ignored his personnel department and went with Harry as the 32nd pick based on Harry’s performance during a non-workout visit and Belichick’s relationship with Harry’s college coach, Todd Graham. The rest is history: Harry has been a non-entity in the New England offense -- catching 45 passes for 414 yards in two seasons -- while Brown is among the league's most explosive wideouts and Samuel is an electric after-the-catch weapon and a staple of the 49ers offense. Breer said Kraft’s recent reference to a “different approach” to the NFL Draft indicates Belichick is now listening more to his personnel department. 

RELATED: 

A.J. Brown

, Deebo Samuel

SOURCE: ProFootballTalk.com 

Apr 6, 2021, 9:10 AM ET

 

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Apparently both the Falcons at 4 and the Lions at 7 have said they are open for business and would trade out of their picks. NE has the opportunity to move up to snag a QB . . . the question is whether they like anyone enough to do it.

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2 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

Apparently both the Falcons at 4 and the Lions at 7 have said they are open for business and would trade out of their picks. NE has the opportunity to move up to snag a QB . . . the question is whether they like anyone enough to do it.

The Falcons is a deal you can make now if you want but Detroit would have to be a draft-day deal as you could potentially miss out on the big 5 and you would have to also like all 5 to make that deal...I hope they rip the band-aid off and deal for #4 or get Jimmy G...if not you will be playing this exact same game next season in a year where right now the rookies don't look as deep and their doesn't seem to be many veteran options.

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I'd be fine if they trade up on draft day to get their QB or Parsons. Either would work for me. Parsons feels like more of a sure thing to me though.

I like Jimmy G, but wouldn't want to invest a lot in a guy who misses so many games. 

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5 hours ago, Boston said:

The Falcons is a deal you can make now if you want but Detroit would have to be a draft-day deal as you could potentially miss out on the big 5 and you would have to also like all 5 to make that deal...I hope they rip the band-aid off and deal for #4 or get Jimmy G...if not you will be playing this exact same game next season in a year where right now the rookies don't look as deep and their doesn't seem to be many veteran options.

Not to beat a dead horse, but between their reported cap space, what they have to allocate for Chung retiring, and cap space for rookies, the Patriots only have about $5 million in cap space left. That effectively rules out trading for the Garoppolo's and Bridgewater's of the world unless they rework their deals with their current teams. And by doing so, they would most likely be costing themselves money and racking up multi-million-dollar cap hits on the teams they would be leaving, so neither one of those makes sense on that side of the deal. Logistically, the best way for them to bring in a veteran would be after someone is released. And it's very unlikely Garoppolo / Bridgewater / Ryan would even be flat out cut.

Sadly, inside the building I think enough people think they could make thinks work with Cam that they may just roll the dice with Newton rather than give a huge package to move up. Instead, they probably will take one of the leftovers in the draft in the second round and see if they can develop someone.

Personally, I would much rather they didn't sign Judon and allocated that money to bring in a veteran QB. But we are where we are and they will have to work within the limitations they brought upon themselves.

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1 hour ago, Anarchy99 said:

Not to beat a dead horse, but between their reported cap space, what they have to allocate for Chung retiring, and cap space for rookies, the Patriots only have about $5 million in cap space left. That effectively rules out trading for the Garoppolo's and Bridgewater's of the world unless they rework their deals with their current teams. And by doing so, they would most likely be costing themselves money and racking up multi-million-dollar cap hits on the teams they would be leaving, so neither one of those makes sense on that side of the deal. Logistically, the best way for them to bring in a veteran would be after someone is released. And it's very unlikely Garoppolo / Bridgewater / Ryan would even be flat out cut.

Sadly, inside the building I think enough people think they could make thinks work with Cam that they may just roll the dice with Newton rather than give a huge package to move up. Instead, they probably will take one of the leftovers in the draft in the second round and see if they can develop someone.

Personally, I would much rather they didn't sign Judon and allocated that money to bring in a veteran QB. But we are where we are and they will have to work within the limitations they brought upon themselves.

Gotta believe if it means solving their QB issue they can carve out some space...that being said if they don't want to obtain a vet because of that or don't want to trade up than this season already has a cap on it and they will still be held hostage by the QB position going forward...and if they honestly think Cam can be the answer after watching him last year than this franchise is in danger of floating into that mediocre world as no amount of beefing up other positions will help you overcome incompetent QB play. 

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50 minutes ago, Boston said:

Gotta believe if it means solving their QB issue they can carve out some space...that being said if they don't want to obtain a vet because of that or don't want to trade up than this season already has a cap on it and they will still be held hostage by the QB position going forward...and if they honestly think Cam can be the answer after watching him last year than this franchise is in danger of floating into that mediocre world as no amount of beefing up other positions will help you overcome incompetent QB play. 

I generally survey lots of different places and sources to gather information (radio, TV, Twitter, podcasts, YouTube, etc.). There are enough people out there that I put some stock into that hear that NE is ready to roll with Cam if need be and that even with him at QB they will be a playoff team. Essentially, with a regular offseason, way more practice time, no COVID to deal with, upgraded weapons, and a better mastery of the playbook . . . Cam would at least be an average starter and the infusion of new players is enough to have them competitive week to week. I get it, that's not your position and I would lean more your way than the other.

The media overall does a lousy job of providing opinions and perspective when it comes to salary cap management. I truly believe that most of them have no clue how the cap works or doesn't work, and if it were up to them they would have the Patriots spending $300M a year.

As far as creative ways to manipulate the salary cap, they certainly can try to do that with guys already on their roster, but they can't control that for players on another team's roster. As already mentioned, they are almost out of cap space for 2021. But they are almost out of cap space for 2022 as well. They have 38 players signed into next year that add up to $174M against a projected cap of $192M. Basically, they have to add 13 more players against the cap (Top 51 contract count) for next year with $18M of room to work with. (Of course they can rework deals to help get there.) And some guys will probably hit incentives that will go against the cap next season as well.

NE hasn't done what other teams have done (ie, adding voidable dummy years to lower the cap hit for this season), so I suppose they could begin to start doing that to stretch their cap dollars. This year, they have 4 players with cap hits over $9M . . .

Gilmore $16.2M
Hightower $12.4M
McCourty $11.1M
Mason $9.5M

We all know Gilmore isn't taking a pay cut, so to reduce his number they need to extend him. If they trade him, they would eat $7.6M against the cap but would net a cap savings of $8.5M for this year. They could save $10M against the cap (while eating $2.5M in dead cap money) to move on from Hightower. They stand a better chance of asking Hightower to take a haircut than Gilmore. McCourty is a much bigger problem, as they would lose more cap dollars by moving on from him than they would gain (so he is a non-starter for mining extra cap room). Mason is signed through 2023, so they could reclaim some cap space by converting his salary into a signing bonus and kick the cap hit down the road.

I am not hearing good things about Edelman, and he likely won't be healthy enough to play until well into the season. He should probably retire as his body is held together with duct tape at this point. They would gain $3.4M in cap space if he were off their roster. Even if he stayed, he would probably be more of a coach and a mentor than a contributing player. In other injury news, there are multiple videos of Burkhead out there showing his progress. He was really productive prior to getting hurt last year. I know he gets hurt a lot be he has been productive when he plays. Worth it if the price is right.

But long story short, there isn't a clear and easy path to freeing enough money to get to $25M in cap space to bring in Jimmy G. (or $18M for Bridgewater). Sure, if they don't want Gilmore and Hightower that would be a decent start (but that would only get them partway there). They would have to make multiple moves to get there. If they start announcing a bunch of moves and extensions, that would be a first sign indicator that is the direction they are going in.

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C Dustin Woodward, who was a late round pick last year but retired from football, apparently has changed his mind and been added to the active roster. Several folks felt he was going to be another late round find at the time, so he might be another OL depth piece. 

In other news, with RB Gio Bernard getting released by the Bengals, the Pats will likely talk to to him. 

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30 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

C Dustin Woodward, who was a late round pick last year but retired from football, apparently has changed his mind and been added to the active roster. Several folks felt he was going to be another late round find at the time, so he might be another OL depth piece. 

In other news, with RB Gio Bernard getting released by the Bengals, the Pats will likely talk to to him. 

Game changers. 

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15 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

I generally survey lots of different places and sources to gather information (radio, TV, Twitter, podcasts, YouTube, etc.). There are enough people out there that I put some stock into that hear that NE is ready to roll with Cam if need be and that even with him at QB they will be a playoff team. Essentially, with a regular offseason, way more practice time, no COVID to deal with, upgraded weapons, and a better mastery of the playbook . . . Cam would at least be an average starter and the infusion of new players is enough to have them competitive week to week. I get it, that's not your position and I would lean more your way than the other.

Sorry if this has been covered previously, but is Alex Smith an option?  Or is he believed to be past his expiration date?  Or will he require $25MM in addition to a guarantee to start?

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24 minutes ago, SeniorVBDStudent said:

Sorry if this has been covered previously, but is Alex Smith an option?  Or is he believed to be past his expiration date?  Or will he require $25MM in addition to a guarantee to start?

I don’t think Smith is looking for $25M, but he is telling teams he is not interested in being a backup and essentially only wants to be a starter. The only team he was linked to was the Texans. I have not seen him discussed as an option for NE. If they did bring him in, who would be the long term solution?

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On 4/5/2021 at 11:08 PM, Anarchy99 said:

In 2022. What changed for 2021?

Given the Jets recent track record in the 2nd round, Carolina may have actually made them weaker. In the last decade, they've taken Denzel Mims, Christian Hackenberg, Devin Smith, Jace Amaro, Geno Smith, Stephen Hill, and Vladimir Ducasse in the second round. That rivals the Patriots ineptitude of 2nd round draft picks.

Different GM, so irrelevant.

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6 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

Different GM, so irrelevant.

My opinion of the draft is every pick is essentially a crap shoot. While those second round picks by the Jets were less than stellar, NE's in the same time were actually worse. Some of their 2nd round picks included: Joejuan Williams, Duke Dawson, Cyrus Jones, Jordan Richards, Aaron Dobson, Tavon Wilson, and Ras-I Dowling. They almost cornered the market on second round defensive backs that collectively amounted to very little. They did take Garoppolo, but he played in 2 games for NE. There's not much to discuss about the Patriots recent drafting record in the early rounds . . . they have mostly been wasted picks. Luckily for them, they seem to fare much better with late round picks and UDFA's.

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3 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

My opinion of the draft is every pick is essentially a crap shoot. While those second round picks by the Jets were less than stellar, NE's in the same time were actually worse. Some of their 2nd round picks included: Joejuan Williams, Duke Dawson, Cyrus Jones, Jordan Richards, Aaron Dobson, Tavon Wilson, and Ras-I Dowling. They almost cornered the market on second round defensive backs that collectively amounted to very little. They did take Garoppolo, but he played in 2 games for NE. There's not much to discuss about the Patriots recent drafting record in the early rounds . . . they have mostly been wasted picks. Luckily for them, they seem to fare much better with late round picks and UDFA's.

So teams should just not bother trading for second round picks?

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19 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

My opinion of the draft is every pick is essentially a crap shoot. While those second round picks by the Jets were less than stellar, NE's in the same time were actually worse. Some of their 2nd round picks included: Joejuan Williams, Duke Dawson, Cyrus Jones, Jordan Richards, Aaron Dobson, Tavon Wilson, and Ras-I Dowling. They almost cornered the market on second round defensive backs that collectively amounted to very little. They did take Garoppolo, but he played in 2 games for NE. There's not much to discuss about the Patriots recent drafting record in the early rounds . . . they have mostly been wasted picks. Luckily for them, they seem to fare much better with late round picks and UDFA's.

I agree for the bulk of them. However, I did think Dugger looked good last season. Played with aggression and good hitting. 

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1 minute ago, Dr. Octopus said:

So teams should just not bother trading for second round picks?

Teams should be less concerned about giving up picks for either players or to move up in the draft . . . especially teams that have late first round picks.

For example, some folks in the NE sports media are saying it's too much of an investment to move up to #4 to take a QB if they had to give up what SF did (a pick swap, two future first rounders, and a 3rd round compensatory pick). In NE's case, the last three #1 picks they used were on N'Keal Harry, Isaiah Wynn, and Sony Michel and the last third round comp pick they used was on Yodny Cajuste. All of New England would gladly give up those guys to get a franchise QB to play at Gillette for 10+ years,

I get it. No one knows who will pan out and who will flame out. Yes, teams would rather have a 2nd round pick for a guy they weren't going to play anyway. But since two of the picks for Darnold are in the future, value wise they get downgraded a round in terms of trade value. So the Jets essentially traded Darnold for 3rd, 5th, and 6th round picks. Again, good on them they got something for nothing (or an unusable asset). However, when you consider they invested the 3rd overall pick in Darnold and that's all they got back in return, it should be considered a huge failure overall. Based on the pick value chart, the #3 pick is worth 2200 points. the three picks they got back are worth around 150 points combined. So they got about 7 cents on the dollar of their initial investment in clearing out Darnold.

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23 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

My opinion of the draft is every pick is essentially a crap shoot. While those second round picks by the Jets were less than stellar, NE's in the same time were actually worse. Some of their 2nd round picks included: Joejuan Williams, Duke Dawson, Cyrus Jones, Jordan Richards, Aaron Dobson, Tavon Wilson, and Ras-I Dowling. They almost cornered the market on second round defensive backs that collectively amounted to very little. They did take Garoppolo, but he played in 2 games for NE. There's not much to discuss about the Patriots recent drafting record in the early rounds . . . they have mostly been wasted picks. Luckily for them, they seem to fare much better with late round picks and UDFA's.

I think Jets are even worse in the first round. I saw a stat the other day way every 1st rounder was either cut or traded away for the last ten seasons. 

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1 minute ago, Blackbear said:

I think Jets are even worse in the first round. I saw a stat the other day way every 1st rounder was either cut or traded away for the last ten seasons. 

Cutting players is bad. But trading players can be good. The Jets traded away three former first round picks. They got back 2 firsts, a second, 2 thirds, a fourth, a fifth, and a sixth in return. Maybe they will turn those picks into long-term starters. No one knows how that will turn out. You are right that the optics of investing first round picks and then having to trade them is a bad look. But they may end up better off . . . way too soon to tell. Again, if those picks were due for big money and they didn't want to pay them, that certainly muddies the waters some.

It's really hard to tell how trades work out. The Pats traded picks 32 and 72 for Brandin Cooks and pick 118. They played Cooks for a year and went to the SB, then traded him and pick 136 for picks 23 and 198. So they got back a better first round pick than they gave up for him. But the media will be quick to point out they blew a first round pick on Cooks and he only played for a year . . . what a waste! They always leave out the rest of it (the pick they used got them Isaiah Wynn). I heard the Cooks was a disaster story 2 or 3 times again this week on the radio when they went over the Pats deplorable use of draft picks in recent drafts.

 

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59 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

Cutting players is bad. But trading players can be good. The Jets traded away three former first round picks. They got back 2 firsts, a second, 2 thirds, a fourth, a fifth, and a sixth in return. Maybe they will turn those picks into long-term starters. No one knows how that will turn out. You are right that the optics of investing first round picks and then having to trade them is a bad look. But they may end up better off . . . way too soon to tell. Again, if those picks were due for big money and they didn't want to pay them, that certainly muddies the waters some.

It's really hard to tell how trades work out. The Pats traded picks 32 and 72 for Brandin Cooks and pick 118. They played Cooks for a year and went to the SB, then traded him and pick 136 for picks 23 and 198. So they got back a better first round pick than they gave up for him. But the media will be quick to point out they blew a first round pick on Cooks and he only played for a year . . . what a waste! They always leave out the rest of it (the pick they used got them Isaiah Wynn). I heard the Cooks was a disaster story 2 or 3 times again this week on the radio when they went over the Pats deplorable use of draft picks in recent drafts.

 

Here is the stats I was mentioning... https://youtu.be/sH9PcPsRCF0

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I have seen several places suggesting NE needs to acquire Teddy Bridgewater. The issue for both the Panthers and the Patriots with regard to Bridgewater is $10M of his salary this year is already guaranteed. So the chances of him giving that up are slim. The Panthers are ultimately going to eat a $20M cap hit by releasing him or trading him on his current deal. Bridgewater would be a fool to give up any of that.

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Texas A&M QB Kellen Mond said that the New England Patriots have been in contact with him throughout the evaluating process.

The relationship between Mond and the Patriots started in earnest at the Senior Bowl, where team reps interviewed the signal-caller on his way to eventually being named game MVP. The 6-foot-3, 217-pound gunslinger indicated that he and Pats OC Josh McDaniels have been exchanging occasional texts throughout the process. If the Patriots are truly interested in Mond, he'll be in the Day 2 mix come the draft. New England has been widely speculated as a Day 1 player for quarterback at pick No. 15, but they are by no means locked into that one position. The team signed veteran Cam Newton to a one-year contract earlier this offseason, affording them the opportunity to develop a rookie such as Mond off the bench should they choose to move in that direction.

SOURCE: Boston Globe

Apr 8, 2021, 1:34 PM ET

 

 

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1 hour ago, Blackbear said:

Looking like Edelman is done. Sad, but his knee can’t take it. Wonder if they say hey keep your bonus but retire or we have to cut you. https://www.foxnews.com/sports/patriots-julian-edelman-unlikely-play-2021-season
 

If I get it right they would get back 3.4 million to the cap. Dead money is his guaranteed bonus of 2.8 million. 

Pretty much. If JE11 retires or is cut and designated as such after 6/1, NE will eat $2.67M in dead cap space but will net an extra $3.4M in cap space this year. 

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2 hours ago, Blackbear said:

Looking like Edelman is done. Sad, but his knee can’t take it. Wonder if they say hey keep your bonus but retire or we have to cut you. https://www.foxnews.com/sports/patriots-julian-edelman-unlikely-play-2021-season
 

If I get it right they would get back 3.4 million to the cap. Dead money is his guaranteed bonus of 2.8 million. 

Sad news as he was a special one but this is the best thing for him, his body and head does not need to take another hit.

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Saw an interesting interview blurb on NFL Network from Scott Pioli. He said NE usually calls potential draft picks as their pick is coming up to both express interest and to gain competitive intel. He mentioned the 2001 draft when the draft was already at Pick 46, he called Matt Light and asked if he had heard anything or if anyone had called him. Light said he was on hold with the Jets, who were eager to take him at Pick 49. The Patriots had Pick 50.  The Lions had Pick 48.

NE really wanted Light. In the span of minutes, Pioli informed BB. BB called the Lions. Bill asked what it would take to go from 50 to 48. The Lions said a 6th round pick. Done deal . . . NE traded Picks 50 and 173 for Pick 48 to snipe Light away from the Jets, who were left holding on the phone waiting to announce their selection of Light. The Jets had to pivot to LaMont Jordan instead.

The rest is history for Light . . . 155 GP, 20 playoff games, 5 SB appearances, and 3 rings.

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On 4/12/2021 at 5:09 PM, Bossman said:

Thanks for the Memories Jules... 

Certainly in my top 5 favorite Patriots of all time. 

lemme see....Vinatieri, Brady, Wilfork, Moss, Welker, Harrison, McGinnis, Troy Brown, Kevin Faulk, Edelman...in no particular order....Harrison and Faulk are probably my top 2...and Vinatieri and Brady are in the top 5....after that I'm not sure how to order them...but Edelman is top 10.

my wife and I call him Aderol for the rage he always played with...cut from the same cloth as Steve Smith...on the field anyway.

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8 hours ago, SeniorVBDStudent said:

lemme see....Vinatieri, Brady, Wilfork, Moss, Welker, Harrison, McGinnis, Troy Brown, Kevin Faulk, Edelman...in no particular order....Harrison and Faulk are probably my top 2...and Vinatieri and Brady are in the top 5....after that I'm not sure how to order them...but Edelman is top 10.

my wife and I call him Aderol for the rage he always played with...cut from the same cloth as Steve Smith...on the field anyway.

I never actually made a list ... But at the top would be, in no particular order;

Brady, Edelman, Gronk, Welker, Troy Brown, Bruschi, Harrison, James White,

I'm not much of a jersey wearing guy but I do own an Edelman, Welker, Bruschi, Hightower, James White,...and an autographed Harrison.

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I think many Patriots fans would list JE11 as one of their all time favorites. For me, guys like him are hugely inspirational. In my favorites with the guys already mentioned plus, Hannah, Grogan, Morgan, Law & a few others. Can't say who is 1, 5, 15 etc. I just don't cut it that fine.

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On 4/8/2021 at 3:15 PM, Faust said:

I found it "interesting" that he touts how he nailed 3 picks from his list last year.

Those picks? Anfernee Jennings (who he had at 31), Kyle Dugger (who he had at 32) and Dalton Keene (who he had at 44 and did absolutely nothing).

Also, as a preface to his picks, he states, "Players likely to be selected before the Patriots picked are purposely left off."...and then he has players like Trey Lance, Patrick Surtain and Rashawn Slater in the list.

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I might be in the minority, but I always thought Edelman was a lesser version of Wes Welker. Yes, Edelman was tougher and probably more clutch. But Edelman many times dropped too many passes and multiple times botched easy passes that turned into Pick 6's. And Edelman was constantly hurt. So props for gutting it out at times, but IIRC he missed 55 games over his career . . . that's three and a half seasons worth of games. Welker averaged 80 receiving yards a game and had a 72.6% catch rate. Since becoming a starter, Edelman average 68 yards a game and had a 65.9% catch rate.

Even in the playoffs, both guys averaged 76 yards per game but Welker had a catch rate of 76.7% and Edelman was at 65.6%. But Edelman will be remembered for the circus catch against the Falcons, while Welker will be remembered for his drop against the Giants that could have sealed a win against the Giants and prompted the infamous my-husband-cannot-throw-and-catch-the-ball comment. (IMO, with a better throw that play is a TD and the Pats win that game as they would have taken a 9 point lead.)

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4 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

I might be in the minority, but I always thought Edelman was a lesser version of Wes Welker. Yes, Edelman was tougher and probably more clutch. But Edelman many times dropped too many passes and multiple times botched easy passes that turned into Pick 6's. And Edelman was constantly hurt. So props for gutting it out at times, but IIRC he missed 55 games over his career . . . that's three and a half seasons worth of games. Welker averaged 80 receiving yards a game and had a 72.6% catch rate. Since becoming a starter, Edelman average 68 yards a game and had a 65.9% catch rate.

Even in the playoffs, both guys averaged 76 yards per game but Welker had a catch rate of 76.7% and Edelman was at 65.6%. But Edelman will be remembered for the circus catch against the Falcons, while Welker will be remembered for his drop against the Giants that could have sealed a win against the Giants and prompted the infamous my-husband-cannot-throw-and-catch-the-ball comment. (IMO, with a better throw that play is a TD and the Pats win that game as they would have taken a 9 point lead.)

I also said the throw was bad.

There was no defender within 5 yards of Welker and Brady made it much harder than it should have been.

... and of I recall correctly, Welker could have caught it and fell down ...

As it would have given NE the win by means of a first down and victory formation to end the game. 

Welker was the original Edelman imo.

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31 minutes ago, Bossman said:

I also said the throw was bad.

There was no defender within 5 yards of Welker and Brady made it much harder than it should have been.

... and of I recall correctly, Welker could have caught it and fell down ...

As it would have given NE the win by means of a first down and victory formation to end the game. 

Welker was the original Edelman imo.

Troy Brown was the original Edelman.

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1 hour ago, Bossman said:

I also said the throw was bad.

There was no defender within 5 yards of Welker and Brady made it much harder than it should have been.

... and of I recall correctly, Welker could have caught it and fell down ...

As it would have given NE the win by means of a first down and victory formation to end the game. 

Welker was the original Edelman imo.

Yeah, funny how things and memories of situations change over time. In the video of the link I included, there is 4:00 on the clock once the play ended and the Giants had a timeout remaining. The narrative that NE could have simply kneeled down and won the game is totally not true. They were ahead by 2 points. A TD would most likely have iced it. Even a FG would have left them vulnerable and needing a defensive stop to win (albeit with less time on the clock).

Either way, Brady didn't exactly deliver that great of a pass. Welker was streaking full steam ahead. Brady was not under any pressure whatsoever. Welker had to slow down, wait for the ball to get there, the throw was behind him, and he had to turn and jump for the ball. I put that on Brady and it really was more an errant pass than a drop. Sure, Welker COULD have caught it, but it was not an easy catch (even though people say he was wide open and just plain dropped it). Hard to know for sure, but if Brady hit him in stride, my guess is that's a TD. Maybe safety Kenny Phillips could have caught him, but I think Welker had the sideline and angle to the pylon to get in the end zone.


Of course, the next play for the Giants was the circus catch by Mario Manningham and the Giants had 3:30 to score 3 points and NE was dead meat. Oddly enough, that was the last game Manningham played for the Giants. He went on to play two ho hum seasons with the 49ers. Going back to the first Giants win over NE, David Tyree (who had 4 receptions for the Giants that season) not only never played another game for the Giants, but he never caught another pass in the NFL.

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1 hour ago, Boston said:

Troy Brown was the original Edelman.

I've been meaning to ask a rhetorical question. You mentioned Troy Brown, who became the go to slot guy when BB took over in 2000. NE has gotten huge production out of the slot ever since, and the trio of Brown-Welker-Edelman were target and production hogs. The question I have been wanting to ask for awhile is why haven't other teams tried to implement a similar system and why haven't other slot receivers been able to put up huge numbers. Maybe there have been teams and receivers that I don't remember, but it seems like most WR production comes from outside receivers.

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8 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

I might be in the minority, but I always thought Edelman was a lesser version of Wes Welker. Yes, Edelman was tougher and probably more clutch. But Edelman many times dropped too many passes and multiple times botched easy passes that turned into Pick 6's. And Edelman was constantly hurt. So props for gutting it out at times, but IIRC he missed 55 games over his career . . . that's three and a half seasons worth of games. Welker averaged 80 receiving yards a game and had a 72.6% catch rate. Since becoming a starter, Edelman average 68 yards a game and had a 65.9% catch rate.

Even in the playoffs, both guys averaged 76 yards per game but Welker had a catch rate of 76.7% and Edelman was at 65.6%. But Edelman will be remembered for the circus catch against the Falcons, while Welker will be remembered for his drop against the Giants that could have sealed a win against the Giants and prompted the infamous my-husband-cannot-throw-and-catch-the-ball comment. (IMO, with a better throw that play is a TD and the Pats win that game as they would have taken a 9 point lead.)

With all due respect to you and Bossman I couldn't disagree more, where exactly could Brady have thrown it that would have been an obvious td? To Welkers right is a closing safety and if he leads Welker that way Welker could have been blown up or the safety intercepts it. The defender to the left is beaten and has no play on the ball, Welker gets BOTH palms on the ball and drops it. A perfect pass no, a good pass yes and a catch that good receivers make 9 times out of ten yes.

I think Brady put it pretty much right where he wanted and the receiver got both hands on the ball and dropped it. I loved Welker but you can't take the brutal punishment he did and not have side affects and if you watch Welker toward the end of his career, his difficulty catching balls above his head was one of those side affects imho. Great players make that catch, hell good players make that catch but he came up small at the biggest moment and that more than anything else is why he never won a SB and Edelman coming up big in the biggest moments was able to win 3.

Edited by NE_REVIVAL
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22 minutes ago, NE_REVIVAL said:

With all due respect to you and Bossman I couldn't disagree more, where exactly could Brady have thrown it that would have been an obvious td? To Welkers right is a closing safety and if he leads Welker that way Welker could have been blown up or the safety intercepts it. The defender to the left is beaten and has no play on the ball, Welker gets BOTH palms on the ball and drops it. A perfect pass no, a good pass yes and a catch that good receivers make 9 times out of ten yes.

I think Brady put it pretty much right where he wanted and the receiver got both hands on the ball and dropped it. I loved Welker but you can't take the brutal punishment he did and not have side affects and if you watch Welker toward the end of his career, his difficulty catching balls above his head was one of those side affects imho. Great players make that catch, hell good players make that catch but he came up small at the biggest moment and that more than anything else is why he never won a SB and Edelman won 3.

I'm not looking to start a holy war here, but Welker is headed full speed up the seam, right down the numbers on the field. He is in the middle of the 30 yard number going straight down the field. He has to slow down a fair amount. The pass is on the outside of the numbers, well toward the sideline . . . not in front of him but behind him. The pass is HALFWAY between the numbers and the sideline. From the sideline to the numbers is 6 yards. That is WAY off (like 8 or 9 feet off). Welker had to slow down and turn sideways, completely shifting his momentum, and ended up completely turned around and falling down. I would argue that more than half of receivers don't even track and adjust to that throw and even be able to have a chance at catching that ball. Sure, after all that he gets his palms on the ball, but his balance is so messed up he stood very little chance of catching it. IMO, I don't care how good a receiver someone was, I'd say the chances of catching that ball were about 20% for a HOF level WR.

Welker running at full speed would have had an ample window for Brady to get him the ball. As I said earlier, maybe the safety could have tackled him, maybe he couldn't, but they likely would have had first and goal or pretty close to it.

The last part of your post is a bit melodramatic and overstated. If Asante Samuel caught an easy interception or if David Tyree doesn't catch a ball off of his helmet, Welker would have a ring. If Manningham didn't make a circus catch or if the defense played better on that final drive, Welker would have 2 rings. Jump ahead to the Edelman era. If the Seahawks or Falcons ran the ball LITERALLY only one more time, then NE most likely loses both of those games. The point being, hanging wins and losses on a WR when there were any number of plays that impacted the game that had nothing to do with them at all seems silly. Both Welker or Edelman were involved in 5% of the plays in the game overall. So to me suggesting one played big and one played small and that's why one has 3 rings and one has none is just hyberbole.

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17 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

I'm not looking to start a holy war here, but Welker is headed full speed up the seam, right down the numbers on the field. He is in the middle of the 30 yard number going straight down the field. He has to slow down a fair amount. The pass is on the outside of the numbers, well toward the sideline . . . not in front of him but behind him. The pass is HALFWAY between the numbers and the sideline. From the sideline to the numbers is 6 yards. That is WAY off (like 8 or 9 feet off). Welker had to slow down and turn sideways, completely shifting his momentum, and ended up completely turned around and falling down. I would argue that more than half of receivers don't even track and adjust to that throw and even be able to have a chance at catching that ball. Sure, after all that he gets his palms on the ball, but his balance is so messed up he stood very little chance of catching it. IMO, I don't care how good a receiver someone was, I'd say the chances of catching that ball were about 20% for a HOF level WR.

Welker running at full speed would have had an ample window for Brady to get him the ball. As I said earlier, maybe the safety could have tackled him, maybe he couldn't, but they likely would have had first and goal or pretty close to it.

The last part of your post is a bit melodramatic and overstated. If Asante Samuel caught an easy interception or if David Tyree doesn't catch a ball off of his helmet, Welker would have a ring. If Manningham didn't make a circus catch or if the defense played better on that final drive, Welker would have 2 rings. Jump ahead to the Edelman era. If the Seahawks or Falcons ran the ball LITERALLY only one more time, then NE most likely loses both of those games. The point being, hanging wins and losses on a WR when there were any number of plays that impacted the game that had nothing to do with them at all seems silly. Both Welker or Edelman were involved in 5% of the plays in the game overall. So to me suggesting one played big and one played small and that's why one has 3 rings and one has none is just hyberbole.

Beg to differ David, the play starts on the 45yd line and Welker is lined up about 3yds to the right of the 40yd marker (in the slot), the defender takes away the middle and Welker has no choice but to work his way diagonally to the left about 3-4 yards.  Less then 10yds down the field he is already turning his head at the 35yd line looking for the ball so the "full speed" description is just silly. As is the straight up the seam claim, he ran diagonally from 3-4yds to the right of the 40yd line marker and went left across the 30yd line marker ending up about a yd left of the marker. The ball was placed (1-2yds inside the 30yd marker) a little further inside of where his momentum had already taken him. It wasn't a very hard catch.

How can Brady ignore the safety AND ignore the fact Welker was working right to left as opposed to left to right or straight down the field. I think the smart play for the qb there is to put it where only his guy can catch it and thats what brady did. Welker got TWO palms on it and yet some want to insist it was a bad ball. I think I have accurately described what the replay shows (clear right to left angle and momentum, ball in both palms, dropped) We will have to agree to disagree.

I didn't mean to be melodramatic regarding why Welker doesn't have a ring and Im not hanging multiple loss's on him. Yes "If Asante Samuel caught an easy interception or if David Tyree doesn't catch a ball off of his helmet, Welker would have a ring" I agree. All I said was had Welker made that catch he would (most likely) have a ring and he has no one to blame but himself for that one play. 

Really just stating the obvious that had he made a catch that was (imho) much easier and more routine than the ones Tyree, Manningham and Edleman made on multiple occasions he would have had a ring. But he didn't and that 1 moment where he didn't catch a ball that he likely catches 8-9 out of 10 times (as would most good recs) cost him his ring. Welker should have a ring, he deserves one, but he more than anyone else is the reason he doesn't have one. 

I feel bad for him, great player, gave us everything but he came up small in a big moment and there is no denying or explaining it away. Its a shame, but it is the truth.
 

Reasonable minds may disagree. 

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Wrong shoulder. Turned him around. Degree of difficulty: 8

Eastern Bloc judges give her a 5.6! That'll sink her chances before the long program!

*gasps from the crowd*

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On 4/16/2021 at 3:22 PM, Anarchy99 said:

CB JC Jackson has officially signed his RFA tender with the team, meaning he will earn $3.38 million this season and become an unrestricted free agent in 2022.

Guess that makes him tradeable now...

I could see BB moving this kid before losing him to free agency.

Maybe in a pkg deal for a real QB.

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